I have shot with a tab or a glove for years, and I can't deny that I love the traditional aspect of it. I was snap shooting all of that time and created some very unsavory habits that wouldn't hardly ever allow me to come to full draw while looking at my target or my hand giving out implicitly as soon as I anchored (target panic). I spoke with Joel Turner of Ironmind Archery and he gave me some great advice on how to combat target panic. Retraining myself proved to be more of a problem than I expected and upon further thought I realized why exactly. I have had ms for a number of years and the most attacked portion of my central nervous system is the portion that controls my right hand. Creating a new neuropathway (repetitive shot sequence) is much more challenging and time consuming because of this. I don't think its impossible, but defiantly improbable. Some day it might work out, but until then I will shoot a mechanical release with a wrist strap. I shoot three fingers under, so when I use my release my anchor is right where my index finger would be. I have not noticed any spine issues with my arrows. I have noticed a huge increase in accuracy and consistency because I can slow down my shot and concentrate on every aspect of it prior to the release. I don't have to constantly focus on not releasing to early. I wish I would have started shooting this way a long time ago. I just know that I would no longer be able to shoot in tournaments in traditional class if I quit finger shooting all together. Its too bad that a mechanical release is not "trad" but an ILF take down with adjustable center shot, adjustable tiller and draw weight is.
the act of using a traditional bow requires not only a stick 'n' string bow, but one hand holds the bow and the fingers of the other hand address the string.
the string hand (fingers) draws, anchors, aims and releases. a millennium's old thumb ring is a release aid, but it's not mechanical and is a valid method of drawing/releasing a trad bow.
traditional archers who are physically handicapped always get a "bye" for using unconventional means of drawing/releasing the bowstring.
one who can pull string with fingers should be using fingers, or perhaps an "historic" release aid, but not a mech release aid.
if yer not physically handicapped, get a qualified archery coach and/or take the time to learn how best to shoot a trad bow with yer fingers on the bowstring. we've all been down that path in one manner or another, and a mech release aid is either a tool to cure a shooting problem (i.e. target panic) or just a crutch for not learning how to shoot a trad bow with a finger draw/release. :readit:
For hunting, who cares if it's "trad" to shoot with a release? It's still a stickbow and if you're shooting well that way, Go for it!
For tournaments, you could try using a leather strap or thumb ring. Or, just register in the "freestyle" class with your trad bow and mechanical release & beat the wheelie guys in their class!
QuoteOriginally posted by Fattony77:
For hunting, who cares if it's trad? If you're shooting well that way, Go for it!
For tournaments, you could try using a leather strap or thumb ring. Or, just register in the "freestyle" class & beat the wheelie guys in their class!
umm, please do keep in mind that this website forum is "trad gang" and not "wheel gang". the topic matter in question isn't about static release aids (thumb rings, straps, et), it's about dynamic mechanical release aids.
Aside from the competition side of things, do what works for you and keeps you enjoying shooting and helps you with the TP. I got it about 1 1/2 years ago and it is no fun. I started shooting a compound again to help with it. That was rough at first also but helped get me out past the 10 yd shots I was able to do after working on blind Bale and trying to work my way out in distance. I was also doing other stuff recommended to help with the TP, but I needed to convince my brain I could get on target and take the shot. For a while I would shoot the compound until I settled down and then switch. I then stopped as I got tired and felt it creeping in. A real light bow probably would also have helped but I know the release helped.
Don't give up using fingers. Shot some both ways in practice. I found switching from split to 3 under helped also so maybe try a switch from your usual way of putting your fingers on the string. Others have switched hands to relearn to shoot. I kind of suspect some changes can sort circuit the bad process.
Sorry for your health, if a release is your last resort to stay shooting and enjoying traditional equipment, by all means, yes, use a release.
Traditional archery is not easy to become proficient. It takes a lot of work, which becomes reward, IMHO is worth the effort in the end.
shoot the way you want to, as you should be in the sport for you. that being said, im gonna take a wild guess that as this moves along, youll someday drift back to fingers and find accuracy and enjoyment there. but it a release keeps ya shooting, go for it.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
QuoteOriginally posted by Fattony77:
For hunting, who cares if it's trad? If you're shooting well that way, Go for it!
