my tall tines is a little loud...maybe not really loud, but it has that thummmmmm, noise. I checked my BH and my tiller. my tiller is off by about 1/4 of an inch.... the top is 7 5/8 and the bottom is 7 3/8...how do I adjust this in a recurve bow? can you add or subtract twists in the top or bottom...or will this even change anything other than BH? thanks. I know after shooting compound, that they sound different...but shouldn't this bow be quite a bit quieter than my compound...because I don't think it is that much, if any quieter...?
Rick, I suspect that's just what your bowyer intended. It's normal to have a little positive tiller to compensate for a slightly shorter lower limb, if I understand it correctly. I'm no bowyer.
And yes, it should be considerably quieter than your compound.
Yes tiller always matters
Tiller is not adjustable without removing part of the bow.
Probable not your noise problem.
Recurves are a little more difficult to silence than longbows.
Your best choice would be to contact Tall Tines and see what they use.
Do you have a quiver on the bow? Bow quivers can be the source of noise or help deaden noise.
Do you shoot split fingers or 3 under? 3 under makes it more difficult to make it quiet.
It's a popular bow so there should be a solution.
I'm still trying to work out how you would add twists to just the upper or lower portion of the bowstring?!? :archer:
Depending on what is causing your noise you can raise brace height, add puffs to the string, use heavier arrows or employ other sound dampening tricks and techniques. Recurves should just make a soft "thub" when released.
We had a recurve that was about 3/8 inch positive. I put an arrow rest on the bow 3/8 inch up from the shelf and raised the nocking point on the string to match. This fixed its noise and vibration problems, plus the bow shot a much cleaner flying arrow.
Tiller is not nearly as important in a laminated bow as some would have you think. 1/8" as you described is right in the wheel house.
The only time you would notice any ill effects from tiller is if it were WAY out of wack such as at least 3/8" or more.
bigjim
I should have pointed out that the 3/8" bow was a Darton from the 70s. My wife is still mad at me for giving it to a kid, that has yet go hunting with it. She used it for years and never missed a deer with it.
Charlie, someone told me that twisting the top loop would affect it differently than twisting the bottom...I didn't believe it or understand how...but he said that it would change the tiller. the only thing I think would that it would change by either twisting the top vs the bottom would be the nock point. that was my cousing and he has been shooting a long time...? dave told me tiller did not matter near as much as nock position, and that I believe...
dave also gave me some brand new otter skin silencers and I put felt between the string and limbs...I have my BH at 7 5/8, I guess I will just play with it. and if I don't figure it out...I can always shoot my other bows.
thanks for all of your help.
Are you shooting at least 9 gr per pound of arrow weight, have you moved your string silencers up and down to the string to find the best placement in terms of noise, are your nocks too tight, arrow quiver as mentioned above can sometimes be part of the problem or can also make it shoot quieter.
no quiver. moved the string silencers up and down. got the arrows from dave, he said they are plenty heavy enough...but either of us know the grain weight. moved the BH around. nocks are actually a little looser than I like, but they work....who knows. I will figure it out, or I will hang it on the wall and it will be an $1180 wall decoration.
You might try a flemish twist b50 string. Some of my bows just are not as quiet with the newer low stretch string materials.
I'll chime in on the string twist. On a flemish twist string it is possible for the serving to keep the top half of the string from twisting at the same rate as the bottom making the bottom half a mush tighter twist. Even though the string is the same length it will pull the top limb further back and put the tiller out of whack. This happened to me with my ACS and gave me a fit trying to resolve it.
The difference in which loop one twists would only show up if the serving area was prevented from being twisted somehow and one end of the string kept on the bow. If the string is twisted from the bottom loop without any pinching off at the serving, the entire string twists. I tried this by holding the serving in my hand against the bow, it does show a a difference when the bow is braced. I dont know if it will stay that way after shooting some arrows.
I have helped with a loud Howatt, a B50 flemish string did the trick. I made a string and left the strand ends dangle a bit. The bow only needed wool yarn puffs with the new string.
That is correct pavan. I mentioned it because of the earlier posts and it would baffle someone who did not know to look for it.
