Hello all,
Greetings from SE Pennsylvania.
I must admit I haven't been hunting as much as I would have wanted to this year, but I have actually done quite a bit more scouting. To be honest, I am amazed. I have not seen ANY sign of deer for the past 3 months. A field near me alternates corn and soy. Every year that corn is planted, the day after it's cut, there is a herd of deer there feeding. This was a "corn" year. I snuck in to scout (this was a few months ago) and was amazed to see NO sign of deer. No scat, no prints in the dirt, nothing. I've been checking in here and there, but still nothing.
Another spot I try is a small plot of land near a church. They don't come through there thick, but there is almost always some sign. This year, again, nothing.
In fact, the only real "signs of life" I've seen is during the crop damage hunts during the summer (those weren't with bow). Under the program, I can take an antlerless deer. All I saw was a 4-pointer (not legal at any time). Even on this farm, there is barely any sign of activity.
In fact, in hind-sight, I actually don't recall seeing as many while driving around to work and the stores. I also don't recall much road-kill.
Is anyone else experiencing this or am I just worrying too much and should just get out more? It has been cooler recently. Tomorrow is supposed to be colder around here than it has for the last 2 winters. Again, just wondering if it's me. Season's closed until Monday after Thanksgiving. I hope to take the Helm's Deep for a walk on the farm that day. Maybe some other hunters will bump a few my way. Who knows? Up until now, I've seen 'em but haven't gotten 'em. Maybe this will be my year? :pray:
Be well, hunt safe.
Alex
:archer2:
Alex - I also live in SE PA and it appears the deer have left the county. Strange year for me as well in regards to deer numbers. I did see a good amount of doe early on in the season but the buck sightings were way down and I hunt some quality areas. I contribute some of it to the higher than normal temps we experienced in October.
Ron
Same thing here in southern WV also Alex. You have any deep snows past couple of winters? Art
Its not just you and your area of PA. I have noticed the same thing up here in southern Ontario. Have seen very little sign and have not been seeing the deer on way to or from work in the fields. Not sure what is going on. Is it the weather patterns? Is it the result of a boom in the predator population? Not sure. But I know it isn't just me either. 2 years ago I could have applied for 7 tags in the areas I hunt and these were for doe or buck. Last year it was down to two. And this year 1 tag only. So the MNR must be seeing a decline as well.
I think you've got a squatch in your area....
ok kidding, seriously ive heard of that in a few places this year. our numbers in general are down here so I know the feeling. I will say this, though. my friend in ohio, who I was recently staying and hunting with, was seeing many less deer on his place, but while I was there they just kind of showed up. maybe theyre just not staying in traditional spots this year, but are still around..
I'm in a part of NE Kansass that was hit by EHD last year and coyotes for more than a couple years. We don't see nearly the numbers, doe or buck, that are being seen an hours drive south of me.
Oh, and I am hunting private land... :dunno:
Same here, I was just talking with a friend but this year has been the lowest deer number I have seen since I've been hunting, at least in my usual area.
strange her in ohio also
Aug and Sept I saw more deer than ever
After the early black powder season they seemed to vanished
You may not know this but they hide under ground and levitate around when they are above ground!
Or they may have came South, we won't get into politics.
Call the wildlife biologist, they can fill you in.
Deer sightings down here also. In our case we have lots of acorns everywhere so the deer have very little reason to move much.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :)
QuoteOriginally posted by Missouri Bowman:
Same here, I was just talking with a friend but this year has been the lowest deer number I have seen since I've been hunting, at least in my usual area.
Me too, did not see a single deer from stand all bow season. Bumped a few going in very early in the season, then not even that.
Acorns were bumper crop crazy though maybe they weren't having to move as much.
I've been getting similar reports from all over the U.S. Some areas that had good mast crops and some that did not; some that harvested corn late only to find out they weren't in the corn either; no EHD finds; no more predators or poaching than normal; minimal to no rubs/scrapes compared to normal; next to no bucks actively chasing; minimal deer seen from the road, running the fields with their tongues hanging out during the rut. I'm not positive but I think I have it figured out. I think the Whitetail Rapture hit. The only deer left are non-Christian muslims. bw
Barry- You are a hoot!
That's funny Barry!
