I found this to be my best shooting bow yet, i feel i can hit anything with it at 20 yards with a 560 carbon or wood arrow, my question is how far can i push this bows capability on larger game, besides deer, would it be wise to shoot this set up at larger/tougher game, like cow elk, wild boar, one day black bear? what do you guys think?
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=127527
Heres a good thread on the topic from people that have actually killed elk. Ive never killed an elk so I dont know squat.
I think Mr Treadway killed a bull elk with one of his bows that was 41#s
I think the odds of making a clean kill on elk, hogs, and bear would diminish considerably using a 42# bow. Hell you can throw a rock and kill one if you hit it just right....
But i wouldn't hunt elk with anything less than 50# and prefer 55-57# or more. If you can handle the weight and shoot accurately, you owe it to the game you hunt to shoot the heaviest weight you can.
I could go higher i havent tried the weights in between,it goes from 42straight to 50lb i would looooove to try one of.his bows at abiut 47lb
@kirkill even if I use heavy narrow arrow ? with a bow in the mid 40s?
Like i said earlier bro. You could kill an elk with a rock if you hit it just right...
A 42 pound bow can kill any animal in the northern hemisphere with a good sharp broad head, or even a stone point for that matter. But your odds of getting a clean kill go WAY down. Those are damn tough animals with very thick ribs. In Oregon it's a 50# minimum requirement for elk.
hunting for elk with a 42 pound bow would be like hunting a deer wearing a bullet proof vest. it could be done.... but....are you feeling lucky?
If you can't handle a heavier weight bow, there's no shame in that at all. just use a different weapon that will do the job when you do hunt elk.
If the bow is 42@28 are you actually drawing 28? If not drawing to the length/poundage it's rated, you're gambling. And have you actually put a scale on the bow?
Make sure before you commit.
I personally would not use 42# for elk out of respect for the animal AND my accuracy limits. I should also note I have not hunted elk. Deer and hogs are my fodder 'round here.
I think you would be fine for black bear at reasonable ranges. They seem to go down fairly quick with well placed arrows.
Christian,
One of my all time favorite post was said something like this..."My ole buddy don't have the WWW, so he just don't know that 40# bows will not kill anything".
Even with that being said, I would not shoot an Elk or a hog bigger than a choate with a 40# bow. A good friend has killed bear with mid 40's on a regular basis.
Sharp broadheads and great accuracy have there place, but sometimes physics comes into play. Shooting a big boar hog with a 60# well tuned bow broadside does not always work. Choose your targets well, and if a bad gut feeling comes along always wait for the next chance.
Sorry guys i forgot to mention i draw a solid 28" , I do tend to over draw on quick shots but 28" is the number, and i just wanted to know in advance what the odds were if i was able to get away with such a light weight.
Its ALL relative to how well your bow AND arrow is tuned! I'd much rather hunt a elk with the bow and arrow as you stated proberly tuned as comared to a bow 10lbs heavier with that's poorly tuned. I have friends who shoot the same who have taken game all over the US and Africa. With that said I'd limit my shots just like I would if I shot a heavier set up!
no problem on blackies if you miss large bones a 300lb bear is, imo, easy to pop compared to a hog assuming hits are in the rib cage,
do you know how fast your arrow is going as that is plenty of weight in the arrow to kill elk as long as it is reasonably moving. for me I wouldn't consider elk, but I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a big blackie
Ill chroni it this week, but it matches this old hickory longbow i used to have at 55lb 160-165fps
We talk about the animals that are killed by lower poundage and we don't talk about the ones that are lost. If everything works perfectly you can kill and Elk or decent Hog.
How badly would you feel if you hit an animal but failed to get the second lung and did not make a successful recovery. A Hog or an Elk can go seemingly forever on one lung-could survive for up to a month.
It can be done and an Elk can be killed with a 22. If all you can pull is 42# then that's what it is.
its not all i can pull but i do get your point, im curremtly on the hunt for the same bow 46 or 47lb at my draw
gosh to be honest if your going for elk I would shoot for low 50s min
I'm definitely not trying to stir up anything or question any ones experience with this and I've never shot an elk so I wouldn't know how much poundage is enough.
I do remember when I started hunting with a bow,69 or 70, just about everybody shot 45 lbs. It was about all you could get. If you had a 50 lb. bow it was odd. There were still lots of animals killed then. What's the difference between then and now?
Like I said, not trying to ruffle feathers.
I recall a conversation with Dan Toelke where told me that he made what I recall was a 37lb elk hunting bow for himself when he had some shoulder issue's and one of his good customers in Alaska buys 40lb Whips for huge Alaskan bull moose. Seeing that Dan Toelke has probably forgotten more about bows and bow performance than many of us know, I'll take his word for it.
Keep ranges short and use a silly sharp 2 blade with a good heavy arrow.
Deadpool, few things to consider....your a young fella. looking at your profile i see you were born in '92...the yr i graduated, ouch!! looks like you are into mma. your in your early 20's, your going to "fill in", get stronger and its going to happen soon. i remember as a jack a$$ 18 y/o thinking i could take on anyone...well, the 30 y/o version wouldve beat the 18 y/o hands down. if your not going to hunt elk in the next few yrs id just relax, have fun with your current bow and rest assured that in a few yrs you will be shooting a heavier bow with ease. Like Kirk said, its not a matter of if you can, more so a matter of if you should. keep at it and have fun!
Hey pete i appreciate it!i actually started.shooting 55-60lb bows.then gradually worked my way down not because i can't pull it but because i shoot whatever im most consistant with now, im a pro fighter now and yea i have.some strenth but ill choose accuracy 9/10, sadly i cant go on an elk hunt anytime soon,i was just poking around to see what my equipment was capable of. =)
Fred eichler recently wrote he would hunt elk with a 40lb bow with arrows matched in the 9 grain per pound if that the bow he could handle and shot the best.
