Trad Gang

So I am not necessarily new at Trad with 25 yrs+ . But I have a bizarre dilemma.

I posted on here this past year how my shooting has changed a little working on positive/solid anchor, new type of glove, and new string.

I shoot a 62" BW SA2, 55# at 30.5" draw. Depending on cold, position etc I draw 30.25 to 31.  

For the last 6 years or so I have been shooting a 31.5" GT 5575 with 240 gr up front.  All seemed well enough until last season and this summer I was not comfortable with the way certain arrows came out of the bow. I went back to the drawing board with a bareshaft.  I posted during that time how surprised I was that things were really off.  Compared to the past, I now had to cut my 5575 down to a mere 30.75" (Barely enough hang over- though now a built-in draw check ! LOL)  I also had to drop the point wt. down to just 170gr.  This all seemed to shoot fine though it now felt like I was walking a fence a bit, foc was down and the shaft still seemed a little weak at times.  

All during this time I would notice that occasional days and arrows would seem to go high- even a little out of control.  Honestly, I just figured my trad days were getting tougher as I am getting older.  I figured my form must be starting to suck a bit.  

So I had terrible penetration on a shot this fall, and I began to wonder again about wt. up front, my shooting etc.  

Yesterday I went out with some broadheads and did some shooting.  Oh boy!  What a mess.  Though I practiced with them in early fall, I was just in shock how some of them would just take off high and left.  Out of control!  I am glad I did not go hunting this week!!

Back to the drawing board, and sure enough- 5575s are way too weak.  A perfect executed shot may yield a good shot, but routine shooting was all over the place. I can not cut them down anymore, and I can not imagine going lighter on the point.

NOW THE BIZARRO thing!  I pulled out some GT 7595s I had and started from zero.  But this is just way too weird. . . . wondering what some of you have found???  

In bare shafting and sending some arrows through a piece of cardboard to see what the shaft was doing I am at a full 32" 7595 shaft with 470gr up front!  That is accurate- 470!!!   And I have yet to make a "too weak" shaft.  If anything, I still get some nock right on occasional shots.  And fletched shafts can look a little nose diving at times.  

Does any of this make sense to any of you??  Summary:  30.75" 5575 with 170gr up front is still too weak.  32" 7595 with 470gr up front is too stiff.

I am not sure what to do.   No doubt the bomber heavy 7595 shoot quiet and on mark out to 15 yds.  Beyond that- I am screwed if I have just the slightest short draw.  I also think that much wt. up front messes with the nock pt. ht.  

Thoughts??

The thing with GT Traditionals is that they jump straight from .400 spine to .300 spine...there is a common in between carbon spine of .340...I like the Easton Full Metal Jacket in that situation

DDave

I would stay with the 5575 s and lighten the point weight still. Maybe 145... 125. You have to do what will work.  Also. Maybe fletched and flying the arrows won't react the same way through (cardboard?) have someone with a good eye, watch the arrow flight. It may be you're paying too much attention to the paper method. Good luck and keep us posted!

weird. I draw the same length as you but at 62lbs ff skiny string but im not cut to center.  5575 worked well for me with 175 in front.  first thing I would try is a double nock set as this helped me, just read about it two days ago.  then start playing with your brace height with the 5575s.  I tried the 7595s and had the same result as you way to stiff.  
I suspect you are getting a false reading on the 5575s.  
let me know what you find out.

I find dramatic jumps in spine between 500, 400 and 300.  A lot more than the calculators and charts would indicate.  

Given you can't get the 7595 working with that much weight up front though, I wonder if you are really weak with the 5575.  All the FOC you get with the 7595 cold be a big factor in how it acts.  I know a lot of FOC has had me scratching my head before when looking at the arrow and bare shaft flight. All that weight just kind of drags that shaft like a string on a rock.

Try some bare shafting or paper tuning with a fletched 5575 arrow to see what is going on with that one. You may be over stiff and not weak.  I have shoot 30" plus 5575 shafts with more weight than that out of a BW 53@29. I think it liked 275 up front believe it or not.  Pile on more weight and raise your nock a ways to make sure you are not getting a weak looking kick off the shelf and then see what just point weight does to the flight keeping a high nock in the beginning.

