I've been using gasket lacquer for a number of years and it's been working well, until the last few months.
The last few months I've been having trouble with it cracking. Sometimes the cracks aren't too bad but most times they're horrendous. Occasionally the cracks go all the way through my crown paint. This is driving me nuts!
One vendor told me he sees this over water-based acrylic paints and recommended that I use oil-base paints for crown and cresting. Trouble is that I get cracking on bare shafts, too.
Another vendor said I need to give at least 30min between coats and use a new gasket to avoid making the coats too thick. Didn't work, still cracks.
Here's my procedure:
Sitka spruce shafts, sand smooth, crown with water-base acrylic paint, one coat of gl, smooth with synthetic steel wool (Scotchbrite pad), crest with water-base acrylic paint, two to three additional coats of gasket lacquer to finish. Plenty of drying time is given for the paint.
I've also experienced this with multiple cans of gl so if it's a batch issue it's pretty widespread.
I've spoken with other arrow makers and they also have cracking issues with gl to one degree or another. One fellow thought it was caused by humidity but I live in the California high desert so that idea is busted.
Does anyone have any good advice for me that does not include going to another coating? I've looked at other coatings and for one reason or another have rejected them. Gaket lacquer is a popular finish, surely it's not giving hairballs to *everyone* using it!
Guy
There are two problems with gasket lacquer one is the cracking and the other is it's not water proof.
If you try peeling one of the bad cracks the whole coating may come off.
Guy,
I have experienced the exact same thing. I narrowed my problem down to 3 things;
1) a batch of gasket lacquer that is too thick and needs to be thinned with turpentine.
2) too many coats, i.e., too thick of coatings.
3) too much moisture under the lacquer.
I make sure my shafts are very dry. I then paint my caps with water based paint, but let dry one to three days ( seems ridiculously long but my cracking finish has stopped).
4) 3 coats of almost runny honey gasket lacquer.
Also, I stopped sanding the shafts as I seem to get better results from a slightly rough finish.
Good luck to you.
:thumbsup:
Bob.
Bob: turpentine?
The instructions say to thin with acetone (preferred), or lacquer thinner.
Thank you for the other information.
Guy
Grey that's exactly what's wrong...Its not waterproof! I put Troy onto the company he was selling with and at one point the local fella who put me onto and I were talking to the chemists to try and come up with something that wouldn't. For us anyways the price was waaay to high when you factor in hazardous shipping and the stuff is way to volatile for me where I was feltching (2nd floor apt) That shaft is swelling and contracting with humidity and times of year, or just moisture in general, and wamo cracks. My sheep hunt I could peel them like a peanut in 02. 16 days in almost constant rain every single shaft cracked!
If you go back a number of years you'll find some of my posts on the very subject and got shunned for even mentioning it. Mind you I was the guy who told Troy where to buy the stuff and I'm sure he wasn't the only ear to get turned over the years!!!
Bob I'm curious how long your gaskets lasts if you're running a rough finish?!?!?! I know when mine got to a point they did extremely well and than it would break. I cant remember the numbers its been a number of years since I ran the crap!
There's another seller of the stuff who does not have issues that the stuff we had did. We never did figure out what they did or where they were getting it from. Hazardous shipping charges to Alaska were over 2 times the cost of a 5 gallon pail. Thankfully when I ordered it the first time fedex didn't get it here on time and I paid 0 shipping or haz shipping charges! 5 gallons for a small time builder as I was lasted me a long time.
Your best option...walk away!!! Thinning will not keep it from happening!!!!! It will only further the headaches and ruined shafts! It is nice, easy and fast....as a finish unless you can get with the chemist and afford the shipping, is not waterproof, it will crack and ruin shafts.
Guy - same issue here. It doesn't matter whether it is over the top of water based acrylic for crown, alcohol based dye for stain, bare or toasted shaft. And then there are times (with no respect to humidity level) where this doesn't happen. Cannot find a pattern to the application of finishes to help nail this action down.
I have been trying to get away from this product for six months, but oil based poly (no matter which manufacturer) dries too slowly to use in a garage shop where high summer temps, bugs, and slow dry times are the issues. Water based Poly is too soft of a finish for my liking.