I could see how that would be a temptation to use, if one wanted to alter the knocking point and increase the brace at the same time. I am not so sure that things would stay in place. I have gone as far as removing the serving, getting the twists into the string to get the brace I wanted and then put on new serving. With tight serving, there is resistance to twist changes under the serving. While it may make no difference over all, I have noticed that a string can be a little quieter after making sure that the twisting is the same all the way through the serving.
I don't know about this uneven twisting thing. Beyond me.
Now I'd think a string that has excessive twists would be louder.
Your tiller is fine. If you think it is too noisey, try adjusting the string within the manufacturer's recommended hight. Twist or untwist the string from either end will accomplish the same thing. Approx., 5 twist = 1/4". Use a heavier string; add a small silencer to the string, top and bottom the same distance from the nock, use heavier arrows. :thumbsup:
I have a bow that at a brace height of anything less than 7 1/2 makes a plain obnoxious twang! I avoided shooting it for ages because of the noise. Twist it up around 8 and it not only is a lot quieter but more forgiving too!
I don't buy the differential twist rate between what's above the serving and what's below, in my opinion it will even out under tension.
Rick - what have you done so far for to minimize the noise of your bow? You should be able to get it pretty quiet with a combination of brace height, arrow weight, tuning, and of course a smooth release from your fingers (often the most difficult to achieve).
I usually set my brace height at the top of the recommended range (bowyer recommendation) and experiment by adding or subtracting a few twists at a time. You should be able to hear a difference and there will be a spot where it is quietest. Sometimes at the top is not the quietest place but in my experience it usually is so I start there. I often end up a little bit over the recommended, my Blacktails are noticeably quieter about 1/4 over what Norm recommends.
Relatively heavy arrows help a lot, I like mine in the middle range, 9-11 grains per pound of draw weight.
Tuning makes a big difference too. This is a good link on a process that works well ( www.acsbows.com/bareshaftplaning (http://www.acsbows.com/bareshaftplaning.html) ).
I'm assuming you have string silencers on, some yarn on the ends of the string where it contacts the limb is important too. Mole skin works for sting/limb contact too but I think something like Bow Hush looks nicer.
QuoteOriginally posted by bigbadjon:
I'll chime in on the string twist. On a flemish twist string it is possible for the serving to keep the top half of the string from twisting at the same rate as the bottom making the bottom half a mush tighter twist. Even though the string is the same length it will pull the top limb further back and put the tiller out of whack. This happened to me with my ACS and gave me a fit trying to resolve it.
I have found this to be true also. I've mostly had trouble putting wool type silencers in,but once I figured out what was going on I just made sure to give the top a little more twist. It does make a difference on flemish twist strings. Also some of the recurves I have show to have a higher brace height around eight or even a little more. You could try playing with it a little and see if it helps.
I'm no expert on this, but I wonder if it's not the serving that is keeping the twists from being equalized, but the individual bundles. When you make the top string loop, it's easy to get the twists out of the bundles before you begin to make the bottom loop. If you just make the bottom loop without doing anything else, there will be a lot of twists in each bundle near the bottom string loop, and this will create a situation where that section of the bowstring will resist the twists you put in the bowstring as a whole, so there will be more twists on the other end of the bowstring. The way to avoid this is to either work the twists in the bundles down so they are uniform through the bundle, or better, to put put counter twists in each bundle before you start to make the second loop, so that after you make the second loop there aren't many twists in each bundle.
So if what your describing were true, cutting off and inch of the top string, and tying a new loop on the end would just put more bend in the top limb! Am I the only one who realizes how totally ridiculous that sounds. It's physically impossible.
im already getting to the point where I am about to just hang this thing up and keep shooting my Hoyts. I came to traditional to try something new and to try 'simple' out, but it is proving anything but simple. oh well, I have fun with my compounds and I know I will hit what I shoot at.
You really need to get with someone who's good at tuning stickbows - it's really not all that complicated. And I'm calling BS on this differential twist thing ????
