cooking up a new buff arrow at the moment to go with the new black douglas HEX6 BB2 recurve i bought. the bow is 70#@28", i draw about 26.5"
arrow shaft is axis 300. 300gr tuff head and 6.5" 2016 footing. i've had some 'custom' adapters made that weigh 360gr. this gives me about 730gr upfront. total arrow weight at full length is 1100gr.
remember i will have a 6.5" footing which will reduce the length of the flexible portion of the shaft. the flexible portion of shaft at my minimum arrow length of 27 1/2" will be about 21 1/4".
the custom adapter can be trimmed to reduce point weight.
the footing will be drawn onto the bow, effectively padding out the strike plate a little.
the balance point of the arrow will lie within the footing, IMHO, greatly reducing , if not eliminating the chance of breakage behind the footing.
i need to get some 2016 shafts for footing material before i can try them out. till then, do you think i'll get them going?
Ouch ,take care,the shaft can break ...
I'm sure they'll go, but range will be an issue, or really trajectory will be, I believe.
I have a 72# Hill bow and with an arrow in the 700gr range I find it flies about as fast and with the same trajectory as my #47 Hill with 450ish gr arrows. There's no doubt the 700gr arrow hits the target harder and penetrates deeper, but with the ratios being about the same the trajectory is about the same.
Let us know how it works. If you shoot it enough and get the arrow flight/drop in your mind's aiming processors it shouldn't be a major concern. Tuning it will be something I'd like to hear about too as you progress.
What is your arrow shaft choice and spine?
I'm one of the craziest arrow guys I know, and that sounds very extreme to me. First I'd worry about the bow and the *20gpp you'd be asking that bow to push. If the bowyer says it's safe, you should give it a shot. I hope it's cut about 1/4th" past center, if it's cut farther you might need to pad it to make the Axis/2016 work.
Next, I'd look hard at adhesives you plan to use. As soon as I went crazy I had all sorts of stuff failing me there. Super glue, insert iron, hot glue, etc. I had some chats with Jay Campbell who has had great luck with the original Gorilla Glue, but JB Weld ended up being my answer for everything. Good luck finding yours before you loose any Expen$ive 300 grain points into target butts!
Finally, a 2016 shaft is pretty thin walled and as an aluminum arrow it's quite prone to bending and breakage. I'll say that I've found any amount of footing to be better than none, but I've been toying with the idea of turning my own footings on a lathe so I could use materials other than aluminum and tweak thickness. Be sure to do a nice soft bevel on the footing if you are pulling it over the shelf.
I'm half tempted not to post this as I'm just another "internet expert" who hasn't shot a buffalo yet, but I do have lots of hands on testing time shooting hard targets so I hope something above is helpful. Let me know if you want to go over any tests or results in detail.
Thom
Axis...see it now..dang morning eyes DOH!
Ozy I have shoot that weight with ABS Safari shaft out of a 63 lbs recurve and they did quite well. I will agree with sticknstones on glues Gorilla glue or J B Weld.
Don't worry about trajectory , they will fly straight .I owned Black Douglas HEX6 BB2 , you can put more weight if you want . Joy in your bow .
Only i can recommended Carbon Express Heritage or Gold Tip Traditional
I think you might be on to something with the long 2016 footing. I wonder if the added clearance and front end stiffness will aid Accurate arrow flight?
I've used the footing on my Axis but it was 2013s with epoxy and only 3/4" long. The 2013 fit perfect with a thin epoxy layer, I don't know if 2016 would work.
I shot my buff with an 850 gr arrow ( pass through) but if I did it again would be at 1000 gr
QuoteOriginally posted by sticksnstones:
First I'd worry about the bow and the *20gpp you'd be asking that bow to push.
1050gr (allowing some trimming) and 68-70# draw weight is around 15gpp not 20gpp.
this should actually be very close to the arrow weight of the point of diminishing returns in terms of momentum. any more weight and momentum values start going down again. 1000gr arrow mass was this tipping point for my 69#bob lee recurve. the more efficient black douglas should be at that 1000-1100gr range for maximum momentum from the bow.
trajectory won't be an issue. i shoot my buffulo inside 20 yards. :archer2:
Sounds silly, but make sure your nocks are strong and up to it. Using a mid 80s# bow and a modified Beman Hunter (the skinny one with outserts) I blew up two nocks (on release) using a 1100 grain + arrow. Solder, wrapped in yarn, inside the shaft really adds some weight.