Lot's of folks have given you some food for thought. Your original question asks what the limits of your setup are. Whitetail deer, no problem. Small to medium sized hogs, no problem. Probably not enough to reliably get through the shield on a very large hog. As far as bear go, I haven't shot one, so it is only what I have heard from others, that with a well placed arrow they aren't much more difficult to kill than a deer. As others have said, elk are pretty much tougher than deer, but with a qood shot if everything goes well it will get the job done. Just very little margin for error. This doesn't pertain to you original question, but you have a long time before next elk season, and a young healthy guy should have no trouble getting a little more power behind their setup if they want to. For some perspective, I hurt my shoulder early in the summer yanking a saddle off of a bucking horse. Ended up messing up my AC joint and had a couple minor rotator cuff tears. Had surgery around 2 weeks ago to have the rotator cuffs touched up and the end of the clavicle of my string side resected. I shot around 100 arrows with my 50# thunderchild today. I see that you have shot heavier bows in the past but feel more accurate with the lighter setup. Definitely gotta shoot what you feel confident, but with more time with a little more poundage, I would be surprised if you wouldn't get comfortable with a heavier poundage if you have your heart set on hunting elk. No matter what you decide, I wish you luck and hope that you enjoy your bow. He makes great bows.
A 21 year old should be able to shoot a 55lbs bow with ease, unless there are some serious health issues. Your bow is a deer bow and small game bow and that's about it. Anything like elk, hogs, bear etc. is gambling. Were there animals killed with light bows. Yes. But no one tells about the animals which did not get killed with light equipment because of inadequate penetration when the arrow did not hit perfectly.
How many elk you harvested?
I think that I have read Fred Eichler's draw length to be either 30" or 31" Him shooting a 40# bow would put him around 46# @ 31", which is probably quite a bit more energy than that generated in a bow of similar design that is 50# @ 28", but I don't want to put words into his mouth. I am not sure who our question is directed to, Adam?
Just curious how many elk you have taken? I have not taken any but shot a bow in the same poundage as the original poster.
I once asked the same question and was told to stay home and hunt small game,ect.
I then did some talking with folks who have killed a bunch of elk and they saw noting wrong with a tuned 40lb recurve.
Fred in his article was implying if he could only shot 40lbs.
What excersises do you guys recommend to have my form with a 50+lber as solid as it is with my 42lber?
I don't think anything fancy is needed in going up in weight. For starters, I would leave the lighter bow alone for awhile and shoot only your 50# bow. Work on good form, holding progressively longer at fulldraw, and fully controlling the release. When you can fully control that bow and shoot it well under hunting condidions, go up 5-10# in draw weight and do the same. Always maintain consistant and proper form and you will se surprised how fast you can increase, and how much control you gain over your lighter bow.
In answer to your question, Adam. I have yet to kill an elk with a trad bow, and base most of what I know from the success and failure of others, and I know direct results of both of those. I don't opt for the minimum on virtually anyting that I shoot. Not much room for error. I have seen what a scary sharp 2 blaed broadhead does on a shield from a nice hog from a bow 53# @ 29" compared to that of and 82# bow with a huge 3 blade head. I felt lucky to recover the boar with the lighter setup, whereas the 3 blade blew straight through the hogs out of the heavy setup. This story has been repeated several times. I shot a buff on the shoulder with the same heavy setup, and came to another conclusion entirely. If you are hunting buff, make your setup strong enough to bust a rib and get to the off side rib/take out the offside lung consistently. I don't think it matters how powerful a set up you have, I don't see it busting through the spine of the scapula or the humeral head. A less powerful setup than mine should be able to get the job done.
if you want to shoot more weight get more weight, just be smart when you practice don't shoot 100 arrows a day, take a shot pull your arrow go think of another shot MAKE that shot, repeat until you feel it hard to pull, rest and repeat, then most importantly repeat.
I know for a fact you can shoot a 60 lb bow with accuracy, not that you need it, but cmon eickler may have said that but you know that he can shoot 55 as well as 40 after enough work. so that's what he probably does
there is a saying here in ak ive been told alot, never carry just enough gun
I switched to LH as a result of a nagging decades old shoulder injury from lifting weights without a spotter when I was about your age. I tore my shoulder up dumping weights and the doc said I'd have arthritis in it pretty bad by time I was 40. Well, it set in, but I keep fighting. I went through a period where I dropped weight down to 40RH.
Well, just yesterday I was out shooting a 61# bow LH in the cold that I would feel very comfortable at 20 yards hunting. It took over a year of training and progressively pulling more and more bow and focusing on form.
LH was ALL new and I had to train myself how to draw. Well, I finally learned how to properly use back muscles.
Do some research on Pow Wow and the Shooters forum here on TG and you can learn a ton about how to build up in bow weight.
Yep, you bet I still enjoy shooting my light weight bows. They are fun, and I have no issues hunting them. I think they are awesome. I actually kind of wish I was hunting a 40# bow yesterday because I could've drawn more slowly and may have had a shot on a deer (a deer saw me drawing my heavy bow and busted).
Good luck. You'll find more opinions on here than there are posts.
I will recommend whether it be bows or training...do what you know is right and don't over do it. As an example, I don't take my heavy bow out and shoot dozens of shots every day. I spare my body that. Some guys can do it though. We are all built differently. I knew better than to lift without a spotter, but I was young and bold. I paid a lifelong price. No surgery can heal the damage and the shoulder has pain off and on all the time - daily.
