Always experimenting with easiest ways to stay warm without bulk. I have done extremely well this fall including all day sits in the teens. With that- I did watch the recent installment of backcountry ed. posted here on TG. I noticed there the use of a nylon down vest. So- I have a question:
In my experimenting I tried a very lightwt. nylon primaloft vest this fall. No bulk and easy to carry along. Now this works great as a little added warmth as a simple OUTER layer on a side of the mt. glassing for animals. HOWEVER- I used it here in KS on whitetail stand over my merino but UNDER the rest of my outer layers. One of those sits I noticed feeling cool and even a bit damp. My cell phone in my pocket even seemed a little steamed up. It got me wondering. . .do you think the nylon could prevent my body from breathing well?
Just curious- any experience or confirmation with my possible findings.
I wear a light weight goose down vest over my merino wool base layer and LL Bean wool shirt. Jacket then goes over it all. I only put the goose down vest on when I get to the stand. Never have felt clammy.
Have had luck with a shearling denium vest under outer coat. Breathes, keeps core area warm--works for me. Thanks, Roy
I use a wool vest,and it works very well.
KSdan.... I had a down coat from Cabelas that I loved dearly for just about everything, EXCEPT stand sitting..... I found that when sitting the down gets compressed and you have cold spots. As you know the secret to down's warmth is air trapping when it is all fluffed up, not worth a hoot when compressed IMHO. My lower back would get cold from the down getting compressed while sitting and that is an area you do not want to get cold ! Once those blood filled kidneys get cold your brain gets the message that your core temp is dropping, next thing you know your hands and feet get cheated out of blood and you are done !
My mid layer is my Ulfrotte' wool vest I found on *bay for $ 5 !!! Or a Cabelas very heavy 80/20 wool / nylon sweater I got for a song as well. I also have Goodwill pure merino or cashmere sweaters that I get for less than $5. I know some will take the Goodwill sweaters and cut the arms off and make vests so your arms do not get all bulked up. Switch to wool my friend.
Hey Dan, I can't recall noticing that the down vest I have wasn't "breathing".
I would be interested in what you did to help you do "extremely well this fall including all day sits in the teens"...
I guess it don't get real cold here in Georgia but I'm noticing that the older I get the colder it seems!
thanks, Rick
I have an L.L. Bean Sherpa poly fleece lined wool vest with a tall collar. Makes a great mid-layer over a wool sweater and under a wool or poly outer shell.
I wear it to work under my A-2 leather flight jacket this time of year. Adds 20°F to that jacket.
I wear a full long sleeve down micro therm shirt from Edie Bauer when it's really cold under my coat and over wool under layers. I'm never clammy. Even if I sweat the wool takes care of it. I used to use a down vest in the same way and it was good too. The only time I have felt clammy is when I wear synthetics because they are hydrophobic and don't remove the water from the skin, so I quit wearing them as a base layer.
I have plenty of options. . . so thanks for the input. I was really curious about the nylon though- as this was a new experience with moisture. As to what my routine clothes are for teens and all day:
Bottoms: 1st base- Light Patagoina (or other similar). 2nd base- Lt. Merino wool. Then Polartec Union suit (without sleeves). Outer Bottoms: light wool pants. Upon arrival at stand I have a XXXL (My normal is a L-XL) very loose (almost like pajamas) polar fleece pants that I put on over everything else.
Top: 2 ltwt. Merino wool sweaters (I buy them at Goodwill or Salvation Army). The Polartec Union upper that is like a vest.
Top Outer: Upon arrival I put on a woolrich med wt. sweater. Predator fleece/windstop jacket (non-insulated). Day One ASAT Fleece/Windstop Vest.
I have perfect ltwt. gloves to shoot and hold bow while use handmuff with chem. warmers. Wear 2 hats (as needed) and a fleece balaclava (with ears cut out- I like to hear!) I also have a small pocket sewn in the balaclava where I can put a chem hand warmer on the back of my neck if needed.
If in teens or below I wear a small hand sized bag around my neck (like a necklace) with a chem hand warmer in it (puff clothes away from chest and the warmer acts like a little furnace ).
Feet: Trying different boots but typically end up with additional chem warmers in the toes for the teen all day sits.
2 other notes:
1) I have found that just a small wool sweater or blanket tied around my waist (like a kilt) and laying over my lap and knees can make a BIG difference. I have used this instead of the extra fleece pants.
2) Though walking in is not too bad (within 1/2 mile or so), and there is no bulk hindering my shooting- I am still SERIOUSLY thinking of making my own Heater Body suit style gear for this next year. This solves the many layer need AND the need for ultra big bulky boots. I have read Ryan's past posts on his Manitoba custom suit and I am convinced it could be the ticket- even below zero. Now to find ASAT or Predator Brown fleece. :)
I think anything made with nylon will not breathe very well, especially if it's cold enough for the moisture to freeze on the outer layer.
Vests add a great deal of warmth.