For tournaments, you could try using a leather strap or thumb ring. Or, just register in the "freestyle" class & beat the wheelie guys in their class!
umm, please do keep in mind that this website forum is "trad gang" and not "wheel gang". the topic matter in question isn't about static release aids (thumb rings, straps, et), it's about dynamic mechanical release aids. [/b]
Sorry for any confusion with the way I originally posted. I have edited it to be more clear (hopefully). My apologies for any confusion or offense I may have caused or committed. :knothead:
tony, if you have a physical condition that requires the use of any kinda release aid to keep you in the sport and hunting, it's perfectly valid from my perspective, and most would agree. no problem, sir.
for those who have no physical issues with drawing and releasing with their bow hand fingers and decide to use a mech release aid, well, that's a different story ....
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
tony, if you have a physical condition that requires the use of any kinda release aid to keep you in the sport and hunting, it's perfectly valid from my perspective, and most would agree. no problem, sir.
for those who have no physical issues with drawing and releasing with their bow hand fingers and decide to use a mech release aid, well, that's a different story ....
Ditto for me as well.
God bless, Mudd
PS: Those that fit into the latter category, you may choose to use one, you're not welcome to share that information on this site... why? Because we are all about traditional bowhunting.
I think most around here wouldn't fault you for doing what you have to do if injured or senior, or sticking to the practice range with it. Same could be said for a pin sight. Once you're out in the woods and wanting to be traditional there's no place for a mechanical aid if you are healthy and have practiced enough to be proficient with fingers. There are no trad police around here but it is important that the forum stay on topic.
On a related note I just saw a recent video of Sir Patrick Stewart celebrating his 73rd birthday and a friend had gifted him a Bear Takedown. He was shooting with a release..but hey he's 73.
My physical health is not an issue when it comes to shooting with fingers. I have minor damage to an area of my brain that makes retraining muscle memory actions of my right more time consuming and difficult that it would be otherwise. I like shooting with complete control over target panic. I could shoot with fingers if I wanted and maybe I will while not hunting. Is the aspect of being a true trad hunter and shooting marginally more important than shooting your very best and doing everything you can to make ethical shots on game animals? By those guide lines, I guess I am no traditional archer; I just shoot a recurve.
I tried a release due to some arthritis in my hands but found it very noisy. I have solved the problem (not the same as the one you have) with a double thickness tab. If a release keeps you in the woods, and hunting, do what you gotta do.
there are established guidelines of sorts as to what defines a "traditional bow" and "traditional bowhunting". if you feel that a mechanical release aid helps you to shoot better, even though you could be using your fingers to draw and release, that's not what most would consider "traditional", and i sure don't. but hey, that's your call.
there IS an physical/mechanical advantage with using dynamic mechanical release aids. i competed with more than a few of them in the 60's and 70's with both recurves (unlimited recurve freestyle) and compounds (unlimited freestyle compound) - none of that has to do with traditional bowhunting.
there are LOTS of arguments worldwide about what constitutes "traditional bowhunting", define it any way ya like, your call. trad gang's view is simply a braced stick 'n' string, and an arrow - make any of that outta any material ya like as long as ya draw, hold, release with yer hands/fingers.
QuoteOriginally posted by BWallace10327:
My physical health is not an issue when it comes to shooting with fingers. I have minor damage to an area of my brain that makes retraining muscle memory actions of my right more time consuming and difficult that it would be otherwise. I like shooting with complete control over target panic. I could shoot with fingers if I wanted and maybe I will while not hunting. Is the aspect of being a true trad hunter and shooting marginally more important than shooting your very best and doing everything you can to make ethical shots on game animals? By those guide lines, I guess I am no traditional archer; I just shoot a recurve.
Brain damage to me would be lumped in there with physical health, call it neurological health if splitting hairs. This topic had been covered many times over. There doesn't need to be a debate. No one is going to revoke your 'trad card' for doing what suits you best in regards to your health, there is just no need to convince others they ought to shoot with a release just because. Do what you gotta do and enjoy yourself. No need to lose sleep, this is a place of fellowship and cameraderie.
I would say go for it under the circumstances. I work with a guy that shot trad for years. He bought a compound and release after injuring the muscles or tendons on his right forearm (not sure exactly what happened or the exact injury) which made it impossible to hold a bowstring. After a year or two he realized that he could use the release with his recurve and still be "traditional" with that one exception and has been shooting that way ever since. You say you could probably work your way into shooting fingers eventually and I encourage you to try it. I know if I were in your situation I would be too stubborn to give up finger shooting completely. But if that would prevent me from hunting for the time being and there was a less traditional method that would allow me to do something that I love, then I would definitely take advantage of it.