Bowfit exercises work. Rows help. What I call "reverse flys" (don't know the real term) where you work your upper back help. Some kettleball work. All this helps but the REAL key is practicing with the bow.
Good luck!
To me the key is to be confident with you gear. You can't have any twinge hit your head when you are hunting that you can't do it, or your gear can't do it. For some that means more bow, for others it means a little less. No one can guide you on that path as it's yours (within legal limits).
Woodmanship and being able to seal the deal at crunch time (ACCURATE SHOOTING) is what is going to kill you elk or whaterver you hunt.
That will always be the case, and yet nobody advocates using a .223 for elk hunting
A 42lb bow is more like a .243, .257 Roberts or .260 Rem, all of which can take elk in the right hands with the right bullet and range.
Yes, but the mere fact that you are mentioning caveats suggests that it might not be the best choice for the job. I have no skin in the game, and don't really care what he chooses to hunt with his bow. There is really just no reason that he can't be just as accurate with a more powerful setup to improve his odds a little.
55+ IMO...
I hunted for several years with bows in the mid 40's.
Even for deer I much prefer mid 50's and up..
So let me ask you this, a well made and tuned 42lb bow from todays materials and bowyers, shootig a slim carbon arrow, sharp 2 blade head stack up against a 50lb bow from 20 years ago shooting a 11/32 cedars??
I have never shot a bow from 20 years ago or was hunting with a recurve 20 years ago.
Just looking for comparisons??
bows 20 years ago are not as far behind as I would have thought. they still really wing em
I will always favor accuracy and straight flying, scary sharp broadhead tipped arrows over more bow weight anyday, everyday!
Everyone should strive towards this goal in whatever way THEY see fit.
Well, you have a lot of info. Hopefully more people with actual experience killing elk or other critters with trad equipment will chime in.
Dang. Double post.
QuoteOriginally posted by tecum-tha:
A 21 year old should be able to shoot a 55lbs bow with ease, unless there are some serious health issues. Your bow is a deer bow and small game bow and that's about it. Anything like elk, hogs, bear etc. is gambling. Were there animals killed with light bows. Yes. But no one tells about the animals which did not get killed with light equipment because of inadequate penetration when the arrow did not hit perfectly.
Nor do we hear of the animals that were wounded and got away because the person shooting had bought into the "heavy is better" thinking and shot an elk or other game with a bow he could not handle when perhaps with lighter gear the proper shot placement would have occurred. It works both ways.
There is no doubt truth to that, David. The rule of thumb to shoot the heaviest bow that you can shoot accurately applies. Just no reason that a young, healthy, professional fighter cannot build up to shooting a bow higher than 42# accurately if they want to hunt elk.
QuoteOriginally posted by Pat B.:
55+ IMO...
I hunted for several years with bows in the mid 40's.
Even for deer I much prefer mid 50's and up..
X2, I have had same experience.
Prob the coolest thing is we can have a debate an express are points with out offending each other and it becoming a pissing match.
I respect the heck out of the members here.
Sorry to bring back an old post but I just came back with some chrono numbers.the treadway shoots my 550g douglas fir arrow at 174fps, 3fps faster than my 50lb dryad longbow,talk about impressive speeds!
Those would be very impressive, actually. Are you sure that you are not overdrawing a tad? For my little in the head math, that is a little over 13 gpi, so that would have you shooting over 225fps at 10 gpp. Somebody else might have more exact figures, but I think you results might be a tad off. One way or another, I a glad you are happy with the performance of your bow. Go kill something with it. It will look good in a trophy pic.
Shoot what ever you can handle accurately. If you can move up in weight do so...but a lot of times I see guys say they are shooting such & such weight without coming to full draw cause it's too heavy for them. I'm about to turn 68 in January, I'm moving down in weight. Some of my favorite bows are also moving down on my knife grinder...tippit
42#@28 Carbon Griffin...
(http://images3a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp733%3C9%3Enu%3D32%3A4%3E%3B87%3E672%3EWSNRCG%3D3783%3B8976%3B32%3Cnu0mrj)
Awesome picture tippit!
And pdk25 the numbers were accurate, shooting the same weight arrows atleast 30x, the speed ranged from 171-174, and at 10gpp, the arrows were a consistant 192fps, at 470g thr.arrows were averaging 185fps
This thread illustrates what Dan Toelke told me about how most guys benefit from going lower in weight because the working part of the limb on the lower weight bows usually gets achieved and it doesn't as much when guys try to shoot heavy weights.
Dan said he gets customers all the time who shoot a 55lb bow and then marvel when they shoot a 47lb bow and the 47lb bow shows more speed thru the chrono.
From my many years in the sporting goods business and especially my time at in Cabela's archery dept, it just goes back to my firm opinion that most bow hunters, trad and compound alike, are about 8-10lbs overbowed.
everyone likes to get a pas through for bloodtrailing purposes, but you dont have to completley pass through the ribcage, and 40# is more than enough to bust through one rib, cross both lungs and the job is done. Yes, its enough. Better off to shoot 42# accurately, than 50# inaccurately.
I know a few guys who shoot low poundage longbows/recurves and they get shots on elk, but the results are not overall favorable so far in my opinion. They do fine on deer though. On hogs I would check the forums here and use the knowledge gathered there.
Aside from that, everyone can shoot what he wants as long as it is legal to do so. If it is ethical everyone must know for himself.
Especially with the lighter bow outshoots the much higher one! Lol
Those are impressive performance figures. How about some pictures so we can see the design of this wonderful bow?
