I apologize in advance, as I know this field has been plowed "ad nauseum" and it largely comes down to personal preference. The limbs will be recurves with a pronounced tip radius. Options are carbon with maple, 'boo, or foam cores, what are the relative strengths of each? From talking to several bowyers I generally gather:
The foam will be the lightest, possible giving a few fps speed increase, but really shine on being the smoothest drawing, i.e. consistent #'s/inch of loading throughout the draw cycle. May percieve a bit of after-shot vibration(buzz) at least more so than other options. Impervious to temp. changes, more expensive.
Maple will provide the "deadest" stop regarding residual vibration/hand shock. Comes at the expense of possible percieved slight increase in #'s/inch towards end of draw(stacking).
'Boo is 'wood' and actually the heaviest of the three, but offers a good all-around compromise of the other's positive attributes.
What am I missing? I know this is over- simplification and these attributes can be optimized with design. Looking for bowyer input and hopefully those that have been fortunate enough to shoot all three in the same config.
If you are looking at a combination of carbon and foam, then checkout Bob Morrison's Max1 limbs.
I have a set in ILF and can't say enough good things about them.
RR,
That's what they will be, or possibly the Max 2 if that config is available for a Shawnee in time. He still offers your choice of cores and has to build his new shop, so I've got a little while to think about it.
IMO,
Bowyers are going to tell what they think you want to hear! It's a trade w/ a lot of pride invested w/ both builders and owners. As I'm sure you have already figured out. The best way to find the answer to your question is to shoot them for yourself.
Having owned and shot all you mentioned above. I personally wouldn't spend the extra money on any of the carbon and this and carbon that stuff unless I find it 2nd hand at a much reduced price from new. Boo, maple, yew, and other wood cores will usually be w/in a few fps to most carbon stuffed limbs and for me, the wood core limbs are easier to quiet.
My preference is maple. It has been around for a long time. There are reasons that bear, Pearson etc... used maple. Performance is about as good as anything else out there. It is stable, easy to work, and easy to obtain in quantity.
Foam for sure, carbon if you want to spend the extra, but for $30 foam upgrade its a no brainer for me. Foam is my favorite core material bar none. I have owned the same Morrison limbs at the same poundage one with maple and one with foam. The foam cores put the maple cores to shame on all accounts.
My fav is a carbon bamboo sandwich with maple as a close second. Tried a carbon foam sandwich a few years ago and found it wanting. To each his own, try as many bows as you can-spend several days with each to determine what your own preferences are. It is hard work but gotta' be done. :laughing:
I know some get annoyed by these kinds of posts because they think it's a right or wrong question, but I really appreciate them. I like hearing people's experiences. Thanks for starting the thread olddogrib and I'll be following.
My Max 1 carbon/foam limbs by Bob Morrison are the best of the 200+ bows I've owned over the past 13 years. That is true whether talking about smoothness of draw, quietness in shooting, deadness in hand or quickness.
Bill
Bill 200+ bows in 13 years wow might be time for an intervention. LOL Best of luck on your quest for that perfect bow.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ron Roehrick:
Bill 200+ bows in 13 years wow might be time for an intervention. LOL Best of luck on your quest for that perfect bow.
The intervention has already happened. It's called retirement and fixed, and reduced, income! :( :knothead:
Bill
Bill I have been there done that so I know the feeling so many bows so little time. Enjoy the mystical fight of the arrow my brother. I settled on Hill Style longbows after 38 years.
The irony here that nobody realizes is that Bill's Max 1 limbs were built for me. I would have never sold them to him if I realized he was in such need of a 12-step program, lol! Actually, the only reason they still aren't mine is that they were for my Cheyenne. The limbs weren't available for the Shawnees at the time, but they are now. I'm a "beware the man with one bow" kinda guy and, unlike what I'm sure is the consensus, I just prefer my Shawnee to the Cheyenne. It's a grip thing and the riser wasn't even built for me. Those that are lucky enough to find "the one" that fits like a glove know what I'm talking about. It just slides into your hand the same way every time. I'm just glad it didn't take me 200 bows to find it or I'd be in divorce court instead of shopping for spare limbs, lol!
If your looking for max speed foam core. Limb design and tuning has a lot to due with feel. My question to a bowyer is usually what is your favorite core for this limb design and why.
QuoteOriginally posted by olddogrib:
The irony here that nobody realizes is that Bill's Max 1 limbs were built for me. Those that are lucky enough to find "the one" that fits like a glove know what I'm talking about. It just slides into your hand the same way every time.
