this is my arrow , for bow of 60 pounds
spine 300
insert 50 grain
field point 250 grain
(http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab99/tragomvuka/g.jpg)
and then I look at these two videos, in which the man has prove that is the same penetration with light and heavy arrows! Which means I'm without the need made this heavy setup
YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4RGcyZ_gJY&feature=youtu.be)
Video 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAfK0sBsZBw)
Please someone explain this to me, until I threw everything in the trash :banghead:
Before I would give that video much credibility I would want to see an average of a larger number of shots...his claim that the bow is quiet seems suspect to me...and I am not sure that penetration with field points tells me anything about penetration with broad heads
DDave
Speed x mass= energy.
Your setup will be more stable and much quieter :thumbsup:
your set up sounds great why worry about others if yours shoots well for you ?
I know Ken, he is a huge advocate of light arrows. He uses a Pinnacle riser and trad tech ILF extreme limbs. He knows the minimum that can be shot from his setup without wrecking it. His basic point is accuracy and reducing point of aim (drop). He shoots the IBO and comes into Minneapolis to win our 3D shoot at Coon Rapids. I have shot that bow of his, it's not the setup for me but works well for him. My bows can't shoot stuff that light without destroying them. His form is very good, not much human error with his shooting, which would only help his theory out.
I like seeing people test on their own to find out for themselves what is true and what is not. Too often we read posts that are stated as fact but are nothing more than repeating what someone else posted and are often opinions and theories not fact.
Testing such things and personal experience is not always perfect due to varying circumstances but it is better than another person's opinion.
The only question I have about the video test is the type of point used. Maybe I missed it but did they all have the same shape and did any have any nicks or blunt spots. That could make a big difference in the phone book test. Personally, I think it was an excellent demonstration and tells me not to worry much about arrow weight.
I don't know that it would make much difference but I would like to know the diameter of the shafts.
his point is if someone can harvest a deer with a 35lb bow using a arrow that's 10gr per # then why can't they use that same arrow out a of a 50lb bow I guess it makes sense but that arrow weight is for the mechanics of the bow also,, I'm not familiar with these new hybrid recurves so who knows.
Does your bow and arrow set-up shoot well for you? If so, why confuse yourself.
Phone book penetration has nothing to do with the real world of carcass penetration. It's great if all you ever plan on killing is a yellow pages.
If you want to know what your setup of broadhead or field point or bodkin and shaft will do to an animal, invest a couple bucks in some ballistic gel. That's what people ho are serious about ballistics(whether firearm, atlatl dart or arrow) use as a standard for comparison.
Sure you can (maybe) shoot cattail reed arrows from your 100# hot-shot composite bow, but you run the risk of shattering the bow because insufficient energy is transferred from the drawn bow to the arrow.
Just start reading all the comments about the video. It will be as clear as mud!
If I had a bow that would shoot 215fps, I would not worry about arrow weight either. I do not own a bow that will do that, so I'll stick with my 10+ggp arrows and high FOC! He is comparing apples to oranges.
At any given speed, with two arrows identical except for weight, the heavier arrow will ALWAYS out-penetrate the lighter arrow (assumed that both arrows are well tuned).
I have a buddy that shoots heavy bows (72#-85#). He shoots very heavy arrows at about the same speeds that my 50# bows shots my 10gpp arrows. His arrows will always out penetrate mine because they are so much heavier.
Also, at 60# it is not going to matter much if you are shooting 8.5gpp or 11gpp. With that high of a draw weight you are going to get good penetration as long as your arrow is well tuned. I shoot 50# at my DL and want all the penetration I can get so I always tune an arrow that is over 10gpp to get a little more weight that will equal a little more penetration for me.
Bisch
let him shoot an ultra-light set up--
http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/
My bow vibrates, even when tuned, until I get close to 10gpp. Of course it's a cheap bow. Bugs me. If you don't like the way they fly drop 60grains off the front and get your FOC back to around 15%. Then you have a hunting arrow that more resembles a target arrow. Hey we all screw up a batch of arrows sometime. All I know is I've seen a lot of hunting shows where light arrows coming out of compounds have lousy penetration. That's enough to convince me. Heck I've got a bent aluminum arrow that on a target penetrates nearly as much a straight one. Don't mean I'll hunt with it.
If YOU are accurate with your setup at hunting ranges don't worry about it. 184 fps is fast for a 660 gr hunting arrow.
Shooting 3D competitively I can see the advantage of speed.
There is no such thing as overkill. Assuming I am not overbowed and can shoot it accurately, I will always take the heavier tackle (both bow draw weight and arrow mass). Nothing wrong with the guys who prefer lighter tackle, this is just my opinion. Shoot what is most effective for you and don't worry about what "they" say.
I'm wondering about arrow and point diameter , if the heavy arrow has a larger diameter that will really effect the penetration test.