I'll be following this thread in hope of solutions.
It has happened to me, I believe it is a worn out gasket applying too much lacquer. Thinning would make sense as well. I usually try to do one set, 13-20 shafts though one hole and then never use that hole again. Overuse a hole and see the globby mess you will get.
I used gasket lacquer for a long time with no problems.
Then for some reason I was having cracks, threw the gasket lacquer away and bought a new quart.
Still gave me trouble cracking.
I could not figure it out, so I started using other finishes.
Wish I new the answer.
Same here, loved it until the cracking started, hate the stuff now because my beautiful arrows now have a cracked finish. I use tru-oil now.
Eric, how's the compatibility of water based paints, alcohol and water based dyes, acrylic & oil based cresting paints, etc. with the Tru Oil? I'm sure you haven't used all of the above, but please tell us what you've found that works for you.
That's why I quit using it years ago. I use an epoxy finish a friend of mine adapted from the Jay Massey bow finish. We found arrows that had been out long enough for the point to rust off--finish was still great.
Been trying to figure this out myself. I have arrows that were built 5 to 10 years ago that are still fine. Arrows I built lately are a crap shoot but I might have something figured out in the last year. The arrows I dipped in the house (low humidity) have all cracked after a few shots. The ones where the weather was nice and I did all my work outside (higher humidity) have been holding up pretty good. Nothing scientific just my observations the last couple years. Either way I'm ready to look for a different finish! Dave
Has anyone tried either undercoating or overcoating the gasket lacquer with another product like water or oil-base polyurethane, shellac, varnish, etc.?
Guy
Guy - I usually do two coats of GL, steel wool and then a third, then I crest with oil based. Once that's dry I dip the crown/crest with water based poly, and let that cure for 24-48 (humidity dependent), and then do a final dip in Pro Fin. Unfortunately the cracking shows up underneath this.
I adopted this method of water based poly under oil based to prevent white crown/cresting work from turning yellow.
Go with Profin
I quit using gasket lacquer because of this. The system worked flawlessly on the first couple batches of arrows I did, then they started crackling. Personally, I think you really need to store it properly somewhere cool or it goes bad quick. Mine was in the garage over the summer in Texas and just because useless. It's way too expensive to keep buying more every few months, so I use wipe-on poly now. Much slower, but seems to be working out.
I also quit using paint to crown dip, use white stain now. It's lighter weight, doesn't crack, not hard to apply. You don't get bright white like you do with paint, but it's a good contrast to darker stain. If you use water based stain, water based paint for cresting, then oil-based wipe-on poly over the top, there are zero compatibility issues.
The real pi**er on this is that gasket lacquer used to work really well. I was just looking at some arrows I did a couple years ago and they look great, even after long and hard use.
From what I understand gasket lacquer is not made for the arrow industry. I wonder if there has been a formula change of some kind that hasn't affected its intended audience but has played havoc with us.
From what I've seen in this thread there are an awful lot of folks having this issue. I'd sure like to see the big trad archery vendor that sells this finish actually look into the cracking issue rather than just blow it off with useless suggestions.
Guy
I to have started having the same promblem
Guy - here is the best amateur analysis I can give. I generally use tapered shafts. Running tapered's through a gasket leaves less of a finish on the tapered portion of the shaft. We had a wet cold front blow through beginning yesterday evening. A full 24 hours after I put 3 dips (over a crown of brown alcohol based dye)on a dozen shafts during a low humidity, 85 degree day.
The shafts were laying in my cresting rack over night. This morning, over half of the shafts had hazed on the tapered crown portion where the thinner finish is. My analysis is that water gets under the gasket lacquer by penetrating the finish, not necessarily by moisture entering the wood as the parallel portion of the shafts had not hazed. Like you, arrows I dipped in GL several years ago do not show these issues. Therefore I conclude that the chemical makeup of the GL has been changed.
I'm done with GL. I guess I am going to start experimenting with a combination of water based poly and a wipe on oil based poly final coat. Or some combination of those finishes. I am trying to get more info on compatibility of our various paints and dyes with Tru Oil as well.
I have profin'd over the GL but I have never had GL crack. BUT, I have used profin for the past several years, so maybe my GL is of the "old" stock days.