Good luck with whatever method you choose.
Matt Toms
QuoteOriginally posted by nineworlds9:
QuoteOriginally posted by BWallace10327:
My physical health is not an issue when it comes to shooting with fingers. I have minor damage to an area of my brain that makes retraining muscle memory actions of my right more time consuming and difficult that it would be otherwise. I like shooting with complete control over target panic. I could shoot with fingers if I wanted and maybe I will while not hunting. Is the aspect of being a true trad hunter and shooting marginally more important than shooting your very best and doing everything you can to make ethical shots on game animals? By those guide lines, I guess I am no traditional archer; I just shoot a recurve.
Brain damage to me would be lumped in there with physical health, call it neurological health if splitting hairs. This topic had been covered many times over. There doesn't need to be a debate. No one is going to revoke your 'trad card' for doing what suits you best in regards to your health, there is just no need to convince others they ought to shoot with a release just because. Do what you gotta do and enjoy yourself. No need to lose sleep, this is a place of fellowship and cameraderie. [/b]
X2
I do believe Claymore, the man said he had MS , not a Good Thing. I say, if the Body Wont Cooperate Anymore, Do What Ya Gotta Do To Keep Flingin' Those Arrows!! :goldtooth:
would switching to left handed bows help ?
I have ms but I am not disabled in by any means, and haven't been for a few years now. The small amount of damage I have in the portion of my brain that controls my string hand makes learning to overcome the target panic induced snap shooting that I have become accustomed to over the years shooting a trad bow more difficult than it would have been other wise. I can draw and shoot with a tab or glove, no problem, but not as accurately or consistently as I would like to for hunting applications. Its all for fun and learning how to shoot well when target practicing, but i like to hunt with my longbow/recurves. Its no longer a fun learning experience when an arrow gets released to early and wounds an animal instead of focusing at full draw and making a clean, ethical kill. Many people can shoot exceptionally with traditional archery equipment, I am not always one of them. I would rather give up a small portion of my tradition gear and keep the bow style I like best while being able to cleanly put down an animal with a well placed shot.
There appears to be little argument here (thank goodness) that you should do whatever works for you but that the topic of mechanical aids would be for another forum.
You have discovered through this thread a lot of folks that might be very helpful to you and be more than happy to discuss this type of draw strategy with you instead of posting here.
I'm certainly among those that think you should subscribe to whatever you want, irregardless of what others might choose.
I was gratified to read from moderator Rob a definition of "traditional" as it pertains to this forum. I had not seen that before in all these years. I like his definition; stick, string, and finger power. I'm soooo glad to know that I'm not considered less than traditional because I like hi-tech camo, hi-tech curves, medium draw weight bows, and adjustable arrow rests.
Good luck with your shooting. To beat or prevent TP by the way, the process of shooting must become more important to you than the result. Once you have "aimed" forget about it and concentrate on concluding the shot process. Once you've programmed your brain for the sight picture you seek, your subconscious can aim without your conscious help.
Have you tried thumb or pinch grips? I shoot that way because of terrible crushing damage done to my hand and the arthritis that comes with it. It might be an option for you.
Brent, what happens if you draw a bow with no arrow on the string? Can you hold the draw?
Yes, I sure can, and I can fling arrows at 3/4 draw if I look at the target with the best of them. Classic TP Syndrome. Breaking the habit of snap shooting is unnecessarily difficult due to the small area of demylenation that is in my brain. That means that conscious thoughts are relayed at a slower manner than if that area had a normal meylin sheath over the axon. Simply put, the message to hold my bow drawn or to keep pulling to my trigger (feather to nose)often times doesn't seem to get to my hand quickly enough. I can snap shoot all day if I want. I can make it to full draw with an arrow nocked, only to let loose using my sight picture as a trigger. I have no issues using a release to hunt with. I am making sure I make the best shot that I can on an animal by giving myself any legal advantage that I can while using a sight free recurve bow. Any health issues aside it is the ethical thing to do for me or anyone else. Not necessarily using a release but any legal advantage that lends itself being the best shot in a hunting situation
QuoteOriginally posted by BWallace10327:
Any health issues aside it is the ethical thing to do for me or anyone else. Not necessarily using a release but any legal advantage that lends itself being the best shot in a hunting situation
I don't think you're going to find anyone here who will quibble with you over your decision to hunt in any legal way you choose. However, when you prescribe for "anyone else," you include every other member in this forum, all of whom have decided to hunt with traditional gear, sometimes with primitive gear, and who purposely do not take all legal advantages that lend themselves to being the best shot in a hunting situation.