My wife makes me a pullover hood with a small eye opening. It's long enough to pull down to about armpit level and made of polarfleece windbloc. Unbelieveable how much it helps.
About your synthetic vest and moisture, i would check your outer layers more than the vest by itself. The windstoppers and similars membranes are not fully breathables.The Windpro(non a membrane) by Polartec is more breathable than others as Windstopper (membrane) by Gore. Add one windstop vest over one windstop jacket and probably, you will have a breathability problem. Obviously it depends of the situation and the person.
Sorry for my english
I was wondering the thing, Jorge. Does using multiple layers of goretex/windstopper cause heat and moisture build up? If it's that cold, I usually scoot a little closer to my woodstove to help keep it warm!!
Selfbow, is not easy to me explain this in english but yes. The breathability of the gore/windstopper is not the 100% and if the temperature outside is very cold, the breathability is more lower, the moisture of your body will no go outside and really will be cooled inside the clothes. In extreme weather you could have ice inside your clothes.
And windproof clothes are not as warms as many people thinks, are designed to cut the wind, use them for this and use insulations clothes to heat you.
Nylon does not breathe, period. It's major benefit is that it's strong, and the feathers don't poke through.
I agree with Jorge and huntryx. That's been my experience as well. That's why now all my layers are wool, though some of those garments do have mesh (not solid) nylon liners that help knock down the wind.
Ideally you use Windbloc etc. for your outer layer. Inside it looses much of it's effectiveness since the outer layers will have air moving thru too quickly.
We bought a bunch of material at $4 per yard years ago and Windbloc is very effective at keeping you warm in high winds IF you layer up underneath. By itself not so much.
Wool felt works a treat. Hard to find clothes made of it though. Wool garments that have been through the fulling process also work well at cutting the wind.
If you're game, buy a wool garment that's a couple of sizes too large and run it through the toughest cycle on the washing machine and drier. The reason wool shrinks if you treat it like that is that it felts to itself. No guarantee on the sizing at the end, but it'll be warm and windproof.
Best hand warmers I've ever had were a pair of Dachstein boiled wool mittens. Temperature around freezing, strong wind, mittens so wet you could wring a mug full of water out of them, hands still warm.
I learned long ago that
1) my arms do not get cold as easily as the rest of me and need less covering.
2) whether I use multiple layers or a single huge coat, my arms bulk up too much for comfort and flexibility in shooting.
An easy answer was to use vests. Multiple vests. I generally wear a base long john, then a filson wool vest, then a wool sweater (mil surplus), then my Asbell wool pull over, then a wool vest with built in wind stopper and some sort of lining. This one has deep lined pockets that are perfect for inserting hands. On bottom, I like a pair of heavy weight wool mil surplus pants.
So far I have done well enough with wearing a glove liner and very light weight camo glove for bow hand and a glove liner (cut to let three fingers show) under my shooting glove. I use those pockets a lot, with a small heater pack in each.
I find a 1/2 or 3/4 face mask of regular weight material, with a large hole cut out right in front of my mouth, to be invaluable in keeping my face warmer, and also cutting the breezes down my neck. The large hole lets me feel anchor better, and also lets my breath escape, instead of going up my face and bothering my eyes and binoculars when in use.
I tend to use a Columbia camo wool boonie hat, that is modified.. I tack sewed the brim up in the front so it doesn't contact my bowstring. The rest flops. If really cold I put on a do rag under the hat ( I am.... hair impaired, so the noggin top gets cold easily.)
So far, that works for me. Looking at more foot options, as so far, that is my weak point.
ChuckC
I am not a fan of windstopper materials. I have a pullover, that is not only very noisy, but in my opinion, not effective at all. I have used it as a outerlayer, and still felt that cold air coming through. It was pricey and not worth it. It is on the bottom of the clothes bin. I use a layering system that includes wool, Polartec Union Suit, and bibs, with my last layer being a vest from RavenWear. Super warm and can go all day.
Cabela's has their Wooltimate with Windshear on sale for a good price right now. I've had the fleece stuff with it and it gets quieter with use/washings. Lots of good reviews about it.
Thanks for the input, though it got off a little about wool, vests, windbloc, etc. (Probably my fault for post title.) Not really the question as I wear vests, wool, windblocker, and fleece-and as stated I stay warm.
I was more curious of any experience with a nylon vest like down or prima loft. I was particularly curious after I saw the backcountry vid posted here on the Gang. Again, my personal experience (and VERY limited) this fall using my vest as an under-layer makes me wonder if the nylon kept my body from breathing well. I sure got cold and clammy that particular day.
Also for what it is worth- not ALL windblock and design is the same. I have looked at many of the Cabelas items and I too think they are far too noisy. HOWEVER- I am VERY impressed with my Predator Jacket (which the designers claim they have a different approach to it). It is DEAD quiet and works. I am also VERY impressed with my DayOne insulated fleece vest with windblock of some type.
Thanks for all the responses
Dan
I never wear cotton or nylon in the cold for exactly the reason you observed.
