I've heard time and time again that longbows with reflex limbs are less forgiving....the more reflex the less forgiving....the farther the tips are in front of the grip when unstrung the less forgiving...
...can anyone tell me why?
Thank you
One reason is that most deflex/reflex bows, particularly those with extreme reflex tend to be shorter with thinner wider limbs, vis a vis a Hill style bow, and thus more susceptible to bow and string string torque. In truth, though, the differences are rather small, not noticeable by the average shooter, IMO.
QuoteOriginally posted by Zradix:
I've heard time and time again that longbows with reflex limbs are less forgiving....the more reflex the less forgiving....the farther the tips are in front of the grip when unstrung the less forgiving...
...can anyone tell me why?
Thank you
It's a false statement.... Period...You cannot stereotype bows anymore than to can stereotype people bro. The shape of a bow unstrung is meaningless. It's where the limbs are bending that matters.
Now the grip placement in direct proportion to the limbs location fore or aft, is another story... if you have the grip forward of the limbs, or in line with the limbs vs a reflexed grip, consistent hand placement is much more critical because any torque is amplified in a reflexed grip location..
The old school attitude that long bows are more forgiving than short bows is not really true either. The folks that make these claims haven't ever spent any time with a well designed, well balanced R/D long bow.
I agree with Orion.
This is a link that may help explain why. It talks about bow design of recurves and longbows.
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...38594407830710
Thanks for the responses guys.
I understand what you're saying about grip forward vs grip reflex Kirk. That's easy to replicate with simple experiments.
I tend to think you're both right.
I just can't wrap my head around WHY a reflex limb would make it less forgiving either....I mean when comparing a stable and well designed bow with more or less reflex in the limbs.
Thank you
Cyred4d..
That link doesn't work for me buddy.
I'd like to give it a look
What Kirk said
Kirk times 2. How the limbs bend and stability is due to a lot of things besides deflex unstrung. What matters is fit, design, tapers, brace stability all of which determine how the bow shoots.
I believe what we can say is that if you build two different designs , say a D and R and a straight or String follow the exact same way then the longbow will inheriently be more stable than the D and R. However we can and do build bows today that are both Stable and Fast.
God bless, Steve
Sorry about that. I did not realize it was a tiny url.
Try this.
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~archery/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Fundamentals-of-the-Design-of-Olympic-Recurve-Bows.pdf
I do not agree with the premise. Not true in my experience and I own and shoot all sorts of bows.
I just can't wrap my head around WHY a reflex limb would make it less forgiving either....I mean when comparing a stable and well designed bow with more or less reflex in the limbs.
Quit trying bro.... reflex in a limb doesn't make it less forgiving.... period.
Where you are going to run into guys that decline to accept that fact, and it is a fact, not an opinion, is from guys that are dyed in the wool Hill style long bow shooters that try to shoot an R/D long bow using the same type grip technique.....
Shooting a straight grip with a very low brace height requires learning how to "grip the bow" just right with your knuckles rotated forward a bit more for arm clearance and are typically balanced for heeling down more so than most R/D long bows are today......
So for these guys that love the Hill bows, and lord knows there are a bunch of them.... The longer straight bows are naturally going to feel a lot more forgiving. Especially the guys with longer draw lengths....
If you shot both kinds of bows with an open hand neither one would have a torque issue, but the Hill style would kick you like a mule shooting open handed. They are not designed to be shot that way..... So it's not that one bow is more forgiving or not, it's matching your shooting style to the right bow, or shifting your grip around until you find out what she likes....
THANK YOU!
Really great explanation there Kirk.
Thanks for the link cyred4d. interesting reading there too.
I appreciate the help guys.
:thumbsup:
Define forgiving?
I'm not new at this either (30 plus years traditional). This is one of claims everyone likes to make. I tend to agree with Kirkll.
Forgiving or not you can learn to shoot any bow as accurately as you are capable of IMO.
Enjoy the process and learn from your efforts.
Kris
just because I shoot every bow perfect doesn't mean they are all easy to shoot,, seriously I don't want rumors making it back to my ole lady that my bows are all easier to shoot than I tell her they are!
Okay, somebody straighten me out here.
What constitutes reflex/deflex in limbs? I've always thought of those terms as they relate to riser design, with a reflexed riser having the limbs butts more forward-mounted, over or even in front of the bow hand and a deflexed riser having the limbs attaching more rearward, behind the bow hand. If this analogy is "all wet", just tell me, my wife does it all the time, lol. But with that analogy the reflexed riser limbs would have a power stroke that would be(for lack of a better term)more linearly forward compared to a deflexed that would be comparatively more up and down. I'm thinking of similarity to the recent "horizontal limb" technology of wheelie bows where the limb movement is now almost entirely up and down, but on a much, much smaller scale. And I know this is a gross oversimplification, but it seems like it would be further corroborated by the limb preload at brace, which I would think would be greater with the reflexed riser design. Thanks Kirk and Sixby, that's why you guys that build 'em need to enlighten us dummies that shoot 'em!
