Let me first qualify that though I am a traditional archer I begrudge no one their choice of equipment whether gun, compound, etc. But I just got to thinking a few days ago about something and I wanted to share. Hope this makes sense.
I have watched recently some hunting shows (not bashing here)where guys were shooting rifles and killing animals at extreme yardages. I also watched and read of some folks shooting some animals with compounds at extreme yardages. I began to ask why? Why is there the desire to do that and I had the thought that maybe in some folks minds this is their way of increasing the level of challenge in the area of hunting that they do and the equipment they use.
People develop equipment capable of shooting at these extreme ranges so they are not just using the same stuff and trying to kill an animal at 800 yards; they actually manufacture quality products that allow someone to do this pretty effieciently with a level of practice.
Some would say this is all about just making it easier and I guess that has validity in some cases too but I think that we hunters have an inate need to make things more challenging when we have somewhat mastered a way of doing something.
Then it hit me and when it did it made me sad and glad all at the same time! In all these cases the hunters proximity to the animal pursued gets farther and farther away. Answering the need to increase the level of challenge is moving most hunters farther away from the game they pursue. I am not sure they realize what is happening but it is most certainly happening.
Traditional archery moves you in the exact opposite direction. You go from shooting deer at 200 yards with a rifle to 100 yards with a muzzleloader, to 40 yards with a compound to 20 yards with a recurve, longbow or selfbow.
Stepping back and looking at the big picture we trad archers are moving in the exact opposite direction from most others who hunt; from killing animals that you can barely see with your naked eye to being able to count eyelashes.
Maybe there is a certain satisfaction that comes from shooting an elk at 600 yards; that is one hell of a shot, but I can't imagine it being like an elk bugling in your face at 20 yards. These two things are worlds apart IMHO.
That intimate encounter with the animals we pursue is such a gift and I am so glad that I am getting closer and closer and closer.
You make a lot of sense Todd. I especially like your tolerant tone regarding other hunters and their motives.
I wonder the same things as you. When I'm surfing and come across one of those long-range hunting shows I watch for a few minutes, sort of like eyes being drawn to a train wreck. I see no difference in what they are doing than shooting an inanimate target.
Maybe shooting targets on the range has become boring and they want to up the ante with a target that might move? Maybe they want something more interesting to show their friends than a paper target or tin can with holes in it?
Maybe:
1. They substitute woodsmanship with marksmanship?
2. They have never experienced a close-up encounter with the game they hunt so they don't know what they are missing?
I remember an antelope hunt I was on in WY. I was bowhunting during the rifle season. Some fellows pulled up right in front of my blind (public land) and set up a tripod with a .50 rifle. They were scoping antelope that I could barely see. A wildlife officer checked them out. We saw the officer later that day. He had followed these fellows all day until one of them failed to put on orange when he exited the truck. The officer was so disgusted with their apparent lack of respect for the game they hunted he wanted to write them up for something -- he finally did.
The other day I saw a video of a 12 yr old kid shooting an elk at 1360 yds and I thought the same thing. Pretty impressive shot, but how much cooler would it have been for that kid to close the distance and slip an arrow between his ribs from 15 yds? Distance makes things less personal, if that's what you're into, great, but it ain't for me.
Somewhere I saw a quote. "An archer figures out how to shoot further accurately, a bowhunter figures out how to get as close as possible to ensure his accuracy".
It's mostly due to the fact that it's easier to fine tune high power shooting skills than it is to fine tune hunting skills. As people regress in their skills of pursuing game they improve in other areas to compensate.
Personally I'd rather be a hunter than a shooter...because at that distance there is no hunt involved!
To each his own.
I realize my hunting knowledge is very isolated - I haven't hunted outside NY State and 99% has been within a few miles of my home. Locally the whitetail are the perfect quarry for traditional bows. They hang around in thick cover during the day.
Out of curiosity I did some calculations years ago comparing how many square feet a hunter "controls" with various weapons: a traditional bow of 25 yards, a slug shotgun or flintlock with round lead ball of 80 yards, an iron-sighted rifle of 150 yards and a scoped rifle of 250 yards. It works out: 17,670 sq ft, 180,950 sq ft, 636,154 sq ft and 1,767,095 sq ft. So a scoped rifle (even at "only" 250 yard range) has 100 times more area of kill zone vs. a traditional bow. Not hard to see why success is sooooo sweet when it happens with a trad bow.
