After reading the responses on the "How much would it take to give up your trad bow" post, most say that they don't care about the speed.
HYPOTHETICALLY, take 2 bows, Your favourite one, and the new one. Both exactly the same, looks, weight, string etc, shooting the same arrow, everything the same, except the new one is 10-15fps faster.
Which one would you go home with. (silly?)
the slower one....I like to march to a differant beat...... :biglaugh:
Speed is probably a factor for most trad hunters, it's just way down the list of factors that impact their preferences. In your hypothetical, if the new bow was EXACTLY the same, except for speed, I'd have a new favorite bow. If there was even a slight advantage to the old bow in regards to feel, noise, accuracy, smoothness of draw, etc., I'd stick with old reliable. I'd say your hypothetical is pretty far fetched though. 10-15 fps is a big improvement for two identical bows. I could see maybe finding 3-5 fps difference even between two "identical" mass produced bows, but not 10-15. But I guess that's why it's "hypothetical". :D I like the question though. I'm interested to see all the responses.
Matt
I do see your point ... BUT all things being equal (in your example)... PROBABLY would mean the arrows that you were currently shooting would PROBABLY be to weak in spine. Speaking strictly from my viewpoint, I wouldn't want to start trying to find the perfect arrow set up again. If, for example, I went from a mild R/D bow to a radical R/D design...then I'd be ok with the idea.....just my take
Tradcat
Matt, (far fetched- yes) that's why hypothetically. Everything the SAME except the speed.
Cheers Dan
"fast is fine but accuracy is final"
Wyatt Earp
Tradcat, same spine arrows, no retuning needed.
Dan
Accuracy the same, string, spine, quiet, dead in hand, ETC. EVERYTHING THE SAME.
Cheers Dan
how do we always get back to this?
I have a rather short draw, speed at my draw is important. Some bows are total duds at 26". Some recurves are more touchy at a short draw than at a longer draw. Some longbows are not as fast as my pig-nut hickory at my draw. But no matter what bow it is, if a bow a touchy to inflections put into the shot by my release fingers, it will never go hunting.
If you asking me if I would drop the money on a new bow and give up my old standby because it is 10-15fps faster, no.
If I was in an archery shop comparing the two, I would pick the faster one.
The speed topic causes bunched panties everytime it comes up. I personally agree with you, but this thread is going to go everywhere except where you meant it to go.
"Silence is deadly!"
I have yet to shoot a single real arrow out of a hypothetical bow...I have more than one bow that is fast and quiet and I am content
DDave
speed is not the most important factor but it of course is important, and it depends on the quarry how important, the bigger the animal the more important, "up to a point" speed plus a certain amount of weight gives better penetration and that in conjunction with a well placed arrow gives us what were all after a quick clean kill, there is no set speed that is best and there is no set arrow weight that is best, mix the 2 together with your bows weight and we have what were looking for.
It would depend on how accurate I could shoot the new bow. A faster bow can sometimes be less forgiving in form and release errors. I would not sacrifice accuracy for a little bit more speed.
When I first got my ACS, I had to slow it down with a stiff shaft and heavy tips until I got used to the bow. I was shooting GT trads 7595 with 300 grains up front, with a 46# bow. I have since lengthen the 7595 shaft and now shoot 200 grains up front, and it's quite fast.
So now let me ask you a silly question!
Why do you ask?
that's easy....the faster one, unless it was ugly :biglaugh:
While I would not choose set-up on speed alone. I would choose the faster one in the all is the same hypothetical you presented. More energy and flatter trajectory would be a positive in my view.
I would stay with the bow I have unless the new one is free and comes with free arrows I can tune
as well.
QuoteOriginally posted by larry:
that's easy....the faster one, unless it was ugly :biglaugh:
I would rather shoot and ugly bow that has superior performance, than have the most beautiful bow in the world and have poor performance. And there is such a bow, that is the most beautiful bow I ever seen, but a poor performer. I won't call no names, but been there done that!
15fps and I'll stick with my old bow still because that 15fps isn't enough to change my effective kill range anyway and I have memories in my old bow.
If I could get a bow that was the same weight and shot the EXACT same it would take at least 50-75fps to make me consider going to a newer bow. That could buy me a few yards at no loss. However that kind of gain without giving up anything else simply isn't possible. Speed is in my opinion the least important aspect for me. Any bow of legal draw weight is fast enough to ethically hunt with. So, I focus on more intimate things like the feel, ergonomics, sound quality, etc.
I'll take the new 10 to 15 fps faster one every time. Speed is right up at the top of the list with me.
I figure with today's high dollar custom bows everything else should be a given. Some people just like different looks, lengths, styles, etc.
Identical bow, faster, swap..yep.
