Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Old Gobbler 1 on January 12, 2014, 09:54:00 AM
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Super-slow motion video reveals an incredible amount of arrow bending and arching after release better known as "archer`s paradox". My question is: How can we expect to get an accurate "paper- tune" with so much arrow movement, yards after the arrow has left the shelf?
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Hmmmm...Good question.
Another one I've always had (not to infringe on your thread and question) is how is the amount of cant one typically shoots with accounted for when paper tuning? For example, if you held a bow perfectly vertical and saw tail left on paper, wouldn't you see tail high and left with a cant?
I don't paper tune. Bare shaft and eyeball it.
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Make it even weirder.
After about 4 feet the arrow starts to spin if you have helical fletching of any degree.
If your nock point is too high or low you get porpoising, if you have a bad release or wrong spine you get fish tailing, but if that arrow starts spinning, does the porpoise or fishtail spin too ?
How can you tell which it is if it is spinning ?
ChuckC
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Originally posted by jsweka:
Hmmmm...Good question.
Another one I've always had (not to infringe on your thread and question) is how is the amount of cant one typically shoots with accounted for when paper tuning? For example, if you held a bow perfectly vertical and saw tail left on paper, wouldn't you see tail high and left with a cant?
Yep, That's why I hold the bow vertical when I tune.
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Up close paper tuning can show you how bad your spine and nock point is off but after your arrow is out a little ways the arrow movement has settled down somewhat.I like bare shafting to see how my arrow performs and adjust it from there.Some will argue that there is no need to bare shaft wood arrows.If they were to strip the feathers from their shafts and see them fly wildly they would be surprised.Fletchings can correct some problems of flight but when your arrow comes off your bow badly the first thing you are already off target.Its the same with a bad release you are already off target when your arrow comes off your bow.
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6 AND 12 feet to paper-tune for me. Then broadheads to check everything at 15-20 yards. I've used this successfully with all kinds of bows for a very long time.
Of course I select shafts and terminal tackle that should work before I shoot the arrow.
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I would assume that the tight, quick oscillations seen in slow motion video denotes the "water moccasin" flight of a better tuned arrow that stabilizes quickly, while a less tuned shaft would have larger oscillations requiring more time therefore greater distance covered and show better on paper. The caveat being finding the correct distance assuming the closer the better. On MBB video, rod Jenkins paper tunes about three feet from the bow. Just a theory.
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Originally posted by Bowwild:
6 AND 12 feet to paper-tune for me. Then broadheads to check everything at 15-20 yards. I've used this successfully with all kinds of bows for a very long time.
Of course I select shafts and terminal tackle that should work before I shoot the arrow.
That is pretty much exactly what I do^^^.
Bisch
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Originally posted by jsweka:
I don't paper tune. Bare shaft and eyeball it.
This is how I do it and just about everybody I know around here does it. I then follow it up by shooting broadheads which will confirm your results. Works well to have a second set of eyes preferably behind you and on a slightly higher viewing plane to watch your arrow flight so you can concentrate on proper form and not peeking at the arrow
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Some swear by paper tuning, some don't. I'm in the second camp and haven't used paper for years. I go right to bare shaft tuning.
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For those that don't like to paper tune, what do you do about wood arrows? I've heard that bareshafting wood can result in some broken shafts.
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yep can break shafts when bareshafting with wood....as they are oscillating when they hit target.
I work up what is in general area of spine using static charts and Stu's Calculator and opt for slightly weaker than I expect...that way if wrong I can shorten arrow a 1/4" at a time until it flies right.....
I build the arrows and shoot them...short range first and then long range (40 yds for me). if there is no wind and they fly where I am aiming with the only discrepancy being my release or hold...then I dont worry too much.
I dont stress FPS or every wiggle as much as quite a few here and other forums....I personally dont think our traditional bows are as picky and sensitive to EXACT arrow characteristics as many claim...Agree the compound (modern) bow requires this level as all the rests and such make tuning a requirement when shooting short, small diameter, small vanes with release at long distances on a very light string at high speeds....but for our traditional bows I dont buy it.