Just for clarification on the grip statement. Straightlimbed , straight grip longbows DO NOT HAVE to be gripped a certain way. They are about all I shoot anymore but I grip my superkodiak, my hybrids , my compound (when I still had it) and my mild r/d bows the exact same. Naturally a higher wrist grip will naturally adjust your wrist a bit compared to a straight grip and same with a medium grip but there is no gross difference in how I grip them,
Arne moe demonstrated this perfectly.
Go back and read the link that's cred4d posted. That's math and science, not opinion. Analysis is primarily with recurves, but shows geometrically why and how longer bows are more forgiving than shorter bows, and why thinner,stacked lamination limbs on longbows are more forgiving, ie, tolerant of sideways torque on the string than flatter, wider recurve limbs. Sure design has a lot to do with it, and one can do a lot with design and materials to make the more radical designs more forgiving. And a person's shooting experience and ability play into it as well as to whether it's even perceived or not. And, as I noted above, the differences are more theoretical, than practical. Most shooters probably can't tell the difference. But there is a difference, all other things being equal, as Sixby notes.
I'm not new to this game either. I've been shooting sticks for nearly 60 years, and built a lot of selfbows and glass laminated bows in the past. I shoot highly r/d longbows, mild r/d longbows, Hill style longbows, selfbows and recurves. My current preference is the extreme r/d longbow. It's as smooth to draw as a hill style, probably smoother, certainly a lot faster, but not as forgiving of my shooting faults as a Hill.
Oh, and to address the actuall question, I agree with Kirk and the rest, I feel a well designed r/d bow is no less forgiving that anything else. I've had quite a few and they were all very very user friendly.
QuoteOriginally posted by olddogrib:
Okay, somebody straighten me out here.
What constitutes reflex/deflex in limbs? I've always thought of those terms as they relate to riser design, with a reflexed riser having the limbs butts more forward-mounted, over or even in front of the bow hand and a deflexed riser having the limbs attaching more rearward, behind the bow hand. If this analogy is "all wet", just tell me, my wife does it all the time, lol. But with that analogy the reflexed riser limbs would have a power stroke that would be(for lack of a better term)more linearly forward compared to a deflexed that would be comparatively more up and down. I'm thinking of similarity to the recent "horizontal limb" technology of wheelie bows where the limb movement is now almost entirely up and down, but on a much, much smaller scale. And I know this is a gross oversimplification, but it seems like it would be further corroborated by the limb preload at brace, which I would think would be greater with the reflexed riser design. Thanks Kirk and Sixby, that's why you guys that build 'em need to enlighten us dummies that shoot 'em!
Here is a r/d longbow...my Kanati.
Unstrung:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/30coupe/Kanati%20Longbow/MyKanati-5.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/30coupe/media/Kanati%20Longbow/MyKanati-5.jpg.html)
...and strung:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/30coupe/Kanati%20Longbow/MyKanati-6.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/30coupe/media/Kanati%20Longbow/MyKanati-6.jpg.html)
By the way, it is VERY forgiving! And as Kirk said, that is a FACT!
I think forgiveness of a particular shooting fault is what makes a bow forgiving for that person. I can say for certain that a flimsy tipped recurve can be more affected by an off balance release than a string follow self bow or well tillered Hill style longbow. Also, I have noticed that a hybrid style short bow shows more variation in arrow speeds at varied draws than a Hill style longbow. If one shoots with Hill form one will like Hill style bows. If one shoots with a straighter arm or a more static style one will like a hybid better. If one likes to have a more forgiving release one will like a longer bow, I am not so certain that the final shape of the limb makes as much difference as good tillering and a wider string angle.
QuoteOriginally posted by Orion:
Go back and read the link that's cred4d posted. That's math and science, not opinion. Analysis is primarily with recurves, but shows geometrically why and how longer bows are more forgiving than shorter bows, and why thinner,stacked lamination limbs on longbows are more forgiving, ie, tolerant of sideways torque on the string than flatter, wider recurve limbs. Sure design has a lot to do with it, and one can do a lot with design and materials to make the more radical designs more forgiving. And a person's shooting experience and ability play into it as well as to whether it's even perceived or not. And, as I noted above, the differences are more theoretical, than practical. Most shooters probably can't tell the difference. But there is a difference, all other things being equal, as Sixby notes.
I'm not new to this game either. I've been shooting sticks for nearly 60 years, and built a lot of selfbows and glass laminated bows in the past. I shoot highly r/d longbows, mild r/d longbows, Hill style longbows, selfbows and recurves. My current preference is the extreme r/d longbow. It's as smooth to draw as a hill style, probably smoother, certainly a lot faster, but not as forgiving of my shooting faults as a Hill.
That article was a pretty decent explanation of limb stability and energy storage, as well as how "Modern Recurves" using a carbon fiber weave matrix helps with torsional stability.... The theory behind changing the geometry and stabilizing a more radical hook in a recurve limb is very real and very necessary...
But.....That was written in 2008 and the advancements made in today's "Modern recurve" and R/D long bows in the last 5 years are pretty amazing....