As disgusting as I think most of those shows are, I will say that I think most of it comes from the fact that these people have to produce. They go to distant places with only a few days to get it done. I also think that they are persuaded to show what their sponsored equipment is capable of. See a 250 yard shot you'll see a range finder and scope commercial in the next two minutes. I wouldn't want to have a hunting show because I don't like other people or companies telling me what I should do. I haven't killed any thing this year and I've only got about 2 weeks left. Nobody wants to see that on tv. Be glad when turkey season gets here though...I've had toms in bow range more than once. Of course then the toms will disappear and I'll have doe's eating out of my hand. Go figure. :)
I know that when I read on Trad Gang that someone just switched to traditional equipment I almost always find myself wishing that they get a deer, elk, turkey.... in their lap because I know they will never be the same again!
A few years ago a buddy and I finally figured out how to fish a local lake. Day in and day out we could fill both livewells if we wanted. That lasted for a few weeks and suddenly neither of us wanted to go there. We switched species and fished a much larger lake without much success for the rest of the year.
The anticipation and challenge were gone and we moved on. Trad bowhunting is something I know I will never master and has so many different avenues to explore that there will always be anticipation and challenge. I love it.
Rob
When will we stop apologizing for equipment and methodology, as if choices don't matter?
If you want to target shoot, then shoot at targets. But shooting at game at 1000 yards is not hunting. Period. Not ONLY is it not hunting, but consequences are real, and they hurt ALL of us as hunters.
On "TV" we get to see the clean kills, or the implied ones. And these guys are supposed to be the "good guys".....but what of the average Joe's out there, trying to replicate what they saw on TV? How many will make that difficult trek across that heavily timbered, cliff faced canyon to follow up what "appears" to be a miss?
It's a shame, that as our equipment gets better, our values and ethics don't. A "poor judgement" hunter, will always be one, regardless of his choice of equipment, except now, at longer ranges, his "misjudgements" are amplified, and not followed up. And the world witnesses.
If we want the same opportunities for our kids, we better start speaking up. Most of this crap and these actions are consequence of our silence...they become legal, because we dare not oppose them for being branded "elite"....or we simply fail to care enough to speak up. A lot has changed in the very recent past with this stuff, and these "advancements" as well as our tolerance of them. Wake up folks.
I am saying this to everyone, not to pick a fight here....and with all respect for your choices....but I for one and fed up. So are many others.
As fathers we preach and teach to our children. As leaders we speak up, even when we know it's not the "politically correct" thing to do. As trad bowhunters, we hold ourselves to a higher standard, both in our challenges, AND our respect for the opportunities and resources we are privileged to enjoy.
Challenge comes with discipline, and respect for the game plays right into our self-control, and our willingness to let the animals win once in a while. What threshold do you place on your own tolerance for this stuff? When it's too late?
Some people go in the woods with the "have to Kill something at all costs" mentality. They dont feel successful unless they kill. The tools they choose make it easier to make that happen.
Personally I dont call shooting Game at long distances hunting rather just shooting.
Unfortuantely we are all lumped in the same category as "hunters".
I feel sorry for the guys who never get a chance to have game so close, they can count eye lashes! Unfortunately they dont know what they are missing. Something tells me some dont care.
I have nothing against the person who wants meat for the freezer and chose whatever weapon in tehir respective seasons but I do feel teh ethics and Values Mark mentions must be paramount in the modern day sportsman.
Regrettably, I feel it lacks in many and I feel its ourresponsibility as Hunters to lead by example and speak up when we see people acting otherwise.
Amen brother ! It all about the challenge of getting close....trying to out smart the animal and make a good shot !
this makes me think of fishing on the river. there are those few days where you cant stop from hooking up. there are two kinds of people. some that will work that hole all day long and see how many they can catch, and others that get bored with that well known hole and decide to lean something new while the bite is on.
Not to play Devil's Advocate, but my dad was a rifle instructor in the USMC and I grew up "tinkering" with some long range rifle shooting. My dad shot some VERY long range stuff. For those who become proficient at long range rifle shooting, there is a lot of skill involved as opposed to random luck created by "gadgets". When my dad was alive, I shot a couple nice whitetails in the Texas Hill Country at around 400 yards with him by my side. While 400 yards with a .30 cal. is no big deal to some experienced rifle shooters, a really nice 8pt that I shot at 340 yards, prone position with my dad sprawled out next to me on the Texas Hill rocks, using my binoculars as a rest, remains among my greatest hunting memory with my dad. I'm also very proud of the shot. It was a product of a lifetime of practice, not a fluke created by gadgets. Again, just playing Devils Advocate.
Compared to hunting within pouncing distance with stickbows, long range shooting of game is akin to being outside their world, shooting in.
I know what it takes to hit a animal at 500 with a rifle, practice shooting your rifle. then practice by shooting in real life hunting situations.