Richard,
I loved shooting the Max 1 limbs on my previous riser, but the new, low grip riser I just bought from Bob is "the one" for me. It's heavier, quieter and shoots where I'm looking. Thanks for departing with them for me.
Bill
foam
I outfitted my Shawnee with foam limbs 3 years ago, haven't bought another bow since then.
Just a couple of observations/corrections on what you've gleaned to this point. Maple is not lighter than bamboo, it's heavier. However, given that a thicker bamboo lamination is needed to achieve the same weight, it possibly could be heavier in the total limb stack, than maple, but I doubt it. Given that maple is also heavier than foam, I don't see how it can "stop" the limbs faster. More weight in the limbs means they don't stop as fast, regardless of the material.
Regardless, if you use carbon, there will be very little performance difference among the cores you're considering. They'll all work very well. For me, the foam core limbs were a bit noisier, maybe just a different, higher pitch noise vis-a-vis the other materials. I like the carbon and bamboo combination, but wouldn't hesitate to use carbon and maple.
Good luck on your quest. All good choices. Just a matter of what you like to look at.
If one looks at bows that are very core dependent like a Hill longbow, the maple core was the slowest in my experience. It shot fine and I do not know that a deer could tell the difference. I have found a couple of yews that were very fast, but a couple of bamboo models were better in speed and feel. This all makes me very curious about what could be done with a carbon/foam limb in a Hill style bow.
This is the best thing I could say about this subject and it was already said:
"My question to a bowyer is usually what is your favorite core for this limb design and why?"
The limbs are designed with a core in mind and takes a lot of work to get it right. So the bowyer that did the work is going the know the right choice.
Mike
Over a ten year period I've bought & sold probably 30 different bows to include the three above mentioned core materials. I can't tell much difference in maple & bamboo except that in a couple of bows I've owned with maple seemed to have stacked a little more. The main difference I notice in the foam cores is the very even, consistent draw, they are nice to shoot.
Having said that I no longer own a foam core limb. Most of the bows I now shoot are '50s style recurves w/ maple cores and I'm completely content with them.
Orion,
The weight comparison relating to maple and 'boo came from an e-mail discussion with Kirk of Big Foot Bows. I'm sure some of my observations are accurate only as they relate to a given bowyer's design and use of a particular material. They may not hold true "across the board" and it is not my intent for them to be taken as such. I've talked to bowyers who clearly prefer each of these materials above the other two, and it's likely that it performs the best in their designs. Like in most things in life, "one size doesn't fit all".
Bamboo is not a wood actually, it is in the grass family and I believe physically lighter than maple.
Quote
'Boo is 'wood' and actually the heaviest of the three, but offers a good all-around compromise of the others positive attributes.Not sure what you mean by this, but bamboo is actually a grass. Not sure bamboo is heavier than maple; what is your source of information? I'm curious...I'll look it up too.
Boo between glass or carbon or a combination of all three is my preference by far. I have maple cored bows and like them very much though.
Good Luck -
Kris
Here is what I found on the net.
Wood - seasoned & dry kg/cu.m
Afromosia 705
Apple 660 - 830
Ash, black 540
Ash, white 670
Aspen 420
Balsa 170
Bamboo 300 - 400
Birch (British) 670
Cedar, red 380
Cypress 510
Douglas Fir 530
Ebony 960 - 1120
Elm ( English ) 600
Elm ( Wych ) 690
Elm ( Rock ) 815
Iroko 655
Larch 590
Lignum Vitae 1280 - 1370
Mahogany ( Honduras ) 545
Mahogany ( African ) 495 - 850
Maple 755
Been at this awhile now and in our design quietest and smoothest draw is foam cores and fiberglass and performs very well. Carbon is added mostly for stability and does gain a little speed but most for stability.. Our Max1or2 limbs Needs carbon to make the limb stable and with the right carbons does it very well. Wood or grass core are subject to moisture and will take it on no matter how well you seal them, Foam does not. We have had far less delams since we started using foam than we did with Bamboo in hot humid locations. Maple speed was about the same as the foam and 3fps faster than Bamboo. Maple was no where close in smooth feel to the foam or Bamboo, in our bows anyway.The only negative I can see after using foam using and shooting it in our bow for over 7 years, is it looks terrible under clear glass...But,,,,,,25 years at this and I'm still learning and waiting on the next best material to come out.