Also try a bottom nock to make sure your arrow is not sliding down and kicking off the rest or tracking on the rest material edge. That can cause a lot of false weak and erratic flight issues.

If the 5575 is too weak for the point weight or arrow weight you need, build out the side plate a little.  1/16" will make a big difference.  Even a change from soft to hard plate makes a noticeable change.

If you just can't use the 5575 or the 7595, try the CE250, 340 or better yet get some AD trads.

I've had the same issue.  ICS bowhunter 340s sorted it out fine.

I need 3555s for my mid-40# bows and can shoot them with lighter tips out of my 50# bow, so I can't help all that much with 5575s. I do question a couple of statements, though.

You said the shots are high and left. Assuming (yeah, I know that's dangerous) you are right handed, that would indicate too stiff I would think.

And then you said they are "all over the place". I would think that would indicate a form/release problem, as my too stiff/too weak arrows still group fairly well, just not where I'm looking.

Just something to think about.

This is one of the reasons I switched to wood.  I have a long draw also and got tired of messing with tuning carbons....

I would think you should be able to get the 5575's to work though.

Also, when I was trying to get perfect arrow flight my form went to hell!  I was trying to see the flight of the arrow so bad until I'd pick my head up the instant I dropped the string.

I'd go with what you had working before and start checking all the basic stuff... brace height, nock position, side plate...one at a time though.


Lastly, if you still can't get good flight- call Steve @ Surewood and get a test pack!

Thanks much guys. I have racked my brain and shoulders on this (too much shooting!).

I like the idea of .340 spine so I can increase the total and foc wt.  May try that later.

Also- for your info. rather than build a frame for paper tuning I have found that I can place a large cardboard box a few feet in front of my big round bale and shoot through the bottom.  The tear on the cardboard tells me how the arrow is flying.    

Conclusion for now:  I pulled out the 5575s and dropped to a 125 gr. head with alum insert.  Though I do not like the low foc- they shoot pretty darn good.  Actually- makes for a super fast and flat arrow.  If I keep this route, I will need to re-visit the best penetrating heads.  Back to 2 blades I surmise.  Still wish I could bust through a shoulder blade though. . . . another frustrating story. . .

Anyone need 2 doz. GT7595 blems- 3 slightly used (2 fletched)and 3 wrapped and crested.  ??  The rest untouched.  $90 shipped.

Dan in KS

.340's are what you need bud....

Try the Beman Bowhunters if you want to try them out and spend much $$

I've found them to be between the GT 55/75 and 75/95

The Goldtip Black 7595's are 340 deflection, since you already have the GT components.

Gold tip ultralights or velocity come in 340.

Those 55/75's would would take 100grn point so I would say you are to weak with what you have up front.

I am no tuning expert but I have been at this for a while.

Remember you have been using your set-up for SIX YEARS...and now all of a sudden, it does not work.  Something has changed, most likely not you.  Do you really think you would have put up with crappy arrow flight for that long?  Not with your experience!

For what ever reason I find carbons to be extremely sensetive to nock height and brace height.  Very minor adjustments really do have a magnified effect on arrow flight.

I suspect it something very simple.  Go back to your fundamentals.

And just to polish up your form, you might consider some training with a clicker.  It demands a consistent draw length.  And you said you have about a 3/4" variance depending on....  That could be as much as 3 lb difference;something to think about.

I have been there, its so very frustrating!

It might be worth while to go back to your "old" way and see what happens.

Good luck, I feel for you.

Bob

I have found that some GT 7595 blems are way out of spine. The last doz. I bought did not have 2 arrows that would shoot the same. I would try some non blem shafts or switch to another brand shafts.

I've got a pile of. 340s here.  Would be happy to send you a few to try.

Would believe the ICS 300's would be a viable choice.

Estimate that the following specs would place you in the ball park. Note: Based on 12 strand FF string

ICS 300
Length ~ 31 5/8"s
Insert - 50 Grains
Point ~ 200 Grains
Total ~ 570 Grains

I had a similar experience with one recurve.  .340 arrow sharts were the answer.  Good luck!