I'd take them both, and since they're identical, look the same, same string, same length, same weight etc. I'd put a better string on the slow one so it'll shoot as fast as the other one.
One thing I would have to do with a faster bow is train my brain again on how to hold on the shot. It wouldn't be worth the change for me as my favorite bow has plenty of speed and I am used to the way she shoots.
I'd just shoot a heavier arrow and be back down to the same speed..........or....... I could shoot lighter arrows out of the bows I have but then I'd have to get new arrows and retune everything. Too much of a PIA for me, I'd rather spend time hunting than tuning...........YMMV
I said it before and I will say it again. Speed does not kill, silence kills. That being said, I like a great performing bow but it has to have that quiet factor. Do the math! Speed of sound in seconds vs dropping a body in 3/10 of a second. The deer here are extremely wired right now at the end of gun season.
For most stuff Yes but for varmits speed does kill. A slow arrow on a coyote at 20-30 yards is a miss. OK for the most part any arrow at a coyote at 30 yards is a miss. They can hear your arrows coming they can see your arrows coming. You might not need 300fps but the closer to 200 the better. But your also only shooting a 25-45 lb animal. I shoot a 475 grn arrows from a 55-60 pound bows Would I use this on a 400lb animal No.
Coyotes are never calm coming in they are going to be edgy so a faster arrow is better.
I do like my shots as close as possible. With in 20 yards. I have seen coyotes do amazing things to doge an arrow. But speed is completely worthless without being able to hit that spot with that bow.
I would take both home.
Just like rifles you need your deer guns and then you need your varmint guns. :rolleyes:
I would take the faster one...and then I'd tinker with it to try and make it faster.
the quieter one.
I would say there is more you can do to make a fast bow quieter than a quiet bow faster. :archer:
And probably they'd meet each other about in the middle. :biglaugh:
The joke of the whole speed thing is that there is seldom ever more than just a few feet per second difference in speed (3-5fps) between the "fast" and the average (taking in account similar bow designs and not so similar at times). Set up means a lot in perceived speed.
Problem is without proof, it is only opinion. Wanna upset someone quick? show them (using a chrono) that their bow isn't what they thought it was.
With anything, there is always a tradeoff, more this, less that. Where it the happy medium. Not all trades are issues or problems.
You also can never prove a point. If there weren't people on both sides, there would be no proving to be done.
BIgJim
The way I look at it is there are many things I want out of a bow. If I were to prioritize those things, speed doesn't make it to the top spot on the list. As a matter of fact, it doesn't make the top 3 for me. Others are different.
I use to be a rifle nut and I was one of those guys who never bought into the whole magnum craze. Much preferred something that was better handling and a joy to shoot. That preference has made it to my trad shooting as well.
Its okay if speed is at the top of your list (or anyone elses), just not at the top of mine.
Yup, at some point speed matters, and it is nice if my bow is fairly fast, but that is not the most important thing in my mind. How it feels in the hand is most important, and then, if it feels good, how it looks is somewhat important. But strangely, how it looks might be more in terms of bow shape and style vs pretty eye catching wood and trinkets.
I have been known to toss my longbow w quiver up the side of a mountain and climb up to it using the brush as hand holds in order to get to the ridge I was trying for. It is tough to do that with a beautiful bow.
ChuckC
Guaranteed the faster one!
It's been made quite clear here that everything b/w the 2 bows is exact except the speed....I'm sure most people here choosing the slower one are only doing so to prove a point. Those saying that 2 to 3 fps is more realistic haven't properly read the proposal. 2 bows, identical, 15 fps difference...THAT'S IT!
Speed obviously isn't that important to anyone here as we shoot trad bows...if it was then we'd have wheels on them.
The only time that I have ever seen two bows that were 15 fps different and shot nearly identically, was at a shoot when the guys were comparing their Hill style bows. In these comparisons, they were not quite identical at times, because some of the slower ones had more hand shock than the faster ones. Actually, I saw more than 15 fps differences that day with near identical poundages, arrow weights and draw lengths. I also saw how two people shooting the same bow and arrows with nearly identical draw lengths could get a 15 fps difference from each other. Then someone took out a Schulz all bamboo and let a few of us, that he trusted to not over draw it, try it out. Some bows were slower, some bows were faster, but that bow was the winner by a wide margin. It may be to much to ask at times, to expect two bows to have all things identical and have a wide spread in chrono readings.
OK a fair question... Am I paying (again) for the "new bow" if I chose to take that one home, or am I simply choosing to walk away with the one I want ?
If it is free, sure, the new one is fine, but if I have to pay (again) for the privilege of shooting a few fps faster, nothing else being different, nope, keeping what I got.