God bless, Steve
The testing was pretty apples and apples using the same bow with a nice consistent anchor point. the only thing off was the weight of the bow at his draw. When you put a bow on a hook like that, it's typically 2-3 pounds lighter than actually drawing with your fingers. If you weigh a bow with a wide hook its much more accurate.
check out this drawing.
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Drawings/SasLblimbmovement.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/kirkll/media/Drawings/SasLblimbmovement.jpg.html)
There are not too many traditional bows out there i'd recommend shooting 7.5 gpp arrow out of. The bow isn't going to last to long, and you'd play hell getting them quiet enough to hunt with.
his remarks about shooting a traditional bow with a hooter shooter being worthless made me laugh. using a shooting machine is much more accurate than shooting by hand for testing purposes.
This is a very good test, unfortunately not used trad bow, but I think it is important because we talk about penetration arrow
please - do not post anything about non-trad archery tackle - thank you.
the test I saw was pseudo science--too many generalizations --"about a 1/4 inch...""nearly the same.."right down to rounding down the what the scale reads!!--and with a shooting machine in the next room-he chooses to finger shoot??
IMO the paper tests said it all--the clearly best hole was the light arrow he was tuned to--the others not so much-a small point but it does make a difference
IMO shooting all three into the same phone book compromises the testing--I can see the pages separating on each shot-too many variables for me
as well as shooting into the ballistic jell--after the first shot the medium is compromised-in fact when the camera goes to the rear of the target you can see the multiple fractures--
nit picking-maybe! but none the less variables!
and why not broadhead tests? isn't that what counts?
IMO the specs you list for your setup are extremely lethal! and over thinking this while applying this pseudo science is only unnecessary worry--
IMO your set up is excellent -go kill something!!
good luck!
I really suspect the "test" showing that a light arrow penetrates as well as a heavy arrow. Momentum of an arrow (mass x velocity)is more important than energy (mass x velocity-squared). With energy, small changes in velocity will make great differences in energy. But, arrows kill by penetration and not mass shock and tissue destruction as bullets do. In archery, momentum will be more influenced by the mass of the arrow since differences in velocity between a light and heavy arrow will not be as great as the differences in mass could be.
I do not think animals really care how fast the arrow goes through them. bowfanatik I think your set up is good go hunting.
my setup is very very good , i post this because .....if is true that light arrow have same penetration as heavy , well in that case i will have more speed ! But hrono say that , i already have plenty of speed so i am ok . In past 3 years i learned how to tune my bow , so i am fine thanks guys . But all this is interesting to read
Most of us hunt for game that are fairly easy to shoot thru, under normal (good) circumstances, so lighter or heavier may be a moot point, especially with heavier bows.
Heavier / larger game take more to penetrate. What that number is is important at that time (when hunting bigger / tougher game), but not as much for hunting deer or small game.
Ashby's tests, while not necessarily perfect, used a lot more shot numbers and used broadheads and "critter matrix", that is, the stuff we shoot thru. I have faith in what those tests show. But, what is it that they show ?
Sorry to all those that do their own testing, but the next time I go phone book hunting, or ballistic gel hunting, or plywood hunting I will look up your results.
Shoot what you want, tune it right so they fly well, and don't worry so much about it.
ChuckC
I don't really worry about heavy or light...I tune my arrows and use whichever shoots the best. But since we are discussing this, I thought I would throw this in for something to think about. I didn't write this so I have no argument either way. Here ya go:
What do an arrow and a missile have in common? The answer lies in "spinning mass" The greater the mass the greater the angular inertia.
To compensate for yaw, pitch and roll a missile's orientation with respect to external co-ordinates is maintained by a gyroscope. Instead of tipping over it moves forward in a circular motion, in a fixed direction given by its spin axis.
Rotational Inertia is the rotational counterpart of Newton's First Law of motion, "An object will continue to spin in a given direction unless acted upon by an external unbalanced torque."
In a missile, if an unbalanced force is applied the gyro will begin to move the missile at right angles to the force. This motion is called precession.
When a football flies through the air its natural tendency is to tumble (rotate end over end) icreasing air resistance.
If the thrower puts spin on the ball (hence giving the ball angular momentum) the ball behaves much like a missile with a gyro and an arrow with feathers does that even better, giving it spin, hence keeping its point axis always in the direction of motion, reducing resistance and increasing the distance travelled.
Hence, the Turks shooting toothpicks have never been equalled pound for pound.
In an arrow this angular momentum caused by spin pushed by the Ek of the bow is critical in its path through the atmosphere and the deer's flesh.
A heavy arrow has greater angular inertia, therefore requiring greater Ek from the bow. It follows then that a lighter arrow with the same Ek, out of the same bow will have a much higher angular momentum and hence will travel farther and straighter.