Don't be surprised if you knock the target over when it hits it.
Owie !
ChuckC
Good luck with your set-up.
Would be interested in the final arrow design and also what back stop proves durable enough.
I have no idea whether it will tune or not,a lot of factors have to come together for that.It sounds like it should be an awesome arrow for buffalo.I have shot 15 GPP arrows and no issues out to the ranges you are talking about.
I will say I doubt if the balance point being within the footing will reduce the chance of breaking at the rear of the footing.That custom adapter should really do a lot for the strength of the front of that arrow.
I'm looking forward to hearing how it turns out.
I would be most concerned about the spine of the axis shaft breaking. With that much weight up front the only way you may be able to have a spine stiff enough is to double shaft the entire arrow.
hey clint
You know how Ed Ashby talks about Internal Footings?
he doesnt go into detail in any of the reports as far as I could find, but once on here or back on Ozbow he mentioned that his internal footing is a piece of tas oak dowell from the hardware (bunnings) which is 6-8" long. importantly, he gently tapers the back half so its a little thinner, using a sander. he then glues it in behing the insert, so that the front half of the dowel is glued in and the back half is "free"
he said this has the effect of gradually increasing the stiffness of the shaftm spreading the load and avoiding breakage.
cheers
also,
have you read Ashby on PNG's bowhunters?
worth a read. they use upto 2000gr points for total arrow weight 4000gr. they dont use feathers. Ashby reckons they arrows are slower than 100fps. and absolutely completely and totally silent and that the Axis deer dont even react at the shot. draw weight maybe 80lbs but using a split bamboo pole for a bow.
Your bow may be a tad more efficient..
Hex BB2 @ 70#?? NO WORRIES. But likely a bit of rainbow indeed.
jimB- can you elaborate as to why you don't think having the balance point forward of the end of the footing will help prevent breakage there.
just curious to know if i'm missing something in my train of thought.
on sunday i was shooting 680gr arrows out of this bow. 350gr upfront on an axis 400 that is 30 1/4" long. flew almost like a dart. i'm convinced that carbons are stiffer than most people think. hopefully 300's will work, fingers crossed
I build my arrows with 450 grains on the front for gator hunting. I use a 300 spine arrow, 30" long at my 29" draw length. My draw weight at my 29" draw length is 52#.
I just did an arrow for my daughter this past September for her Gator. It was a 29" beman 340 spine with 500 grains on the point end. This was shot out of her Zipper SXT at her 25" draw length and 35# at her draw length.
I think the secret will be to get the 2016 footing the right length to get the spine stiff enough to work for you.
Can't wait to see your results!
Benjy
Sounds like an interesting project, looking forward to your results!
I assume Buffalo hunting is a ground attack at 20+ yds. That being said it may be a tough shot. Early season I shoot out of a tree with a 1050gn 28in 2117, about a 300gn grizzly, 100gn brass insert,a 3in 1/8th in internal Brass rod screwed in the back of the insert. I use a rubber hose to slip over the rod to keep it from rattling. My bow is a 61lb\\27in R/D LB. Shooting from a elevated position I do not see much drop in it. On the ground during the rut I scale back to 750gn arrow.
The 1050gn drops like a dead goose after about 18yds, however in that first 15 nothing is stopping it. From a tree its no problem. But your going to be on the ground. For me shooting from the ground with the 750 @ 20yds is about the same as 18 ft up with the 1050gn. Your 70 lb bow you may not see such a change, but it will definitely be an adjustment from a lighter setup.
If you can hit your target go for it. I would not worry about speed/KE. I think we are far from running into diminishing returns at 1000gns and heavy bows. Natives have been using lighter bows with heavier arrows for thousands of years with no issues.