Now I have some spankin' new GL that we will have to keep an eye on I guess.
I sure do like the Profin tho. I also want to use Chads epoxy finish sometime.(I have a lot of epoxy to use up).
grey its made for the pencil industry!
There was at one time two different distrib going to stickbow shops. I'm assuming many of those still selling it are using the same brand we were.
Green
holy crap man thats a lot of different sealers. lol!!!!!!
let me ask, if you sealed the shaft with GL, than capped/crested, than overcoated with wb...first whats the NEED for profin to begin with and 2nd if you insisted on using it, whats the need for it over the cap/crest area if you're sealing it with paint and than sealing it again with water based....?!?!?!
I've also used the finish Lbr mentioned and loved it, it is SLOW to dry atleast up here but it is by far and away the best finish you'll ever try. I hate fletch tape though so I've moved away from the finish.
profin is also a slow cure finish. A way around either of them is a drying box. Think fly rods, you'll see what I'm talking about very quickly. Its not much different than a verticle bow hot box. Something you can control the heat and humidity.
I've found that being I'm not building to sell...i dont really mind if theres a hair in the finish. My arrows even with as little as I shoot anymore dont last long enough to worry about it. if I find something I cant live with, I'll take a razor and cut it off. A dab of profin or waterbased anything with a similar 'sheen' will make the booger invisible. I do filter my profin and poor it back into the can when I'm done MOST of the time lol.
Seal the shaft up to the cap mark with profin however many coats you want. Dip your cap, let cure, crest...than if you want an over coat (or need one to get a consistent sheen on your arrows, use some waterbased), and your done.
Dan - I was using the water based to seal the crest to keep the metallic's from running. The minwax polycrilic finish was too soft on its' own, and would get some "shelf wear" after about 75 shots or so. The hard finish of profin isn't effected by a little friction. It would target burn on the point end though, which is why I went to GL in the first place.
My problem down here is two fold....heat/bugs. When I was building youth arrows, I would leave my garage closed up all night, with a bug light on, then dip around 2-3am when it was coolest and I'd killed the bugs. A hair or a bit of dust? No problem. 30 skeeters, etc. on a shaft? Problem. Lol.
I was doing enough at the time that profin was being dipped in several times daily, with new product added appropriately. Now that I only do my own arrows and occasionally some for friends, my PF is congealing not only in dip tubes, but in the cans as temps get well over 100 during the summer for long periods of time. Lots of waste so I went to buying quarts instead of gallons.
I'm going to play with the water based Heavy Duty High Gloss stuff and see what I can achieve.
What is the epoxy finish?
Green, go to the epoxy!
Take a baby food jar. I think its one ounce of epoxy (devcon two ton in the two small metalic containers, not the twin big pliastic kind you push out at the same time). fill the rest with acetone.
You can buy it in larger quantities but the smaller 1 ounce package makes mixing easy!
Mix it good.
Take some tshirts, thin rags or what have you...they dont need to be big at all, cut into patch sized pieces (black powder sized patches). Dunk in and wipe one half wipe the other half hang leave it alone! You may be able to depending on your fingers and patch get all the way around the shaft, or you may not. I was told to do it in halves. Dont go over the shaft again until its dry. The aceton evaporates fast and the shaft will be tacky for awhile until the epoxy cooks off.
Its going to take a number of coats before you really see it, but it is one helluva finish!
Also ZERO target burn!!! NOTHING NODDA ZILCH!
profin is terrible for target burning! But I do like the stuff. The finish over bare wood whether cedar or doug fir is really nice without stain. It will yellow over light colored caps/crests.
Have you thought about a fridge for the summers Green? I hear ya on the crest from running.
You can overcoat with the epoxy but you'll want a waterbased coat (or two) over it to keep the epoxy from burning the gold/silver bands also. Gloss is your harder finishes. I only go over my crests because my cap finish is dull compared to the profin and have no real issues with cresting burning on the bow. With epoxy you'll have none.
I typically let it dry for 12 hours per coat. Your temps and humidity is going to vary the drying time. A heat box with some lights really shines with this finish. I used a buddy heater to help heat the room up.
use duco for the nocks...tape for the feathers.
