Hello Gang! First, let me say how much I enjoy this forum and the way everyone shares their knowledge. I have lurked for quite a while; absorbing as much info as I can and have learned quite a bit...and I thank you. I am trying to grasp how arrow spine works and have been playing around with a spine calculator. I guess my question is how do you shoot heavier heads and keep everything spined correctly or are most of you not too concerned with what the calculator says?
For example..I am shooting a Bear AuSable, 64", 60# @ 28" and I draw 30". I am shooting Heritage 250 cut to 31", 4x4 feathers and standard inserts with a 16 strand D97 flemish twist string. With this setup the calculator suggests a 125gr point. Which fly great, but what if I want a heavier point with more FOC? Do I need a new arrow setup?
I have tried heavier points which makes the bow quieter, but I can see where the arrow leaves the bow with a bit of fish tailing. I'd like a heavier FOC with arrows that fly like darts...suggestions are welcome. Thanks.
Yep...you'll need a stiffer arrow to handle the point weight. Since you draw to 30"s then the bow is more like #66....plus a heavy point you'll need a pretty stiff arrow.
That's the beauty of the spine calculator. Once you know the bows numbers you build what ever arrow set up you like, just hit that number. Heavy head, heavy spine.
Are you using stu miller's dynamic spine calculator? I find that one is the best. It seems to do a good job compensating for a lot of different factors, and has been really accurate for me. Google it.
Ive used Stu's calculator and have found it to be accurate and effective in shaft selection and head weight.
Thanks for the replies. I was using 3 Rivers but will try Stu's to see how close they are.
I rate Stu's Calculator one of the greatest new tools in archery for me. I don't start setting up any new bow or change in arrow dynamics without gaming with the calculator.
I can vary a carbon shaft from 600, 500 or 400 spine by simply varying the different weights of broadheads and inserts. Usually I'm at the 500's.
QuoteOriginally posted by longbow fanatic 1:
Ive used Stu's calculator and have found it to be accurate and effective in shaft selection and head weight.
Same here
I have found that Stu's calculator can be a bit off. You need to enter a bow and arrow setup into the calculator that you know is right (by other tuning methods) and then set the "personal form facor" to make them match.
Once that is done, you can enter just about any other arrow and come out with a result that is real close to what you need.
As far as changing point weight goes, you will need to change the shaft length to make the spine stay correct. If you go up in point weight, you will need to shorten the shaft length and if you go down in point weight you will need to lengthen the shaft length.
Bisch
Stu's calculator is a great tool. It does give me some answers that surprise me once in awhile.
I just wish it would work on my I pad and I phone. I am not allowed to shoot in my backyard and there is no "hot spot" at the range.
If you look at the top of the 3 Rivers calculator you will see it gives credit to Stu Miller...many seem to miss the notation near the bottom about a personal form factor...like any tool it needs to be used with discretion...the 3 Rivers version works with my Android tablet
DDave
QuoteOriginally posted by M60gunner:
Stu's calculator is a great tool. It does give me some answers that surprise me once in awhile.
I just wish it would work on my I pad and I phone. I am not allowed to shoot in my backyard and there is no "hot spot" at the range.
Post above mentioned it, but you can use the 3Rivers site to take advantage of the calculator on an apple device
Not perfect but a lot better than those charts.
You may consider giving a 200 gn point a go at your current 31" arrow length.
Provided the 200 gn point was to work, there would be a significant increase in FOC, yet not enough to improve penetration.
A viable option may be:
Victory HV300...~31"s...100 gn insert...225 gn pt...~568 total..~27% EFOC
Friend is onto something. I've spent a lot of time recently shooting the V Force HV. This is the first time I've done any shooting with a setup that was EFOC. All I can say is wow!
Oh! Forgot to mention, I'm a Stu Miller calculator junkie. As said above, get your personal form factor adjusted and it is stunningly accurate (for me at least).
The personal form number has always had me a bit confused. Using aluminum arrows, when having someone to watch to make sure that I am really paying attention to my own form and then applying the Miller formula, I find that my pf number is different with different bows and it does not match the spine requirements in the listed generic bows. If I were to use one bow that I have as my standard, my pf number would be a minus 4, but on another bow it would be a plus 8, and that is adding the center shot variance accurately as well. One other minor point, my 1918 aluminums do not match the stated weight on the Miller chart. My grain scales are accurate. Still, it is a fun thing to play with.