I used to use a similar setup to yours with beman MFXs, alum footted with oak dowels jbwelded inside. I switched to alum and brass for more flexibility in tuning. With the brass rods it is easier to trim to get the best flight. However your carbons can most likely deal with hard impacts during practice better than alum. I'd jbweld or epoxy your stuff in after you found your best setup or they will come loose. Keep in mind you will have way more KE than your average arrow.
OK, so i started tuning today.
arrow is axis 300. 300gr tuffhead on my 360gr adapter. 2016 footing 6 3/4" long. 730gr total upfront.
started at full length and started trimming. seems to show weak. (flecthed BH vs bareshaft)
but as usual when i try to tune i couldn't seem to make any improvement to BH arrow flight. fishtailing most of the time. i'm down to 31.5" arrow length now. note the footing reduces flexible portion of shaft to 24 3/4".
still seems to indicate weak.
i noticed the strike plate is copping alot of wear. is it possible i could be getting a false weak reading and that infact they could be too stiff and getting worse with trimming?
i'm thinking of trying a 340 axis and see what happens.
FYI- i tried shooting a 400 axis with 350gr upfront at 30 1/4" long and they fly quite well. better than the 300 setup anyway. this suggests to me that for whatever reason i just need weaker arrows than everyone seems to recommend regardless of what bow i'm trying to setup.
it seems i'm back to the frustration and randomness of tuning. i can make changes and see no difference, always. i just never know what to change. if i could makes changes to arrows and see the difference in flight i would be one happy archer. tuning always seems to feel like i'm bumbling around in the dark.
BTW, this arrow weighs just under 1100gr and is doing 150fps. come on baby just tune!!!
go get em Clint
I hate arrow tuning, for some of those same reasons.
CHuckC
I suspect you're going to need to have more weight distributed throughout the arrow shaft and not all on the front end.
Did you have one of those shafts tuned before, without the 360 grain insert and the footing?
looper- this is a new bow. i haven't had any arrow tuned to it yet.
Tuning has often provided some frustration and much fulfillment when accomplished.
Velcro is cheap and is my choice for my final set-up.
Based on an arrow tuned utilizing a Velcro side plate:
You may wish to consider replacing the side plate with a Martin Pad to possibly move your arrows up to ~4"s right and a leather pad to possibly move your arrows up to ~4"s left. These simple tests may reveal a more transparent view of what you have been experiencing.
Note: You had previously mentioned excessive side plate wear. If the wear on the side plate is behind the rest toward the string, then the shaft is too stiff. If the wear on the side plate is in front of the rest, then the shaft is too weak.
I would say they should be stiff with the footing you are really shooting a 25 inch shaft with a 7 inch head,
have you thought about a arrow dynamic with a internal foot? the taper might help
Ozy, I have some xx75 shafts made by Easton for Futura Archery
some years back. They are 24/40's that weigh 980 gr with a length
of 33 1/4". They came with the Black Forrest camo and used a uni-nock. I do not have any of these nocks or bushings for them.
Jerry
the strike plate only contacts the arrow directly above the deepest part of the grip. The spot where it touches is only 1/8" wide. Bad wear there. Jrchambers nailed it. Thats exactly what it is, 25" 300 shaft with a 7" long 730gr point. I'm even more convinced that 340 shafts are what i need.
Oz, I think youre starting to see what I have run into also. Ive ran a similar set up, ended up shaving the internal footing down to about 3 inches then taper... They were just too stiff with that long of a taper. I hope this helps!
keep up with the tuning! you'll learn alot about your setup and its worth it.
Good luck!
I think I'd work up a normal arrow first. Something in the 12 gpp range to start out. That should put you right around 800 grains. Some 8 gpi weight tubes would put you over 1000 grains.
I just measured up a GT 7595 (.300 spine)
A 28" with 4x4 fletch, 100 grain insert, 1" alum footing weighs 430 grains. Add the 300 grain head, 100 adapter brings it up to 830 grains. A 8 gpi weight tube would put you close to 1040 grains.
I just get the feeling that that 360 adapter is really going to screw with your tuning.
if it is the case that i need a weaker shaft its been a real eye opener to how stiff carbons really are and how much point loading they can tolerate.