I have a pretty good idea what should work based on bow, arrow, etc....and go stiffer or weaker based on a couple shooting sessions. I choose to not complicate my love of archery and bowhunting with traditional or selfbows....and dont shoot over 20 yards...and am fine with that limitation.
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I don't understand bare shaft tuning. If you're never going to shoot an unfletched arrow, why tune without feathers. Seems to me like you should just tune with fletched arrows. If THEY fly right who cares what happens with other combinations (no fletch, heavier tip, longer arrow, etc.)?
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If you bare shaft and get it flying right your feathers will only make it fly better.If your shaft spine is wrong and it comes off your bow wildly without feathers it will still come off your bow wildly with feathers at first till the feathers start correcting its path but it going in the wrong direction before its corrected.As far as bare shafting wood shafts and them breaking.If you start up close bare shafting your shaft is not going to it the target as bad as it would as when you are at a distance.Bare shaft close and start adjusting your shaft then start backing up and adjust till it flys good.
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Originally posted by Dave Worden:
If you're never going to shoot an unfletched arrow, why tune without feathers.
The more your fletchings have to work to correct an incorrect spine, the faster the arrow will slow down in flight resulting in degraded performance. I like to think that shooting an untuned arrow is like tying an anchor to it. Of course, you could get lucky and maybe your arrow is perfect for you and your bow. If you are a gambler, then maybe this is for you. :)
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Brock, I like your style.
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Bare shaft tuning is very helpful and when you do it enough it becomes very easy to do. It's especially beneficial when you step outside the box with longer shaft, heavier or lighter shafts, point weights to match new broadheads, etc. I don't do paper tune though.
It's similar to why we tune the bow to be the quietest it can be before adding silencers and other silencing things to it.
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Creekwood you got it right.If you dont care about where your arrows hit then just dont tune.If you want the very best in accuracy then tune them.If your arrows are not the exact same then none will hit in the same spot even if you shoot the exact same way perfectly on each arrow.I guess I am a perfectionist and I want everything to be perfect.If you are not a good shooter then tuning your arrows will make a big difference to you.It made one big gigantic difference to my shooting after I learned bare shaft and paper tuning.
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I'm with snapper2d. If I miss I want it to be me, not my equipment. I'm sure it would drive me crazy wondering if my equipment was going to let me down.
I remember a 2bl 20 gauge with a bad firing pin. That gun decided when it would fire. Just about ruined me in a single dove hunt!
I also recall an outfit I hunted mulies with in 1977. My arrows planed terrible (I didn't know about tuning then). I thought it was the broadhead's fault. I like to think there would be a different outcome on a certain mule deer buck at treeline near Buffalo Park (above Steamboat Springs) had I been an arrow tuner back then.
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It's important to me to have things right with my gear, I don't really care what others do. Besides, my way is certainly not the only way to get a tuned bow. That said, once you get the hang of it bare shaft tuning it's so easy that it...well it's easy.
I'm assuming we agree that the point of fletching is to correct an improper balance between spine, shaft length, point weight, characteristics of the bow, and the shooters form. Tuning with bare shafts balances the system almost completely, add feathers and you get a much more stable and forgiving system, especially when you stick a broadhead on the front. No doubt it's more difficult to do with woodies, but then I remember I used to shoot all my woodies and select the ones that consistently shot the best with broadheads and hit the same spot as my field points. Same goal, much less efficient process. Much as I love wooden arrows, they are not as consistent and don't lend themselves as well to precise tuning as carbon or aluminum, at least not in my experience. A bit more trial and error with woodies, but then woodies are a labor of love anyway.
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I bare shaft through paper til i get a perfect bullet then a fletched arrow through paper for a perfect billet with 3 neat fletch tears. 6ft out too. 30 ft.
Then I will double check a bare shaft with my fletched arrows out to 20-25 yds. BH and field point usually hit right together.
If not its a small amount of tweaking nock point hight or brace hight. To get it dialed in.
