Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: First Up on October 26, 2013, 09:51:00 PM
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I am interested to what point do most "traditional" archers use traditional gear. For instance, is using a modern rangefinder while hunting considered incorrect from a traditional point of view? For myself, I practice nearly every day and participate in 3D shoots to hone my hunting skills. Estimating distance is a skill that is just as important as shooting with perfect form and release.I am satisfied with myself as far as estimating distance correctly, but, I feel that for ethical reasons that a good rangefinder may be a consideration. Shooting a longbow with wood arrows and a modern rangefinder seems a little odd, kind of "semi-traditional" to me. I would like to hear other archers opinions on the extent to which they use modern equipment while shooting "traditionally".
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Unless your Gapping/POA and know impact points for all yardages don't know if the range finder will do much more than your own built-in model will do :dunno:
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I think you should use whatever YOU believe is right for YOU. As long as it's legal and you believe it to be ethical, what someone thinks should not be of any significance to you.
Yes, there are the few of the "trad police" around but they have no real authority as far as I know. Go ahead and use that rangefinder...and enjoy the hunt.
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I don't care if you use a range finder or not. heck I don't care about most things like that. personally I hunt for me, hopefully most do the same for themselves!
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Originally posted by huntnmuleys:
I don't care if you use a range finder or not. heck I don't care about most things like that. personally I hunt for me, hopefully most do the same for themselves!
X2
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If it helps use it, who cares about being one way or the other. People draw different lines in the sand some say only wood arrows and self bows, some say carbon and laminated fiberglass bows. Draw your own line and be comfortable with it. Joe
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If it gives you the confidence to make a clean shot on game definitely use it. I see a lot of posts along these lines on archery websites asking if things are acceptable. We are all individuals and different things work for different people.
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"Traditional" is something passed down througn generations. If your grandfather used a rangefinder and showed you how to use it then it is in your tradition.
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Someone can always start a new tradition! Personally, shooting instinctive, I see no need for one, but if you like to know yardage or distance of the shot before you drop the string, then go right ahead. I shoot a long bow, from the ground mostly, but I still use a climber if I can't find a suitable ground location or have previously hung a stand. I appreciate wood arrows, but mostly shoot carbons. To each their own! And don't let anyone tell you differently. Each of us do what we do different ways, and for different reasons. That's part of what makes hunting so enjoyable for so many of us... Aside from game laws and regulations, there is no one that can tell us how we have to do anything. Have fun. Enjoy the great outdoors any way you please, and pass it on to the next generation.
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Originally posted by South MS Bowhunter:
Unless your Gapping/POA and know impact points for all yardages don't know if the range finder will do much more than your own built-in model will do :dunno:
X2
Hunt how you see fit and have a good time.
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I agree with every response above. In my opinion, as long as you draw the bow back with your own power and there isn't some mechanical device that reduces the draw weight then you're Traditional enough for me. Beyond that one restriction I don't care what you do or what equipment you use to enhance your personal experience.
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It s a good learning tool. Then after the learning curve completed you will understand there Is only 2 hunting distance: close enough and too far :D
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The concept of traditional sadly seems to have become a thing of the past in archery these days (excuse the pun). Most folks are not very understanding, accepting or forgiving of that mindset anymore, so best not to bring up such things. But, I appreciate your concern.
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I feel as long as you are shooting a traditional bow (no cams or sights), you are hunting the traditional way. Using a range finder or trail cam still doesn't make the shot itself any easier!
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To me traditional archery in its strictest sense means a non-compound bow. That is, a recurve or longbow. A lot of people figure sights, range finders and a lot of other equipment in the mix, but I don't. Remember, you see some vintage traditional bows that were manufactured with sights. However, I would advise anybody just now getting into trad to be aware that many traditional 3D shoots do have specific restrictions.
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I say to each his own. If someone wants to use a rangefinder, tree stands, Scent-Loc clothing, aluminum arrow, or not, that is fine by me. I don't think it makes another hunter less traditional. Each of us should make our own decisions about the equipment to be used and the hunting methods to be employed. We are all using stick & string and that's what binds us together.