Here too in Manitoba deer numbers are way down. Record year for crops and still the numbers are low. 2 tough winters and tons of wolves seem to be taking their toll!
It's not you. Don't even get me started on this pa stuff. I don't like how they manage deer. They are probably the richest state from all the hunters. And I see nothing but new vehicles, and other expenses and the deer herd is going to crap. It's been for last 5 years. It's terrible I allot of places. I don't even want to think about it... I like to complaine about Pa
Same thing in my area????????
doug77
EHD was bad in places in MO this year, but fortunately my hunting area in the SW part of the state was spared. I've seen plenty, shot two does, and there are bucks everywhere. We had a complete acorn crop failure last year, but this year is making up for it. Nearly every oak is bearing, and the white oak acorns are larger than usual.
They all came to my place.
The deer #'s around my area are and have been way down in number for a few years now. I know the coyotes thinned them down, but their #'s continue to decline even with the coyotes gone. Very few road killed dear and not one sighting of a buck chasing this season. Plenty of food in some areas,and there are no deer there to eat it.Boomer fruit crops this year, domestic and wild, apples,pears, berries, wild grapes, crab apples. With low acorn production this year, the deer should be all over the fruit! Their not, because the deer just aren't here. What deer I do see seem to be concentrated closer to the villages and cities for the most part. Something strange going on I would say.
Dave up by me in Bath I'm finding the same thing . Not one buck has been seen chasing all fall. My trail cams on major runs go for over a week sometimes with no pictures . Scrapes opened early haven't been visited in over a month . Most of the does we do see don't have any fawns just three or four adult does together. I know guys around me have hit the does hard for years and I think it's catching up. I am really saddened and concerned about what's happening to the deer .
EHD and a severe drought last year took a toll on our herd here in eastern NE - numbers much lower this year than in the past several years. Will take a few years for the population to return to numbers of 2 years ago! I am curious what the harvest numbers will be from our rifle season that is going on right now.
Bob, I'm not sure who or what entities are the most to blame? DEC or insurance companies, but between the re-introduction of coyotes, and the greed spawned over distribution of deer tags has done exactly what they wanted............ increased moneys threw license sales and fewer deer/ vehicle claims. The true sportsman pays the most.......again!!
We have been spared any mass die offs that I'm aware of. We have more mast that we have ever had. The apple trees have piles of apples rotting under them where not one apple would last a day in the past and acorns like I have never seen. My father saw five deer all archery season two small bucks and three lone does without fawns. Even the coyotes seem to have moved on with few tracks and very little howeling this year. I have also seen more mid day movement as opposed to early morning movement. I hope the deer can rebound from whatever is going on .
I live in northern Michigan, land of "if it's brown, it's down". Enough said.
Don't feel alone!
I calculated the average deer harvest using the ODNR's numbers for Ohio's "best" deer counties. The overall harvest is down 17.5% in our best counties. This is a big deal! The harvest has declined 4 of the last 5 years. The worst thing about this year, is that the harvest is down EVEN WITH AN ADDED GUN SEASON. The outdoor news reported road kills were down 10% last year and I bet is even higher by the end of this year. I really think the numbers of deer have taken a nose dive everywhere.
Just my thoughts,
-Charlie
Chem. Trails? :dunno:
They are coming to my farm. Once the shooting starts, they flock to my place for sanctuary. I give them a vacation. Deer are showing up on my trail camera that I have not seen in a while. The other thing is I have pics of small deer running and coyotes trailing them about 2-3 minutes behind on two occasions in the last 7 days.
I actually have seen more deer this year than last but it is still way down from what it was a few years ago. Too many freezer tags and coyotes...... :banghead: :dunno:
I haven't seen but one deer from my stand in the last 6 or more hunts and he saw or smelled me first.
Only decent buck I've seen from stand I killed it 3wks ago
I was seeing plenty of doe and real small bucks first part of season when I had one white oak bench located that was really putting out. Since those are gone so are the deer.
There's only one standing cornfield left in the area and it's right behind my house..bout 75acres or so. Usually there's plenty of acorns on the far off ridges to pull them out at night and I can catch them coming and going, but not this yr.
It's got an old pond in it and if the deer aren't holed up in the cornfield..they ain't here.
No rut that I've seen any evidence of either..yet.