I have been giving this some curious thought. We should maybe trade bows as I have a faster than average Hill style yew lam bow that is in the mid fifties that shoots into 170s with that arrow weight and at your draw length, at least on the chrono we used that was suppose to have been tested to be accurate. No one would question shooting a cow elk with my yew longbow, it does not have any numbers written on it. But then you said that you were shooting your best with the Treadway, so forget the trade thing. Numbers are funny abstract things, especially the ones that are written on the sides of bows.
Yes regardless of draw weight written on the bow, it's the final speed and weight of arrow that matters. No one would question a 60# hill longbow for elk. But that probably shot the same 550g arrow at the same speed of 174fps.
nativestranger, here are a few pics of my Treadway Black Swamp--not sure if that is the same model deadpool is using, but they are impressive bows. Some of the best performers I have owned in my 40-some years of archery.
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy241/davidmitchell_6466/Treadway%20Black%20Swamp/TreadwayBlackSwamp004.jpg) (http://s796.photobucket.com/user/davidmitchell_6466/media/Treadway%20Black%20Swamp/TreadwayBlackSwamp004.jpg.html)
(http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/yy241/davidmitchell_6466/Treadway%20Black%20Swamp/TreadwayBlackSwamp008.jpg) (http://s796.photobucket.com/user/davidmitchell_6466/media/Treadway%20Black%20Swamp/TreadwayBlackSwamp008.jpg.html)
Thanks David. It looks beautiful.
I'm a relative new-comer to bow hunting. I started shooting a recurve around 1956 or so and then quit shooting bows entirely when I graduated high school until a few years ago.
I have been shooting a rifle quite a bit over my 73 years, though, and some of the same arguments apply. I've had friends who hunted elk every year with a .270 and nearly always scored . They killed elk very dead at 200 yards with that little pea sized bullet. I've also read lots of articles written by guys who have made a lifetime of hunting/guiding elk and most of them say the same thing - they like a .338 over the smaller calibers for elk because:
a. Elk are very tough animals.
b. Most importantly, many hunters who have perhaps a once in a lifetime opportunity at an elk will want to take any reasonable shot. If they passed on every shot except a close-up, broadside shot and could place the bullet right where they wanted it, most anything .25 caliber or up with the proper bullet would do fine. It's the quartering shot that would be a piece of cake with a larger caliber that could result in a wounded, non-recovered elk with the pea-shooter.
I'm hearing the same arguments in this thread and I think they are valid. Those who say a 40# bow will kill an elk just fine will attach a few extra caveats beyond the usual "well tuned bow/arrow combo", "sharp BH" and "accurate shooting".
If you live where elk hunting is a routine activity, you might pass on a shot that others would find very difficult to turn down. I think if I was planning an elk hunt, even at my age I would work out to where I felt comfortable with something with a bit more steam behind it. For the time being, I'm sufficiently challenged trying to get an arrow into one of our mostly nocturnal whitetails this year.
If your chronograph is correct, that is pretty special performance for sure. Here are some numbers that I got using bows setup with string silencers drawn to a measured 29.5" draw length on each shot.
Bow #1
Black Widow MAIII recurve 64" 65# @ 28"
8 strand 450+ string
710 grain arrow
draw length 29.5" expected draw weight 69.5#
GPP 10.2
FPS 181
Bow #2
Black widow MAIII recurve 60" 67# @ 27"
Black Widow string (D97 I think)
670 grain arrow
draw length 29.5" expected draw weight 74.5#
GPP 9.0
FPS 197
Bow #3
Leon Stewart Slammer r/d longbow 66" 71# @ 28"
8 strand 450+ string
715 grain arrow
draw length 29.5" expected draw weight 75.5#
GPP 9.5
FPS 187
Bow #4
RER vortex r/d longbow 62" 56# @ 28"
8 strand 450+ string
571 grain arrow
draw length 29.5" expected draw weight 60.5#
GPP 9.4
FPS 184
Bow #5
Red Wing Slim Line Pro Recurve 58" 45# @ 28"
6 strand 450+ string
530 grain arrow
draw length 29.5" expected draw weight 49.5#
GPP 10.7
FPS 172
Normalized to 9gpp assuming linear curve, which would not be exact:
Bow #1
Black Widow MAIII recurve 64" 65# @ 28"
Adjusted to 9 gpp 192.8
Bow #2
Black widow MAIII recurve 60" 67# @ 27"
Adjusted to 9 gpp 196.9
Bow #3
Leon Stewart Slammer r/d longbow 66" 71# @ 28"
Adjusted to 9 gpp 190.6
Bow #4
RER vortex r/d longbow 62" 56# @ 28"
Adjusted to 9 gpp 188.4
Bow #5
Red Wing Slim Line Pro Recurve 58" 45# @ 28"
Adjusted to 9 gpp 187.6
As you can see, less than 10 fps between these bows which may be largely in part due to differences in strings, silencing material. The reason that I am a little surprised by your numbers is that you report a 28" inch draw length and are by far outperforming all of my bows using a 28" draw. Quite a bow, for sure.
Guys ill get a chrono test video for you very soon maybe you can spot.something i cant, nonetheless, this bow is still outperforming my 50lb dryad
Keep in mind to shoot what you feel comfortable shooting, no matter the game or weapon, other than dangerous game. I've seen literally 1000's of customers over the years that struggled with too much weight and their shooting suffered a bit because of it. Someone who can shoot 42lbs well is far better in the field than a guy shaking and short drawing with 55lbs.