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one of my self bows I use carbon arrows,,, but it all comes down to "Me vs Them" and so what I want to use I use,,, so whatever works for you should be fine by you and that's all that should count in this sport.
I think when you fall into the category of "Primitive" it may become a bit more strict because you naturally want it to be done the old way and that's nothing modern really but there's exceptions there too with people like me who still does what he wants when shooting primitive.
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Originally posted by Blackhawk:
I think you should use whatever YOU believe is right for YOU. As long as it's legal and you believe it to be ethical, what someone thinks should not be of any significance to you.
Yes, there are the few of the "trad police" around but they have no real authority as far as I know. Go ahead and use that rangefinder...and enjoy the hunt.
I agree completely.
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It seems like Traditional is anyone more primitive than you. that said use what makes you confident & stick with it. You will add & lose gear as your experience & tastes/needs change.
Originally posted by hybridbow hunter:
you will understand there Is only 2 hunting distance: close enough and too far :D
I got a chuckle off this but truer words have never been said.
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Tony Camera couldn't have titled his book any better with "Shooting the Stickbow"...naming it "Shooting the Traditional Bow" would have left WAY too much open to opinion. That's how it ought to be with hunting, it's a free country after all. Stick and string, and what ever floats your boat. Me personally, I don't care for sights or gadgets etc, but who am I to say you or someone else shouldn't be allowed to use them?
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Like Tommy said, I don't think it will help you, however if it does, use it !, I think it will end up, at beast, being a pacifier.
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If I need a rangefinder, it's too far.
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One of the main reasons I gave up on the modern bows is so I could give up thinking about yardage.
I look at what I want to hit and let'er rip.
I shoot a lot of arrows from.. wherever.... I guess there are spots I kind of know the yardage but it doesn't matter except for knowing how far I need to walk to pick up my arrow..lol
God bless,Mudd
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I shoot instinctively so no need for a rangefinder. One of the reasons I gave up the wheels was to get rid of all the gadgets.
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I think rangefinders are fine to use along side your trad bow... the greater the distance, the greater to room for error. You may not need one but if you like to know the animal is in your trajectory flight path, why not know instead of guess?
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Just say you hunt with a longbow. The term Traditional is defined in many ways!
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I think I'll stay out of this one. :saywhat:
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I rarely use the word "traditional" in archery because of these kinds of discussions.
I have developed allergies to: Plaid, longbows, wood arrows, fancy hats, non-target archer form, ground hunting, heavy bows, slow bows, and the list grows.
There is nothing old-fashioned in my bowhunting world except me.
I'm simply a recurve shooter.
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I agree with most. It is your hunting experience, as long as it is legal, ethical to you, and fun...DO IT!
For me, and this is only MY OPINION, I shoot animals at about ten yards and don't ask any questions. Done deal. Still eating the 2nd of last year's deer and haven't been out hunting yet this year. I will be hunting soon enough with my recurve made from all modern materials! To each his own...
The "what is traditional?" water is murky. Everyone is going to have a different opinion.
Shoot straight and enjoy,
-Charlie
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I personally hope for the day we stop worrying over what is or is not "traditional". There is virtually no agreed upon definition for it anyway. We can at least distinguish "traditional bows" from "traditional methods". Once tree stands were not "traditional". Sights were perfectly fine in the days before compounds.....as were thumb releases, stabilizers, etc. But most "traditional" shoots today don't allow those things. Go figure. Personally I just shoot what I want how I want and if somebody has a problem with that it isn't my problem--I let them stew over it.
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To me, the term "traditional bowhunter" is the antithesis of a bowhunter who uses a compound bow or a crossbow. It's the bow itself, that is what sets the whole of bowhunters into descriptive subsets.
As far as other technology, go ahead and use what you like to use. At least for now, this is still the land of the free. However, I think you may come to the conclusion that less is more and that your "hunt" with a recurve or longbow is better without all the gadgets, which can remove the human element from the hunt.