Of course differential twisting is BS, but it was fun BS. It will stay that way until you string your bow. Rick needs to get in touch with someone that can help him out. If that bow is banging really loud, someone with experience could spot the problem very easily during the shooting process. If no one is available a video with sound might help.
tiller is a direct result of string length at brace
string length is adjusted by twisting or untwisting the string
you can NOT adjust tiller or pull one limb or the other more by twisting the string on different ends-period
Maybe I'm missing something but it appears you have a bow built with positive tiller for a split finger release, don't know what was ordered. 3-under bows are generally tillered even. These are apparently starting points as most 3-under shooters will readily admit it's noisier than split on the same bow, regardless of tiller. Given this observation, I asked not long ago why you don't see many bows negatively tillered (slightly greater distance string to riser on bottom limb) and found out it's a fairly common set-up for 3U ILF shooters. I'm getting a set of limbs negatively tillered and I'll keep you posted how they work out. There are evidently way more nuances in the way each of us shoot a bow than a bowyer can design for unless you ask for a certain feature. I think one of the curses of traditional archery is that after a few million shots your form (not that mine's anything to brag about,lol) gets consistent enough that you start tinkering with seemingly miniscule changes in grip, finger position/pressure on the string, etc. and you're stunned to discover how little it takes to make a bare shaft do horrible things! This can be highly rewarding when you know exactly what you intentionally changed and can "undo" it or a nightmare when it's the result of subtle bad habits that have crept into your form over time and you don't have a clue!
The Archery Traditions t/d recurve I'm shooting has the limbs marked as top and bottom, the top limb being very slightly weaker to create positive tiller. You can get negative for 3 under by switching the limbs. Did that accidentally for a guy who shot 3 under and the bow shot beautifully for him.
Rick, don't give up. Once you get it right you'll never look back.
Don't let this issue of a "loud" bow be frustrating... look at it as time to experiment, a challenge... time to spend outdoors having fun solving the issue.
Are you sure you are not hitting the riser with the arrow? Try raising the nock point some to see.
Different silencers make a big difference in sound from one bow to the next. Try some cat whiskers. Try two sets at/ & 1/4 points.
What is you bow weight at your draw length? What is your arrow shift type, length and point weight? Let's figure out where you really are for arrow weight to bow draw weight.
I will buy into the fact that something in the string construction could cause the string to unequally take twist changes. This would move the nock point a little. It could even cause some other minimal issues due the string flexing if it was all bound up on one end. I would think it would have to be a real bad string to do much. However, that will not impact tiller. The string is a simple tension member connecting the two limb ends. It makes no difference what that tension member is. The Force is the same and comes from the limbs.
The string can cause a bow to be loud. I'm going to have to disagree with the B50 guys, though. I've never been able to get a bow as quiet with B50 as I can with D97.
Barry Wensel shoots a Tall Tines bow, so I seriously doubt there is an inherent problem with your bow. Barry knows a thing or two about bows, I'm told.
You haven't answered whether you are shooting split or 3 under as far as I can see. Your bow will be louder shot 3 under as it is tillered for split. I assume you ordered the bow new, judging by what you paid, so you should have discussed your shooting style with the bowyer. That being the case, let's assume you shoot split, you told the bowyer that, and he built the bow to fit your shooting style.
Now that we can eliminate tiller as the issue, let's address the sound. The arrow hitting the bow on release will usually result in a clicking or scraping noise (like dragging an arrow shaft across the riser). Your description of the sound seems more like a twang or ring after the arrow leaves the bow. If that is the case, arrow spine can probably be ruled out, and possibly form issues as well.
Next, we need to address arrow weight. The heavier you go, the quieter you bow will be, generally speaking. Obviously, there is a point at which you lose more than you gain by adding arrow weight, but assuming you are not getting too carried away, heavier arrows = less noise. For under 20 bucks you can get a digital scale from several sponsors here. Since you have paid over a grand for your bow, this investment would seem wise and may keep your bow from just hanging on the wall. Shoot for an arrow that weighs about 10 grains per pound of draw weight. Eleven won't hurt. Much over 12 grains per pound, and I start to see my arrows drop faster than I like (messes up my internal calibration of where I'm going to hit). Make sure whatever weight you shoot is spined correctly. Many here bareshaft tune. I prefer paper tuning, but either one will get you there. Tuning is and ABSOLUTE MUST, not just for noise but for penetration and accuracy.
If your arrows are in the correct weight range, I'd change the brace height next. Most of the recurve bows I have had like higher rather than lower brace heights. Some of the old Bear bows were braced at 9 or even 10 inches, so don't be afraid to go higher than you are now.