On a side note from my years in retail, I also think compound shooters are obsessed with speed numbers. So, many buy "speed bows" that are harder to shoot and then they match it with ultra light arrows, when what they really need in a moderate speed bow and heavier arrows, for the real world hunting they will actually be doing. In that same line of thought, I still had the sense that the traditional customers were interested shooting the very max weight they could draw, but they were missing the fact that shooting at the store range, while standing and in a tee shirt is far different than many hunting situations. I did my best to try and talk every customer down 5 pounds, when they bought a longbow or recurve.
What many forget or are unaware of is, under real world hunting, one often has to draw and hold, or they get hung up holding at half draw for a bit, even if they are normally a snap shooter. If the animal suddenly turns or steps behind a tree, one can hold lower weight, if need be.
My dad was a rifle instructor in the USMC. He was a big, big proponent of placement over power. Even though we had .338's, .340 Weatherby's, .375 H&H and even .458's, my dad's favorite round for Grizzly was the .300 Weatherby, which he used on 4 different Grizzly's. I had the luxury of hunting with famed Grizzly guide Clayton Mack. he liked the bigger guns like .338 and up when he didn't know the hunter beforehand, but he told me that he'd allow as low as a 7mm Mag, if he knew the hunter and had the sense of him. That's true for trad bows too. There's guys that can kill about anything with low weight bows.
To me, there is a connection between too much bow and too much rifle. Here's from Chuckhawks...
"Ideal elk cartridges. These are good cartridges to consider if you are buying a rifle specifically for elk hunting and don't mind substantial recoil and muzzle blast. Their principle drawback is that most shooters do mind the recoil and muzzle blast, particularly of the magnums, and simply cannot do their best shooting with these cartridges.
Bullet placement is the most important factor in killing power. (Memorize that sentence!)"
I'm not saying go out and specifically pick a 42lb bow for elk. Not at all. But if one has shoulder issue's, for which conditioning or working out has no impact, if all he/she can shoot accurately is 42lbs, then they can do so on CXP3 class game, as long as they are far more selective than the guy shooting 60lbs. The same is true with deer, where legal. You can kill any deer with a 35lbs recurve, but the shots need to be close and it helps if the animal is completely relaxed. As with choosing the perfectly matched bullet if using a lighter rifle, one must take more care on choosing the right arrow if shooting lower weights.
Anyhow, good luck on whatever you decide.
Don't take my posts wrong. I am glad that you are very happy with your bow, and it seems to be performing very well for you. The fact that it is outperforming your heavier bow speaks volumes. Go out and kill some stuff with it, and you will have a much better idea of what it is capable of.
These questions will probably be debated forever. I've hunted elk with a 57lb recurve and a 42 lb selfbow and they performed equally (I didn't shoot an elk with either one. lol) I have however shot a bunch of other stuff with various draw weights and there has been surprisingly little difference in penetration/lethality. One of the most devastating hits that I ever saw (passed through the chest AND severed a leg bone) came from 42 lb @24inch bow. Saw pics of a bull bison with a 27 inch arrow buried to the fletch from a 47# @26 bow. Etc. Etc. Sharp broadheads, good arrow flight and decent placement are devastating.
For what it is worth, I draw 32" and pull 68lbs at that length. I also believe elk can be killed with light weight weaponry, given the right circumstances. That said, I view elk as a precious resource. They are something like good friends, of an animal nature obviously, and deserve respect. One certainly can kill an elk with a light bow, but if you intend to do so, you absolutely must have the patience to wait for a short broadside shot. I like a heavy bow because it extends my list of ethical, respectful shots.
So taking ethical shots because of draw weight is ?? Please explain shots other than broadside and quatering away, so iyou can make other shots due to draw weight?
That leaves frontal and quartering to. Both risky with any weapon.
So a guy takes a broadside shot with a 42lb bow at 18 yards. A guy shooting 65 lbs takes a slightly quartering to at 29 yards.
Which has the most margin of a wounded animal?
Leaving this one alone. It has been discussed frequently on many other threads.
QuoteOriginally posted by pdk25:
Leaving this one alone. It has been discussed frequently on many other threads.
I think pdk25 has a good point. That said, my apologies for speaking poorly Keb. I meant to imply that I can take a quartering away or broadside shot at 25-30 yards. Something I would hesitate to do with a low poundage bow on elk. They can run a long ways on one lung.
QuoteOriginally posted by David Mitchell:
QuoteOriginally posted by tecum-tha:
A 21 year old should be able to shoot a 55lbs bow with ease, unless there are some serious health issues. Your bow is a deer bow and small game bow and that's about it. Anything like elk, hogs, bear etc. is gambling. Were there animals killed with light bows. Yes. But no one tells about the animals which did not get killed with light equipment because of inadequate penetration when the arrow did not hit perfectly.
Nor do we hear of the animals that were wounded and got away because the person shooting had bought into the "heavy is better" thinking and shot an elk or other game with a bow he could not handle when perhaps with lighter gear the proper shot placement would have occurred. It works both ways. [/b]
\\
Unfortunately we have a lot of big game that are equally lost by hunters pulling to much weight and not hitting where they aim. I have gone to a bunch of Trad shoots the last two years and see guys that can't even get close to anchor trying to pull a 55# bow back. Add in cold weather, layers of clothes and excitement and it all spells disaster. A casual friend kills his elk every year with a 42# @ 27 Chastaine and a 650 grain arrow with a big 275 grain VPA 3 blade up front. He limits his range to 20yards.
QuoteOriginally posted by Mojostick:
This thread illustrates what Dan Toelke told me about how most guys benefit from going lower in weight because the working part of the limb on the lower weight bows usually gets achieved and it doesn't as much when guys try to shoot heavy weights.
Dan said he gets customers all the time who shoot a 55lb bow and then marvel when they shoot a 47lb bow and the 47lb bow shows more speed thru the chrono.