Gun season opens tomorrow..so things won't get much better I'm afraid.
I saw one spike buck first of October , to far to shoot . I have seen no tracks , scat , rubs or scrapes sense . Gun season has been open sense November 15 and I am not hearing any shots either . :dunno:
Kind of the same situation here depending on where your hunting. Regardless the deer seem spread out and thin compared to eariler years. Kiyotes have increased but from what ive read kiyotes prefer wounded or hurt deer or roadkill. Not that they cant kill a mature whitetail its just harder and more energy consuming. Im not finding dead carcasses so I dont belive they are dying off but perhaps so much hunting pressure their going Nocturnal? All my usual hot areas for the rut are deserted.
I'm having the same issue in western Maryland, our season starts in early September and I would say that from that day until now I have seen 20 deer total, strangely, most of the deer have been bucks with very few doe and yearling sightings. We have 15 cameras running on our farm and they are not getting many pics either. I haven't seen much rut activity at all yet. Our rifle season starts the Saturday after thanksgiving so I will be curious to see how they do.
Rodney
I hear 16 shots opening day of Gun season where years past you would hear 200-250 before you quit counting.
I still have been seeing the same amount of deer but I have been improving as a hunter and deer sightings are still low here in NY.
I think Aliens have realized how good deer taste. :rolleyes:
And the third Angel sounded. And the name of the star is called Wormwood: And a third part of the waters became wormwood.........
The Bees, the Monarch,the Deer ??? IMHO!!
Checking in from Western PA, WMU 1A. We've got loads of deer over here and a lot of really nice bucks running around. The apple mast was really great due to no late frosts so the deer have been feasting on those. I've noticed that the hard mast crop has been good in most areas I hunt though some areas are sparce on acorns. Amazing numbers of hickory nuts and walnuts all around. I've noticed the highest numbers of squirrels I've ever seen and can limit out any day I go out, as long as it isn't terribly windy. There are plenty of coons and beavers as well, for all the trappers. Things are good on this side of the state. We haven't had a deep snow since the blizzard that wrecked Pittsburgh 3 years ago, which resulted in quite a few starved deer. Turkeys in my area are difficult to locate though and I attribute that to the increase in coyote and fisher populations. I've seen 2 fishers in the past two years, however both were near the Warren/Erie County line in Pittsfield, PA. One of those fishers was in the chicken coop I was getting ready to clean out and I had to run him off with a pitch fork! I've noticed that porcupines have also moved into the area that I live and hunt, which may result in the fishers moving down here as well.
Anyway, I'm rambling. Here's a video of the fisher I saw while turkey hunting. He appeared to be at least 36 inches long.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY23AOqwJMA
I apologize for the vertical video, I was excited at the time.
Deer way down for me (and others) in Michigan this year. Depending on the area, it's wolves, EHD, or the early seasons and ample doe tags we have (we have an early doe season, an early youth hunt, and an early disabled veterans hunt). When October 1st rolls around, our deer have been shot at for 2 weeks already.
Couple that with bizarre weather....rain(lots of standing corn still)....wind.....and I can't wait for rabbit season.
In WI where we hunt on public land the deer numbers are beginning to go up a bit. They were so low a few years ago that hunting seemed useless. Blame what you may for your state in WI, in my opinion, it was an overabundance of shooting does. Almost everybody does it. Even hunters that will go all season long hunting an area and only see one deer will shoot it even if it's a doe. Then they will complain about no deer. Our specific area has for about 3 years now limited doe killing to low numbers and they are making a slight comeback. Next year looks like it might be exciting again...
The last few times my wife has been in her stand she has seen and heard bucks chasing does. We haven't noticed a decline in numbers but deer behavior is a bit "off". They are just now beginning to get "normal" again. Been hearing very little firearm shooting but big blocks of private land around us has been posted due to hunter abuse and misuse. In a year or two I expect that our numbers will grow in our little area simply because people are fed up with hunters. We own our own 23 acres right in the middle of the posted area so........