We had a huge argument on the australian bowhunting forum about bow names (longbow/recurve/ deflex/ reflex etc) which I wont bore you with but what seems to be universally accepted is that bows like the big jim and the toelke whip etc are "Deflex/reflex" as opposed to "reflex/deflex" the reason being that the description starts from the riser, so the limnb first deflexes toward the archer, then reflexes away from the archer, hence deflex/ reflex.
please feel free to call your bow whatever you like, im not going to debate the point, just thought it was worth a mention.
QuoteOriginally posted by 30coupe:
QuoteOriginally posted by olddogrib:
Okay, somebody straighten me out here.
What constitutes reflex/deflex in limbs? I've always thought of those terms as they relate to riser design, with a reflexed riser having the limbs butts more forward-mounted, over or even in front of the bow hand and a deflexed riser having the limbs attaching more rearward, behind the bow hand. If this analogy is "all wet", just tell me, my wife does it all the time, lol. But with that analogy the reflexed riser limbs would have a power stroke that would be(for lack of a better term)more linearly forward compared to a deflexed that would be comparatively more up and down. I'm thinking of similarity to the recent "horizontal limb" technology of wheelie bows where the limb movement is now almost entirely up and down, but on a much, much smaller scale. And I know this is a gross oversimplification, but it seems like it would be further corroborated by the limb preload at brace, which I would think would be greater with the reflexed riser design. Thanks Kirk and Sixby, that's why you guys that build 'em need to enlighten us dummies that shoot 'em!
Here is a r/d longbow...my Kanati.
Unstrung:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/30coupe/Kanati%20Longbow/MyKanati-5.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/30coupe/media/Kanati%20Longbow/MyKanati-5.jpg.html)
...and strung:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/30coupe/Kanati%20Longbow/MyKanati-6.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/30coupe/media/Kanati%20Longbow/MyKanati-6.jpg.html)
By the way, it is VERY forgiving! And as Kirk said, that is a FACT! [/b]
Cyred4d,
Thanks for that link. Even as a "bow dummy" I could grasp most of that. I wasn't as far "off in the bushes" as I thought, mainly just having trouble expressing my thoughts in "non-techno-weenie" terms, but even a "blind hog can pick up an acorn now and then"!
Hummm ... Not a 'D' bow in sight.
(http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n217/dave27615/AFP_Getty-149334423.jpg)
Magoo,
You can't compare those rigs to even barebow ILF rigs.
Two complelty different animals.
Not can you compare hunting compounds with target compounds, or bench rest rifles to my predator guns.
Doesn't make a point at all
Hummm ... Not a 'D' bow in sight.
Not a bowhunter in sight either. While I do not deny the ability of a target recurves ability to put out a fast arrow. A hunter that is in persuit of a rascally wabbit, a furious pheasant, or a nervous whitetail, has to take a much tougher shot than a target shooter shooting at a dead target. Nor do I deny that there are lots of great hunting recurves and hybrids to pick from, but after reading this thread and the article, I knew that the best bow for what I do is the JD Berry Mornigstar that I have on order. I wonder if James has the torque control stabilizer option for that Morningstar.
QuoteOriginally posted by pavan:
Hummm ... Not a 'D' bow in sight.
I'm thinking those things would be a pain to use in a ground blind. :laughing:
Well ... the original question was about reflex and forgiveness in limb design. What's in the pic .... reflex. So I think it makes a pretty simple point.
Dave THAT WAS FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To the original question - reflex deflex are NOT less forgiving - as some have said. I shoot all types of longbows all the time and the notion that a straight limb or whatever is more forgiving is complete nonsense.
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I have no dog in this fight, merely trying to comprehend. The following statements are copied verbatim from the link:
Improving Stability
"Caution must be exercised when designing a bow with recurve, because bows with greater recurve can also be less stable unless the proper provisions are made to improve the stability. The stability of a bow is its ability to minimize errors induced by the archer upon release of the string, and still have the arrow assume its desired trajectory. This quality is known in the target archery community as "forgiveness". Since the string must move around the fingers upon
release, the predominant error is inconsistent side-to-side movement of the string while the arrow is still attached to the string.
The ability to resist the side-to-side motion of the string (and thus the perturbations caused by release errors) is often associated with the torsional stiffness of the bow; however this resistance is also strongly associated with the shape of the bow. In a bow with no recurve, such as a long bow, all parts of the bow are oriented toward the archer when moving along the limbs from the center of the bow to the tip. As the bow is drawn, a top view of a long bow in Figure 12 shows that the draw force tends to return the bow to its original in-line orientation when that orientation is perturbed slightly to one side. Upon release, the bow limbs drag the mass of the arrow (through the string) such that the return force tends to rotate the bow to its in-line orientation when that orientation is deformed slightly to one side, as would be induced by a release error. This behavior makes the long bow inherently stable at all draw length."
If the author's view is correct and I haven't seen anyone dispute it, then it's not inconceivable to me that reflex in a long bow limb would function similarly to the tip radius of a recurve limb, albeit on a much smaller and less exaggerated scale . I didn't take it that the author was implying these features to be unequivocally unstable, merely that the tendency existed if the bowyer didn't account for increased torsional stability if his design. I merely point this out as it may answer the OP's original question...where did the reputation come from?