An arrow saw is a must
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So is your arrow proper spine if it hits where you are looking at 20 yards but flies pretty much tail left (for right handed shooters)? I've also noticed that targets can straighten out the shafts as they hit and that your release can give you pretty mixed results? I've just gotten to the point that I shoot broadheads all the time now and if they hit where I am looking without crazy flight problems they are good enough. I use 3 four inch feathers and some pretty big Simmons so I thought they were spined properly. SO I decided to test them, I striped off the fletching, replaces my broadhead with a matching field point and shot at a snad bank... about 15 yards down range they take a hard left and nose dive. I tried to resolve this with bareshafting and I came to the conclusion that with the high FOC I am using that I will always get a tail left and down when bareshafting - am I wrong?
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DaveT- Nock kicking left- point heading right means weak spine (for right hand shooter.) Nock high- point heading down means high nock point. Even with EFOC you may be surprised how much you can adjust that tweaking nock pt. and brace ht.
Dan in KS
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Lowering brace height weakens spine and raising it increases spine - is this correct?
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How I remember: lower brace = more power stroke (arrow on string longer). higher brace ht. = less power stroke (arrow off string sooner).
So all other things being equal- technically- lower brace ht. may require stiffer spine. Higher brace may allow weaker spine.
Others may need to correct me. How I think of it though. . .
Dan in KS
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Actually, it's just the opposite. A lower brace height requires a lighter spine because it increases the angle of the arrow away from center as the string approaches the riser.
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KSdan, actually it's the opposite,not because of powerstroke though. It has to do with the angle of departure of the shaft at release.
Since your arrow always points somewhat away from the shelf when viewed from behind,the lower the brace,the more severe the angle is. With a higher brace,the arrow is pointed closer to center. The same as changing center cut on your riser.
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So if my arrows are currently weak I raise the brace height?
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If weak,lower b.h. If stiff raise b.h.
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I am sure open to learning and correction. I hear you guys on angle- but I thought the energy the bow delivered to the shaft had a lot to do with power stroke. If I check fps based on contrasting brace hts I will see a direct correlation. Higher brace is less energy = slower arrow = shaft acts stiffer. Lower brace is increased energy = faster arrow = shaft acts weaker. So- one way to fine-tune a slightly weak shaft is either to increase brace ht or slow the string down (more strands, add another set of silencers, or go to more pliable string material,ie dacron). This is also why you can quiet a bow down this way though you are decreasing some potential performance.
I know the FITA Manual agrees with me on brace ht. adjustment.
Perhaps you guys are suggesting the angle is a stronger variable than the power stroke. I wonder if style of bow has any bearing on this. Has me curious???
Sorry if I messed anyone up
Dan in KS
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no, the low brace height is a longer string,the longer string reduces bow poundage overall.so longer stroke,lower spiner because of lower draw weight.(it will shoot faster however because of the longer stroke) a higher brace hight make for increased draw weight, therefor increase in arrow spine is required ,shorter string, shorter stroke, a bit slower...so,with a given arrow,you simply adjust brace hight up or down to move you poa right or left(for right handed shooters.
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This is brace hieght thing is interesting. I have always believed as Dan has. That the lower brace equals longer power stroke needing stiffer spine. higher brace equals smaller powerstroke and weaker spine needed.
I too would love any brace height gurus that can verify this correct or false.
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I am still watching this. . . :confused:
Review the FITA Manual! If some of you are correct that lower brace height means less energy you need to correct the International Archery community. :)
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I've always moved my arrow impact to the right (weakening shaft) by lowering brace height and stiffening a shaft impacting more left by raising brace height? Am I seeing this wrong? I've already been told the arrows paradox always starts as it bends around the riser.... the longer the string stays in contact with the arrow the more it will initially bend around the riser?
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I suppose on a true center cut bow the opposite might be true?
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I believe what they're trying to say is that even though you have a shorter power stroke,you have more weight initially bending the arrow. But if it works differently with your bow I wouldn't worry.