By the way, I missed the same doe twice this week. Today is the last day I can shoot a doe so we'll see. My back issues have kept me from my normal practicing so. I have been hunting an apple tree about 1/2 mile from the stand I set up for Laura. We had five or so PY bucks before their velvet shed and she and I want her to get a good buck so I have been leaving her area alone. It probably will pay off. She missed a spike horn twice yesterday. One the first shot her elbow hit the tree she was in and the second shot she simple shot at the whole deer and missed. She herd bucks grunting and running does in the swamp all afternoon.
I am sorry to hear of the decline in numbers in your areas. I hunt in TX and MS and we have as many deer as ever. Maybe more. Reading this whole thread is spooky. MS is succumbing to pressure from the insurance companies and doing all they can to increase harvest. I wonder if they have done the math on what having the densest deer herd in the country does for the economy. My land wouldn't be worth half as much if the deer were gone. We do have more coyotes every year. You never saw or heard coyotes east of the Mississippi River when I was a kid. My father killed the first one we had ever seen in the mid '80s. Now they are everywhere and you hear them every evening. I hope this phenomenon doesn't spread across the whole country.
Bonner
Here in Ohio the DNR has changed over to a call in only to report game harvest. You no longer have to bring your game harvest to a specific location and have it "Checked in" by a person who inspects that it was an arrow used for archery and shot gun slug (not a rifle bullet). All anyone has to do is just call it in on a phone and press one for this and two for that. Its all automated. The human has been removed from the check in process. That is a huge open door for those that just take. Just another piece of the puzzle here in Ohio.
QuoteOriginally posted by Art B:
Same thing here in southern WV also Alex. You have any deep snows past couple of winters? Art
Art, last 2 winters have been a bust as far as snow in my area. I live in Allentown, PA. 2 years ago we had a bad storm end of October. Caused lots of tree damage as the leaves were still on the trees so the trees couldn't handle the weight. Rest of the winter, about 2" total for the whole winter. Last year was the hurricane, but that was about it. Wondering if we'll get any this year.
BTW: Thanks all for the replies. In a way, I'm glad I'm not alone, but at the same time it's sad to hear. Just a thought. I hope I'm wrong here, I REALLY hope I'm wrong. For anyone that subscribes to TBM or PA ("Traditional BowHunter Magazine" or "Primitive Archer"), I remember an op-ed in one of them about deer numbers. The author basically said that deer numbers were higher now than they ever have been and that we're long due for an "adjustment". He predicted that within a decade we would see a dramatic drop in deer numbers due to many variables (predator reintroduction, urbanization, disease, etc). I am just wondering if that little "dooms-day prophesy" is starting to come true. Hope not.
:pray:
A few years ago we had a devastating snow storm of 30+" the 18th of Dec.. And that would have been the trailing end of the second rut. Mortality rate would have been great for bucks that were in a post-rut run-down condition to begin with. Deer numbers seem to be down 75-80% on our property since then. This being the worst year....Art
Whitetails have always amazed me by their ability to adapt and survive. However..there just might be an outside chance all the modern technology and equipment being used now days may be having an affect on their numbers.
Just to throw one small example out..it's not uncommon to kill one now from 50 to 60yds and more with a compound..and how many people hunt with those.
I won't speculate on this upcoming point too much, but I am worried about distance shooting. This was just mentioned above and can kill a lot of unrecovered deer. I am thinking specifically of one group that wounded(likely fatally) 4 bucks before successfully getting 2 others. That's 6 deer, but only 2 reported dead. The unrecovered deer do not make the stats. If there are even 10 groups that do this then there are 40 unreported deer. I would think the number is actually much higher than that.
Just guessing and thinking out loud,
-Charlie
I agree with buckeye_hunter I think more deer are killed that were not found than the number of deer that were found..times that by the record number of hunters or so called hunters and that can add up very quickly
I hats to bring up the dreaded X-guns, but they are now legal during all archery seasons here in PA. You're now talking muzzle loader distances. Especially noe that scopesbsre allowed. Maybe buckeye_hunter has a point.
They are legal in Kansass too...
Guys, legal hunting cannot wipe out the deer. You can take 40% of a deer herd without reducing it. That's their reproduction rate. A couple of my friends use crossbows (shoulder injuries), and they are no threat. I don't like them, but I don't think they're any more "deadly" than a regular compound. If there is truly a reduction in deer population other than in isolated spots, something else is at work. We don't really understand all the workings of nature, and fluctuations in population are normal for all species. This too will pass.