Yeah, maybe so. Do you have any 5575s lying around?
I just reread an article you wrote in Traditional Bowhunter about your water buff hunting. Did you still have that arrow combination you wrote about? I think it was some 7595s and a conglomeration of inserts. I'm just wondering how that arrow would fly out of your current bow.
QuoteOriginally posted by ozy clint:
if it is the case that i need a weaker shaft its been a real eye opener to how stiff carbons really are and how much point loading they can tolerate.
Clint i have come to this realisation.
Ive got a Martin hunter, 60#, 3/16 past centre. should need dynamic spine 85# approx.
I made some 7595s trads, 30" long with 375gr up front. dynamic spine by the calculators: 48# approx
bareshaft and paper Result: stiff. no amount of weight seems to weaken the 7595 to tune them to this bow.
i switched to 29" 5575. 220 up front. dynamic spine 57#. they are pretty well spot on, a touch weak.
So stu miller's calculator is not accurate for carbon with EFOC or UEFOC
i don't have any of those arrows here. I'm moving away from the way they are constructed. Yes i've shot 2 buff with them but last year i had one break behind the insert on the ribs of a bull. Perfect placement on a broadside bull at 15 yards. Like doc ashby says, without 100% structural integrity nothing else matters. This is the path i'm on now. That setup is what looper is saying. Been there done that. Weaker arrows are my next destination.
hey looper, do you mean the trad archers world magazine for that buff article? Traditional bowhunter wasn't interested in it.
Yeah, maybe that was it. Great article. You might end up needing those Goldtip Heavyweights. I think they are substantially stronger than the regular GT Traditionals.
oz have you ever looked at griz sticks? I don't think you would have to put a footing in one of those. the only one ive ever seen break was chinnook907 saying watch this into a bunch of boulders hahah
Ozy, instead of having so much FOC could you use a heavy hunter gold tip shaft (320) and load up from there? Between the arrow and your 300 tuff head you would be at 750 grains without doing anything else. A brass insert and weight tubes and you are over 1000 grains quickly. Just thinking out loud but I would imagine its hell trying to get that arrow to tune.
i want to stick with the axis shafts i'm now using. 5/16 shafts look like logs now i've been using axis. I want to perservere with my new adapter because i believe this arrow will be the strongest arrow i can make. When i get it going, all will be revealed.
Clint,
As i said earlier, Ashby found that the key to stopping the shaft breaking was to create a design that gradually slowed the bending.
hence his internal footing design being a 7" dowel, tapered from the mid point back, and glued in only from the mid-point forward.
have you thought about this solution?
yes, i've heard of ashby doing that. With my setup the end of the outside footing is about 3/4" behind the balance point. Therefore the balance point, (centre of mass) has little to no leverage against the weak point. The centre of mass pushing on the weak point, which is in front of it in 'normal' arrows is the main cause of breakage there in my opinion.
I made up a couple of those internal footed shafts using an AD Hammerhead, a hardwood dowel, and tipped it with a 160 grain Stos head. I think they weighed around 750 grains total. They were very tough arrows. I shot them into concrete blocks for some testing. The heads ended up bending, but the shafts didn't break. That was out of a non-acs Adcock pulling around 64#@31". The only thing about the AD shafts is that they are pretty thick, way larger than even Goldtips.
Keep us posted Clint.
yes, i've heard of ashby doing that. With my setup the end of the outside footing is about 3/4" behind the balance point. Therefore the balance point, (centre of mass) has little to no leverage against the weak point. The centre of mass pushing on the weak point, which is in front of it in 'normal' arrows is the main cause of breakage there in my opinion.
Clint
Sounds interesting to me, hope it works well, post here and let us know
What's the latest?
back on 'daze' off from work now. i work 9 days on 5 days off. just got to tidy up a few jobs around the house then i'll be able to do some more tuning. it's blowing about 20-25 knots today so i wouldn't have been able to do any today anyway. hopefully in the coming days.
i have since bought some 340 and 400 spine axis to try. i think i'm getting false weak readings with the 300's.