I was just reading some information that Rob has posted about Harrison longbows, instructions from the bowyer on care of his bows. He states his bows come with an endless loop string and warrante would be void if a flemish twist string was used. That an endless loop string is much better at transfering energy to the arrow etc... How do you guys think the two compare? Can you get a little more performance out an endless loop?
Warranty would be void?? Seriously? The mantra is that endless gain a few fps speed at cost of increased noise, but you'll get guys arguing back and forth about that. I've shot both didnt notice much difference but my preference is Flemish w/padded loops. Skinny Flemish largely solve the speed difference issues I think. Maybe he does the warranty thing cause of the belief that an endless is stronger size proportionally? Weird.
Is there such a thing as a skinny endless string? Just curious.
I have made some skinny endless strings,I just added extra strands to the end before serving it.I just run some extra string around the end posts and then serve and cut those strands off.I had a Harrison HSS awhile back,I shot both a flemish twist and endless on it.Usally an endless string is alittle noiser then a padded loop flemish.I made up an endless out of Angel Majesty a 12 strand and it was as quiet as the flemish twist on it.I had thought he recommended an endless for the performance aspect,didn't hear about it voiding the warranty?
Rob has it posted in the How To forum, first subject.....maybe Im reading it wrong, take a look.
Flemish are cool, endless are ugly :)
QuoteOriginally posted by Todd Cook:
Flemish are cool, endless are ugly :)
Thats funny right there! My trad mentor says the same thing.
That instructional pamplet for Harrison bows is poorly written and seems incomplete transitioning from the first to second paragragh on Bow Strings, but as you stated it is there. Isn't there a "y" in bowyer?
:readit:
Kirk Lavender please comment...
Link to Harrison pamplet (http://www.tradgang.com/docs/jh.pdf)
~CB
QuoteOriginally posted by Todd Cook:
Flemish are cool, endless are ugly :)
:clapper:
OK Keith i'll bite.... The endless loop basically has how many ever stands you want that run straight through the loop with no twist, and is padded to desired thickness witch usually runs 12-16 strands depending on material used.
I'll tell you why some bowyers get nervous about Flemish twist strings is because if they are twisted up too much they can cause limb twist in some cases.
If a guy doesn't pay attention to exactly how the string is laying on the tip of the bow, it can easily get off center with a Flemish string that is twisted up pretty tight. An endless loop is typically made with very few twists per inch.
i've had brand new bows that i knew were dead straight act like they had some limb tracking issues by twisting a string up too tight before. i took the same string and flipped it 180 degees on the loop, and it was fine....
Most archers i know check how their strings are laying out closely every time they string it up.
So the bottom line is... i love Flemish strings myself. but you gotta pay attention to what you are doing, and make sure you've got a good even twist to the string without over twisting them, and make damn sure they are laying in the string notches evenly.
Typically you'll never have that problem with an endless loop string.
there's .02 cents worth.
One well known bowyer and PAA instructor remarked to me one day that you never see Olympic archers shooting Flemish twist strings and that must mean they feel they are less accurate than Flemish twist.
QuoteOriginally posted by Todd Cook:
Flemish are cool, endless are ugly :)
. If you want endless and like the look of Flemish, then make your endless with two colors, twist it (which you should always do anyhow) and, voila, you have an endless that looks like a Flemish. Personally, I don't think it makes a hill of beans difference which you use. In the real world, even if there is a measurable difference in speed, noise, etc., at 15-20 yards, is it a REAL difference?
Endless strings are much easier to make and to keep making consistently for me. If you are a hunter, like me, I use Bow Hush type silencers on the string so all that shows is the served loop. Over many years of shooting I think that endless strings have a slight speed/accuracy advantage. But an average archer/bowhunter would not notice. Either way, a poorly made string, regardless of its type, is a poor string (read what KIrkill said) and a good string is a very good thing to have on your bow. By the way, I have never seen a hair's width of difference in silencing either type of string. Flemish strings tend to be quieter simply because the ones I have seen typically have more strands, are therefore heavier and quieter.
I read that pamphlet in the link. I'm not familiar with the bows, but imagine they are excellent. If I were the bowyer, though,I would give some serious thought to getting a high school kid to re-write it for me. The old saying about how "You only get one chance to make a good first impression" is doubly true in marketing. I'd be more than a little embarrassed having someone read those instructions if they were mine.
And the warranty being void if a Flemish twist string is used, and advising against using a bow stringer of any kind?????????????
QuoteOriginally posted by Todd Cook:
Flemish are cool, endless are ugly :)
Ditto :clapper:
QuoteOriginally posted by Bladepeek:
I read that pamphlet in the link. I'm not familiar with the bows, but imagine they are excellent. If I were the bowyer, though,I would give some serious thought to getting a high school kid to re-write it for me. The old saying about how "You only get one chance to make a good first impression" is doubly true in marketing. I'd be more than a little embarrassed having someone read those instructions if they were mine.
And the warranty being void if a Flemish twist string is used, and advising against using a bow stringer of any kind?????????????
+2
QuoteOriginally posted by Thumper Dunker:
QuoteOriginally posted by Bladepeek:
I read that pamphlet in the link. I'm not familiar with the bows, but imagine they are excellent. If I were the bowyer, though,I would give some serious thought to getting a high school kid to re-write it for me. The old saying about how "You only get one chance to make a good first impression" is doubly true in marketing. I'd be more than a little embarrassed having someone read those instructions if they were mine.