It also follows that the use of large feathers create a tremendous amount of drag and this creates an even greater increase in angular inertia. Thus requiring heavy poundage to create equivalent forward motion.
The earth spinning on its axis acts much like a 'gyro'. The point, N-axis always aims at Polaris, inspite of the much heavier gravitational pull of the Sun, the moon and all the other celestial bodies in the universe. Unlike very stiff carbon shafts the slight precession of the earth is caused by the unequal distribution of mass.
A heavy arrow will hit with a higher force but much more Ek is necessary to drive its rotational momemtum. Whereas, a very LIGHT STIFF arrow with equal Ek will fly better, do to its much higher angular momentum and can get the job done better with even less poundage. Not to mention the fact that less poundage equates to a better bowman. As long as we are not hunting Tyrannosaurs.
Arrows are not bullets and do not kill by expansion and crushing. It takes very little force for a two blade titanium broadhead with molecularly sharp edges to go through flesh.
In Physics this problem requires many and varied formulae to prove, some 18 altogether.
The basic one's being.
Ek = 1/2mXvsquared (linear) Ek(rotational) = 1/2I(w)squared (angular)
Shoot what ever gives you the most confidence.
I like a heavy arrow 750 grains out of a 63# longbow. I like how quiet it is. i love the penetration i get and most important i love how i can see my slow moving arrows in flight and always know exactly where i hit the animals.
one thing i did notice about the part 2 video. he shoots the heavy arrows at the outter edges of the balistic gel and you can see the whole chunck move and absorb energy. then he shoots the kight arrow dead center and the balistic gel doesnt move at all and doesnt rob any energy from the light arrow.
Its good that there are people that like all set ups. For me I will most definetly be sticking with my heavy set up. been shooting it for alot of years and love it.
All 3 of those arrows will kill anything on this continent period. I don't even know how much my arrows weigh. I paper tune my arrows with different weight tips and use whichever shoots the best. I've used wood...pass thru...carbon...pass thru...aluminum...pass thru. Never weighed any of them.
QuoteOriginally posted by bowfanatik:
i post this because .....if is true that light arrow have same penetration as heavy
That will only be true if you gain enough speed to make up the difference! In his video he went from 188fps to 214fps to get equal penetration from the light arrow.
Bisch
Dr. Ashby did LOTS of testing on REAL ANIMALS. The defense rests. It's a free country, he should shoot whatever setup he thinks is best.
"184 fps is fast for a 660 gr hunting arrow"
Man I wish I had the shoulders for that set up.... Don't know of much that could stand up to that!!!
Which hits hardest, a baseball thrown as hard as possible or a tennis ball thrown hard possible?
That guy also uses a mechanical Broadhead out of his traditional bow. I'll stick with a heavy arrow and fixed blade Broadhead.
"The earth spinning on its axis acts much like a 'gyro'. The point, N-axis always aims at Polaris, inspite of the much heavier gravitational pull of the Sun, the moon and all the other celestial bodies in the universe. Unlike very stiff carbon shafts the slight precession of the earth is caused by the unequal distribution of mass. "
HOLY CROW!!! pull up yer boots!!!LOL!!!
WOW!!that is some heavy stuff!!right there!!
...
:deadhorse:
Sometimes it's best to ignore the internet. This post being the exception. :)
No offense Butch but comparing a tennis ball and baseball is like comparing an apple to an orange. For one, a tennis ball is hollow.
I agree bamboo, that is some heavy stuff haha. Just something to think about..
What I have noticed though, is that many trad shooters are very narrow minded when it comes to this subject. I've never seen a post in which someone is advocating heavy arrows and people start saying "lights the only way to go...blah blah blah". I give the guy credit. There are the "you need 800gr arrows to kill a whitetail" which is absolutely ridiculous. Both sides have good arguments supporting their stance. I guess I'm in the middle. Your bow will tell you what works best. I shoot 30" Carbon Tech Panthers with 175gr heads. I use that weight head because that's what puts a perfect hole in the paper. If 125 gr was the best, then I'd be using that. Your bow will talk to you and let you know what it likes:)
Skinnybill makes a good point when he says the bow will tell you what it likes. Experiment till you find the best combination of accuracy and quietness, then don't worry about those that say your arrow is either too light or too heavy. If it is tuned well and the broad head is sharp, you can kill whatever you chose to hunt.
I think its great that people question and test things to prove it for them selves. this leads to new discoveries, etc. I also think its true that you can kill animals with light or heavy arrows.
But as mentioned we use many analogies to simplify this for people that ask about heavy arrows.
like the tennis ball/baseball.
I use the analogy of crashing a corvette into a brick wall at 40mph and you have a pile of fiberglass, crash a dump truck into a brick wall at 5 mph and you have a pile of bricks.