I know what it takes to hit a animal at 20 with a long bow, practice shooting your bow, practice getting within 20, then practice in real life hunting situations.
the second of the two in rifle hunting is hard.
all three in bow hunting are really hard
http://vimeo.com/58796938
This video does the best job I have seen in explaining it.
Keb, That's good stuff right there!!
It's no longer about that kill, while that's are main goal to collect trophies, you get a wild animal on his turff in spitting distance you won no matter the outcome. I did not harvest an animal this year, but had encounters I can not explain, 150 inch deer at 5 yards on the ground no blind eye level for over 5 minutes. I was looking into this deers eyes. I would have never set up like that with any other weapon, to get that close or have that encounter.
If we wanted a body count non of us would be on here!!!!
I've been target shooting all my life. I started out in summer camp shooting fiberglass longbows, switched to guns and rifles after I out grew summer camp. I'm almost 40 now, I've never gone out hunting, I've been perfectly happy target shooting. I didn't have anything against hunting, just never had the urge to go shoot wildlife, just didn't see much sport in it. Sure there is challenge in hitting a kill shot from great distance, but I don't look down on any that think difirently than I do. This year I got to talking to a friend about trad bowhunting and getting up close and personal with something I've spotted, and stalked appealed to me. Here I am about a month later, I've got a bow. I've had my nose buried in forums and articles learning everything I can about stance, form, arrows, and feral pigs, and I'm hoping to get my first hog this year. I still have a lot of work ahead of me. Seems as tho the lessons I got on the bow have stuck with me over the years, of that I'm glad. There's sport in stalking within 20 yards and taking game, not to mention the tasty sustenance that it provides, truly a series of challenges to overcome! Those challenges are the hunt for me, with out them it's still just target practice IMHO.
It has been enjoyable to read others perspectives on this subject and in some ways it proved out what I thought about challenges.(Having been a fishing guide and tournament bass fisherman I can especially relate to what Rob W said. Finding them was the challenge!)
What follows will be my attempt to explain and thus answer Mark Bakers post and in your words - not trying to pick a fight. I see nothing in my post that apologizes for equipment and methods. I think my post actually highlights that principle very clearly. This being a traditional bowsite I chose to state the context in which my revelation came, which is the only reason I mentioned the TV shows, rifles, etc. I just had never seen it from that perspective before and my purpose for the post was to hopefully encourage those who have taken the traditional journey to stick with it and appreciate it BECAUSE the choice of our equipment produces by necessity the chance of close encounters and that is far better IMHO than a kill at any other yardage no matter how far but especially at extreme ranges.
Yet, I am not ignorant of the reality that many folks do not see it my way and there is sometimes a very good reason for that. I will not walk up to a man who just shot an animal at 400 yards and tell him, "That's not hunting!" I may however say this, "You think that's a rush? Crawl up to 20 yards and see if you can keep your heart in your chest!" The reason why is that it may be someone like Mojostick who shot a deer at what we call extreme yardages but I think it is obvious when you read his post that doing it on the side of his father was what made it special. Heck, I can still smell the gumbo when I think back to my dad taking me, my brothers and sister duck hunting. We could have been shooting slingshots for all I cared - what mattered was that I was with my dad. Your comment about fathers handing this down Mark, touches me more deeply than you know.
Where I live and hunt it is not even possible to shoot a deer at 1000 yards even if you had the rifle to do it so I understand you guys out west are the ones that actually see this stuff so its personal for you and I for one appreciate passion. I cannot count the times on my lease in Mississippi that I would come out from a hunt and see a man in a truck, parked on the side of a public road, (my leased property was both sides of that road) and he would have a young man, presumably a son or grandson in the truck with him. They would be wearing hunters orange and have a rifle leaning on the seat waiting for the dogs to come off my property. To that young man, that will be at least part of his defintion of "hunting" and because he was with his father or grandfather there is probably not a whole lot I could say to change his mind. I wonder if he couldn't sleep the night before just like me when my dad said, "Tomorrow we are going hunting."
Many of us come to this traditional archery thing in different ways. I had no one showing me, telling me or suggesting to me a recurve or longbow. I was on the ground with a compound and on 2 occasions had bucks under 20 yards and having to breakover and line up the pins on my compound prevented me from taking either of those deer. I thought that if I would have had a recurve I could have killed them both because I could get the shot off quicker. My introduction came out of a want to be a more successful hunter when given a chance like that. I did not have some purist philosophy suddenly break forth in my pysche. For whatever reason, I am just thankful, I don't know how else to say it because I could have gone down a different road and not have experienced the things I have had the privilege to, in this, the only life I have to live.
I believe the increase in participation in traditional archery that we see comes in many ways, shapes and forms and a need to increase the challenge is to many THE reason they pick up a recurve or longbow. I hope to be discerning enough to say the right thing at the right time to encourage someone to take the ride of his life that is Traditional Archery!