Otherwise, we would only hunt with compound bows with all the gadgets in bow season, and a flat shooting rifle with a scope in gun season. In a broader sense, using that criteria, there would be no bow season at all. Our ethics include limiting ourselves to self bows, homemade arrows, and stone broadheads if that's what we choose to use. And we applaud those who are successful with that equipment as much as we applaud those who use fiberglass backed bows and graphite arrows. We might be better shots in a hunting situation if we carried range finders, but we have no argument against the great majority of traditional bowhunters who don't. Instead we applaud the success of those who have learned to shoot accurately without. Our challenge and common interest is limiting ourselves to equipment that is certainly less than optimal, judged solely by the probability of being the best shot in a hunting situation.
I wish you success in your hunts.
Brent, another option for you to try,
switch hands. Simply start shooting lefty. I had TP for a LONG time. I even shot very well, sometimes. I was totally inconsistent because I never knew when my brain was gonna make me release that arrow. Maybe I have similar brain issues, who knows.
When aiming was not part of the equation I had no problem holding the full draw.
I tried everything. Short term gains, then right back. Almost quit numerous times. No way was I going to a Xbow or back to compound days.
Last fall I switched, cold turkey. Yeah, it was a little weird at first. There was a bit of learning again, but it was surprisingly easy. I followed and developed classic shooting form, and I shoot very well now, no TP at all.
I have heard many similar stories.
It may be a change for the good.
ChuckC
It is most probably working for you only because of the switch and the brain still has to think about it and you have to make it happen rather than absolute control over it. The trigger type releases are the quickest road to target panic in the release world. The fix is using back tension to execute the shot whether using release or fingers, in other words sort of a surprise where you don't have absolute control. I had my own battles years ago shooting compound competition, it took me a couple of seasons to overcome using a back tension trigger less release where the release comes from muscle engagement. In short, proper form. I shoot strictly longbow now and shoot fingers the same way.
Back in 1995, I suffered a High Voltage Electrical shock while working undernieth a train. 660volts right through the top of my melon, down my spine, and exiting out both my left & right arms which were resting on the iron truck frame. I was in intensive care for 3 days, and out of work for over 2 years. Bottom line is, I have a brain covered with numerous amounts a scar tissue & nerve damage and dexterity loss in both arms,hands, and fingers.
I have good strength in both arms and hands, however the control in my fingers, especialy my right hand is "inconsistant" to say the least!!!!! Many times while shooting, my fingers will "lock up" and a nice smooth release is practicaly impossible... This extremely compounds my on & off bouts of "target panic"!!! Most times when it happens, I end up throwing my release and end up with a "Holy Crap! Look where THAT one went!" shot, LMAO!!! Btw, I have NEVER even considered using a mechanical release.....
The one thing that I HAVE noticed over the years... Is that when I'm taking a perfectly natural, instintive shot. (like on game) I HAVE NO PROBLEMS AT ALL!!!! Whenever and whatever I'm shooting at, (deer,squirrels,stumps) I place all of my focus on the "spot" and just let my release happen "naturaly".....
I firmly believe, that at many times, we try "too" hard at practice... Instead of consentrating on "relax,focus,and shoot!" The more we "consentrate" on our shooting, the more we overload our brain & muscle memory, causing us to "overload" the system, and letting it break down, as opposed to just letting it happen "instinctively".
Just one old Woodchucker's thoughts.....
Brent.
Here's something for you to ponder...and some of the naysayers of what traditional archery really is.
Back in the 1880's there was a device called a clutch. It wasn't a string loop, thumb ring, but a full blown mechanical release
What constitutes traditional is an opinion!
If you'd like more information I can give you names, specific dates and patent numbers along with photo's!
i had an original edition of dr.robert elmer's treatise on "modern" target archery. the "clutch" mechanical release was written about by elmer and others, as it was used in early 20th century target archery.
again, there's no such thing as the "trad police", use whatever gear you wish and call it whatever you wish. no one will really care.
however, just as most of us wouldn't consider a cabled mechanical advantage bow a "trad bow", nor a mechanical broadhead a "trad broadhead", most would also not consider a mechanical release device as "trad". but as always, ymmv .....