You see, it is necessary to try to figure out what is NOT causing the noise before you can determine what IS. If you have padded the limbs, you have minimized one of the usual causes of noise in a recurve bow: string slap. Bow still twanging? Do you have a bow quiver available to try? Often a quiver full of arrows will absorb some or all of the twang. Just make sure your fletching doesn't touch or you will create a whole new noise. If the quiver works, you are set.
If the quiver didn't to the trick, it's time for a different string. Many, me included, have had success quieting bows by reducing the strand count in our strings. Some even go down to 6 strands, but I've never been comfortable with that nor have I found it necessary. I pad the loops with additional strands to 15-16 total. I normally use B50 for padding because I have a bunch and it is cheap. I have tried D97 as well for padding and can't tell any difference in noise, performance, or string creep, so being rather cheap, I opt to use B50 as do some of the professional string makers on here. The taper of the padded loop into the skinnier string seems to help reduce noise as does the reduced mass of the string. Theoretically, there is also some increased performance since more energy can be imparted on the arrow instead of being wasted with string mass. I can't say I've really noticed all that much difference myself, but I like quiet over speed, so I'm not really looking to gain performance.
Finally, I have to ask if your bow is a one piece or a three piece? I've had some three piece bows that needed just a bit of a cushion or pad between the riser and limbs. Neither of my current three piece bows do, but in the past I have had some that benefited from a thin pad of some sort. A simple layer of packing tape did it for one. A thin layer of cork gasket material or deerskin works well on some bows. In fact one of the bows I had came with cork padding installed. I can't seem to recall which bow it was, but that really doesn't matter.
Some guys see results using Limbsavers. I bought a bow that had them on it. I thought they were ugly and the bow was still louder than I like. I made a new string and it quieted right down. I took the limbsavers off and it was still quiet but looked much better. I think they are still in a drawer in my shop somewhere. I'd try them as a last resort, I suppose, but I doubt you will need them.
Traditional really is simpler. There are adjustments that can be made but they are really not all that difficult. Try one at a time, starting with the arrows, you will.
Probably the best advice I can give, especially if this is a new bow, is to call the man who built it and see what he recommends! I have never shot a Tall Tines bow, but they have a great reputation, so I'm sure the bowyer would do his best to make you happy with your bow. Most bowyers are more than willing to help you even if you bought the bow used. I have talked to several and got great responses.
Good luck with your new bow!
I had some recurves that refused to "shut up" until I got the brace height above 8"....one even at 8 3/4".....you might shed a tiny bit of speed by doing this, but so what. My situation was compounded by shooting 3 fingers under, which puts more stress on the lower limb.....I'd definitely play with it before trying any tiller modification.
I haven't read all of the posts but did anyone ask if you are shooting split finger or three under. With split the positive tiller will be fine but with three under it can make them very loud.
If you are shooting three under you may need to move your nock point up to about 3/4 inch to get the limbs back in timing.
Yep dang simple stick bows still require some knowledge to set up. But way fewer tools then a compound. LOL
Mike
30 coupe, I didn't read your whole post but Rick is very new to traditional and the bow isn't as loud as he is making it out to be. But getting a new adviser is funny. :laughing: Rick shoots three under at the moment and so do I. He has only been shooting for a week so he is not use to traditional bows at all!!! He doesn't like the accuracy compared to his compound and his compound has a different thump upon release than this bow. As any bowyer will tell you the nocking point can be adjusted to fit his or hers style of shooting even if the bow is tillered for split or vise versus.
f this! I will keep my compounds and all of you can have your sticks. I appreciate the help and tips. and 30 couple, I would bet the deed to my house that dirtybird could tune circles around a lot of people...I would bet that he will out shoot ninety percent of the people on this forum. I see him hit pop cans at fifty yards all day with his recurves. no offense to anyone here...I appreciate the help, I really do...but this just isn't for me. I want to be able to pick up my bow and hammer a baseball sized target at fifty yards, ten out of ten times. I can do that all day with my compounds, and don't want to really piss with this crap right now. I thought I did, but I really don't. I don't have the patience right now for it.
Baseball size groups at 50 yards! I guess Robin Hood is in town. :eek: Did you ever get in touch with the bowyer? Usually they are very helpful. I don't doubt dirty birds shooting but expecting to get a new traditional bow and shoot like that is kinda like, :archer2:
Rick, I bet you are right about Dave. I also bet he can shoot your bow as well as you say. But it is not a compound, so taking it to someone to have them tune it for you isn't quite the way it works. Even if you both shoot three under, your draw length, your form, and your release will be different. While others can certainly help, and it sounds as if Dave has TRIED to help you, you have to tune your own bow. Most of us here happen to like that aspect of traditional archery.