From my many years in the sporting goods business and especially my time at in Cabela's archery dept, it just goes back to my firm opinion that most bow hunters, trad and compound alike, are about 8-10lbs overbowed.
Nicely Said!
or 8-10 pounds out of shape
jrchambers posted
"or 8-10 pounds out of shape"
Nicely put! :archer2:
Or totally ignorant to shoulder issue's some have to the point of making stupid comments not worthy of Tradgang, nor seeming to understand a whole lot about what a 40lb bow can do... :(
(http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s415/pinefarm/photo-42.jpg)
:banghead: I knew better
That set-up would get enough penetration to kill MOST hogs with a very sharp two blade broadhead.imho I have no idea on Elk,though.
I can jum in and stir the pot a bit.
Those are very impressive chrono numbers with that weight arrow. Impressive enough for mem to do 2 things. First I want to question those numbers and second I need to check out Treadway bows!
A lot of people question hunting elk with that weight bow and other people question those people for questioning them.
My thoughts are that if that is all I can pull to hunt elk, I'm not going elk hunting.
If this young man has this bow with those impressive numbers, then why not ,at age 21, work up to a 50-55# bow with even more impressive numbers.
There is no reason for his accuracy to suffer if he works into a heavier bow. He has a year. And I'm sure he could shoot a 50#+ bow every bit as well, so why not do it?
I watched two guys shooting the same BW recurve through a chrono that had virtually the same draw, with the same arrows. Their speeds were 15 pfs apart on the four arrows that I watched and it looked to be the same draw lengths. They had higher numbers than those that were posted about BW speeds ealier in this thread, however, I did not know the arrow weight they were shooting. Some people get more out of bows than others, even if the numbers were a bit off, they were still enough faster than the heavier bow and if it was the same chrono that he compared them with, logic says take the faster more accurate bow.
deadpool you may have sold a couple of treadways. those are some crazy numbers but I belive them, some bows just don't fall out yet with that weight. I shoot a similar design bow 60lbs at 30.5 and I got low 170s with a 760gr arrow, but I am more consistant with a 600 gr arrow going 188 to 191.
mr. chambers this one is the first and only treadway I have ever owned lol, I have the video ready I'll post I when get wifi. as for the value of these bows they have about sky rocketed, hope he doesn't jack he prices up! lol
QuoteOriginally posted by deadpool:
Guys ill get a chrono test video for you very soon maybe you can spot.something i cant, nonetheless, this bow is still outperforming my 50lb dryad
ok... let me get this straight. the bow design you posted weighs in at 42# and it is out shooting a dryad bow at 50# using the same arrow?
Wrong.... Dryads bows are pretty high performance i pretty much guarantee your testing is skewed.
If you really want to know how fast it is send it to me and i'll test it accurately on a hooter shooter, through a chrono with a computer interface, on video if you like. We could throw in a little wager on the outcome if you like too.
I'm not surprised if the 42# treadway bow outperforms the 50# dryad. Might not happen with another 42&50 bows but every trad bow is a little different, even from the same bowyer. I've had numerous bows from the same world class bowyer and some just perform better than others, virtually identical bows.
Trad bows made by hand (even CNC) will always have slight inconsistencies and variations
I feel as if you have taken this post to offense, I am not trying to bash dryad in any way, I love that bow, yes I am shooting the exact same arrow for both bows, no I will not ship you my bows. I posted these stats just to share what I have learned,not to brag about having the baddest bow in the woods sir.
also keep in mind the treadway is is way more r/d than my dryad
have you put the bows on a scale?
Actually no I havent thought about that
the dryad might be a little under and the swamp might be a little up. also are the arrows flying as well out of the dryad as the black swamp?
Its a bit funny how this thread has rolled. It started out with an honest question about what could be done with a high performance 42 pound bow. It seems that most think the Dryad would be good enough for elk. It seems that some doubt the chrono readings. As I told a Tradgang sponcer when I was ordering a bow, and he confirmed that with one of his own observations of a Hoyt target bow. I have seen a lighter weight 42 pound Hoyt target bow shoot the same arrow faster than a 55 pound longbow at the same draw length. I would say go out on your next day off and fling a few long ones out in the open. See if they flight shoot the same difference as the chrono readings, watch the arrows fly to make sure that they are both flying equally well. Regardless of all of the possiblities like arrows not flying as well out of the slower bow, or perhaps your draw being shorter with the heavy bow, or perhaps the bows are not marked properly, you will see for yourself. The longest shot wins. Now if you had a 50 pound Dryad and a 58 pound something else that shot slower than the Dryad, which is possible if it would be a hard wood Hill style longbow, but you were twice as accurate with this fictitious heavier longbow, most would say things like 'faster only means that you miss faster go with accuracy first'. I once crossed paths with a friendly fellow that was hunting with one of those solid fiberglass Pearson kid bows, a 35 pounder, with Bodkin broadheads. I was thinking that I should say something, but I did not. when I got back to my van he was waiting for me. He shot a very large buck and didn't know what to do because it ran off with his arrow. He got both lungs and a far side rib stopped his arrow. The deer went down in about 100 yards. His broaheads were barely sharpened by most standards. I did tell him that next time that he should get his heads sharper. I did not feel getting into an arguement about his kiddy bow was going to have much traction at that time. The next year he had a 40 pound Bear Grizzly.
QuoteOriginally posted by deadpool:
also keep in mind the treadway is is way more r/d than my dryad
Which Dryad bow and which Treadway bow did you compare with?