Being new to trad for a little over a year I ended up buy all different kinds of arrows. I purchased some beeman carbons. Shot the heck out of them. As you know when your new to something, you dont always hit where your looking :-) anyways I was getting better, arrow placement getting tighter, form, release crisper. But then i noticed my arrows acting somewhat different. Thought it was my newbie form or something. Then i saw this youtube vid on carbon arrows. To always check them. I didnt know they could go bad. Well with me hitting rocks,plywood, fence posts, yadda yadda yadda, I ended up breaking them down. I did a flex test on my arrows and out of the original dozen 8, yes 8 snapped on me. I was verylucky not to get any broken arrows in my bow arm as i have seen. I cant say that my experience is pertinent to yours, but when I bought new carbons, my shots got tighter again. Abuse, neglect, regular shooting, whatever the case may have been, it def took its toll on the way my arows were flying. Just my 2 cents. Good luck, keep us posted

QuoteOriginally posted by damascusdave:
The thing with GT Traditionals is that they jump straight from .400 spine to .300 spine...there is a common in between carbon spine of .340...I like the Easton Full Metal Jacket in that situation

DDave

this is the reason I quit the GT Trads and went back to the black ones at .340-- problem solved and shooting great.

You will find that the "Nugent" GT 7595 are in fact .340" spine.

QuoteOriginally posted by Daniel G. Banting:
You will find that the "Nugent" GT 7595 are in fact .340" spine.

bingo.

I posted earlier about my gt trad experience and after I broke them all I got arrow dynamics wont be buying anything else

Biatholon- WOW.  I would gladly pay for shipping!  Would they be long enough?  I really need 31" or better if possible.

I will PM you.

"Though I practiced with them in early fall, I was just in shock how some of them would just take off high and left."

SOME is the key word there to me Dan.

I'd pick up some Easton FMJs (or any Easton shaft). Their quality and consistency is head and shoulders above all other brands combined from my experience.

Start with full length 340s and trim down if necessary. I leave mine full length with a 30" draw and tune between bows just with point weight.

The Black widow bows are cut way past center other wise you would have no problem shooting the 5575's out of them. Try building the side plate out a little. Should be able to put most if not all of your weight back up front too.

The .340 shaft is a good one for your set up because of the need for a stiffer spine due to the cut past center. Contrary to what we used to think, the nugent and camo 7595's are not .340. They were mistakenly listed that way on their site that way but that has been corrected.

Whenever you are shooting arrows that are just on the edge of proper tuning, you will experience those occasional flyers as they are more susceptible to form errors. Not nearly the case when you are well tuned.

If you find that you need a .340 shaft, your best money would be spent on CX heritage 350's. They are super tough and won't break the bank like some of the other shafts mentioned.
The bowhunters are ok, but really  just a cheep alternative to their otherwise overpriced shafts.

I sell every shaft mentioned in this thread (except arrow dynamics)and many more and I choose goldtip first and CX second and I get more free ones than I can loose or break in a year.

I wouldn't worry about your gold tips being blems either. That concern is unfounded.

You ever need more help, give us a call and we'll get you right without spending any money if possible.

Thanks, bigjim

Thanks again guys.  Some great input.  

One thing I noted from many responses here is that these shafts may just be more temperamental than I realized- that really frustrates me.  Frankly, part of the reason I shoot trad is it really is so much easier to manage than the techno world. If my set up is that sensitive I really do want to scrap it.  There is no way anyone can be perfectly consistent. As mentioned- even on anchor- just the way you hold your fingers can change an anchor easily by .50".  I turned back to trad over 25 years ago because of its simplicity. To me it was like shooting or throwing a ball;  off balance some times, hand-eye coordination, fluid, not so technical. . . etc.

Enough of my philosophising. . . sorry.  Going to try to make it work for the end of the season here.  But .340 and new shafts sounds like my next trial.  

Thanks again guys.  This on-line community continues to prove its invaluable nature.

Dan in KS

:clapper:

Thanks too Big Jim.  I bought all the shafts I shoot from you.  I also put in a decent size order from you the other day to help a friend set up his 3 boys with trad.  Debbie and Brent were AWESOME!!   Your response here reveals again why we are blessed to have you as a sponsor and business.