I have to disagree to a point. Most guys today are with better equipment. Love shooting and practice all the time. I think there are better ratio of deer to kills. Accuracy is beyond. They 15 - so yard shot we take can't hold a candle to others. I mean really they can slam a deer at 30-40 pretty well with great accuracy. I am not a tradition snoob. I may get blasted for that comment but to each his own. I and not against compounds or x bows. I think they are way more deadly than the equipment we use. Without a doubt. Now yeah we are deadly at the distances we shoot. But if I had to go take an animal other than the rifle I know what I'm reaching for. And it's not made of wood.
I don think there is more wounded deer no. I honk there are more accurate shot and more deer being killed because of the power and accuracy of new weapons. This may be an issue that was not considered from the past is a more lethal group of hunters afield. But the states know this and can see it on the harvest reports.
Bad acorn crop across the us yes. Poor management in some states, absolutely, a newer breed or more deadly accurate hunters absolutely, big buck craze absolutely, a low year on deer numbers due to mast absolutely. We needed to be hunting more agriculture and surrounding areas. If you can't or was not able to your not going to be on deer. Next year maybe a good one. I'm going to duck now so I don't get shot for my post. Lol :goldtooth:
It's really according to what legal hunting is. In my opinion a lot of states..Illinois included don't really want large populations of deer and have changed laws, added seasons, to reduce the herd for insurance companies, farmers, etc.
That along with more advanced equipment used in seasons that weren't intended for their range and effectiveness will decimate a deer herd in the type of terrain Illinois has..no big swamps or places the deer can hole up in and escape pressure like in the south and some other parts of the country with more liberal seasons, dog hunting, etc.
Actually if you put compounds, scoped inlines and crossbows in modern weapons season along with rifles, shotguns and handguns I think things would be more like intended in the beginning.
Just my opinion.
I don't think there is single answer for all the areas experiencing a decline in deer. So all the ideas expressed are probably factors.
The area of Indiana I hunt has experienced a significant decline in the past couple of years. I talked with some of our DNR folks and here are the key points they have made.
Generally speaking the weather across the state has really benefited farmers this year. Also a good mast crop, so the deer numbers for the whole state are likely up.
Ups and downs of the deer population are very spotty with some counties way up and others down.
There have been outbreaks of EHD. Years of extended dry spells seem to increase the population of the midge flies that transmit the disease and/or concentrate the deer around scarce water sources making it easier for the midge to get to larger numbers. Most deaths happen in late August and early September before a frost kills the midge. EHD outbreaks can be very localized. With very high mortality rates, a local group of deer can simply disappear. Hunters in such an area can see a dramatic change in sightings in just 3-4 weeks.
A lot of people around me are still out of work, or working many fewer hours than before. Lot of folks hunting for food that may not have other wise hunted.
Poaching is up likely for the same reason.
Despite large numbers of anterless permits, the buck to doe ratio is still very low in many areas as a lot of hunters still fixate on a trophy. I've suggested, and no one in DNR listens, they should consider saying for the low ratio counties, one has to tag a doe before they can get a buck. Low rations make it harder for the herd to recover in down areas, and hunting is not as much fun. For example, rut sign is minimal in low ratio areas.
The population seems to recover, but it can take a long time. I used to do a lot of hunting in SE Ohio. Lots of deer, good ratios, plenty of sign in the 80's and 90's. The area I hunted was written up in a couple of national magazines and the herd went to pot in the early 2000's. I think to over hunting. Just now seeing it recover.
I'm in western Illinois. Our numbers are terrible. While hunting two or three times I've seen yearlings that should have a doe with them, but they are all alone. Numbers are just not there. I'm on private land, hundreds of acres.
Admittedly, I am a bit of a conspiracy theorist. But for years the bag limit has been very high, which according to some, is due to the efforts of insurance companies trying to reduce the number of deer to reduce the insurance claims. Maybe, maybe not, but there are a whole lot of dead deer on the Georgia roads every day. Another thought is that unreported die offs have taken place. Whatever the case, I have not been seeing as many deer in recent years. I have also noted an increase in sleek looking, well fed coyotes in my area.
If the DNR is trying to reduce the herd why is it hard to believe that they are accomplishing it?