If others take issue with your rangefinder, ask if they use such things as GPS, Thinsulate, hand warmers, eye glasses, binoculars, takedown bows, carbon or aluminum arrows, flashlights, portable chairs, portable treestands, rubber boots, trail cams, etc.
Like it or not, we're all in the modern world. We are discussing this online, after all. But like at the end of Star Wars when Luke Skywalker turned off his targeting computer right before firing the shot that blew up the Death Star, I think many would benefit from turning off some of the gadgets that others see as must have. The most effective tool a hunter has is the one between his ears. More hunters would benefit on using that tool and relying less on other tools that they think they must have.
I'm not against gadgets. I owned my own sporting goods store for over a decade and worked at several other outdoor companies including an Orvis endorsed store and Cabela's. I'm merely suggesting that if one decides to use a "traditional bow", that they may want to try and stay in that general realm as much as possible. That is merely my opinion.
I've found that traditional bowhunters may have less "stuff" overall, but when they make a purchase, it's often of higher or much higher quality and price.
Now, I use a rangefinder for my rifle hunting. I use it all the time. But for my short range traditional bowhunting, I shoot deer from about 10 steps to 15 steps away. For me, anything past my preset trail setups is too far and my brain can calculate that faster and with less movement that using a rangefinder.
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I keep forgetting to take my range finder when I hunt from a treestand. But zapping some landmarks from the stand would give me a better idea of actual yardages for sure. Things look different once you're in the air.
I know I'm not wearing a loin cloth no matter how 'trad' it is.
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Originally posted by Mr.Magoo:
Things look different once you're in the air.
Things look different when you know the range too.
Couple years ago I went to a 3D shoot with some buddies who brought their training wheels & assorted gadgets. When I went 1st I didn't know the yardage, I just let the ole internal computer do the figuring & let her rip with mostly good effect. When my buddy went 1st he would range the target & announce it. I would then think "Wow 28yds, I didn't think it was that far" and for whatever reason that KNOWING the exact yardage got in my head & messed me up. Without exception when he went 1st I didn't do as well as when I shot without knowing the range.
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Originally posted by Mojostick:
As far as other technology, go ahead and use what you like to use. At least for now, this is still the land of the free.
Unfortunately, in our home state of Michigan, if some groups have their way, that won't be the case for much longer. They want to legislate what a quality buck is based only on the size of his antlers.
Today it's the size of the antlers. Tomorrow it will be the equipment we use. It's only a matter of time.
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The only distance that matters to me is, (to far), and I know it when I see it.
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Tooner,
The majority of Michigan deer hunters want rule changes. In the two last DNR surveys, 69% and 72% wanted the changes. From working at Cabela's, I can tell you most customers want it too.
Bag limits and rules always evolve. In Michigan, most deer hunters who've never left the state don't know what a more balanced herd looks like. Michigan leads the nation in yearling buck harvest due to our liberal buck tagging system. Most deer hunters in the state, myself included, are willing to try some new rules for a trial period and virtually every survey in recent years backs that up.
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only you can draw the line in the sand for how you hunt and what you use .
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Originally posted by Mojostick:
The majority of Michigan deer hunters want rule changes.
True enough. And the majority of deer hunters shoot compounds and crossbows. We'll see if you feel the same way about majority rule if and when they turn their sights on the traditional bowhunting community. "At least for now, this is the land of the free."
Using your terminology, basing a deer's worth solely on the size of his antlers is the "antithesis" of a traditional bowhunter.
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That's like asking "what is primitive".
I use a self bow, make my own wooden arrow shafts and stone points but used modern equipment to build those hunting items..
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If the bow has wheels you are not traditional-the rest; that is up to you.
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Tooner,
No, the DNR is trying to manage a deer herd of 1,500,000 deer by managing 650,000 deer hunters. They are trying to manage for a more balance age structure in the herd. Since we seem unable to do it with the old rules, the majority of hunters asked want to try something new. And APR's seemed the most popular because most Michigan deer hunters still want two buck tags and not just one a year. In addition, the majority don't even shoot any kind of bow, they shoot firearms.