ChuckC
does a hypothetical bow make noise? if so, i would think it would be alot louder than the exact same slower bow with the same arrow etc.. in that case i will stick with my old bow ....
For me, the answer is simple. I would choose the faster one.
I gap shoot; and you are offering me a bow with a flatter trajectory. Less variation in gap. After all, I am promised that EVERYTHING is the same, other than speed.
If I wanted less speed, I could accomplish that with more silencers on the string, and a heavier arrow. If you wanted more speed out of a bow; well if it is tuned well, that just ain't going to happen.
I'd take the one that is quieter.
I buy bows strictly on karma. If the faster bow likes me better sure, if not, no.
All other things being equal, there's no question, I'd take the faster one.
It's like posting the word '' Speed '' on this site it's a crime!
It's a very simple question. Would it take 1fps or 100000 fps.
My friend who shoots a state of the art compound (350fps) just told me he missed a doe that ducked the arrow at 20 yards. The last two deer I shot at and missed (darkness played a major part) were shot at 12 and 10 yards and never flinched when I shot.
So speed is not the answer unless you are shooting Fita, field archery or 3-D
To go back on topic, you'd have to be shooting a real dog to have the new bow that many fps faster than your old one since most modern bows all shoot within a few fps of each other in reality.
If you want faster without a crono use neutral or dark color fletches. If you want slower use white fletches. Walla :bigsmyl:
Some of you guys read into DB's question like my girlfriend does and add all kinds of stuff to it. Pretty simple question to answer, the faster bow is better if everything else is the same.
And I think Ryan is on to something, maybe not some much proving point as it's more trad when someone turns up their nose at a fast bow.
Well there are some of us out here that don't think the whole speed thing is a joke at all. There are many traditional archers out there that want the best performance they can get from their bows, and 15 fps is something that you wouldn't need a chronograph to see the difference. take the two bows side by side and shoot them at 15 yards. Then step back to 30 yards.... the difference is going to be rather large.
To answer the original question given 2 identical bows and only the speed being the difference.With the 15 fps faster bow you would see a noticeable difference in the trajectory shooting them side by side. The faster flatter shooting bow will be much more forgiving to missed judged yardage estimates.....
I also respectfully disagree with Jim that most bows are within 3-5 fps in comparison given a similar design and set up with the same string.
There are all kinds of different people in this world. Some are quite happy to settle into a comfort zone and be quite satisfied with what they have become accustomed to...... Others like a bit of adventure in life.... Buy that new sports car, or the fastest state of the art bow.....
Is it necessary? No... not at all. But life is short, and i for one like a little adventure mixed in.... :readit:
Good grief. The guy asked a simple question and we now debate how "red" blood is?
2 identical bows. Sure would take the faster one.
And I have no idea when fast is "fast," and no idea how "fast" or "slow" my go-to bow is.
Go hunt, hike, or shoot or something. Cabin fever is already an epidemic.
Put me down for the faster one. The grip has to be right, it has to be quiet without a lot of vibration at the shot, and it has to be nice to look at. If I can get those things then the faster the bow the better I'll like it.
all things equal the faster bow....
Must agree with SSWV......My McCullough Tsunami and my two Big River longbows are fast enough for me and accurate!
This is like a Perry Mason lawyer trick, ask a long involved question and then want a simple yes or no answer. No one ever likes giving the simple yes or no answer, because some of us remember all of the speed promices of the past and tread carefully. Jack Howard Gamemaster Jet world's fastest bow, it was a great, fast bow with 2020s. Way too clumsy for me, so it failed as a hunting bow, for me. The guy who bought it from me, hunted antelope from a blind, it worked for him. I refuse to answer yes or no to a leading question, but I do like bows that faster that will still do what I want. To expect them to be the same? It is very likely that they will be different.
I would go with the one I am used to. I have been shooting stick bows since Moby Dick was a minnow and my brain is set for about 175fps. When I shoot the rocket bows I shoot too high and I'm not going to get rid of 9 other bows to learn a new one.
It seems that when you mention the word "speed" to some, it's like waving a red flag infront of a bull.
I thought it to be a pretty straight forward?, but it's obvious that lots don't understand the word "HYPOTHETICAL", and the phrase,"EXACTLY THE SAME EXCEPT FOR "SPEED". Or as soon as they saw the word "SPEED" they didn't read the rest of the post.
Okay, 2 bows EXACTLY THE SAME (hypothetical), who'll take the slower one.
You can't take quiet, dead in hand, accurate, etc, one, they are the SAME.
If any given bow is too fast for you, you can always shoot a heavier arrow..
Cheers Dan
I started to other thread not to get into this '' SPEED '' discussion but to see what the average fps increase it would take for others to buy a new bow.