I agree with the coyote comment. I saw two very well feed coyotes from my stand about three weeks ago. They were the size of german shepards they were tracking an injured buck I saw run by me on three legs the night before. Who ever shot it only hit the lower leg.
As for deer, I was seeing a lot of bucks before gun season but now their gone. I believe once gun season starts the deer just go noctural for a few weeks. I do believe it matters where and how you hunt (food source vs. rut). I always hunt food/water sources and the deer seem to be in the agriculture fields this year. I have only seen one deer in the hardwood forests.
A cousin shot a doe that had been attacked by yotes. Her nose and tongue was all chewed up. He shot three yotes chasing a doe last week.
I carry a 17 HMR with me at all times when bow hunting. I shoot several coyotes every year while I am bow hunting. Last year I shot 5 and have seen great deer numbers this year!
I don't think it's legal to carry both during archery but I really don't care. I always mean to hunt coyotes after deer season but as you know, its just hard to find the time.
Guys, if you are hunting deer, you need to take up predator hunting.
I think about these things a lot and I believe in my area there are a number of factors at play. In my area deer numbers are half of what they were 20 years ago. The number one culprit in my opinion was when our state went to unlimited doe tags for bowhunters. Add this to the fact that compound bows have become at least twice as effective as they were 20 years ago and more deer are gonna bite the dust. Coyotes have increased almost beyond belief. In my fertile area of the Midwest it used to be fairly common to see does with triplet fawns. Not anymore. In fact most does only have 1 fawn now. I'm convinced the coyote predation on fawns is much higher than what some people believe. Since it is very hard to control coyotes the easiest solution is to cut back on the doe tags.
I agree that hunting can't "wipe out" deer, at least not completely however, when unlimited doe tags are given and people use them it can come close. Rifle hunters do drives, hunt in unbelievable numbers and can legally purge a whole area from deer. I have heard people boasting about their hunting group shooting 20-30 deer and all from a small area. This makes hunting next year almost hopeless. This has happened in WI for a number of years now and it shows. Thankfully in some areas they have begun to limit the tags for a couple of years and in some small areas they are coming back. The other positive if it can be called that is that the hunting has been so bad lately that many have given up and gone elsewhere or just don't hunt at all, so no matter how many tags they issue some people just won't hunt especially on public land and some of these areas are getting a bit better. There was in our state (WI) a concerted effort to reduce the deer herd and it worked too well. It was sold to the public by telling them that the herd numbers were unbelievably high and we all were supposed to do our part to keep them down. Unfortunately it worked and sadly it took years for hunters to believe their experiences over the DNR propaganda. I am hoping it gets better...
High bag limits + predators eating most of the young and old dying off = no deer. IMO
I have hunted for almost 50 years. I have chosen to be a meat hunter and I feel that no one should kill more Deer than their family can eat. My son and I usually kill two of three Deer each year and that provides my family with enough meat for the year. There are hunters that kill every legal Deer they see,there is no way they can eat all of the meat. In the area that I hunt you will hear of hunters killing 15 plus deer every year, what a waste.
I had made some comments on deer in Iowa having lower number. I read an DRA article that finally states (if you are not seeing very many does it would be good to let them pass.) This is a little late after they took all the out of state hunters revenue!!!! Maybe this will wake some people up!!
State DNR's have been actively and aggressively been trying to lower deer herd numbers since the late 1990's.
With those high numbers came more crop damage, car accidents and then diseases like CWD and TB. Add falling hunter numbers and aging hunters and state DNR's now want to keep deer herds at a lower, but sustained number. Deer herds can double in size in about 3 years if allowed to, but it takes 15 years of aggressive harvest to cut herds in half.
State DNR's don't "give out" most tags, other than in extreme crop damage or disease zones. No, it's we the hunters that buy the tags and fill them.
States aren't going to allow herds to get big again, That era is over and came with some hard lessons.
I'm not sure even many hunters understand how fast deer herds can grow, unless you really keep your foot on it. For example, in 1926 the Manitou Island Association released 4 bucks and 5 does on North Manitou Island. Two of the bucks died the first day. But by 1943, there was roughly 2000 deer on the island. That's something!
All the deer you guys aren't seeing must have have moved onto my place,I can hardly get down my driveway without have to move deer out of the way.