Bob
QuoteOriginally posted by KentuckyTJ:
Foam for sure, carbon if you want to spend the extra, but for $30 foam upgrade its a no brainer for me. Foam is my favorite core material bar none. I have owned the same Morrison limbs at the same poundage one with maple and one with foam. The foam cores put the maple cores to shame on all accounts.
Ditto!
I kind of have a hard time when several cores have exactly the same draw force curve understanding how one can tell the difference in the feel . I do have to up my stack a bit using some cores , foam for instance. I'm not convinced after building quite a few with foam that there is any real difference when they all have the same draw force curve per design, Perhaps if someone could show me two bows , one with foam , one with maple or boo of the exact same design and poundage that shows the foam with a better draw force curve then I could be convinced.
The truth is my fastest bows have been with maple., But I definitely concede that could be an anomolie which happens with individual bows sometimes being an exceptional performer.
I like boo, I like maple , I like yew and I like foam and walnut . All in no special order.
I could not at this time build a bow recommending any one of them over the other. In fact I just built what feels like to me the smoothest bow I have ever pulled with claro walnut cores. Hmmmmmmmmm.
Opinions may vary and the world goes around.
God bless you all, Steve
Steve: If the draw force curves are identical, I would guess they would feel pretty much the same on the draw. However, wouldn't the physically lightest material eek out a few more fps just because there's less limb mass to move going forward?
QuoteOriginally posted by Bowbldr:
Been at this awhile now and in our design quietest and smoothest draw is foam cores and fiberglass and performs very well. Carbon is added mostly for stability and does gain a little speed but most for stability.. Our Max1or2 limbs Needs carbon to make the limb stable and with the right carbons does it very well. Wood or grass core are subject to moisture and will take it on no matter how well you seal them, Foam does not. We have had far less delams since we started using foam than we did with Bamboo in hot humid locations. Maple speed was about the same as the foam and 3fps faster than Bamboo. Maple was no where close in smooth feel to the foam or Bamboo, in our bows anyway.The only negative I can see after using foam using and shooting it in our bow for over 7 years, is it looks terrible under clear glass...But,,,,,,25 years at this and I'm still learning and waiting on the next best material to come out.
Bob
Bob,
My Max 1 carbon/foam limbs on my new Cheyenne B Leadwood riser are the best limbs/riser combo I've owned. It has the best combination of speed, quietness, deadness in hand and consistancy of accuracy of the 200+ bows I've owned over the past 13+ years. Please don't tell me if you discover the Max 2 limbs to be a significant improvement over the Max 1 limbs! ;) :)
Bill
Bod Morrison's foam cored 1 piece longbows are the smoothest and most pleasant bows I have ever shot. They leave nothing to be desired.
Having said that, I personally have avoided a foam cored bow for myself. Partly because I too have gotten caught up in this "best" syndrome...best core material, best arrow shafts, best broadhead, etc. ad nausea
This is NOT what attracted me to trad archery in the first place some 30 years ago, it was exactly the opposite reason. It was simplification and romance, it was POC & feathers, wood bows & wool, simple 2 blade BH's. Many times recently, I have forced myself to step back and reevaluate my motives.
Nothing wrong with wanting the latest and greatest...I believe it is truly human nature. Somehow though, with that motivation, I can't help but feel forever wanting and unfulfilled.
I own high tech trad bows (now there's an oxymoron) and make self bows, so I run the gamut.
Just some unsolicited thoughts.
Kris
QuoteThis is NOT what attracted me to trad archery in the first place some 30 years ago, it was exactly the opposite reason. It was simplification and romance, it was POC & feathers, wood bows & wool, simple 2 blade BH's. Many times recently, I have forced myself to step back and reevaluate my motives.
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Well said :thumbsup:
I personally like my Bigfoot triple carbon (no funny sound with the carbon) and foam cores better than any bow I've shot. It's the smoothest drawing, fastest and quietest (even without veneers..just carbon and foam) shooting bow I've shot. If one was being made back in the 50's when I fist started shooting recurves..that's the one I would have wanted then...most likely Crazy Horse the Indian would have wanted one too if he had the option.
The only carbon bows I've shot that made an out of the ordinary sound were ACS longbows. Their sound was something similar to that made by an acorn dropping into water.
I've had some bows I've loved that were made of actionboo, yew, red elm and walnut cores that were great shooting bows. But none of them come close to my Morrison Cheyenne with the Leadwood B riser and Max 1 carbon/foam D limbs. It is definitely the best bow I've ever owned/shot!
Bill