Dan Rudman (still in KS!   :)   )

We make changes for the better and sometimes not so much. Equipment has to change with them.

thanks and good luck, bigjim

I shoot 30" Victory VAP 350s out of my Morrison Cheyenne, 62", 45#@28" with Max 1 carbon/foam limbs.  The arrows have a 43 gr insert and 200 gr broadhead up front.  The combo weighs 483 gr and I get great flight out of the arrows.  You need something in the .340-.350 spine range.  Are you shooting a different string material and thread count than you did 5 or 6 years ago?

Bill

Jump off the deep end Dan ... get some 70/75 woodies, they shoot great out of all my 55# bows ... that is when I could pull back a 55# bow
Happy Holidays, Ken

ps ... that combo has had complete pass throughs on moose, elk, deer, bear, caribou, and rolled over a few turkeys too !!


    :archer2:

Hi

i have the same problem with my caribow slynx 59# @28.

5575s cut to 29 will carry no more than 250gr. 7595s at 31" wont fly with 375gr.

I suggest you move to GT Hunter XTs, .340 spine at full length. should tune wuth 300-400gr

Hey Dan I was having the same problem. I went to the CE heritage 250. They work better. Did those new strings cause these fits?

Ryan- you remember me? Great. You know- that is one of the things I did change. Went to the new strings last year.  I sought to slow it down a bit by putting on 4 total silencers.  Not sure. . . ??

WJ- still 16 strand as older string. May be a bit more skinny.  Sought to slow it down a bit with extra silencers.  ??

Ken- tried wood in the earlier years, but with an almost 31" draw I had a hard time finding consistent woodies.  Also, when I did get some to shoot the spine eventually weakened.  I just want arrows that I do not have to mess with!

Thanks for ALL the input guys.  Sounds like others have had some of this same conflict.  

Can not hardly believe it but Biathlonman (Brad) is sending me some .340s to try.  

You guys have been awesome.  Keep you posted.  Maybe even have the opp to post a late season  beast pic here.    :)      

Dan in KS

I didn't read all of the thread and I should, I know I'd learn something..

The shafts might have changed spine but I've had good luck with GT Blems..

Maybe build out your sideplate some and keep trying the 55/75's..  Sounds like the 75/95's are way stiff, no way I'd used 4-500 grains up front..

I struggle all the time with back tension and a good release.. If you happen to pluck the string occassionally all bets are off when you are bare shafting..

Of course I remember you Dan. The string caused it. I've had the same thing happen. I bet the. 340's work!

340s sound like the answer. I shoot ICS Hunter 340s out of my Fedora 560. 61# at 30". They are 31 1/2"with 300 up front.

Get yourself some tapered arrow dynamics traditionals. And you troubles are over! Tweak the point weight a little. It won't take long. The Black arrow dynamics tend to give the best arrow weight for whitetails. In the 630 Gr finished arrow range. The Wood grain shafts are 50 gr heavier.

I shoot a very similar weight and dl as you and I'm using the 5575s.  I put a 3" aluminum footing on them with 225 up front.  They are way weak without the footing.  Total arrow weight is on the light end, but they fly great and are still heavy enough.

Yes, there can be slight variances arrow to arrow.
If you need to weaken the spine, another option apart from loading up on the point, is to is to use weight tubes.

gringol- do I understand correctly:  A footing increases spine of the arrow?  Had not thought of that but makes sense if correct.

I'd stick with the 5575s with your original tip weight, put on a bear weather rest or other means to build out your side plate and see what it takes to get them flying well for you.  That way you don't have to change your heads.

X 2 on what Xtrema and Bob@helle said.  Good luck.   I know this arrow tuning stuff can be frustrating at times.

QuoteOriginally posted by KSdan:
gringol- do I understand correctly:  A footing increases spine of the arrow?  Had not thought of that but makes sense if correct.

Yes.  The footing keeps the footed portion of the shaft from bending and makes the arrow think it is shorter than it is.  The catch is that you have to put a longish footing on and will have to draw the footing onto the shelf.  I dont think that is an issue, but some people probably wouldnt like it.

Thanks again all. . . .Merry Christmas too!