Due to an old shoulder injury I've been using an old winn release. Because I'm not using my fingers to pull the string it's taken a lot of stress off my shoulder. I'll be able to keep shooting some until the shoulder settles down.
Rob. I think what the trad world needs is a history lesson before they start labeling and judging. When it comes to stereotypes on said things. Ie releases. Mechanical heads etc. even crossbows where built and used by some of the greats of trad archeys past. Though I don't personally care for them that's a topic for a different debate.
Where not talking cables and pulleys even though I would go as far as to consider say a dynabow traditional. There's many tools we use that people call modern that have been in use for close to 100 years. And then there tool like the dyna bow that falls in neither modern nor traditional realms.
Go to the shooters forum and look up MoeBow. He gives Great advise.
As it's been said using a realease aid only due to a medical issue is fine no one should judge that you are using a stick bow challenge in itself I know I've been going and shooting the dart system at my local archery shop in thecwoods everywhere to work on my finger shooting again because no I've never used a release but I didn't shoot for a few months work had me tied down but Its a learning process I don't know anyone who can just pick up a recurve and be a 100% accurate shooter time patience and practice practice practice is needed I hope you can work back to fingers one day sir god bless
QuoteOriginally posted by woodchucker:
I firmly believe, that at many times, we try "too" hard at practice... Instead of consentrating on "relax,focus,and shoot!" The more we "consentrate" on our shooting, the more we overload our brain & muscle memory, causing us to "overload" the system, and letting it break down, as opposed to just letting it happen "instinctively".
Just one old Woodchucker's thoughts.....
I am with you on that
QuoteOriginally posted by Mudd:
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
tony, if you have a physical condition that requires the use of any kinda release aid to keep you in the sport and hunting, it's perfectly valid from my perspective, and most would agree. no problem, sir.
for those who have no physical issues with drawing and releasing with their bow hand fingers and decide to use a mech release aid, well, that's a different story ....
Ditto for me as well.
God bless, Mudd
PS: Those that fit into the latter category, you may choose to use one, you're not welcome to share that information on this site... why? Because we are all about traditional bowhunting. [/b]
+3
it sure sems we have to many of the trad police . I can think back in the 1960's and there were several release being used, lots of bows also had some type of sights. I think Bear top of the line bow even had built in sight at that time. To me use whatever you can use to make you a better shot. So if a release is keeping you in the game, I am in support of your use. Most of the trad shoots are fun type shoots, so have fun. If they say you have to use specific equipment then go to another class that lets you use the release or sight and then like a lot do just do not turn in your shore card.
sweet old bill ...
not at all 'trad police' - it's just a common collective belief amongst the predominant body of world archers to consider mech devices and trad archery as oil and water for physically/mentally able archers. if you think differently, hey that's fine, no problemo, to each their own and life will go on despite such thinking.
I understand exactly what a release is and how it works. It demands the brain to think and make decisions. It demands the fingers to follow commands and activate the mechanism. As sequencing goes, the same demands exists for a fingers release. The physical mechanics are different of course, but both require mental discipline in order to achieve a good result. Snapping a release into place isn't the instant remedy some imagine. I don't use one, but....
I'd prefer a guy to use a release and be accurate on game, vs thinking he's got to use fingers-only on that traditional bow and his fingers results are much less accurate. There are very legit reasons to shoot a release with traditional equipment.
The mechanical release pre-dates carbon arrows, teflon coatings, fast-flight strings, the compound bow, and many other innovations.
kevin, the only problem with such thinking is that there are a few (thankfully) bowhunters who will do anything to make their 'traditional archery' task easier, rather than put in the time to do it they way the majority of archers do it, and do it well. the fast food society gotta-have-it-now syndrome.
where does going the mech route with archery tackle suddenly become 'trad archery'? is there a line drawn at wheel bows? or mech broadheads? or mech release aids? how 'bout that insane draw aid device that turned any stickbow into a crossbow?
there's enuf controversy already between selfbows and 3pc metal risered, springy button elevated rest, scope sighted, carbon foam limbed 'trad' recurve bows with carbon fiber arrows.
physical/mental handicaps always get a 'bye' - but for my thinking, the rest of the physically/mentally able archer bowhunters need to man up and become proficient at what's internationally considered 'traditional archery/bowhunting'. else, it just ain't 'trad bowhunting'. that's a slippery slope for sure. better off going the the whole hog whiz bang wheel archery route ...
