OK, I know that a bad hit on a deer is a bad day for any responsible hunter, so we have to take that out of the intended point.
I use to tell my friends or should I say I would criticize them for making statements like, I had a clean miss or I just got hair or I tattooed the deer on my missed shot.
OK here is my beliefs, just remember how much I am disappointed In myself if I wound an animal. It has happened but not very many time and I understand we all understand it happens. I say and believe if you have a clean miss rather than a wounded deer in either case it is the same. A clean miss is a shot that was just that bad or a deer that was that cranked up from the start and jumped the string. I just bring this point up because for some who think its better to have a clean miss and it is, but it should bring up all kinds of red flags and questions like. What went wrong what was I doing and how can I fix this.
I'm just saying, we should not dismiss a lean miss at game, we should study and ask questions and think hard about what went wrong.
Bruce
I doubt there is many that are happy or at least un-effected by a miss. I would guess it rides anyone to being better at their craft.
Predators are always learning from their mistakes but they never get to where they are always successful. Whether we make a hard shot or miss and easy shot, there is always a reason for it. Too many variables to consider to know for sure. We do what we can.
"The Moment Of Truth" will let us know we are only human all the time... The only way to be ready for a hunting shot, is to hunt... All the time in the world shooting 3D and targets is not hunting.
Practice all you can and try to stay calm when you shoot at something alive... After all, it's like going back in time a thousand years! It's gonna make you shake a bit... Gotta Love It!
... mike ...
Bruce,
Interesting point. For may trad archers who shoot more instinctively, the miss may be caused by many different factors but that is another issue for discussion later. A miss from this type of shooter is, in many ways, similar to an arrant throw by an MLB third baseman. How can that happen? This professional athlete has made that throw tens of thousands of times in his life and hundreds, if not more, of times each season. That said, misses happen, especially when eye hand coordinations issues come into play.
For archers who shoot the gap method, misses can occur by misjudging yardage and simply shooting the wrong gap estimation.
A very good trad archer friend of mine, who has attended Rick Welch's archery lessons, said to me that the left to right arrows we shoot are the arrows we need to be most concerned with. Those are form breakdowns. The high and low arrows are simply a misjudging of distance, which if you shoot archery long enough and happens to us all.
Dennis
Good thread. I've always felt there is no difference. A wound is a miss - missed kill. Neither should ever be taken lightly, but I've seen those who laugh at misses - even repeated ones or several in a row. When it happens, it is only blind luck it is not a wound.
I would rather have a clean miss,and have had a bunch of those. I wouldn't really feel very good about a bad shot even if I did recover the animal.
interesting reflections...
I missed a bull elk in washinton this september. It was a 25 yd shot. I shot over his back by a half inch. I am not happy about the miss but i would have been sick if i would have wounded him. My problem was my distance judgement. I am used to hunting deer in river bottoms and shooting at the elk on an open hill side threw me for a curve. For me a clean miss and a bad shot are not even close to the same thing. I shoot 3D all year and i agree with the above statements, All the time in the world 3D shooting is not hunting
QuoteOriginally posted by Alexander Traditional:
I would rather have a clean miss,and have had a bunch of those. I wouldn't really feel very good about a bad shot even if I did recover the animal.
Alexander brings up an interesting point. A clean miss equals a wounded animal equals an arrant shot which strikes an animal in a location you were not intending. How do ethical traditional archers evaluate their shots, even on game harvested with poor shots? Are those shots, because the animal is eventually recovered, viewed in a more favorable light than those, let's say, on a clean miss?
Very interesting. Good stuff guys. I agree with all of the above statements. I guess that my disappointment is very similar in both situations. But I am more thankful when I miss so that the animal will not suffer because of my error. But agree that both should be evaluated and corrected.
I think Caleb hit the nail on the head.
Clean miss = Oh, crap I didn't pick a spot. It is irritating and will bug me for days. Sometimes it is just because the deer had better reflexes than I imagined and was able to drop below the arrow. I actually have to admire a critter that can do that.
A wounded animal leaves a sick feeling that never goes away completely. Bad hits are my fault, and I know it. Either my form needs work or I didn't pay close enough attention to the area around me and a limb hit something causing the arrow to stray from my intended path.
Anyway, try as I might to think they are the same, I can't.
I also agree with Caleb. I feel very bad when I've hit and don't recover an animal. Therefore I'm a very conservative shot.
While I haven't had this happen in more than 40 years, I did hit a couple of deer in the early 70's very high. I had no concept (I was 17-19)of deer dropping to gather themselves and exit in those days. Maybe, that was why I made those bad shots? I blamed the possibility that I had failed to "pick a spot".