Imo there is a reason that wrecking balls are not made out of aluminum, ice spuds are heavy, jackhammers, sledge hammers, etc.
And if my wife is going to hit me in the head with a pan id rather her hit me with a light frying pan swung fast than a cast iron one swung a little slower.
Most houses are built now with hollow indoor doors to prevent the injuries that happen with solid heavy doors getting closed on kids fingers.
A heavy fishing lure cast farther than a light one.
why my quad with a snowplow hitting my deep sow drive way at 30 mph only gets 50 feet into it before I cant plow any more but my buddys side by side can crawl thru my whole 225 foot drive way in the same snow.
Why when I used to do a test in ibep classes I leaned a 3d target against a tree and shot a not loaded up 3555 gold tip at 350 grains it didn't move but them shot it with my 750 grain stuffed 3555 and the target would always bounce off the tree and fall over forward.
I like heavy better. everyday life has shown me it just hits harder. my opinion anyway.
Original Topic: Now I am confused
Seems to me that if you go the light/fast route you better make sure the bow and arrow combination is tuned to the nth and you are getting dartlike bare shaft flight.
heavy and fast set up too
Seems to me that if you go the light/fast route you better make sure the bow and arrow combination is tuned to the nth and you are getting dartlike bare shaft flight.
I thought the videos were well presented. all 3 arrows were moderate weight compared to many of the "light" arrows used the last 20 years by high tech guys. Context is essential to understanding - in his world with a light bow and critical attention to tuning he may do well with a light arrow. We use bows that we are comfortable using for moose elk big bears and big hogs as well as deer so our arrow weights are 650 to 1200 grains - so the study has nothing to do with my approach to bowhunting but I did enjoy the video and can appreciate his effort.
Interesting to see though that of the 3 only 1 would be best and 2 at best acceptable - at that range of shooting my arrows hit each other in the target - not all over by inches - which brings up another whole round of exploring. There is a perfect balance for a hunting arrow which I have developed many - and in my opinion watching the accuracy I would take ONE of those and tune further to get that perfect arrow and try to avoid being distracted by the different weights.
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QuoteOriginally posted by gringol:
Sometimes it's best to ignore the internet. This post being the exception. :)
more like the "example!"
IMO and it is an opinion---well presented pseudo science is still pseudo science
and sure 349 g may not seem light to a c-bow shooter--but this guy is NOT shooting a c-bow
and this is the context I believe it should be understood in
sure he did expend a fair amount of energy in producing this--but certainly with an agenda too"prove"---that adgenda IMO was to make shooting an extremely light [7.27 gpp]at big game seem ok
now I know this horse has been long dead and beaten repeatedly !!this movie has been around for some time!!
the problem with it IMO is it keeps resurfacing and messing with peoples minds--the fellow who started this thread took the time to tune and set up what sounds like an above average rig that he should never doubt--but this film on the surface "seems like science"
me-i'll trust my physics teacher and my own experience
and as for his shooting being all over the place--I have to believe he was spreading the shots out to save testing medium! i hear he's no slouch!!
for the very most part, that kind of thinking - fast bows and uber light arrows - does a huge disservice to trad bowhunting ... as evidenced by this thread's topic starter.
the vast majority of trad bowhunters are not at all like this guy advocating light and fast.
by all means, if this strikes yer fancy, experiment away, but do be careful!
else, stick to the basics that have worked for many decades for very dedicated trad bowhunters.
there are far more and better reasons for "heavy and slow" than light and fast.
Seems to me that if you go the light/fast route you better make sure the bow and arrow combination is tuned to the nth and you are getting dartlike bare shaft flight.
No ,no gentleman's , my setup is dangerous ! I killing tennis ball from 30 meters ,now i need to kill some deer and i am happy as a pig in mud :biglaugh:
660 grain , 300 grain on front .....bow on my draw length 60 pound , so i am fine
Thank God you cleared this up...too much to ingest. This was getting way too technical for my liking. I thought we would need an Astrolger or Professor of Science to clear this up..... :laughing: :dunno:
If you look at 2:55 on 2 of 2 you can see the lightest arrow had a much different shaped tip.
Finer point and different slope.
I'd need to see cut-on-contact broadheads in some medium before I went all ga-ga.
I like 560 to 620 gr wood arrows with 125 gr broadheads. They come out the backside of my local whitetails. Don't know the speed but fast enough.
Joe. . . THAT'S what I have been missing. My Astrologer. When making arrows, one must choose a very auspicious day for correct flight to be ensured.
Chuckc
Chuck,
They call it the mystical flight of the arrow for a reason! Lol.
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000419
Found this in the dangerous game page. Seems right.
Seems to me that if you go the light/fast route you better make sure the bow and arrow combination is tuned to the nth and you are getting dartlike bare shaft flight.