I'm new to making wood arrows and had a couple of questions:
In order for me to be able to tune my nocks to align the grain properly and the feathers so they best clear my bow's riser I need to temporarily adhere them to the shaft during the cresting, fletching process. I have used craft glue dots but they don't hold the nock well enough to ensure it doesn't move when fletching. How do you guys do it?
Also I want to bare shaft tune the wood shafts, but again the glue dots don't hold well enough to prevent the nocks from shattering (bad situation). If I glue with Duco the nock is on for good and I would not be able to rotate nock on finished arrow to correct position before gluing.
Any help is appreciated.
You align wood arrows so the grain lines are against the bow and the grain flames face forward. Build your arrows that way but don't fletch them until you bare shaft them. The only real tuning you do is cut the arrow shorter or add more or less point weight.
Thanks---My fletching jig does not allow me to adjust position of feathers---just spaces 30 degrees apart---not a problem with adjustable nocks as I can rotate them once fletched. but it would not position them properly for my bow if I glued nocks on first. This is why I am trying to affix them temporarily so I can index the nock so feathers align correctly for my bow before gluing permanently.
This is something that many find objectionable.
Lots just jam them on (for fletching) or put just a tiny dot of glue or wax on the taper, but if you are gonna bare shaft tune them you need to secure the nock well.
I am guessing that you need to designate some arrows for testing and just fletch those as is
or
I think most, or at least many on here will advise you NOT to bare shaft tune woodies. Just tune them with fletching in place.
I have had some bad reactions to woodies hitting the backstop in a less than perfect line.
ChuckC
That is right. If you like to buy wood shafts, bare shaft tune them. Voice of experience.
I have found that tuning woodies, it is best to broadhead tune with the same weight broadhead as field point... Like mentioned if your bare shaft is too stiff or weak it will break everytime.
rifleman,
I'm not really understanding the problem. As Pat says, the grain simply is perpendicular to the bow. So once dipped and/or crested, simply glue the nocks on (permanently). With the nocks on, in th proper orientation, you can bare shaft (I NEVER do that though)then fletch. Always be sure to get the cock feather in the correct place(as an extension of the annual growth rings) and the rest will be where they need to be.
Sounds like you are making it much harder than it needs to be.
Arne
I use a tight fitting nock and just stick it on. I do make a small alignment mark with a pencil on the nock and arrow just in case it should come off but it never does.
You may have to try a different nock to find ones that will stay on with no glue.
I believe rifleman is alluding to the need to rotate the fletched shaft to reduce/ eliminate contact w/ his bow. I've seen this as necessary with vanes but unneeded with feathers.
I can't fathom why you would shoot woodies without gluing on the nock! Seems like an excellent way to dry fire your bow. Glue it on so the grain runs correctly, put the arrow in your fletching jig and glue on the feathers. I don't know what kind of jig you have but mine aligns the feathers to the nock.
I don't recommend bare shafting wooden arrows. In fact, I don't bare shaft any of them. I paper tune or broadhead tune them. I prefer paper tuning for all shaft types.
If your fletching is hitting your bow either the feathers are too tall or you don't have a properly spined arrow. When shot the feathers lay down somewhat and with proper archers paradox the arrow goes around the bow without touching the bow.
Do you mind telling us your bow make/model/style, bow weight at your draw, your arrow length, and your spine/fletching combo and point weight?
I also understand your nock question as I like my arrow fletch turned just a bit differently than the standard nock/cock feather alignment given by the jigs, but, as I now turn cock feather in it doesn't matter, but, grain orientation to your shooting style can be a consideration (cock feather in towards riser means slightly different grain runout).
I have pressed the nock onto the wood shaft to place the nocks on after fletching like I prefer, but, marking both nock and shaft to reorient if it comes loose while fletching is needed. Make sure you glue them on permanently after getting all the fletching in place.
Merry Christmas!!
All you can tune is length and point weight. If I felt the need to fine tune feather location I'd just tack the nocks on a couple of finished shafts with a drop of glue for bare shaft tuning, then remove them for fletching. You can easily fletch as needed with the nocks just pressed on without glue, then glue them on in line with the grain after fletching. Personally, I've never had a problem with feather alignment; only vanes.
If you are wanting to bare shaft, just glue nock on and when you are done cut it off.Nocks are cheap.
Thank you all for the responses. This was very helpful. I like the idea of making the nock/arrow for indexing issues. I do find that feather orientation gives me a cleaner off the shelf so will use this trick to hold nocks on while fletching and then final glue them before shooting. Sounds like most agree bareshafting woodies may not be productive.
Bud B my set up is a 58 inch Toelke RD Whip 50# at 28 inches---I draw 27". I shoot Left handed. This bow shoots great with beman mfx 600s and gold tip 1535s full length with from 200 to 275 grns up front. The bow wants a weakly spined carbon. I know this may have much to do with my release. I'm guessing bow weight at my draw is around 47#s. I shoot 3 under. The woodies I'm currently working with are spined 45-50 23/64 with a 5/16 taper on fletching end. They are cut to 29" BOP to back of point taper. I use 4.75 inch shield cut (home ground and burned turkey feathers--began trimming leading edge of quill once fletched as I think this was causing them to kick and unconfortttalble on bow hand). The are around 5/8 tall at back end. Started out using 145 grs up front and have begun using 160 as arrows at first were hitting to the right (I shoot left handed and took this to mean they were too stiff). The seem to be grouping pretty well to center at my modest 18 yard range. Hope this helps.