In the past 30 years or so I can honestly say that a dropping deer hasn't been the reason for any misses or poor hits. Maybe because I very rarely am shooting at an alert deer and I hunt only lightly pressured private land. Of course maybe I've just been lucky...if I believed in luck which I don't.
I'd rather not have taken the shot than wound or miss. I realize too that the miss could have been a wound.
A loosed arrow, whether good or bad is gone forever. How I address the outcome is personal and is no way being expounded on with an ulterior motive to sway others.
Preparation and scouting, by far, receives the biggest bone. Much pleasure, camaraderie and peace is enjoyed. And sometimes, a successful harvest.
When a shot opportunity is starting to unfold, a different gear is called upon and the intensity and focus sharply escalates. My focus on shot execution stands forefront. I make no differentiation from a shot in the field to a practice shot at home or a shot on a 3D course. Intense focus on the shot execution has paid big dividends in reducing error and holding shot degrading excitement at bay.
Misses and bad hits are not simply deemed acceptable. The fact that errors occur are acknowledged, however each occurrence warrants thorough personal investigation, reflection and corrective action. Note: the same holds true for a proper execution and favorable harvest. Being too hard on myself in the past has, at times, proven counter-productive. Working through the issue and/ or possibly improving mental preparation has been most productive. Challenges have remained forever forthcoming.
Is this radical or possibly a self-prescribed method that has led to success? Preparation and hunting takes up 99.99% of the time. Hopefully, I can be properly focused 0.1% of the time and celebrate later.
The animals we pursue must command our unwavering preeminent respect.
We are hunting when we make mistakes and that is a gift. I will never feel good about a missed shot or a wounded animal that stands to reason. I hope it will come to some that a clean miss is just lucky that being my point, whether that miss is because of form a rushed shot planning or lack of, the list could go on for a long time. We are the best of the best as far as I am concerned and it's because of this, learning and sharing.
A new traditional hunter is looking for all the information they can read listen to and then finally put the information to work in the field. We have a responsibility to share with new Traditional Hunters to learn from every mistake and success that they can. Remember the question was not, is it better to have a clean miss or a wounded animal.
Lots of thoughts here. . . I typically don't feel so good when a guy says, "I was just an inch over his back," or "I was just an inch in front of his brisket." In fairness- those shots are a foot off! Been there done that! I just do not think a 1" miss is REALLY off by one inch! Sobering for sure. . .
I can't speak for anyone else, but with being an athlete my entire live a wrestler for 16 years and a competitive swimmer for 13 I have become a very technique driven person. I'm not perfect but always working to be that way or at least as close as I can. As an athlete and as a coach I watched and analyzed everything. One thing I've noticed is that you do not always realize what you're doing wrong until it happens in the heat of the moment when it counts the most. Now again these are things I will analyze for days and work to resolve what went wrong.
My first night in the stand I had a coyote come by and took a shot. Everything felt good, the release and everything felt great but I missed. When I got done and wslked to my arrow I measured a distance farther than I thought it was.
for the sake of the coyote I'm glad I missed but until I discovered my judgment of distance was wrong it ate me up as to what I did wrong.
QuoteOriginally posted by KSdan:
Lots of thoughts here. . . I typically don't feel so good when a guy says, "I was just an inch over his back," or "I was just an inch in front of his brisket." In fairness- those shots are a foot off! Been there done that! I just do not think a 1" miss is REALLY off by one inch! Sobering for sure. . .
Very profound
A hunter that doesnt evaluate his hunt cannot get better.
Friend brings up some great points and a reflection of my points, if we look at shooting game with a respect that is completely unwavering and has a 100% of our attention and focus, we probably would make very few shot mistakes. Knowing our limits, our effective range, and our tracking ability probably is the main ingredient here. And if we should bring with us from the field a lesson learned from a great hunt or a bad experience we succeed. Now understand I am not judging anyone I am talking to myself as much as trying to share an interesting view I was looking at from outside myself recently.
What is a successful hunt? To me I know I put everything I could into preparing for the game I am pursuing and can take that knowledge into the field and am able to execute and succeed in the shot.
If I miss an animal I know I did something wrong I was not properly prepared for what came about. I try to limit myself to set points I put on myself. For instance, keeping my shots within my effective range and hunting on days with high recovery expectations, not in the rain. And the list can go on for each person it is different. When we cheat and go outside these limits we are setting ourselves up for a bad shot or the same thing missed shot.
But the fear of failure is one of the strongest obstacles humans face. As strong as this emotion is, fear of success in a strange way also holds us back. In any athletic endeavor, from football to archery, fundamentals are the foundation that allows the task to be completed under great emotional pressure. If your form is solid the fears either pro or con will not prevent a good shot. This traditional archery is very complex, but you will only perform when the chips are down if you have mastered the fundamentals.
But the fear of failure is one of the strongest obstacles humans face. As strong as this emotion is, fear of success in a strange way also holds us back. In any athletic endeavor, from football to archery, fundamentals are the foundation that allows the task to be completed under great emotional pressure. If your form is solid the fears either pro or con will not prevent a good shot. This traditional archery is very complex, but you will only perform when the chips are down if you have mastered the fundamentals.
I had a bad run, mostly not controlling my emotions and thought process during the shot. Lots of long bloodtrails as well as some clean misses. The turning point was missing a doe 3 times at easy yardage. Kind of an eye opener for a guy that has been at this for 30 years. Any way I attached a SR sight, took a nice buck the first day. Got the monkey off my back , removed the SR ,determined to never take a shot that I was not sure of and if I didn't have the "look", I let down. 14 in a row piled up in sight but then last year after a perfect execution, I lost a doe. It can happen as we are only a part of the equation.
I had a clean miss on a big 8 point a couple of years ago that still haunts me. I was in a ground blind during an early heavy wet snow storm and dusk was approaching quickly. Several does came through and were followed by this buck I'd seen before. He stopped 12 yards from me but facing me and fed unconcerned for 15 minutes while I was quickly loosing light. It was rally dingy when he turned broadside and I drew and let the arrow go. Much to my horror he just stood there and then took off not too quickly.
It was dark enough I couldn't see the arrow flight at all. I wasn't nervous as I watched him for 15 minutes up close. The shot felt perfect. The arrow was found with no blood, hair...a clean miss. My only explanation was the arrow clipped an unseen twig in the natural pine bough blind.
A clean miss is better than a wounded and unrecovered animal.
Onehair, I had a similar scenario last year, that is a big part for the idea of this thread. I was having trouble with my shoulder; I was convinced my rotator cuff was shot. I miss a buck at 12 yards again at 15 yards I believe he turned around and pointed his middle hoof at me when I missed again at 20 yards. I could not believe I missed three times in twenty yards, all three shots over his back right in line with his vitals. I was ready to give up that night because of the problems I was having. The next day I put an arrow right in the boiler.
I went home and stopped shooting, I had to come up with a plan. I decided to, not shoot for at least three month, it was hard but I did it. My brother came into town and I got the bow out to shoot with my best friend of 45 years. My shoulder felt great and still does, I have limited my shooting now to a 20 to 30 minute practice a day instead of an hour or better. I'm shooting better now than I have ever shot. Practice smarter not harder. I did shoot a doe at twenty yards last year before the buck incident but I did not hit her where I wanted to, I was lucky to find her.
Clean miss is the same as wounded animal in my book. Obviously circumstances will change and we all miss or make poor shots. However, for every time this has happened I have lost sleep - tossed, turned and tracked for hours to try and resolve my guilt.
It's inexcusable to miss or wound a deer. Extenuating circumstances exist, challenges present themselves - and that is what hunting is about! However, if your're not harvesting animals 4 out of 5 shots then you shouldn't be hunting with that weapon.
I have missed because of unseen obstructions like a green brier . I am glad at that point that the arrow never hit the deer and I feel in a case like that the miss is better . I do see what you are getting at though .
For me personally I prefer to miss than wound but both occasions have me analyzing my shot sequence to try to see what I forgot, most of the time it's not picking a spot that leads to the chance to learn.
QuoteOriginally posted by longbow fanatic 1:
Bruce,
Interesting point. For may trad archers who shoot more instinctively, the miss may be caused by many different factors but that is another issue for discussion later. A miss from this type of shooter is, in many ways, similar to an arrant throw by an MLB third baseman. How can that happen? This professional athlete has made that throw tens of thousands of times in his life and hundreds, if not more, of times each season. That said, misses happen, especially when eye hand coordinations issues come into play.
For archers who shoot the gap method, misses can occur by misjudging yardage and simply shooting the wrong gap estimation.
A very good trad archer friend of mine, who has attended Rick Welch's archery lessons, said to me that the left to right arrows we shoot are the arrows we need to be most concerned with. Those are form breakdowns. The high and low arrows are simply a misjudging of distance, which if you shoot archery long enough and happens to us all.
Dennis
The left/right high/low observation is an excellent point.