Tom Kiessling's process for making wooden arrows using the epoxy/acetone finish.
1) First thing I do is stain shafts. I usually use aniline dyes from
Gray Ghost Archery, but any stain will usually work. I only stain
to where the stain and crown will meet.
2) After stain dries, using 0000 steelwool to remove any raised grain,
then stain again if necessary to achieve desired color.
3) If I don't have any epoxy formula made up, I use the following
procedure for that.
*I purchase Devcon 2-ton epoxy and a can of acetone from Wal-Mart
in the paint section. I use a 4 ounce jar (baby food or mason
jelly jar) to squirt the entire contents of epoxy in to. I then
completely mix the 2 epoxy parts until clear. I then add 1 ounce
of acetone (1/2 jar) and stir until the epoxy appears to have
dissolved and looks only like acetone remains. I then fill the
jar with acetone and stir again for a few seconds.*
4) Applied one coat of epoxy as described next.
*Always wear chemical resistant gloves, I use the blue Nitrate cloves
that the tools trucks (Snap-On, Mac) sell to local automotive and
diesel garage mechanics. I use small cotton rags from t-shirts.
Hold arrow at nock or point end, make one long continuous swipe
from end to end. Then rotate shaft 180 degrees and do again. (Do
not attempt to double wipe on same side, the rag will stick to
the first coat).
5) After epoxy dries, check for raised grain. Remove if needed.
6) Apply a second coat of epoxy.
7) I will mark the shafts for my crown. I use 2 inch masking tape
at the crown line. I then spray the crowns on, (I usually use Krylon
enamels, and usually 2 coats will be enough). **If you are going to
use fluorescent colors, always spray a basecoat of white first.**
8) After crown dries, apply cresting lines (Testors model paints work great).
9) After crown and cresting are COMPLETELY dry, spray or brush the
crown and crestings with a thin coat of Min Wax Water Based
Polyacyrlic (blue can). I prefer to brush mine on while shaft is in my
crester. (I use an Arrow Specialties crester).
10) After poly dries, apply second coat.
11) After letting poly dry an hour, apply first coat of epoxy over
entire shaft. Make sure to check wiping rag for paint residue
after first arrow to insure that acetone is not attacking cresting
and crown. If paint is being attacked, crest the arrow if
needed, and give another coat of poly over all arrows. Some
paint will show up from the nock end where there wasn't any epoxy.
12) If all is ok, I will usually put on 5 to 7 coats of epoxy,
make sure to smooth out finish very lightly with 0000 steel wool
between all coats.
13) I then set nocks using Duco cement, and mount feathers with either
Bohning Fletch Tape or regular super glues (not the gel stuff).
I prefer the tape. This makes for easy feather repair if needed.
Make sure to remove any excess epoxy from the nock taper first,
the cement will stick better. I do this with the small blade of my
pocket knife.
straight from the man! I need to save Toms Recipe Chad! Easier to post it than try and explain it LOL!
Hey emailed you btw on here....
Thanks guys. I have given the epoxy a couple of tries in the recent past. Once mixed, it's shelf life is only about 3 days.....turning yellow as it ages and cures in the jar. I also had very long drying times in our heat.....several days as a matter of fact. In a perfect world, I'm looking for a finish I can use as a dip rather than a wipe on.
sounds like a humidity issue? it shouldn't take days.
Never had a problem with it curing in 3 days. Be sure you get the "2 Ton", not "5 Minute".
First coat dries almost instantly, second coat pretty quick, but after that I normally let them sit overnight before applying the next coat.
The shelf life isn't indefinate--fairly short compared to most--but it's more than a few days. I've only used the Devcon 2-Ton. A different epoxy might be totally different. I think one batch will do about 3 dozen arrows. Even if you only do one dozen and throw the remainder away, it's cheap.
Durability is unmatched by anything else I've seen or used.
Humidity is stupid high here, and in TN where Tom lives. My guess is the wrong epoxy or bad epoxy.
Gasket lacquer should be thinned with acetone periodically, because it evaporates over time. When the GL gets too thick, it cracks in use. Thin with acetone and you won't have the problem. Better too thin and multiple coats than too thick. I have some that is over 10 years old and still working fine.