Thanks again for everyone taking the time to respond.
Merry Christmas. John
Where are you in Ohio?
Maybe I'm doing it wrong but I've never bare-shafted cedars. After cut, taper, stain, & crest, I simply set the shafts in my spine tester and glue the nocks at the most consistent spine, which is usually, but not always, where the grain lines are directly against the bow. I glue the nocks on right then and there. Shafts are now ready for fletching.
Nock alinment should be perpendicular to the grain you can rotate the the fletch on the shaft but the nock should stay perpendicular to the grain
Hitman, I'm in Orient/Harrisburg area about 20 minutes south of Columbus.
ok. I'm just across river from Gallipolis.
Guys, I believe that is what he is wanting to do. Apply fletching in a manner that allows him to shift his nock. That is... stuff the nock on, fletch, then remove the nock and glue it in place to align it with the grain.
This allows one to have the feathers align differently when nocked onto the string, maybe to gain better clearance, maybe to avoid contact with his hand. Whatever reason he has.
Others have done this often in the past and it works fine.
Note... by switching from left to right (or the inverse) fletch, you completely change up the way the feathers present and that in itself may give you the clearance you seek.
ChuckC
Left for Right or the or the other way round,,may do the trick.
Or two fletch..or four fletch.....
It's awesome watching as these things get worked out..
It sounds like the feather clamp and jig you are using may be off center of your arrow shaft.
I've had this issue when setting up the helical clamp and changing feathers shorter or longer.
it takes a little time to adjust and off set the shaft with feather clamp. spot glueing the first feather can help with centering the shaft with the clamp. you can always use an "experiment" arrow with the same exact diameter shaft you plan of fletching to set up the fletching jig. If the shaft isn't centered with the clamp, adjust it cut the feather off and spot glue another, check for alignment again.
It's an easy fix if you use insert nocks as with carbon shafts. Because they can be rotated.
It sounds like this what you did to compensate for feather being off center of your carbon shafts.
Not trying to hijack the thread intent here, but while reading the past posts on it I noticed two differing opinions on the grain v nock orientation. One comment is saying that the grain should be perpendicular to the bow, while a couple others are saying the grain should run flat against the bow? I'm confused now!
I have just recently acquired most of the tools to begin crafting my own arrows, and wasn't even aware of the grain orientation until very recently.
Just for my clarification. An arrow has grain (growth rings) that lye in layers on the shaft. Should those layers be stacked (so to speak) on the shelf (perpendicular to bow) or the plate (perpendicular to shelf or nock)?
Newbie arrow crafting guy
Far rider - the grain should be flat with the shelf and perpendicular to the riser/bow body.
Think of the shelf as an L. You want the grain to be lying like the bottom portion of the L....or the shelf floor. Grain runout should point away from you if there is grain runout.
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQmkX4MHDkKEHMY8h9XrjwMyG0B3gYjHgqrF9IDvrZUfLXChsOo8A)
Its all too Technical for me, I reckon. Never Bareshafted a Wooden Arrow in My Life. make sure the Grain is as close to Perpendicular as you can get, the make sure they are as straight as you can get them. Past that, finish 'em and shoot 'em!
Hi everyone,
i found this commercial on stick bow.com :
http://www.stickbow.com/PRODUCTS/flight-rite.html
do you know anyone who uses a spine tester for gluing the nocks as described ? :
2. IT WILL PROVIDE THE CORRECT NOCK ALIGNMENT BASED ON THE STIFFEST CROSS SECTION OF THE SHAFT (WHICH IS NOT ALWAYS ALIGNED WITH THE VISIBLE CROSS GRAIN OF THE WOOD)
this sounds weird to me.
thanks
julien
Old thread, but I'll chime in. I had the same issue as Rifleman for a while. Posted the question here back then myself. Simply put: Glue on the temporary nock with just a drop of Duco at the edge of the nock (where it ends on the shaft). Enough to hold it in place, but you can give the nock a good twist and it'll come off.
Also, if you're using a Bitz jig, trim the back end of the index ridge just a tiny bit - it'll seat more fully in the jig. Turned out there's a few different indexers for the Bitz, mine came with one that was aligned for carbons. Got the correct correct index piece, problem solved.
Holy crap! Some of you guys take all the fun out of being a traditional shooter. :goldtooth:
Tracy
Being traditional doesn't mean shooting crooked arrows, Howard Hill said you should use the best equipment you can get.
I have no problem for gluing my nocks,
Slowbowjoe, i don't think you understood the question,
if you read the link below :
http://www.stickbow.com/PRODUCTS/flight-rite.html
you'll understand that it seems the spine tester's manufacturer suggest to use the device to find the best position for gluing the nock, by checking the stiffest side of the shaft instead of putting the
grain perpendicular to the bow's riser.
and i just would like to know if someone uses this method, or what you think about it.