Rules shouldn't be based mainly on the hunters needs and wants, like the old rules were, they should have a better balance about what's good for the majority of hunters and what's good for the deer herd/nature/forest too. The rules you and I grew up with were hunter focused after the initial purpose of growing herds in the post market hunting era, with the deer herd/forest getting little thought by the mid-1930's. We hunters, especially traditional bowhunters, should consider ourselves to be among the premier conservationists in the country, not merely consumers of the resource.
All of us deer hunters are deer managers and make management decisions all the time. Like it or not, we're all deer managers. Even traditional bowhunters are deer managers. And, we also make management decisions when we decide not to shoot something, like not shooting a doe or fawn and waiting for a spike buck instead.
(On a side note, I killed a doe on Saturday and she was being trailed by a spike. I killed the doe and essentially passed on the spike. Most often, many hunters would have shot the spike.)
Since the 1920's, Michigan deer hunters have killed too high of a ratio of yearling bucks. MDNR biologists knew it by the late 1930's but hunters loved killing bucks and overpopulated herds and wouldn't hear of changes until recently. We kill more yearling bucks than any other state and have for years. That is not a badge of honor, as far as the deer herd goes or the habitat damage a skewed herd can do.
The problem is, too many Michigan deer hunter focus solely on bucks and have for generations. The combo tag is good for two antlerless deer with a bow, yet most deer killed with it are yearling bucks. The biologists want to "trigger manage" the managers, that being us. By making a 3pt APR, studies show that hunters will increase antlerless harvest by 10-15% and that buck harvest numbers will be the same after about three years. On top of it, Michigan offers over a half million antlerless tags, (on top of the two in the combo tag) so it isn't as if opportunity to kill a deer is low. The problem is, still too many deer hunters value the quality of a deer as having antlers vs. having none. Too many still don't consider a doe to be a quality deer. So, since voluntary restrictions haven't worked, the state is trying rule changes, with super majority support and after years of surveys and public hearings.
We have rules on when you can bait, how much you can bait. We have rules about when you can hang a stand and where to put your name on it. We have rules about treesteps, shooting times, "doe" quota's, rifle calibers, how to tag a deer, etc.
Believe it or not, Michigan hunters have been living with an APR since the 1920's, that being the 3" APR. And we've had a 4pt APR with the 2nd combo tag since the 1990's.
I won't add any other posts on the subject in this thread, but I'm excited for new rules, virtually every other hunter I know is excited about new rules, all but one customer at Cabela's was excited for new rules, I'm excited for the possibilities my kids will have with new rules.
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I like shooting recurves without sights, split fingers with an elevated rest. Never even looked through a range finder, but I might. I got way too much junk I carry now.
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Originally posted by Mojostick:
Rules shouldn't be based mainly on the hunters needs and wants...
And that is exactly what is so dangerous about the precedent being set by these new rules. They are 100% social and have nothing to do with biology.
The pioneers of bowhunting knew that even after a lifetime spent afield, hundreds of trophies taken, all bucks were worthy prey.
(http://www.archerytalkblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/80yrsfredbear1.jpg)
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Traditional is different for everyone. Some guys shoot very technically advanced bows like the Das or trad tech and some guys shoot self bows. We all drive cars and use computers. Most of us can operate a smart phone. It's not about going back in time as much as it is about about enjoying the journey and taking the long way to our final destination.
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Scott E is correct and I'd add that some of us shoot all of em.
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I can train my brain on the ground fairly well for range but not so easy to get a lot of in the air experience in all kinds of settings so I do like to range stuff to get a feel for my surroundings. Kind of a calibration for me to set a perimeter for a shooting comfort zone. Often i find distances are not as far as i first think. Add in a narrower profile on the target and it is easy to think too far or shot over. I don't gap shot or estimate range for a shoot but I do have a feel for distance in the back of my mind and I do know what is a max range is most days. I used to step off trails and other stuff when setting stands so I didn't get set up to far off where I want to shot to.
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Originally posted by Ric O'Shay:
I think I'll stay out of this one. :saywhat:
+2