It sounds like your arrow setup is really shooting good and sounds right to me as far as having the right spined arrow for the bow. If you wanted to move up in point weight the only way you could do it with your draw weight and draw length would be to go to a 300 spine shaft or the CX Heritage 350's.
I appreciate all the responses. I will be playing around a bit more with the calculator too see what I can come up with...this is all new to me. The learning curve is steep as I have absent from traditional archery for about 12 years and now returning to it. I forgot how much I enjoy shooting!
With regards to the bow I am shooting...a buddy of mine is letting me borrow it as he prefers his compound. So, admittedly I will say, I believe I am a little over-bowed. I believe I should be somewhere in the low 50's lb range for real comfortable shooting. I shoot til I am almost exhausted and my groupings really spread out...then I know I've shot too long. But, I do enjoy it so much! Thanks again for all the advice.
Approximately 17#s under spine is working quite well for me on front loaded carbons.
Note: have successfully tuned EFOC and Ultra EFOC arrows utilizing Carbon Express, Beman, Gold Tip and Victory....did not maintain records of the AD Trads.
Have discussed the phenomena with Stu in the past. He is quite aware of it, yet is unable to explain this occurrence.
Friend, that is quite interesting. I have been shooting 300grn field points as I wanted a heavy FOC and they did ok. When I bare shafted that setup those arrows really kicked off the shelf and shot very low...it is amazing how much the fletching works to stabilize an arrow! I could probably get away with heavier points and am considering playing around with 4x5" fletching setup as well...the variables become endless! Did you ever try bare shaft tuning your above-mentioned setups? I am curious how those flew...
Calculators are great to get you in the ballpark, but in my experience you need to tune from there unless you get lucky. Worth it though unless you have a lot of different arrows to play with since it saves time and money by getting you close before you start the tuning process. I would never trust a calculator to produce a perfect setup right out of the gate, too many shooter variables involved.
Mud_Slide_Slim......
All were bareshaft tuned from 3 to 40 yards
BH's tuned from 3 to 40 yards...
Often times, forego the bareshaft tuning and just tune arrows with BH's.
Typically, when I bareshaft tune beyond 30 yards, the BH tipped shafts require no adjustment. If there is a little left or right consistent marking, only slight adjustment to the brace will dial it in. My bare shafting then, is even better than what I could achieve on my own.
Have paper tune verified on three different set-ups and all shot bullet holes.
Please attempt to keep in mind that the beauty of the traditional way is its quite individualistic nature. My results should not be taken as a given to be universally experienced by others.
QuoteOriginally posted by Mud_Slide_Slim:
Hello Gang! First, let me say how much I enjoy this forum and the way everyone shares their knowledge. I have lurked for quite a while; absorbing as much info as I can and have learned quite a bit...and I thank you. I am trying to grasp how arrow spine works and have been playing around with a spine calculator. I guess my question is how do you shoot heavier heads and keep everything spined correctly or are most of you not too concerned with what the calculator says?
For example..I am shooting a Bear AuSable, 64", 60# @ 28" and I draw 30". I am shooting Heritage 250 cut to 31", 4x4 feathers and standard inserts with a 16 strand D97 flemish twist string. With this setup the calculator suggests a 125gr point. Which fly great, but what if I want a heavier point with more FOC? Do I need a new arrow setup?
I have tried heavier points which makes the bow quieter, but I can see where the arrow leaves the bow with a bit of fish tailing. I'd like a heavier FOC with arrows that fly like darts...suggestions are welcome. Thanks.
welcome to trad gang.
the static and dynamic spine values for carbon shafting are vastly different, unlike alums or woods. carbon spine charts are static readings, and there's a reason why unlike all other shaft materials, a specific carbon shaft will have a large range of weight uses specified ... take even that with a few grains of salt. most carbon static spine ratings are too stiff for how they will perform dynamically.
LOTS hasta do with YOU, the archer, too, and how you shoot.
i don't use nor like "spine calculators". there are more than a few factors they can never take into consideration, and can lead you far astray from where you should be headed.
good luck.
Ok...So the calculator is a good starting point but I will have to do my own testing to see what is really going on. Got it. I suppose that's what the Personal Form part of the calculator comes into play...I didn't understand what it was asking for and just left it at zero. I am really interested in learning more on bare shaft tuning. At this point, I can't imagine shooting bullet holes with bare shafts at 30 yards...let alone 3! I have more playing around to do, but that is part of the fun!
Thanks again...
Bill-