Rob,
I think controversy only exists where it is created. A guy alone in the woods with his metal B Bear and his Hot Shot release from 1973 creates no controversy until someone sees him doing it and decides it ain't trad enough for him...and it's somehow wrong. It's different, but it's not 'wrong'. Being different is just that...and there are more than a few who are different. They just keep their mouths shut and keep hunting they way they desire. I know more than a few trad guys who get their noses wrinkled at the sight of a good carbon shaft and $25 broadhead. Not traditional in the slightest, but accepted by many. It's more about preference and perception than reality.
The mechanical release isn't accepted as traditional, but its roots go far back and beyond many later advents which we embrace today as okay for traditional bowhunters. Fingers are more trad than triggers, but triggers have been around since you and I went through high school. ;)
kevin, i agree. yer essentially sayin' what i'm sayin'. it's all good, one way or another.
Right on. . . . on the other hand, when you are a member of a red Mustang club, and you show up driving a blue Corvette, well.......
ChuckC
This post is aimed at the views expressed in this particular thread and not the fact that the this site limits certain discussion of equipment generally thought to be more modern. I agree with that position. This is Tradgang's site and I fully understand and agree with the rules established here.
I have shot traditional archery equipment my entire life ( more than 40 years)and I have never used any other type of bow. I can remember walking into archery shops 25 years ago and hearing the snickers from the guys with their compounds. I was different from them and it never one time bothered me for a single moment and at no time did I ever feel the need to justify my equipment to anyone. I hunt the way I hunt for me.
This entire thread is unsettling to say the least. As trad archers we are all "different" from the norm. If you use a bow that is bent with a single string, you are a traditional archer. To debate what is "traditional" is futile. Traditional is a mindset and is opinion based on the desires of every individual. To some it is wearing buckskin and shooting a self bow. To others it is goretex and a new Black Widow. To argue that most in the traditional community disagree with a particular type of equipment (in this case a release) could always be met with the argument that we all, and I mean ALL use equipment and other things that enhance our chances to bag game that were not used 30-40 years ago. Words like wool, razorheads, natural ground blind, leather and paper maps have been replaced with GPS, google earth, phenolic, carbon, gortex, trail cameras, and tree stands. Does this make us less of a traditional archer?
In this particular case,(mechanical release) they have been around long, long before most all of the materials that are used in modern traditional archery so to debate them while using any single material (carbon, gortex, etc.) gadgets (tree stands, gps, range finder, cell phones for weather, trailcams) or aids such as 4 wheelers and such, seems to be a double standard.
I have shot a release on and off for a few years for both medical (shoulders) and to battle TP that has haunted me for 30+ years. I have never thought it made my shooting easier. Actually it makes it more difficult but at times it makes shooting for me both physically possible and ethical from an accuracy point of view while hunting. I HATE shooting a release. I long for the simplicity of my tab but I have a responsibility to the animals I hunt. I don't say this as justification. I don't need an OK from anyone to hunt the way I want to hunt and neither should anyone else. When I go back and forth to fingers, I do it because I want to. I sat in my stand this morning and thought to myself that unless your bow is made of a single piece of wood, your string is animal part based, your arrows wood and your broadhead stone, you really have no place telling others what is acceptable regardless of what the opinion of the masses might be. As I thought more of it, however, I think that even if you hunt in a loin cloth and chunk a spear you still have to respect that this is a HIGHLY individualized sport. We have to do what makes us ethical hunters and we have to do what our heart tells us is right and makes us happy. We also need to let others do the same. Again, this is not aimed at what is allowed on the site but this particular thread of discussion.
I normally steer well clear from the rare controversial topics on this site and I certainly don't mean to be controversial with this post. It is nothing more than my opinion and I also respect that you all have opinions too. This one just got to me. This entire thread has been disturbing and disappointing. It reminds me of watching my best friends in a hurtful fight when neither one is right and no good can come from it.
Live and let live.
Why is this post still active? Let's move on...
QuoteOriginally posted by DesertDude:
Why is this post still active? Let's move on...
Agreed.