My sincere apologies to Dave (Dirtybird). I have no doubt you have tried your best, Dave.
Traditional archery does require patience. I've been shooting traditional bows for over 50 years, and I still hope to someday be able to hit pop cans at 50 yards all day. I certainly can't yet, but I'm very patient so it may happen one day. Deer at anything under 25 yards are no problem though, so I guess I'll stay with my sticks. :archer:
QuoteOriginally posted by East Coast archer:
Baseball size groups at 50 yards! I guess Robin Hood is in town. :eek: Did you ever get in touch with the bowyer? Usually they are very helpful. I don't doubt dirty birds shooting but expecting to get a new traditional bow and shoot like that is kinda like, :archer2:
seems like a lot of you on here read, but don't comprehend what you read...I never once said that I expect to shoot like that with a trad bow. I can shoot all day like that with my compounds. I got a nice recurve and expected to have a 'simple' bow and just be fun. so far it has been anything but simple, and that is okay...don't get me wrong, but I guess I jumped in a little quick. I can tune a compound like not many people I know, and didn't expect to have to do the same thing with a recurve. I am also not crazy about the 'feel' of a traditional bow, or the fact that I have to buy a bunch of other stuff...not that I HAVE to, but I would...anyways, it is all meaningless now, because dave just picked up the bow and I am just going to stick with my compound bows. I had fun on here and appreciate all the help and your brotherhood...wish the compound guys were more like you guys are. oh well, I am not a big 'forum guy' because of the bad taste archery talk left in my mouth. anyways, you guys are top notch fellas in my opinion and a great group of people. good luck to you all and take care. I may drop by from time to time, but I am just not a traditional archer, at least not by the gear I choose to use, but you guys all fit the bill when it comes to a good group of people.
for not being a "forum guy" you sure have the drama down!!!
Maybe you should have started with a Hill style longbow and tried something completely different, like shooting a bow like Howard Hill. Trying to make a recurve take the place of a compound without changing the hunting and shooting philosphy just does not work. This is about adventure and personal challenge, it is not for everyone. This all kind of reminds me when I started one Canadian canoe trip. A group of guys, all except one had never been in a canoe before, the only boats they had any experience with were Ranger bass boats. They loaded their canoe ten feet from the water climbed in and asked for a push. They were afraid that they were going to get their feet wet.
My apology, a baseball at 50 yards, that's more like it :clapper: all that was meant is that you can't really expect that with your first trad bow. Only having fun with ya and good luck.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rick Moss:
no quiver. moved the string silencers up and down. got the arrows from dave, he said they are plenty heavy enough...but either of us know the grain weight. moved the BH around. nocks are actually a little looser than I like, but they work....who knows. I will figure it out, or I will hang it on the wall and it will be an $1180 wall decoration.
Here is something to try before you go hanging it on the wall brutha.... Try heeling down a bit on the grip. Typically if the limbs are the same length, and the deepest part of the grip is located dead center of the bow. even to 1/8th positive tiller should work for most of the guys from high wrist to medium pressure on the grip.
For guys that are accustomed to shooting a straight grip, or even a locator grip with more pressure on the heel, a more positive tiller like you have discribed will help with vibration and noise level....
A bow can be balanced to different pressure point locations on the grip. Tiller CAN make a difference in extreme conditions.
Twisting a string or adjusting brace will NOT effect tiller. tiller is only a measurement from the limb fades to the string at brace. nothing is going to change that but a bowyer on a one piece bow....
have you ever noticed how some bows feel different and react different than others? I'm not talking performance. I'm talking how it feels after the shot. You can spend years looking for the perfect bow that is balanced just perfect to match your shooting style, and horse around tuning arrows for it.. and some guys actually find the right set up eventually..... Or.... You can try having something custom built to match your shooting style some time.... Night and day difference bro....Kirk
btw.... is this a TD bow? or a one piece?
The answer to your question is yes, tiller does matter in recurve bows, and longbows, and selfbows! Also, there is nothing wrong with your tiller measurements!