Go with your gut and stay legal. I've never killed an elk but if those numbers are correct, that bows as good as my 55# kodiak magnum at a 27" draw. I don't think people would question that. I shoot higher poundage because I buy cheaper bows. My k mag shoots faster than my 60# samick. People wound them with 70 # compounds every year.if you doubt your setup go bigger, you already know if it's enough or not. Now if your using an outfitter they may not let you use it..just a thought.
Im just happy for deadpool that he has a bow he loves and shoots good and i really dont see how it could be anything other than that . Deadpool you take that bow hunting for anything legal to hunt and enjoy your special bow !
Im just happy for deadpool that he has a bow he loves and shoots good and i really dont see how it could be anything other than that . Deadpool you take that bow hunting for anything legal to hunt and enjoy your special bow !
All these wild claims and you haven't even weighed the bows?..... This is down right silly....
Hey i'm happy you like your bow. But if i was the bowyer, i'd be unhappy with your comparison and question the test results.....
:confused:
deadpool don't worry about it. just keep posting what you find. the rest of us should read and maybe learn something, we cant argue as we are not involved in the testing. if some one wants to prove you wrong then they should put in some effort to do so. Then post what they Know.
till then I for one am looking forward to hear what they weigh in at and see the crono vid.
QuoteOriginally posted by jrchambers:
deadpool don't worry about it. just keep posting what you find. the rest of us should read and maybe learn something, we cant argue as we are not involved in the testing. if some one wants to prove you wrong then they should put in some effort to do so. Then post what they Know.
till then I for one am looking forward to hear what they weigh in at and see the crono vid.
X2
Tread way is a well designed bow
:archer2:
I'll weigh in for what its worth... I would NOT hunt elk with a 42# bow.
I have personally been a part of nearly two dozen bulls killed with bows. Mostly trad bows.
Of those, most turned out well, but some did not. As Trumpkin said... these animals are not as numerous as deer and should be treated with the utmost respect. The feeling of losing an elk is the lowest I have ever felt... I have seen it reduce tough men to tears.... Do you want to be that guy?
Elk are thick skinned, thick ribbed, big fast moving beasts. To walk up on a dead mature bull is sight to behold. It will leave you in awe of there size. When you commit to skinning, you will marvel at the thickness of their hide and hair.
Regarding bow speeds....This has been argued ad nauseum in previous posts. Those who chose to go in light... I feel that is asking for trouble.
However, to each their own. Personnally I would not willfully choose to put myself in a position to wound such a great animal....
As has been stated 400 times before....Shoot as MUCH bow as you can shoot accurately and leave it at that. I don't believe there is such a thing as too MUCH penetration.
Many seem hung up on the 42# draw weight. That is MEANINGLESS!! If his chrono numbers are accurate, THAT'S what matters.
If the chrono number of 174 fps is correct, that's 37 ft.lbs. As much energy as a 60# hill longbow shooting a 10 gpp arrow.
Definitely no expert here, but isn't KE the most important factor? I'm sure someone here has the formula.
Nope. KE is pretty much meaningless for an arrow. The compound folks like it, and, of course, it makes sense for rifle bullets, but momentum is a much better measure of penetration than kinetic energy when applied to arrows.
Guys I am sorry but with a certified chrono, there is absolutely no way this bow, if really 42#, shoot @ 174 fps a 13,33 gpp arrow at a real 28" drawlenght and hand release. That means something in the 200+ fps at 10 gpp and 28" DL :deadhorse:
Regarding to the design, with that 560 gr arrow and 42# at 28", real speed should be more in the low 160 fps range
QuoteOriginally posted by Orion:
Nope. KE is pretty much meaningless for an arrow. The compound folks like it, and, of course, it makes sense for rifle bullets, but momentum is a much better measure of penetration than kinetic energy when applied to arrows.
The issue with using momentum as measure for penetration is if you play around with chrono testing of different bow and arrow weight combinations, you will notice there comes a point where a light bow shooting a very heavy arrow can actually produce higher momentum measurement than a heavier bow shooting a lighter arrow. But reality, the heavier bow will always penetrate better pointing to KE being the determining factor. Here's the article of test done by Jack Howard
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000114
still if the chrono is off and his shooting with both bows is consistant, you see that the lower lb bow, how much lower we don't really know but it is for sure lower, pushes the same arrow harder. and the numbers for the 50lb bow are right on target of what they should be.
Ill wait to judge until I see video and actual draw weights, oh deadpool if you havnt made the vid yet make a mark on your arrows where you draw too and try and get that on film when you shoot them, that way we can see if there is a change in dl
In my opinion this is the problem w/ the internet, and chronographs for that matter...
too much info, "experts", and opinions. I've never chrono'd a bow and probably never will. I know when a bow is fast enough and it's how they shoot overall that really makes them special.
Deadpool, just go enjoy your bow, whether it's hunting, 3D, etc.. alot of people never find that "magic" bow and are just skeptical (even jealous) of those who have
just my 2 cents....
The internet is a great place to share stories and knowledge. Granted you still need to take a lot of these posts with a grain of salt.
There is nothing wrong with using a chronograph at all. it's a tool that many bowyers use to measure their gains in performance. There are also a lot of guys out there that are very interested in the evolution of stick bows and as we get closer and closer to a 100% efficiency, the gains become smaller and smaller and the accuracy of the testing becomes critical.
There are others that don't care a bit about the advancements we've made in performance, and say "Speed don't matter." That's cool... Peace be with you.
I for one would like to see this video of your testing deadpool... after you have weighed each bow accurately as well as the arrows, i think you may find things come out a bit differently.
i'd bet the 42 pound bow is probably drawing 45-46 pounds, and the 50 # bow is probably drawing close to the same weight as the lighter bow.
