I know there area lot of variables, but generally speaking, do Hill style longbows have the same performance as r/d longbows, everything else being equal, I.e. dw, dl, arrow weight etc.
If not, how much difference would there be. For instance, in order to match the performance of a typical 45# r/d longbow, what weight Hill style would you need?
Or, maybe they are equal, just trying to get a comparison.
Thank
Toby
I have not run my R/D bow through a chronograph yet but having owned both styles of bow mentioned just from observation, I feel that the R/D is faster and hits harder. I think the design of the limbs allow it to store more energy than the hill style bow. That isn't much help but just what I have noticed.
For your 45 pound R/D to a Hill style it is important to know what R/D you have, compared to what Hill style you wish to match it with. I have a Hill style that is as fast or faster than alot of R/D bows. On the other side I have a Robertson Pierce Point Quest that is faster than a lot of Hill style bows that are 10 pounds stiffer.
Here's a link to help you figure it out: http://www.acsbows.com/bowperformance.html
I concur with Pavan. I have owned both from various makers but I can say that my JD berry straightlimbed (Hill style) bows keep up with every mild d/r bow I have shot or owned, I'm not sure about the aggressive hybrids as I've never owned one. But my 50lb Morningstar shoots a 460grain arrow at roughly 183 FPS. That's good performance from at straightlimbed longbow in my book.
It can be a lot or a little as others have intimated. People who shoot Hill bows generally don't have an interest in chronos.
If you have a bow that you love don't chrono it!! :banghead: :banghead:
All of my bows are either Hill-style or R/D longbows. My R/D bows outperform my Hill-style bows. I'm sure it depends on the bows, but I would guess that my Big River R/D bow, for example at 51# @ 28" would have similar speed to a Big River Hill-style 55-56#. And I own both bows.
I am not really interested in speed numbers, but have some interest in Hill style bows and want to make sure I enough performance for the game I hunt. I don't feel comfortable pulling much over 45#'s..
If you are hunting deer, a 45# Hill style with good arrow flight is more than sufficient. Lots of critters have fallen to lesser bows.
You'll be fine. Boatloads of deer, hogs, elk, moose, black bear, and just about every other critter worth eating have been taken with 45# Hill style bows. Use a heavy arrow (10-12 grains per pound) and a razor sharp cut on contact broadhead and have at it.
Toby, when you do a performance check, be sure you are comparing equal weight arrows. Also, consider accuracy as a part of the performance equation. For example, if you can shoot a r/d longbow as accurately at 20 yards as you can a Hill style at 10 yards ( or vice versa), will that make a "performance" difference to you? Regardless of speed?
Another aspect for me is how does the bow make me feel. I got a start in traditional 30 years ago because of a fascination with Hill style bows and back quivers. Between then and now I've just about completely run the gamut of traditional bow types and compounds (never have shot a crossbow). At this point in time I just really want to get back to that first love. I'll be after blacktails with a Hill bow this November. I'm not as good with them, so I'll have to get real close before I can take a shot. May very well go empty handed, but I'm okay with that. In that regard the Hill bow will be performing exactly as I need it to.
Pavan pretty much 'splained it.
A good Hill bow will run with most mild R/D bows, but a good mild R/D will be hard to catch.
Eric
Speed only kills if you hit your target.
The are many facets of a good performing bow for a given archer. Each of us has a specific quality of a bow that is appealing or we just like. Speed is part of that, performance is also putting the arrow where it needs to go. How accurate would the combo of a given bow and an archer be if he shot the same bow for say 50 years?
In general, a straight thick limbed Hill style bow is going to be slower than a more hybrid or recurve design. The curve or R/D has a cam built into the limb. Is that difference in speed so important to loose other shooting qualities. There is always a trade off.
"There is always a trade off" agree with this for sure. Ive been at it for 25 years. I am currently shooting one of Ken Rohloffs Whippenstick Longbows. This is the only exception to that rule Ive ever seen. BILL
I have heard nothing but great things about the whippenstick.
QuoteOriginally posted by Brianlocal3:
I concur with Pavan. I have owned both from various makers but I can say that my JD berry straightlimbed (Hill style) bows keep up with every mild d/r bow I have shot or owned, I'm not sure about the aggressive hybrids as I've never owned one. But my 50lb Morningstar shoots a 460grain arrow at roughly 183 FPS. That's good performance from at straightlimbed longbow in my book.
I have to strongly agree! but I cannot prove it with my setup because I do not have a chrono. I do have normal R/D bows here and the performance in my eyes is no difference but even seems faster than my baraga.
the JD Berry hill style seems to be more consistant than the other reflex/deflex bows I have where if I'm shooting sloppy it still hits my average but if I'm spot on with my form it still hits that average,,,once arrow tuned and set up the arrows simply go where you want unless your physically doing something wrong.
with my baraga if my form stinks that day my arrows are all over the place,, and if my form is perfect the bow will shoot perfect,, its not as consistant as the hill style berry.
so much can be related to speed though,,, someone told me arrows fletched with a Jo-Jan are slower than arrows fletched with a Bitz depending on the clamp set-up, strings, silencers, release-deep or shallow hook?, I'd seriously opt for the bow that just feels and shoots good.
I'm going off the trend here but if you are shooting a heavy hunting arrow I don't believe the R/D bows can come close. My son shoots Hill's and I have R/D bows of exactly the same weight as well as recurves and none of my bows can throw a heavy arrow as fast & hard as his bows. Now I will qualify this by saying if your shooting little bows and trying to get speed out of them I have no experience there. I'm strictly talking moderate weight hunting bows in the 70-80# area with arrows 750 to 1000 grains.
70-80#'s is a lot more weight than I can manage.
And, it's not that I am concerned with speed, performance would have been a better word.
I am not doubting anyone's experience, I just don't understand how a Hill bow can shoot a heavier arrow faster than an r/d bow and yet that same r/d bow can shoot a lighter arrow faster than a Hill.
I find all of this very interesting, and am just trying to learn more about all types of bows.
Draw length plays a HUGE factor in determining whether or not your bow produces acceptable energy for an ethical harvest of your quarry. 45# @ a true 30" draw length throws an arrow (of the same weight) SIGNIFICANTLY faster than a 45# @ 26" draw length.
It amazes me when so many archers say "XX pounds is enough" without ever considering draw length!
False Cast,
I would normally agree, draw length is a huge factor, but my original question only concerns the comparison of Hill style vs. r/d bows, at equal draw lengths.
Toby
To touch on original question no Hill bow I have ever shot has had the same cast as a comparable weight well made r/d bow. If you go with an aggressive r/d or hybrid forget about it. Upping poundage with a lower gpp arrow on a Hill will compensate. I dunno about the rest of us, but I don't shoot a Hill style because of the performance. I shoot one for the smooth draw and because they are Q U I E T.
Today, fast is in, but in my opinion it only allows you to miss at greater speed. - John Schulz
QuoteOriginally posted by False Cast:
Draw length plays a HUGE factor in determining whether or not your bow produces acceptable energy for an ethical harvest of your quarry. 45# @ a true 30" draw length throws an arrow (of the same weight) SIGNIFICANTLY faster than a 45# @ 26" draw length.
It amazes me when so many archers say "XX pounds is enough" without ever considering draw length!
You are right, a longer draw length is a decided advantage, but I can assure you that even 45@26 in a Hill style bow is more than sufficient for any deer. Heck, when I was a kid, I shot plenty of deer and hogs with a hickory self bow that was a lot slower than any Hill.
My main hunting bow is a 50@30.5 Hill. A buddy of mine shoots an r/d bow that is 54@27. If he shoots my arrow out of his bow, it is noticeably slower than it is out of my bow.
Looking for advice here. I draw 29.25" and comfortable shooting up to 46-47 #'s. I hunt deer, and elk a little. So, what style Hill would you recommend for me. I know there are a lot of different styles, just wondering which one would suit my needs the best.
Thanks
Toby
QuoteOriginally posted by two4hooking:
Today, fast is in, but in my opinion it only allows you to miss at greater speed. - John Schulz
Love it!
toby, if you are shooting a recurve with a straight arm and a deep grip, you may find that with a straight gripped Hill style bow that you will settle into a shorter draw with a bent arm and lose some of your draw length. I have found that lots of guys have a bit of left/right variances when they attempt to have a maximum strecthed out draw with a Hill style bow and then claim that they are better shots with their recurves. If power is an issue, the standard JD Berry, by many opinions is shooting a fairly qucik arrow. If you want to maintain a straighter arm the JD Berry Taipan would also be a worthy consideration. About Hill bows shooting a faster heavy arrow and an r/d shooting a faster lighter arrow. I have never ever seen that. My expeience over the past 50 years of bow hunting mostly with Hill style bows, a few really nice recurves and lately r/d bows, shows that while a Hill style bow with heavy limbs does not have as much variation with arrow weight changes, they never actually pass up a fast bow when the arrow weight goes up to reasonable weights. I am not about to fletch up a steel fence post to see if that changes, however. It is more likely that if you come across a Hill style bow and a recurve and an r/d bow that shoot a super heavy arrow about the same speed, you may very likely find that the other bows will shoot a lighter arrow faster than the Hill style bow. The catch 22 with longbows and wood arrows is that when weight goes way up the spine goes up with it, Hill style bows really like wood arrows and Hill style bows quite often prefer a softer spined arrow than a recurve. What is left to decide is simply what bow you like and what bow you can shoot the most accurately. I don't really think you have to worry about power. I know of a fellow with a 51 pound Schulz with a 26" draw that shot 5 elk and got either pass throughs or complete penetration on all 5 with standard cedar arrows. Any good standard longbow, as the ones mentioned above, with a 28" or over draw will have more power at 47 pounds than even a fast 51 pound Schulz at 26 inches.
QuoteOriginally posted by toby:
Looking for advice here. I draw 29.25" and comfortable shooting up to 46-47 #'s. I hunt deer, and elk a little. So, what style Hill would you recommend for me. I know there are a lot of different styles, just wondering which one would suit my needs the best.
Thanks
Toby
Take a look at a Dave Johnson American Semi-Longbow.
I own 6 Hill styles of various makers. All are very good bows. Dave's is the lightest and for its weight throws a better cast. Actually the best cast. It is backset. Four of the others are string follow. The other backset bow is a 72# Howard Hill Archery bow that is a beast. You really can't compare a 72# bow to a 47# bow but if shooting 10gpp then it is somewhat an equalizer.
Having said that, I love shooting ALL of them. I do own a 54# RD bow and sold a 40# RD bow and traded a 62# RD bow for a semi-longbow string follow Northern Mist Shelton. I do believe that the RD bow has an edge of performance pound for pound and length for length but the semi-longbow is my weakness at this time in my traditional journey.
If it's stick and string, it's the only thing. You can't go wrong either way.
For a "style" of straightlimbed bow I'd suggest backset as opposed to stringfollow. Now if we are talking "makes and models" I'd say take a good look at a JD Berry Vixen. I think you will be very pleased.
QuoteOriginally posted by Brianlocal3:
For a "style" of straightlimbed bow I'd suggest backset as opposed to stringfollow. Now if we are talking "makes and models" I'd say take a good look at a JD Berry Vixen. I think you will be very pleased.
Now that I own a Shelton a Vixen is my next target, I think. You never know what bow might pop up and present an opportunity.
The addiction will not stop. My Bears are jealous.
Thanks so much for taking the time to explain all of this to me. I can sense the attraction many of you have for your bows and greatly appreciate it. I am almost afraid I'll "catch the fever", just as afraid I won't:)
Toby
You will. You will. BWAHAHA!!!
Take the time to learn them and the reward is hard to describe but oh SO addictive!
Dont be afraid, come on in!!! There are warm cookies and hot coco waiting. HA HA
can i suggest you read this:
http://www.tuffhead.com/ashby_pdfs/ashby%20ours/2007%20Update,%20Part%204.pdf
In very, very short: a 54# straight laid longbow was used to test arrow penetration on an adult water buffalo. with standard type 540grain arrows, none penetrated the rib and averaged only 5". Move to 725gr arrows, single bevel heads, and consistent rib penetration was achieved, about 10". then go to 25% FOC at 725grs, average penetration 14".
the arrow construction you choose will have a huge effect on the leathality of the shot.
luckily, at sugh a low draw weight its really easy to built Extreme FOC arrows. here is a recipe for you:
GT ultralight 3555 or 5575 depending on length you need.
brass insert 100gr
steel BH adapter 125gr
tusker concorde 190gr or Grizzly 190gr broadhead
FOC : about 30%
weight : about 650gr.
I have never bought a bow, arrows, shafts, broadheads, etc for speed.
I usually buy because I liked the way they looked and felt in my hand...and then if they shot good I bought it.
I have straight limbed bow and also r/d (noble vs mohawk)....and i think the mohawk is a little faster but not much. Dont really care though...to be honest.
My Keep It Simple longbow that is extreme r/d...is nearly as fast as couple of my recurves...maybe 10fps slower. I only know as I was testing this bow style for Lee and he asked me to chrono it against my Jeffery Royal Hunter (1991), Habu Bushmaster (1997), Noble Longbow (1996) and Browning Wasp (1970).....the KISA r/d longbow Lee built was faster than all of them except my Habu. Then again it was pretty extreme r/d design in my opinion...
QuoteOriginally posted by toby:
70-80#'s is a lot more weight than I can manage.
And, it's not that I am concerned with speed, performance would have been a better word.
I am not doubting anyone's experience, I just don't understand how a Hill bow can shoot a heavier arrow faster than an r/d bow and yet that same r/d bow can shoot a lighter arrow faster than a Hill.
I find all of this very interesting, and am just trying to learn more about all types of bows.
on the subject of relative performance at different arrow weight, i was reading the ACS site. I shoot a Cari-bow slynx which is an extreme d/r longbow. Pete ward has tested both the caribow and the ACS bows.
The ACS shoots a 9gpp arrow faster, by about 5fps, but by 13gpp ACS has lost its advantage over the caribow and both shoot the same (within a fps) not to in any way knock the ACS, by all accounts some of the best bows ever made by humankind.
jd berry builds a very efficient d bow I will have to chronograph it.i have a hybrid of the same weight and its only a bit faster.
Not an expert or bowyer by any means but AFAIK a bows stored energy and efficiency determines arrow speed. A design with more more stored energy but lower efficiency tend to perform better with heavy arrows. RD hybrid bow tend to have curvy limbs that are lighter in mass. They store more energy and are more efficient than hill style bows. So they should perform better at the same draw weight with both light and heavy arrows.
I own a 68" Northern mist whisper and a 64" 3-piece pronghorn--both weigh exactly 53lbs @28. Both shoot 2016 aluminums. The r/d pronghorn is exactly 10fps faster. Quieter also.
Hope this helps
Thanks John, I find it interesting that the Pronghorn is quieter. That is an excellent comparison as far as speed goes.
Toby