There is no such thing as waterproof where wood is concerned. Gasket lacquer is good.
Don, do you have any data for how thin the finish should be?
For instance, what the viscosity should look like or the mil thickness on a coated shaft?
I know detailed data like that is a lot to ask for but I thought I'd try.
Chad, thank you very much for posting the epoxy recipe and procedure here. Even if I don't end up using it it's good info to have up for other folks to see.
Thanks, Guy
Chad yes, I used the two ton. Not sure why it was tacky for over 72 hours, but it was, and during the time collected lots of gnats, etc.
Don - you and I spoke quite awhile back re the gasket lacquer. I add "some" Acetone to my GL quite frequently, but maybe not nearly enough. I will add some more Acetone to the tube and test. I've got nothing to lose at this point really.
I tried adding acetone to my GL--didn't work. We found an arrow in Tom's yard that had been lost in snow...I think 2 years or more prior. Nock and feathers rotted off, point rusted off, shaft looked as good as the day he finished it.
That's a mystery to me Green--never had anything like that happen to me. Never heard Tom speak of it, and although he doesn't make arrows commercially he's done hundreds of dozens. Maybe a bad batch of epoxy?
Could have been Chad.
I ended up removing about 1.5" of GL from my dip tube and replacing it with Acetone. Spent about 15 minutes working it into the GL with a shaft/gasket. I'll know in a few days if this has resolved my issue or not. Temps are cooler here and I may just need to follow Tom's suggestion a little more religiously.
Anyone else testing the Acetone thinning please let us know your results.
I'm a little leery of adding too much acetone to the gasket lacquer.
Not too long ago I added about 1/2" to 3/4" of acetone to the dip tube and mixed it in real well.
The next set of arrows I dipped had the crown and cresting melted and wiped off in the gasket. I said words I didn't even know I knew.
Guy
I completely agree with Don Stokes.
Used GL for over 20 years on a production basis. Only cracked finish I had were from arrows left out in the weather for a period of time-it is not waterproof.
Thin with acetone to a water consistency. Pour you GL out of the tube into a can-then add the acetone to thin to desired consistency.
With "water like consistency which is what I used I would put on 6-7 coats with steel wooling between every 2-3.
If you are not using the GL to make any more arrows for several weeks or longer pour the excess out of your tube and store in a can. In the plastic dip tube the solvent will evaporate through the plastic making the GL thicker.
Rougher finish just wears out the gasket faster. I preferred the red ones-are they still available today?
GL is a thicker viscosity version of nitrocelleous lacquer. Sometimes I used ordinary nitrocelleous lacquer as a thinner.
Remember like all other wood finish applications multiple thin coats are much better than 1-2 thick ones.
I used alcohol based stains underneath=for crowns used colored acohol based stains. White shoe polish makes a great white stain for crown.
Remember anything water soluable is also de-natured alcohol soluable like rit dye.
Don and Kelly....thanks for the help. Once thinned, things seemed to be returning to normal.
Guy - I don't use GL over top of the cresting so I'm not having the same issues as you. I use poly over the cresting. Water based first, then oil based for a final.
I have been using EM9300 water based clear polycarbonate. It's exterior rated, as waterproof as any oil finish and alot tougher. I'd say it rivals a good epoxy finish. I thin it a bit with water and dip the same as the regular polyurethanes waterborne. This isn't miniwax though, it is far tougher.
http://www.targetcoatings.com/products/exterior-top-coats/em9300-exterior-clear-polycarbonate-urethane.html
Thanks FF, this sounds like a very good product, and it's discounted a bit too.
I've thinned my gasket lacquer per Don and Kelly's directions. I didn't go water-thin since I ran out of acetone but it's thinner than I've ever used it.
So far I've dipped one set of plain arrows with no stain or paint and there are no cracks yet. The last dip was yesterday so I'm holding my breath until few more days have passed. I have another set of crowned and crested arrows that will be dipped soon so we'll see how those go, too.
Guy
Wow. I just use clear lacquer from Home Depot. I put it on with a paper towel from the kitchen.
Alcohol based stain under if desired.