Todd, I don't think you we're apologizing, but maybe mark is right, we are too tolerant of long range killing. Myself included. Shooting an animal from half a mile away isn't hunting, it's killing. Sure, it takes skill, but not hunting skill. maybe we should be more outraged. I don't know exactly where the line between hunting and killing is, but I've seen a few videos recently that definitely cross it.
Hunting is supposed to be fun. Killing an animal is not necessary to feed our families and hasn't been for at least a couple generations. I believe people should hunt whatever way gives them the most enjoyment within the law.
I support the rights of any hunter regardless of chosen weapon. That said I have not killed a big game animal with anything other than a home made stick bow in 10 years.
Remember that what we do is not for everyone. The very old and the very young have a difficult time participating. The more hunters that participate the more licenses are sold and more money goes to the states to manage herds. The TV shows bring more money to the sport and they have had a positive impact on game management and the hunting economy. When more money goes into the economy from hunting the hunting lobby has more power to see that our rights are protected. We should all stick together. Morals and ethics are personal, laws are in place to protect game. I think belittling another's choice of hardware drives a wedge into our power to protect our right to hunt.
Let me tell you about my hunting season. I killed only one doe this year. In years passed I generally average about 5 deer all with a stick bow. I spent most of my season hunting with my two younger daughters 11 &14 years old. They both killed their first buck on my land this year with guns. I consider this my best season yet! Between my brother and I we have gotten 8 friends and relatives' kids their first deer on our land with guns. I get just as fired up watching a kid kill a doe and coaching them through it as I get killing a P&Y by myself.
What we do is harder. Some folks don't have the time and ability to do it but I believe we need them all in the woods to preserve our heritage and right to hunt.
Bonner
To each his own.
Good article in the latest F&S. In the story: "The new Long Range" Petzal asks a range officer what percentage of the general public can hit a deer size target reliably at 300 yds, never mind 400. "He smiled, held up his thumb and middle finger joined to form a zero. You might want to think about that."
What we see on the tube is ALWAYS edited.
I personally agree with what most have said. Even when i was a gun hunter, i felt that i had to be with in 200 yds to shoot the animal. i chose this distance because i felt that it gave the animal time to spook or scent me or move...ive never understood the want of a long range hunt. as a hunter i choose to be up close and personal with my quarry, the more i mess up the more i learn, the sweeter the success of hunt is. i guess i choose to hunt animals rather than snipe them as if i was in the army.
Mojostick, i think that is a very cool memory with your dad. if i may share i also have a fond memory with my dad only we were at much shorter ranges and with smooth bore shotguns..needless to say even though i missed a really nice deer, i learned a lot lessons that day because we were hunting close ranges (no less than 50 yards). theres a sort of responsibilty that goes with how we hunt and i too am planning on raising my daughter with ethics and woodsmanship and to pass along the knowledge because it was passed on to me from my father from his father and so on.
My first hunting experience, I shot from a single-shot rifle handed to me hastily as I was the only one in the right position to take the shot. The doe dropped at 240 yards and never got up. The year after that, I shot at and missed a bear at 50 yards. Not because I couldn't shoot, but because I had stalked it for over an hour uphill and I was pretty much pumped out and could hardly breathe, let alone breathe quietly! I realized I needed to work on my fitness level!
Then last year, I shot a Moose at 40 yards and dropped it right there. Well actually it rolled down a steep hill, but that's another story. This is one that I had called for almost a whole day. This moose though, gave me confidence that I could actually get pretty close to an animal. And I thought to myself, why not try with a bow?
I told myself that I will give myself a year of training with a bow, and so here I am, sucking up as much information as possible. I have a borrowed bow, a 40lb Browning takedown recurve. Some arrows that spined at 60-65 lbs but somehow shoot great out of the bow, and I'm about to order shafts and feathers etc to make my own fine-tuned set.
If I can get good at it, and I really don't know what "good" is yet, I will hunt in 2014 with this bow. If not, I'll pick up my rifle, take out the scope and go iron and give that a go.
I'm really enjoying archery though. Its something I can do in my backyard and with my children. Right now, I can put 6 arrows in an 8.5 x 11 sheet of paper from 11 yards (the width of my backyard, unfortunately) quite consistently. I know I need to practice more at longer distances, but I'm confident that with practice I will get better.
Hopefully, sometime around October this year, I can report back with my first bow harvest. Wish me luck on my journey! ;-)
A friend of mine calls it the "gotta get one syndrome".......for some there is no cure.
My personal opinion on a long range kill is that it is damn fine shooting...but it is not hunting. Again, it's just my opinion, nothing more