And the warranty being void if a Flemish twist string is used, and advising against using a bow stringer of any kind?????????????
+2 [/b]
Ron & Tim,
Do a search on Harrison bows. They are some of the finest looking bows out there and retain significant value. Known for their beefy straight grips, beautiful horn overlays and being real shooters. Usually over $1,000 used.
Thanks for coming through brother Kirk! Never thought you could put enough twist in a Flemish to tweek a limb tip. Always learning great stuff on this site.
I have witnessed people twist strings that are slightly too long for their bow to make them fit. Perhaps that isn't such a good idea...
:campfire:
Chromebuck, I never criticized the bows. I have looked up a few and read the interview with Jack Harrison. I understand Jim Fisk is now making the bows and probably maintaining the artistic design and quality of Jack's production. His longbow actually sounds remarkably like my Border Griffon GL and I'm very impressed with that bow.
It was the poor quality brochure I criticized and I still question the logic of discouraging bow stringers and as was stated earlier, a poor string is a poor string and a good string - Flemish twist or endless loop - is a good string.
Ron, It's all good and we are on the same page. I was purely going by the second sentence in your post. You are apparently as familiar as I with these bows.
For a bow of the caliber that Jack was putting out you'd think the brochure might have been run by someone for proofreading for sure.
~CB
In the original warranty, and in his book (I have a copy), Harrison had a bit to say about the superiority of endless vs. flemish. He not only voided the warranty if you used flemish, he voided it if you used polyester ("dacron").
To put it mildly, I disagree with what he said. That stuff was plain off the wall.
Properly made, there's little difference in performance, if any. Endless is usually noisier, especially on a recurve, but either one will do the job just fine.
Never saw a string twist a limb either. Heard that claim made about a 72# longbow once, but it was pure bunk (I held and shot the bow).
I have seen folks shooting strings that had so much twist they coiled up when the bow was unstrung. I suppose if the draw weight was light enough and/or the limbs...well, the only word I can think of is flimsy...flimsy enough, and the string was twisted way beyond what a normal shooter would use, maybe it could.
You can twist an endless just like you can twist a flemish though--in either case, that would be putting the wrong length string on a bow--can't blame the string for user error.
Chad
I hoped you would chime in Chad, thanks. Brother Kirk, I believe, was saying if the string has a LOT of twists and you were not careful when stringing the bow the loop can sit at an angle in the limb tip and not run down the center of the limb, and may induce a limb twist, especially in a recurve, that sounds plausible. So user error on a couple of counts and possibly a poorly designed bow.
QuoteSo user error on a couple of counts and possibly a poorly designed bow.
I agree 100%. Just wanted to point out that in a case such as that, the string or type of string wasn't the culprit.
Not familiar with the bowyer or his bows. But are his longbows strings fast flight or D50? We use D97 12 stand strings and never had a problem. While your still within the warranty do what he says. Then after that its up to you.
Don't know what Fisk uses. Harrison would void the warranty if you used B-50.
QuoteOriginally posted by dbd870:
quote:
Originally posted by Todd Cook:
Flemish are cool, endless are ugly :)
:thumbsup:
If you guys don't know who Jack Harrison is you must not have been doing this for very long. Finest longbow ever made and yes he has his own thoughts about what worked best on his bow. As for the warranty, does't really matter since he hasn't made bows in 4 or 5 years now.
I should add that I use flemish strings on some of my Harrison's without issue and I've never worried about breaking a bow. I'll see if Leo will jump on this thread and answer the original question.
Like Dave said just use two different colors in your endless.
This is from Harrison's book.
QuoteA bow strung with a continuous-loop bowstring shot the same arrow an average of eight to ten feet per second faster than a bow strung with a Flemish-twist bowstring. I also noted there was more hand shock and vibration with a Flemish-twist bowstring.
Obviously his tests were skewed. If you know what you are doing, you can make an endless that is faster, or a flemish that is faster. Both strings equally well made will show little to no performance differences. There have been flight records set with flemish strings.
Besides the inaccuracies, he threw in what could very well be considered an insult to anyone who likes flemish.
QuoteFinally, as a point of trivial history, it became vogue to shoot Flemsish-twist bowstrings as a desperate attempt for some over-zealous apologists to return to "tradition" when compound bows came into being.
If you prefer flemish it's because you are an "over-zealous apologist" making a "desparate attempt"?
Although I have shot endless, and may still shoot one from time to time, I always preferred flemish because they are (for me) quieter and easier to adjust for fine tuning. I've never been one to worry about what is considered "vogue"...
Again though, that was Harrison. No idea what Mr. Fisk's thoughts are on the subject.
Back to the O.P. Other than voiding the warranty, the rest is simply not true. You can affect performance much more with your release than you will see between an equally well made endless vs. flemish.
I suggest that anyone wondering compare for themselves.
Chad
I am glad that this is thread came. I put a backup string that had to many twist on a recurve that I sold. The string came out a bit long, but it was just a backup anyway so I spun it down to match the bow before I gave it to the kid that used it for a year. I believe that a flemish string that has too many turns has too much spring and torque in it. I may be over thinking it, but that seems correct in my head.
I generally shoot your strings Chad . On my ACS I have found the endless strings to be faster, more consistent, more durable, and easier to tune than a flemish string. I have no axe to grind on the issue but I agree everyone should try both before jumping to a conclusion.
There are always exceptions to the rule--that's why I make both. In general though, the difference is minimal.
The difference isn't huge, but it is enough for me to make a preference.