Bisch
Well looks to me like i wasted my breath.... a whole lot of posts came in on this thread before i hit the send button..... oooops!
Yup.... traditional archery can be one of the most humbling things you ever do after coming off being an excellent archer with a compound bow...
But....Once you are ready to make the commitment, and take the time to learn it well... it can also be one of the most satisfying adventures you've ever taken... Good luck to you and good hunting... Kirk
I enjoyed the privilege of discussing tiller at great length with none other than Earl Hoyt. He told me that he had strong feelings about tiller until he tried some experiments with a leading Olympic archer. He tried positive tiller, negative tiller... and it didn't seem to much matter over a fairly wide range.
More recently, I received a set of limbs that were mismatched. It just happened that I put them on two risers with different amounts of preload. The first bow, without much preload, tuned and shot well enough that nothing seemed to be wrong. Then I put them on a the riser with more preload and ... holy crap! I realized they were like an inch different! Pretty eye-opening.
I'm not saying tiller doesn't matter, but I am saying that I'd like to do some experimenting before concluding that it is as important as it commonly is thought to be.
Rick, this isn't for everyone. It's not for the guy who wants to pick up a bow without much practice and hunt. It's not for the guy who wants instant gratification. It's for the guy who wants to shoot in a way that is personal, with equipment that is personalized, and didn't come off the shelf ready to hit bullseyes. I don't think it's for you. This is something you must work at, and want to do because it feels good, and expect to devote some time to learning. Good luck with your machine.
:thumbsup: :archer:
I want to hit a baseball ten times out of ten times at 50 yards to. I need someone to recommend a bow that will do that for me, pretty sure that I won't be able to do that for myself.
Very entertaining thread.
It is a bummer. With a traditional bow you not only have to learn to shoot; but you have to learn to hunt so you can get within the limited range of a less precise weapon. Rats.
I had a friend/mentor who could repeatedly put five arrows in a group at 30 yards you could enclose with your thumb and forefinger. He was amazing (and one of the last NY State competitors to win or place with wood arrows). He could likely have given you a run at 50 yards.
I used to shoot for 5ยข a shot kitty with a neighboir with my compound at 50 yards on softball sized balloons. Nickle a shot and if you missed and the other guy hit you won the kitty. We'd sometimes get up to a dollar. I am nowhere near that good with a traditional bow - but I never did kill a deer with a compound for stupid reasons like picking the wrong pin, over shooting when the deer flinched, deer spooking from the noise as I drew, bobbling an arrow trying to use a mnechanical release, etc., etc.
I also didn't like the fact that stump shooting was too hard on aluminum arrows with the compound. It was no fun in the off season.
I learned to play to my limits and I now hunt where I can get the deer to within 25 yards. Very thick cover. I also practice daily, year round. Traditional archery is a committment; not something you can dust off for three weeks a year and forget the rest of the time.
I can hit a golfball at 200 yards with my 25.06.
That is not going to make me stop shooting my bow and hunting with it.
God bless, Steve
QuoteOriginally posted by Sixby:
I can hit a golfball at 200 yards with my 25.06.
That is not going to make me stop shooting my bow and hunting with it.
God bless, Steve
Well said.
QuoteOriginally posted by bamboo:
.......you can NOT adjust tiller or pull one limb or the other more by twisting the string on different ends-period
I tend to agree with the above statement.....
Unless I missed it, you never said whether or not you are shooting 3-under or split finger.
I shoot 3-under and I have my nocking point set 7/8" higher than 90 degrees perpendicular.
Kirk made a good point that you have to learn how the bow likes to be shot if the grip was not customized for your shooting style, play with pressure points.
Also good was up nock point to 3/4" and check bare shaft tune, by the way how are you tuning?
My thoughts are nock point low or tune, arrow may be to stiff.
I have played a lot with different tiller with ILF bows and nock point adjustment can compensate for most.
While trad may not be for you I encourage you to return to it once you have settled down a bit. Your frustration was very evident from an earlier post. Wish you good fortune with your endeavor.
I could not take this thread very serious, considering the question in the first post about string twisting. Then the "f this" and the claim that his best buddy could out shoot, obviously the best shot in the world, and out tune anybody. If his buddy was that good, he would not have needed to ask the question. This game is not for the weak willed that want it all to come easy.
Pavan :thumbsup: