I shoot three under and have been trying to get the noise down on my Shrew Classic Hunter..
I have tried brace height...nock height.... and arrow spine.. I have even gone from off the shelf with Velcro to a feather rest...
the specks are its tillered even...50# at 30 inch's....I've tried 500, 400, 340 and 300. point weight from 100 grains to 275...
Anyone out their that can help
I struggled with the enjoying the awesome accuracy and what it gouge was an advantage for a long time with three under. I switched a few weeks ago to split when a bowyer delivered a bow with a nock point installed low. I tried split finger again and can't believe how quite the bow is. Every arrow hits exactly where I'm looking too! I'm sorry I don't have any help with the noise I too struggled with the noise of bows when shooting 3 under, but never found a pluton until I switched to split.
Regards,
Adam
Shrews are not known as a noisy bow. That said 3 under will always make a tiny bit more noise regardless of tiller. Have you tried a different string material-perhaps fewer strands? Maybe ask Ron Leclair for some help?
I put an endless loop on mine and it helped quite a bit
I had a bow that I had to go about 1" over recommended brace height to get it quiet.
I've had great results with SBD strings with either cat whiskers or beaver balls.
But nothing compares to ditching the gloves and tabs and going from 3 under to 2 under and not just from a noise perspective. That dang ring finger is a real trouble maker.
Just my free opinion and worth every penny!
I'm shooting a SBD 8 strand now, maybe I should try a B50...I shot it a few time split and it makes a huge difference...sure do like the soft thump of split finder ... the only plus is I'm trying a feather rest from Trap...very nice...
I could do like RC says.. "just aim low and let'um drop into it"
I'd just like to know...once and for all...what causes the noise. I'm theorizing it's uneven string travel in relationship to the limbs...and originates in the string alone.
Kevin,
Me too. There's been a couple posts on this topic lately and it appears that alot of 3-under shooters (myself included) inadvertently load the bottom limb more (relative to the upper)with too much draw on the ring (3rd) finger. Then you've got mis-timed limbs firing. I've had some success tinkering with a deep hook on the index and middle fingers and backing the ring finger off to the pad. Some tape the first joint of the ring finger. It still isn't split quiet, but a side benefit for me has been noticeably better arrow flight. I've always had a slight tail left kick (I'm RH)of a bare shaft leaving the bow and it's gone now that I've taken that third finger out of play. Guess I was plucking or drawing the string outside the plane of optimum travel or something. But like you said, it would seem that a simple solution is merely to go from even tiller to positive on the lower limb. Several bowyers confirm that they will do this on request. I guess not everybody has a ring finger that misbehaves as bad as mine, yet everybody seems to concede 3-under's noisier. I've got to get an ILF and try it.
First off, tune your bow to the best of your ability using the method described here... acsbows.com/bareshaftplaning (http://acsbows.com/bareshaftplaning.html) . With a 50# bow I would probably start with the .400s and tune by playing with point weight, try and get your bare shafts and fletched to group together at 20 yards or so. Randomly going from .500s to .300s, and everything in between in an effort to lower noise while disregarding tune is not going to be very productive in my opinion.
Your bow will shoot best with some proper combination of spine, arrow length and point weight, and most likely be the quietest there too. For me the keys to a quiet bow have always been a proper tune, not too light an arrow, relatively high brace height, and the usual string silencers and for recurves some treatment where the string meets the limb.
Three under is always a little louder for me but if you are more accurate that way it seems like a good trade off.
Following up Richard's post, I believe the excessive noise attributed to 3 under is most likely caused by the limbs recovering at different times, causing excess vibration and noise.
The question is, why would this happen on a bow that was tillered for 3 under? I think the answer is also in Richard's post, and has to do with the relative pressure each finger exerts on the string. I have tried to bare shaft tune certain bows tillered for 3 under where I never could get rid of a nock high. Finally, I would just give up on it and set the nock point at 3/4". Lately, I've found that if I ease up on the pressure on my ring finger, those same bows will shoot nock level at a much lower nock point, like 1/2". Until I discovered this, I never would have believed I could tune a bow to shoot 3 under with a nock point of 1/2". The lowest I had before was 5/8", and I thought that was a fluke. If the relative pressure has that much impact on the tuning of a bow, I have to believe it would have an equal impact on the timing of limb recovery, and perhaps noise.
In other words, even though a bow is tillered for 3 under, it may tune very differently, or not tune very well at all, depending on the relative pressure of the fingers on the string. Some bows seem to be more sensitive than others in this regard.
I find it difficult to draw the bow with unequal pressure on my fingers. I have to consciously think about it and relax the pressure on my ring finger at full draw. I don't think this is a good thing to do, and I hope with time I can draw the bow with the correct pressure on each finger without thinking about it.
Kirk (Bigfoot Bows) put up a drawing on another three under thread showing what happens to the string upon release with three under compared to split. Like Kevin Dill suggested above it is likely the uneven string 'bend' or 'flap' upon release. Kirk's was the most credible explanation I have heard in this regard.
my 2 cents...a lot of bows arent really tillered for three under and off the shelf both...IMHO the best tiller for a 3 under is maybe 1/16" closer on the lower limb...and nock set at 1/16-3/16" above square...also cut to center or past?? adds to it all too.
I like a bigger patches of fur on the window because of paradox possibilities...for example an older Fred Bear style shelf (straight) does for sure make more noise...a curved one makes the contact point much more reduced.
I agree with the remark about the limbs closing too...another possibility to tghis calculus equation of noise?
in a perfect world(again IMHO)the throat of the handle should be exactly half the distance between limb tips for optium performance three under...and the arrow should be as close to your grip hand(in height) as possible...any deviations from those criteria will for sure interupt the equation as far as a bow being set up for three under...
also some folks "pluck" a bit with three under...the bottom finger should be the real focus on the hold and release w/ this style...no tension on the nock at all.I make my 3-u tabs so they are oversized a bit for that finger, I also increase thickness a bit too.
I tie floss around the area under the nock set just to help keep extra tension for the nock on the string and try to keep that top finger(especially at full draw) not pinching the nock...this could for sure cause noise too...the nock possibly hitting the ramp of the shelf .
as with all this stuff there are many opinions and cures...I discovered a lot of this by making some bows w/ different set ups...the shorter bows are always the harder ones to get perfcet...LB's are the easiest.but td/s are the easiest to tune tiller on after a bow is already made obviously...again...some bows arent made for three under , but split finger tabs or glove grtips.
Thanks Guys this has been a wealth of info for today, my last attempt for today was shooting two under with a cavalier tab... no difference
I am going to stop for now and I think I will start at the beginning like Easykeeper suggested and bare shaft all over again..this will take care of that variable.. and just work out from there,
this is almost like being lost the more confused you become the more you run in circles...
I will find the solution just no today
again thanks for all of you input..
j
I can't stand the racket of 3 under but do like the way I shoot at closer distances. Last Friday I downloaded a Disciple Meter app and was surprised at how little difference there actually was. For instance my Bear TD shot 84 while split and 89 3 under. Just the sound of the outdoors was around 77. I snapped my fingers and hit in the mid 90's.
Believe it or not, I find the noise to be louder on my longbows than my recurves. After much thought and experimentation, I concluded that the additional limb-string contact area was helping dampen the noise which has its origins in the string. My longbows...lacking the additional string contact and dampening...produce a noticeably louder and sharper slap. I am sure the sound is brought about by 1) uneven limb-string travel which causes a 'snap' to occur in the string.
Interestingly for me: Hollow shafting seems to amplify the sound, while solid (woodies) are quieter...though not silent.
I would consider getting a new string from Mr. Laclair as that is what he recommends for this bow.
Also, have you measured the tiller?
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
Kirk (Bigfoot Bows) put up a drawing on another three under thread showing what happens to the string upon release with three under compared to split. Like Kevin Dill suggested above it is likely the uneven string 'bend' or 'flap' upon release. Kirk's was the most credible explanation I have heard in this regard.
That post was the first thing I thought of when I saw this post. I think it explains some things.
I have also fund the ring finger to be a big player. Try 2under and see what happens.
I had a CH and tried to shoot it 3under. I tried a lot of stuff, but it was about the loudest bow I ever shot 3under. It was also carbon foam. It was not tillered for 3under. It was split quiet 2under, but split was still a different sound than I like because of the carbon and foam.
I have a couple MOABs. One is tillered even. It is quieter than the others shooting 3under, but still not near as quiet as shooting it split. I have not had other pair of bows tillerd both ways to see if the tillering always helps. I did notice a little improvement in an ILF bow with tiller changes, but couldn't tiller that to make 3under as quiet as split. I think due to what Kirk posted.
While attending the Rod Jenkins clinic, I switched to three under (it was a suggestion). I expressed that It really didn't matter to me but I didn't care for the extra noise from the bow. Rod responded with
" If you use proper back tension and a relaxed forearm to get a proper release, It will be just as quiet"
I have found this to be absolutely true. When my release is smooth, my bow is quiet. Infact, just a couple of days ago, I was shooting my recurve in the house as a friend (longbow shooter) watched. He was so impressed by the quietness that he ordered a recurve for himself.
A lot of guys order bows tillered for three under and I do so because they ask, but in reality, the tillering makes little to no differnce and an even tillered bow will shoot well for both split and three under (not so with self bows for different reasons).
BigJIm
"A lot of guys order bows tillered for three under and I do so because they ask, but in reality, the tillering makes little to no differnce and an even tillered bow will shoot well for both split and three under"
Back when OL Adcock was building bows, he said the same thing.
I shoot 3 under and notice no difference.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
Kirk (Bigfoot Bows) put up a drawing on another three under thread showing what happens to the string upon release with three under compared to split. Like Kevin Dill suggested above it is likely the uneven string 'bend' or 'flap' upon release. Kirk's was the most credible explanation I have heard in this regard.
I've seen some guys that use 3 fingers for the draw, then slip that bottom finger off the string and actually only use two on the release, They told me is was like taking the safety off.... it was much quieter. I've used the same theory on split finger with good results. That ring finger is just going along for the ride. Might as well get it out of the way....
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Splitvs3under.gif) (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/kirkll/media/Splitvs3under.gif.html)
That's a great illustration. Given that the noise is caused by uneven string angle/travel, the 2-finger release ought to be quieter.
And for only the sake of theory, a one-finger would be extremely quiet...as would a mechanical release.
After 20 yrs of shooting 3 under and tuning over 2 dozen bows here is what I have observed.....
The noise seems to be "sharper" rather than "louder",think 12 gage vs '06. With any of the hundreds of people I've shot with and around, no one has ever commented on my "loud" bow.
Tiller makes no difference. Tune every bow from the start, find the right nock point and brace height for your bow, arrow, and form/release. No two bows are exactly alike so what is perfect for one bow may be just close on another. Dont get lazy with "close enough".......
Some bows are just louder. I cant get 58" and shorter recurves as quiet as I like but have two different hill style bows that are whisper quiet.
Hope this helps but YMMV.............
QuoteOriginally posted by Kevin Dill:
That's a great illustration. Given that the noise is caused by uneven string angle/travel, the 2-finger release ought to be quieter.
And for only the sake of theory, a one-finger would be extremely quiet...as would a mechanical release.
A 2 finger release is quieter.... but... drawing heavy bows with only two fingers is really hard on the fingers. I've heard of some guys pulling tendons and laying themselves up shooting heavy bows too much like that.
If you want to play with it some time, draw using 3 fingers, and drop the ring finger at anchor. The first time i tried this was at a 3D shoot where it was below freezing weather. After 20 targets my fingers were going numb, and i was having a hell of a time getting off the string clean. I couldn't feel the string with my ring finger anyway, so i just got it out of the way. My shooting improved instantly.... I do the same thing now hunting in cold weather.
thats a great graphic...my only exception here would be on the extent of pressure & focus point of the string @ full draw...
the fistmele of the bow and the center focus of the throat are essential factors on using three under...your graphic did not show that all the way... it does give us all a cross section of whats going on. Bit it does put us all on the same page( as far as real pressure and pivots of three under)...sincere thanks for the effort to make it so!
my contention here is quite simple...if the center point of draw is even with the throat of the bow(beng also the center measure of the string from limb tip to limb tip)and the arrow being launched as close as possible to that plane... you will experience quieter and smoother shots...not to mention the help aid offered by using the metric of the arrow vs. eye line up of three under...
when people shoot bows three under with the same style and set up as a split rig...the results will never be what all desire...
in no way will I agree that any style is"quieter" ...three under is really meant for the traditional archer that is shooting with two eyes open, the bow canted so that the target is entirely visible with both eyes open(I like to cant the bow as vertical as possible and still maintain total view of target)
...and a deliberate and actually pretty fast release...
for fast target acquisition...and the ability to make quick and aimed shot...something of great value IMHO to the traditional archer/hunter...
I think Kirk's illustration gets at what I was referring to if the limbs were shown. The 3-under would logically cause the lower limb to be loaded more in relation to the upper. I would think this would mean the tips have more distance to travel on release to return to brace height, meaning the limbs would not return at precisely the exact moment causing noise, vibration, tuning difficulty, etc. Why not counteract this by a positive tiller on the bottom limb (if I said that right), i.e. greater distance from the string to the fades on the lower limb so the limbs again return to brace simultaneously?
So many variable can figure in:
Length of bow, draw length, poundage, arrow specs and dynamics, string material, nocking point, silencer placement...the list could be long. Just maybe, the wild card is the man himself...finger size, finger position, roll-off/release, and pressure. Actually too many variables to study them all. I'd just love to see an extreme slow-motion video showing all the details of the release and shot...including release hand action, string movement and limb dynamics.
Form and release always makes a difference for me on sound regardless of split or 3under. But, I find it way less forgiving and a much larger volume change 3 under when I don't get off the string clean.
I understand that some of the sound is tone not volume behind the bow, but I have also spent a fair amount of time shooting next to my barn wall and under its overhead door. I can easily detect the sound difference in what is being projected in direction other than at me. When I think I am shooting quiet 3 under, I often immediately notice it is not as quite as I thought when I get next to a surface that will reflect sound back to me. Most times I am also shooting close or blind bail so really working on best possible form and release. I switch a shot to split and only here the arrow and sound of the string cutting the air for the most part.
It is for sure possible to get some bows quiet 3 under. I managed to get a PCH with standard strings, puffs, and limb contact padding to shoot very quiet. It was tillered split also. I think it was quieter than most BW's I have shot split.
Getting the right string and silencer, brace height..... makes a big difference. But, it is a lot harder and longer process for me 3 under if I do get it worked out.
Quotethats a great graphic...my only exception here would be on the extent of pressure & focus point of the string @ full draw...
the fistmele of the bow and the center focus of the throat are essential factors on using three under...
That's what i really love about archery. There is so much philosophy it keeps it entertaining...
Could you please explain the dynamics that are taking place from the "extent of pressure" and "fistmele of the bow and the center focus of the throat". Being a bowyer i'm interested in these things...
QuoteOriginally posted by olddogrib:
I think Kirk's illustration gets at what I was referring to if the limbs were shown. The 3-under would logically cause the lower limb to be loaded more in relation to the upper. I would think this would mean the tips have more distance to travel on release to return to brace height, meaning the limbs would not return at precisely the exact moment causing noise, vibration, tuning difficulty, etc. Why not counteract this by a positive tiller on the bottom limb (if I said that right), i.e. greater distance from the string to the fades on the lower limb so the limbs again return to brace simultaneously?
With 3 under you are not putting more pressure on the lower limb.... you are moving the arrow shaft up higher towards the top of the limb and typically even tiller is preferred over a positive tiller.... the exception to this rule is the pressure point being applied to the bows grip.
Shooting with a lower pressure point, heeling down as you would on a Hill style bow or a straight grip long bow. That is where you find that it effects the limb pressure, and a positive tiller is more desirable to eliminate hand shock.
Kirk,
I can buy that explanation, but when your release hand, for whatever reason, moves the arrow above or below the plane in which it would normally travel if the limbs are perfectly timed (which I would assume is roughly 90 degress in relation to the face of the riser) does it not change the linear distance one limb tip has to travel to return to brace height in relation to the other limb? I would think this would impart up/down forces to the arrow nock(as opposed to straight ahead) if the limbs are "mistimed", for lack of a better word?
QuoteOriginally posted by olddogrib:
Kirk,
I can buy that explanation, but when your release hand, for whatever reason, moves the arrow above or below the plane in which it would normally travel if the limbs are perfectly timed (which I would assume is roughly 90 degress in relation to the face of the riser) does it not change the linear distance one limb tip has to travel to return to brace height in relation to the other limb? I would think this would impart up/down forces to the arrow nock(as opposed to straight ahead) if the limbs are "mistimed", for lack of a better word?
This is the same observation I make. The easy way to picture it is to imagine dropping the draw hand 6 or 8 inches down the string (below mid-point) and drawing the bow. Obviously, the lower limb would bend much more than the upper. Upon release, the limb recoveries would be different and probably contribute to noise.
I didn't think limb timing could be right shooting a positive tiller bow 3 under. If it was then why would you need to move your nock up? I assumed that was because of nock travel due to limb timing. I could be wrong.
How about putting some mini limb savers on the bow to help with the noise?
I started shooting 3 under, and the only thing I changed was adding a bottom nock so my finger would not pinch my arrow. I didn't notice any difference in noise level either.