Great point KSDan. I suppose the only time a 1" "miss" is truly that is if a person was shooting at the eye of a turkey.
Over the years a common comment I've heard from mostly new archers is that they didn't "kill one" but they hit one. It's as if the "hit" (wound) is a consolation prize and evidence that they are almost competent. Now, the fellows that I've heard say this aren't bad folks or even unethical. They just have some maturing to do.
I have a theory about folks who don't feel bad enough when they wound an animal, no matter what kind of equipment (bows and guns) they used. Folks that shrug off a wound don't spend enough time following up.
When I've made a poor shot I know that I've just committed myself, and probably my son to many hours of very difficult and most likely disappointing follow-up. This costs time, energy, emotion, and really spreads human scent and commotion throughout the hunting area.
I can think of nothing in hunting that I despise or regret more than a shot gone wrong. Personally, I've found the only thing that speeds up putting this behind me is a shot gone right.
A pet peeve of mine is the comment that some will make about very large deer. I've heard folks comment that they would shoot further than they feel competent if the deer was super big. That's exactly the animal I would take no chances with.
I'm a wildlife biologist so before someone thinks I put too much weight on the impacts on the animal, that's not where I'm coming from. Its the impact on my hunter psyche that I regard the highest. I love wildlife but I also know they are put here for my wise use and enjoyment.
Wow interesting bowild, all though I agree will much of what you say here. I can't say I distinguish one animals importance from another. I feel if a shot is good for one specimen it is good for all the same regardless of the trophy size. Each person has there belief of what a large trophy is and it should never matter what size it is to determine if you shoot or not. Either you have a good shot or you don't.
My arrows always go to the spot I pick. Sometimes there is something in the spot closer than my actual target, sometimes I pick the wrong spot, but it is never the arrow or bows fault. They're spot on. ;)
Vermonster13, you have a way of explaining the whole truth and nothing but.
Like your bow and arrows my bow does not complain about the direction it is shot in. Although my arrows do sometimes especially if there is a rock at the other end.
I've had the fortune, or misfortune of only missing 2 of some 20+ collective deer. Unfortunately a percentage larger than I prefer have been wounded and unrecovered. I do get some crap occasionally from folks who have accrued less wounded, but more blatently missed deer. So who would be considered a "better" or "worse" hunter... EVERY clean miss has an exact equal opportunity to be a wounded animal. I take a clean miss as serious as a wounding shot, because to me, they might as well be the same.
Great subject!
B
Bow Bum, I don't think you are alone many feel the same way about missed game. This sport is very hard and there are so many different situations that we are exsposed to in the field while hunting. There is no way a person can have a perfect record of success by bringing home the game we pursue every time. We are human and we make mistakes. You and I get that like so many here. I relate with you on your belief. Thanks for joining in on the conversation.
Bruce
very interseting topic...I would have to say for myself that most oppurtunitys bowhunting that have eneded up in misses or bad hits were 100% my own fault...
so that means if I practice with my gear...and also learn to excersize discipline when taking a shot...or better yet letting the ctritter pass for another day is , and has been the most important thing I have learned in several decades of doing this...
it only took a few sleepless nights hoping I would find that game the next day to make me take this all a lot more seriously...
a lot of folks are enamored with the romance of traditional archery, but never truly understand that the gear we use does make it not only more difficult, but require a greater amount of discipline and awareness of what we are doing...not too mention the skill required to get closer to game that maybe 40 yards...how about 20...
actually I like 15 a whole lot!!
I would rather much more hear about a trad guys harvest of a doe than a nice buck(after a few losses)...
we all have to live with our own decisions and regulation on what we do...
Wandering monk, I'm with you on the 20 yard and even 15 yard limits. I never took a shot more than 30 yards even when I shot trainingwheels, I think these hero's shooting 40,50 and even out to 80 yards on the hunting shows are stupid. Not only for taking those shots but for televising such hunts and making every guy watching the show think they can do the same thing, if they only use the gadgets on the hunt that the hero is using. Now that is a very strong opinion I know, another day another topic.
:thumbsup:
no need to apologize for common sense and wisdom...the shooters that are going way out there are reckless and have never watched a critter winter through one of their botched attempts...
a deer shot with perfect accuracy in one second or less( the time even a fast arrow takes to connect) can move enough to make that perfect double lung turn into a miserable gut or non lethal leg shot..
maybe they dont care as much as we do about the creatures, and are looking for some kind of gratifafacation from a kill...
I do...and unless I am using a 30/06 or similar I will continue my discipline of the close ins...