My arrows are nice and strait and I don't over think everything and make it harder then it really is. :thumbsup: :D
Tracy
if your arrows are straight, and you're a very happy bowhunter, why do you loose your time here reading what "overthinking guys" are doing?
i think guys like you are not overthinking when posting out of subject answers
viking: I'm familiar with using a spiner to find the stiffest orientation and affixing the nock accordingly, but I don't use that method.
The strongest orientation of the grain is perpendicular to the bow side plate, IMO, regardless of whether that's the highest orientation for the spine, though it is usually that, too.
Not a big difference, regardless, usually 3# or less. I go with strength rather than exactly matched spine, if I have to make that decision. Keep in mind, too, that most suppliers spine perpendicular to the grain so that's usually the most consistent measurement across a number of shafts, and, of course, it's the way to go if one doesn't own a spine tester.
Rifleman: You should be able to adjust your clamp to give you the feather clearance you want so you don't have to fiddle adjusting the nocks after fletching. Good luck.
I think one of the primary rules on this site is that there is NOT only one way of doing things. I believe I understand the OP and it's certainly a valid question. I understand not wanting to get lost in details. I have a very good friend who builds strings and he wants only to know the length of the bow and he will build the string to fit. We differ frequently on the definition of "length of the bow" and I prefer to order the string to an actual string length. He has no way to build one that way. He can out-shoot me any day of the week. I'm an engineer by training and I love getting lost in details.
Different strokes, etc.
I experimented with different orientation of the feather when I tried using the feather touching the tip of my nose as a release trigger. I also played around with trying to obtain minimum interference with feather contact on the shelf/side plate. I now shoot cock feather in, but played around quite a bit with different orientation. None of the orientations seem to make any difference for me, but this game is , to probably mis-quote a famous baseball player, "90% mental and the other 10% is in your mind".
Short answer to a long-winded post - "It's all good". Some of us learn from experimenting and others just do what seems to work. I personally love bare shafting, but agree others seem to do just as well without ever trying it.
There were several useful replies here that I think will prove helpful in achieving what the Rifleman is attempting to do.
thank you Orion for the informations,
I use the traditional method for the nock alignment, but was just curious to understand the other method too.
by the way you can have a look at my work :
http://vikingarrows.com/fleches/Fleches.html#grid
I do exactly what Orion described above.
Vikingarrows you do beautiful work!
thank you Bjorn,
interesting to know some of you are checking the stiffness before glueing the nocks. But i believe it doesn't make a big difference with the standard method.
I think the original poster's questions have been answered.
Help me understand something...
Why all the negativity about bareshafting wood arrows?
It sounds like folks are breaking shafts left and right the way you talk about it. Seems to me that if you're breaking a shaft, you're not even close in the first place and shouldn't be shooting that arrow. Either that, or the target you're using is too tough and will chew up any wood arrow that doesn't hit straight.
I don't understand why someone would tell another not to do something because they had a bad personal experience. If you ask a few questions and do a little research, you shouldn't have a problem bareshafting a wood arrow.
I've made plenty of wood arrows for myself and bareshaft each set...only broken arrows after they've been finished.
There are plenty of threads on this site and others on how to correctly bareshaft tune a wood arrow...from figuring out where to start to finished arrow.
It's like saying I should shoot 60-65s out of my 52# PSA. Throw some fletching on there and you'll be fine.
Hogwash. My bow takes 74# cedars cut to 29 7/8" with 125gn points. I carry around a finished arrow with no flething to show the non-believers that you can actually tune a wood arrow.
Maybe I'm jsut cursed with wanting to do things right...
MO bow, Not being critical here, but personally to me the end result is what, and the only thing that maters. I probably didn't do it right, but have tried bare shafting woodies with only broken arrows to show for it. I simply finish my arrows completely and then adjust length and tip weight to tune. Experience has left me with an understanding of the variables for a particular set up. As long as I get excellent arrow flight, how I achieve that doesn't matter. I find tuning woodies very simple to do without bare shaft or paper tuning. I can and do fine tune my woodies by adjusting length to spine for a particular arrow. My arrows will thus vary in length by say plus or minus 3/8". Hunting arrows are always tuned to the BH used. Sorry If I got off thread subject.
MO bow, you have a supporter here.
I shoot mostly carbons, but wanted to get started with woodies. I ordered a set of test spines - 4 ea of 3 different spines. I started with the middle spine. Worked fine with 125gr. I tried the weaker ones and had to cut them back a bit, but got them flying nicely too. The stiffest ones needed 190 gr point to fly decently. Not a single arrow broke because none of them were THAT far off to begin with. Shot them into bag targets and foam blocks without a problem.
It's certainly not for everybody, but I really enjoy it. I usually know if I've had a bad release and it shows immediately with a bare shaft. If I get 3 or 4 really good releases, those are the ones that will show me where I need to be. Like you, I like to carry a bare shaft - partly for the reason you mentioned and partly to practice a perfect release. If that bare shaft is not landing in the group, it's a bad release. Great training tool.