Only difference was my shooting better. :bigsmyl:
XT312,
You're probably right, I'm just trying to understand the phenomenon from bowyers who design around these issues. Apparently some folks see no difference in noise between 3U and split, but I have to believe it's partialy explained by what happens in the shot sequence in relation to the drawing hand. I'm definitely not one and admittedly I probably pulled with most of the load on my index and ring fingers. I thought limb timing when pulling the arrow out of its normal plane of travel was comparable to the problems everyone had with cam timing on wheel bows back when they first went to fastflite replacing cables. Until they got the stretch under control, you were adjusting all the time. Maybe this isn't an accurate analogy...Kirk? Let's hear from the string walkers...if there's merit here they ought to get awful noise the further from center they draw?
You can put a lot of thought into limb timing....But most of it is built into the limbs... There are a lot more things involved than just upper and lower limb strength and tiller measurements. There is the mass weight of the limbs, the exact location of the working portion of the limb, which all needs to be balanced to the pre-load at brace to stop the string clean.
If you get too much mass weight in the outer limbs, and your working portion is shifted too close to your fades, rather than distributed evenly along the limb, it takes a very tight string at brace to stop those limbs dead.
Having the working portion of the limbs off from top to bottom limbs can cause serious vibration issues. (Two limbs bending in slightly different locations.)
often times with lighter weight bows, you can time everything right, and have good pre loads stopping the tips, but have limb bulge issues that cause vibration. The tips stop clean, but the limb bulges forward at mid limb. This will not effect the noise level, but it will effect the performance level.
The location and placement of your fingers on the string, the location of the string nock, and the exact pressure point on the grip being applied can all have effects on residual vibration felt in the riser after the shot..... but from one bow design to the next you'll get different results.
Each and every bow has a bit of personality difference. If you add in different draw weights and different arrow weights into the equation, you get even more differences.
The best thing we can do as archers is be patient and understanding with each bow we set up. Use different types of string, silencers, and arrow weight to adjust your noise level. Find the balance point, or pressure point in the grip where you get the least amount of vibration, and stay as closes as possible to the bowyers recommended brace height.... Typically the noisiest bows out there can be quieted down with heavier shafts, and the right string.... if the bow does't have enough pre load and you get string slap typically found in RC bows... use yarn on the string or a felt pad on the limb tip.....
I have founnd that if i put more presure on my index and middlle finger and less pressure on my ring finger plus a clean release I have no more noise than i do split plus no sore ring finger
This is the second season shooting my Kanati longbow and I always thought the bow was a little loud.I bought the bow from the classifieds here and shoot 3 under also.The bow came with a SBD string (I think)and beaver fur silencers.When it looked like my string had had it I ordered a new string from Kustom King Archery.I put the new string on with cat whisker silencers and shot it I couldn't believe how quiet it was.I don't know if it was the string or silencers or both,but wow what a difference.
I add a little padding on the shelf and move my silencers further towards the tips. about 7 inches. Also have been shooting Bikini skinny strings. I actually had a 50 pound at 30" Classic Hunter and shot 340 Axis full length with 200 grains upfront and tuned and shot very quiet!
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
You can put a lot of thought into limb timing....But most of it is built into the limbs... There are a lot more things involved than just upper and lower limb strength and tiller measurements. There is the mass weight of the limbs, the exact location of the working portion of the limb, which all needs to be balanced to the pre-load at brace to stop the string clean.
If you get too much mass weight in the outer limbs, and your working portion is shifted too close to your fades, rather than distributed evenly along the limb, it takes a very tight string at brace to stop those limbs dead.
Having the working portion of the limbs off from top to bottom limbs can cause serious vibration issues. (Two limbs bending in slightly different locations.)
often times with lighter weight bows, you can time everything right, and have good pre loads stopping the tips, but have limb bulge issues that cause vibration. The tips stop clean, but the limb bulges forward at mid limb. This will not effect the noise level, but it will effect the performance level.
The location and placement of your fingers on the string, the location of the string nock, and the exact pressure point on the grip being applied can all have effects on residual vibration felt in the riser after the shot..... but from one bow design to the next you'll get different results.
Each and every bow has a bit of personality difference. If you add in different draw weights and different arrow weights into the equation, you get even more differences.
The best thing we can do as archers is be patient and understanding with each bow we set up. Use different types of string, silencers, and arrow weight to adjust your noise level. Find the balance point, or pressure point in the grip where you get the least amount of vibration, and stay as closes as possible to the bowyers recommended brace height.... Typically the noisiest bows out there can be quieted down with heavier shafts, and the right string.... if the bow does't have enough pre load and you get string slap typically found in RC bows... use yarn on the string or a felt pad on the limb tip.....
I love posts like this that teach me something new that I didn't know before!