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Originally posted by DaveT1963:
I've always moved my arrow impact to the right (weakening shaft) by lowering brace height and stiffening a shaft impacting more left by raising brace height? Am I seeing this wrong? I've already been told the arrows paradox always starts as it bends around the riser.... the longer the string stays in contact with the arrow the more it will initially bend around the riser?
Yes. This is how I see it regards brace ht. Been tuning the bows I shoot this way for 3 decades. As noted: perhaps some bow styles react differently though. That would be new to me.
FITA Manual pg 10: "Decrease brace ht- Be careful here as this gives a longer power stroke thus makes the arrow seam weaker. Increase brace ht- Be careful here as this gives shorter power stroke thus makes the arrow seem stiffer."
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For me if the arrow is stiff, raise the brace height, if weak lower brace. Also been doing this for decades.
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On most bows changing the brace enough to shift the spine, does not change the poundage all that much. If one needs a drastic brace change the shaft spine is way off and a different spined shaft would be a better fix. The old rule was that a lighter spined arrow would have a better timed paradox with a lower brace and a stiff arrow would not skid off the shelf and move to the left with a right hand bow as bad with a higher brace.
If we watch carefully, the Howard Hill short shows that initial bend of the arrow at release bends into the bow. This is because the arrow is pointing to the left and resistance of the weight of the arrow is reacting to the forward drive of the bow. As some of the arrow gives and extends beyond the bow, then the arrows shows the outward bend. Well the arrow is still on the string, it has two bends going at once for a time. I know the old rule works the same for today's Hill style bows and wood arrow that are cut to the proper length and the same holds aluminum shafts. With a bow that is cut inside of center and with a lot of shaft beyond the bow, and with a lot of foc, any number of variables can come into play.
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I've just been enjoying my popcorn and watching this one because every time this question has come up the debate has honestly been about 50% defending both sides. I certainly don't know the answer, but obviously somebody's wrong. I would offer a bit of clarification for those having trouble understanding the opposing argument to the "power-strokers". Their point is that arrow spine "is what it is" and lower brace height logically requires the nock to remain on the string slightly longer and release closer to the riser, thereby reducing the "window"(for lack of a better term)that paradox can occur or conversely increasing the amount of bending required for the arrow to get around the riser to a comparable point due to the later release from the string) If this is true a given spine would act stiffer. I have no dog in this fight...my dog is a lover...just ask my leg!
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This has been interesting to me too. Honestly, I never even knew there was a debate! So, I guess I have A LOT to learn.
Thanks for all the thoughts.
Dan in KS
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Ok not trying to start a argument here but, I just looked at page 10 in the FITA manual . It says if you want to increase dynamic spine of an arrow,(make a weak arrow stiffer),lower brace height. If you want to decrease spine(make it bend more as they put it), increase brace height. I don't understand why they are telling you to do it,then telling you to be careful. Of course with a target rig you have more than one option. I haven't been shooting as long as some of you so I'm no expert.
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Stephen- I hope I have conveyed I could be wrong here. I just know since I have been shooting trad- I have fine tuned arrows by increasing brace ht. to take some energy off the arrow. This also showed in chrono fps.
HOWEVER- as far as the FITA manual- I guess it could mean what some of you are saying here: Increasing the brace ht. typically makes the arrow act stiffer- HOWEVER you need to be careful as the power stroke changes which could add a new variable into the equation.
IF THIS IS HOW IT READS: then a bunch of you that corrected me would be accurate. The angle/shelf dynamic is more critical than power stroke- THOUGH the power stroke does need to be considered some.
Conceding to your points here: The view I have had all these years that the issue was power stroke has "some" merit, HOWEVER the bigger concern is what many of you have corrected me on.
Makes sense to me. It also makes sense that various bows will be affected by these variables a bit differently depending on the style/design.
SO much to learn. See- you can teach an old dog new tricks! :)
Dan in KS
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I personally can't shoot good anyway :biglaugh:
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Im more confused now lol.