QuoteOriginally posted by Roger Norris:
I never wear cotton or nylon in the cold for exactly the reason you observed.
X2
Down is very warm and works well, but when coupled with nylon it can make you sweat with little effort. Then its time to get cold.
It may have a place in the field and many have had great comfort because of it. I have been in many different parts of the country and for what I do, I choose wool. Started adding wool to my gear more than 20 years ago and I guess everybody knows where I stand with wool today.
CTT
Wool, wool, wool. Wool or silk underwear, wool sweater, Asbell hooded pullover and Two Tracks vest.
I am very happy with my Two Tracks vest and their wool shoe liners.
Same here KSdan..... love my Predator Fall Gray fleece coat with wind blocking layer in it. VERY QUIET and worn as a outer layer with wool underneath I am toasty on windy days. Blessed to have good warm clothes now. I sure remember back in my younger years and how cold I got some days not having the proper clothes. Depending on temps,winds,rain, etc, I choose my gear accordingly.
KSdan,
My experience with Nylon is similar to wearing a plastic bag or heavy rubber rain gear. It just doesn't breath.
I remember in the 1970s when down vest with nylon shell was all the rage. You're warm at first, but with any activity, you're soaked.
A good way to die from hypothermia when it is very cold is, to wear cotton thermo longjohns, under a cotton flannel shirt, under a down nylon lined coat; then hike a mile or more and try to sit for a few hours. Even if you leave the coat open when walking, your back will get wet. Nothing but wool is the only way I do it anymore.
So I see some of you observed the same result I had. While the packable nylon vest with down or prima-loft seems like the holy grail for easy/ltwt. warmth- fact is, it causes problems with moisture. I think a guy would be far better off with a wool or fleece vest.
Thanks for all the input.
Dan in KS
I like most kinds of wool. Merino base layers, Asbell mid layers, Good Will or equal Cashmeres...all good.
Wooltimate...I'm a fan...It's warm! Wears like iron!
It's been noted several times, and worth repeating. Before you badmouth the windshear in your Wooltimate, wash it a few times.
Also...when new it may seem a bit noisy to you, but do you really think the animals can hear it?
I maintain that if you move slow enough to avoid visible detection, there is not apt to be much noise.
Too good a product to worry about it's noise...esp after a few washings.
QuoteOriginally posted by KSdan:
2 other notes:
1) I have found that just a small wool sweater or blanket tied around my waist (like a kilt) and laying over my lap and knees can make a BIG difference. I have used this instead of the extra fleece pants.
2) Though walking in is not too bad (within 1/2 mile or so), and there is no bulk hindering my shooting- I am still SERIOUSLY thinking of making my own Heater Body suit style gear for this next year. This solves the many layer need AND the need for ultra big bulky boots. I have read Ryan's past posts on his Manitoba custom suit and I am convinced it could be the ticket- even below zero. Now to find ASAT or Predator Brown fleece. :)
Dan,
Can you tell me about this Manitoba custom suit or provide a link where I could find the instructions?
Thanks,
James
Dan, was the cell phone in the pocket on the outside or inside if it was on the outside, everything was breathing quite well.
Most insulations, especially down and primaloft work by trapping air between the "fibers". The more "fluff", the warmer they are. When you compress them under a heavy or tight layer(s) they won't work as well.
If you like the Primaloft on the outside, Sitka Gear has the Fanatic Vest and also has the same in a jacket. They are silent and WARM. They have bibs as well. I've sat till noon in -4 in the jacket/bibs and gone right back out till dark after a quick lunch break and been cozy as can be.
Hey Steve- The phone was in a pocket inside my predator fleece which is UNDER an outer Dayone fleece vest. My merino base layer (under the primaloft vest) seemed to be damp too. I am impressed with the Primaloft vest for an outer layer (used it in in AK on your recommend!). But I tried it under my fleece here this fall (experimenting with a lt wt. sleeveless insulation layer for extreme cold) and it made things complicated I believe. Also- prompting of my post had to do with the Backcountry vid on staying warm. In light of my experience I am not so sure of putting a nylon type vest UNDER your outer layer.
Thanks
Dan
James- Ryan (Manitoba Stickflinger) made his own Heater Body suit. He wanted a specific camo though I am not sure what else he modified. He did send me some pics of the finished suit. I will have to develop my own pattern. The Heater Body suit is over $300 I believe (and not my choice of camo either). I think I can make one for 1/3-1/2 of that and either in ASAT or Predator.
The concept is really not new as we used old ltwt. sleeping bags years ago in northern MI for stand hunting. I am revisiting old knowledge here- but I like the idea of not needing to bundle up with numerous layers. Go in ltwt, sweat free and put on the suit while on stand.
Dan
Roger that Dan. You might use that cell phone (or some much LESS expensive object) and experiment to see exactly which layer is not breathing as well as it should. Outer layer outer pocket, then outer layer inner pocket, then the next layer in and so on. Primaloft in my experience works almost as good wet as it does dry.
Good luck on those late season deer.