Would a 50 pound Dryad, that shoots a 550 grain arrow 171 fps, be enough to hunt elk?
Pavan,
Most likely. But, If you are asking for a recommendation... Shoot a bow that shoots 600-700 grains that fast.
I shoot a toelke lynx 61 # @29 that shoots a 655 grain arrow 175 fps tipped with a two blade bh. I have passed through the last three bull elk .... But Barely! Thus my heartfelt words of caution.
Every bull I have seen shot with a trad bow has run off with the arrow still in them. I felt like I had really done something when 3 or 4 seasons ago my arrow was merely protruding mostly on the opposite side! Maybe we just suck?
Here is my concern.... These are all bulls shot with 55# plus bows. We have used everything from 2,3,4 blades, wood ,aluminum and carbon, even a grizzly stick one year. We have shot bear recurves, black widow recurves and long bows, a hill style longbow, Several rf/df custom bows.. Its been iffy enough that one of my partners gave up and went back to his compound.
The point is , we have been working hard at the penetration game. I think people see guys like Fred eichler blow through everything and forget his crazy long draw length packs an extra punch.
Ps.. My set up Zips through deer and antelope like warm butter.... But elk are just plain arrow stoppers in my experience. With all due respect, the guys arguing esoteric mathematics that have not actually killed elk are maybe leading some astray.
elk are just plain arrow stoppers in my experience. With all due respect, the guys arguing esoteric mathematics that have not actually killed elk are maybe leading some astray.
This is spot on.... In the last 20 years we've hung about 70 Roosevelt elk in our camp with various archery gear. 12 of these i took myself. I won't even talk about the number that were not recovered, but there were quite a few lost with text book shots right behind the shoulder with bows over 55#.
You owe it to the animals you hunt to use the most powerful bow you can shoot accurately. If you can't handle the right equipment, go elk hunting with your camera.
I know a fellow that shot two or three with a 51@26 Schulz longbow, using Schulz broadheads. He told me that if he could pull what I was pulling at the time, he would be using a heavier bow for elk. I am getting older and more vulnerable to injury, and I am not going to grow longer arms. If I go elk hunting next year, my 60@26 Robertson with Grizzly tipped Alaskan graphites are going to have to be it. I am certain the numbers will fall short, but that is the best penetrating package I have right now.
Ive seen a couple treadways in action, and they looked pretty fast to the eye. They looked faster than the other bows being shot that day. You may have a bow that is as fast as you say, but I learned a while back to be wary of large speed numbers posted on the internet.
Your original post suggests you are concerned that you dont have enough bow for the job. If thats the case, dont use it. 42# is awful light for a young guy....
I'm not saying speed doesn't matter because it does....to a certain extent. I don't need a chronograph though to tell me when a bows performance is acceptable. I can tell that just by shooting it. From a scientific/experimental point of view for a bowyer chronographs can be useful and interesting I suppose but for practical purposes it's splitting hairs. A bow that shoots 180fps is no less effective than one that shoots 190fps, and I'll bet most people couldn't tell the difference without a chronograph anyway. Most, if not all, of the top bows today shoot close to one another at hunting ranges.
To the ORIGINAL question, I personally wouldn't hunt elk w/ a 42# bow, not even a 42# compound. I'd feel more comfortable at 55# +
The man who introduced me to bow hunting killed over a dozen elk with the same set up. He never lost one! He did only use two blade heads and took only high percentage shots. He also only drew about 26" and shot wood arrows. He said he only had one fail to pass through.
He also took two buffalo with the same set up! Both were pass throughs and hit ribs.
That being said, I would not do it as I can shoot heavier weights well and prefer to have that extra confidence.
If you are asking for a recommendation... Shoot a bow that shoots 600-700 grains that fast.
i just tested a bow on a shooting machine yesterday that shoots a 743 grain arrow at 10.10 gpp 191 FPS... You think this would get er done bro?
The same bow shoots a 817 grain arrow 11.11 gpp at 184 fps.
29" draw length 73.52#'s@29" This thing is a tank killer. :biglaugh:
QuoteOriginally posted by Michael Arnette:
The man who introduced me to bow hunting killed over a dozen elk with the same set up. He never lost one! He did only use two blade heads and took only high percentage shots. He also only drew about 26" and shot wood arrows. He said he only had one fail to pass through.
He also took two buffalo with the same set up! Both were pass throughs and hit ribs.
That being said, I would not do it as I can shoot heavier weights well and prefer to have that extra confidence.
So what poundage did he shoot?
I think he is referring to the Treadway. I know the Schulz boys did pretty well with bows in the 50s range with less than 28" draws. One thing Deadpool did say was that his treadway looked as fast or faster than the other bow. Regardless of the numbers, it may have been quicker. I have had a number of people not believe the penetration that my wife gets with her under 40 pound bows at her draw. I can say this, it is all in the arrow. A 430 grain arrow with a Hunter Head, Grizzly, or shaving sharp Zwickey that is flying dead straight when it hits, trumps everything when it comes to deer. I have seen guys with bigger draws and more weight, that don't have the same arrow flight when they shoot at game as when they shoot at targets, something changes in how they shoot. The result is that they do not get as much penetration. One fellow said that he had never gotten a pass through and had never seen anybody with a trad bow who did. When I saw the arrow flight him and his buddies were getting and their sloppy short of anchor releases, I understood his results. A strong shot, with a properly fitted arrow from a lighter bow, will always out perform a sloppy, struggled shot from a heavy bow.
David Petersen in his book 'A Man Made of Elk' says a 650 gn arrow traveling at 155 fps if a good minimum.