It's really simple. Is it 1fps, 5fps, 10fps, ect, ect. If nothing can pry you away from your pervious bow, then just say that. For me it would have to be over 15fps w/ everything else being equal. Now was that so hard.
I haven't really thought about it honestly. But my brain needs to be wired for abotu a 15y shot. Any further and I tend to shoot low. I would probably benefit from a more flat shooting bow but I've never chronoed mine to know if that's even possible. I would say 15 FPS is significant enough to make a change provided I can still shoot a heavier weight hunting arrow accurately.
QuoteOriginally posted by daniel boon:
It seems that when you mention the word "speed" to some, it's like waving a red flag infront of a bull.
I thought it to be a pretty straight forward?, but it's obvious that lots don't understand the word "HYPOTHETICAL", and the phrase,"EXACTLY THE SAME EXCEPT FOR "SPEED". Or as soon as they saw the word "SPEED" they didn't read the rest of the post. Okay, 2 bows EXACTLY THE SAME (hypothetical), who'll take the slower one.
You can't take quiet, dead in hand, accurate, etc, one, they are the SAME.
If any given bow is too fast for you, you can always shoot a heavier arrow..
If they are the same design, style, limb core, riser would, draw weight, length, string, arrow rest, side plate, arrow, the same in every way "HYPOTHETICAL" as you put it; THEN "HYPOTHETICAL" THEY ARE GOING TO SHOOT THE SAME SPEED.
Lighten up, where just having fun with your question, Iron sharpens Iron!
Yup, hypothetically speaking, if they are the same except for speed, they ain't the same. Something made one faster, it is different.
But, that is just hypothetically speaking of course.
And what is wrong with liking what I have ? Is that really an issue ? Does everybody in this society have to want to run to the newest and greatest of everything ? Really ?
ChuckC
The question poses the obvious answer, the unspoken point of the question is not worth argueing about. However, since such hypothetic situation rarely, if ever, happens, the objective responce makes such a question argueable.
I'm just as amazed at the ones who are surprised at the wandering threads on a question like this. What rock have they been hiding under the last several years?
QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
The question poses the obvious answer, the unspoken point of the question is not worth argueing about. However, since such hypothetic situation rarely, if ever, happens, the objective responce makes such a question argueable.
Huh!
I have tried a nice handful of bows of all different styles and I will say that difference of 10-15 fps, you're not often gonna see that on bows of the same style compared to each other..it's more when comparing say a Hill bow to a radical hybrid for example. On two bows of the same style that are same rated draw weight but maybe just different limb materials and/or limb design variation you'll see better change/gains just changing string size/material and gpp and maybe draw length. Putting on a skinny string and shooting 8-9 gpp imstead of 10-12 and making sure youre fully extending and not short drawing instead is much cheaper than buying a whole new bow. To me the real benefit in more exotic materials is gaining things like torsional and lateral stability in a limb and hence maybe more forgiveness. There is so much misunderstanding out there as to the benefits of carbon or foam in a limb. Some bowyers like Sixby or Kirk could chime in and explain. From what i remember, many out there think carbon/foam limbs for example are all about speed but one benefit that is often overlooked by hunters is that limb type's ability to resist temperature changes affecting performance better than glass/wood.
It's funny you should mention temperature! I have noticed a slight difference in performance in several of my bows on large temperature swings. IE; Say one day it's 70+, and then the next day it's in the 30 or 40's.
I was going to start a thread on this subject but never did.
Speed is important to me, I like it. And it does kill! :thumbsup:
Why would I consider giving up my favorite bow? I wouldn't even consider giving up my 25 year old LL Bean Guide Wool shirt for a new one.
I use my Bear is not the fastest but I can shoot it well and I never had a deer say DAM that is a fast bow. LOL
Looks like there's a demand for bowyers who intentionally build slower bows. Things that make you go...HMMM?
QuoteOriginally posted by Manitoba Stickflinger:
Looks like there's a demand for bowyers who intentionally build slower bows. Things that make you go...HMMM?
made me lol
QuoteOriginally posted by daniel boon:
HYPOTHETICALLY, take 2 bows, Your favourite one, and the new one. Both exactly the same, looks, weight, string etc, shooting the same arrow, everything the same, except the new one is 10-15fps faster.
Which one would you go home with. (silly?)
Back to the original question - how much speed increase would you need to replace your current bow? Not which would you pick off a pile of free bows, etc. It is assumed you'll be a pile of cash lighter after the transaction if you go with the new faster bow, I believe. And IF speed were the only difference (how that could be achieved is another question).
I doubt I'll ever buy a "new" bow again, so I'll buy the 3 fps slower bow someone is casting off for $120 when it comes up on some bid site and no one is interested in that old, slow dinosaur. :laughing:
I like the old technology, not the cutting edge stuff.