Hi guys
I'm just curious if you are one someone's waiting list for a custom bow and let's and you put money down. And the list is long. At the time you got put on the list you were in a situation to buy you dream bow. Well 5-6 months pass and life throws a few curves and money becomes tight. Is it possible to ask for you deposit back being that the bow has not been started or even specs been given.
Don't know of any bowyers that ask for a non-refundable deposit. As long as no money/time has been spent on "Your bow" I think you are entitled to the full refund of your deposit.
Eric
Been in that situation more than once. Both occasions I had found a used bow before my build came up.
Each bowyer is different. One refunded my deposit and the other required a percentage of the deposit. However, I was able to sell my spot in the Classified for the amount of the deposit. As a warning! It is not thought highly of to sell your spot for a profit. Just what you have into it.
Spots come up for sale fairly often and offer a good way for you to get your money back and continue to give business to the bowyer. Just discuss with the bowyer what you are doing an make sure they concur.
Good luck with those curve balls.
FYI
I would definitely speak with the bowyer personally, and ask them what their thoughts and preferences are on the process. that might get you enough respect to help you out.
good luck to you.
Sometimes are ordered and paid for with the deposit, e en when the waiting period is long. This gives the bowyer time to make sure the wood is dried Properly. This is one reason they
Ah want to keep some or all of the deposit.
Sometimes are ordered and paid for with the deposit, e en when the waiting period is long. This gives the bowyer time to make sure the wood is dried Properly. This is one reason they
Ah want to keep some or all of the deposit.
Sometimes are ordered and paid for with the deposit, e en when the waiting period is long. This gives the bowyer time to make sure the wood is dried Properly. This is one reason they
Ah want to keep some or all of the deposit.
Talk with your bowyer every situation is different and yes some bowyer do require a non refundable deposit.
This should be made clear by the bowyer or clearly spelled out on their website. I'm sure they have their reasons and this has never been a problem with me as I understood the requirements prior to making the deal :readit:
Most if not all bowyers are willing to work with you. Give your bowyer a call.
:nono:
I know Bigfoot policy states a Non-refundable deposit.
Non refundable deposit here. I used to do refunds but I had some experiences that really burned me. Sad tales but found out after I had bows half built that people just wanted to buy a different bow and were being less than forthright with me.
After a couple of times I went with non refundable. However if I do not fulfill my time obligation I offer a full refund back if the buyer wants it. So far I have met my time obligations. I start the bow when I get the deposit so I do have an investment.
I limit the amount of orders I take though because I never want to get in a situation that will leave anyone without their bow or their money.
God bless, Steve
Sound policy Steve, that makes sense for both you and the buyer.
Non refundable here. Thats not to say your money is gone. Its not. Your money then becomes a credit with us. Thats my policy. Of course its my policy so I have made exceptions on occasion. HOWEVER, for that generosity I have been burnt many times. It leaves a bad taste in your mouth when you try to help someone out then you see pictures of their other new bow they just bought. :rolleyes:
you may also want to ask if the bowyer can just "roll you back" on the list, if that would give you time to recoup etc.
I'm with Bill. A non refundable deposit means just that as any other business. You know that going in.. Why make the bowyer responsible for your decisions. As a bowyer we buy most all materials in higher quantities and not for a specific order, exception maybe a special riser woods.
Word travels around on these sites fast, and its like a threat when a bowyer stick to there return, orders or warrantees.
Roll back will work for most bowyer unless bow in already in production or completed.
Non-refundable here also. After having guys order multiple bows from multiple bowyers years ago and then cancel for a refund for the fun of saying they had 5 bows on order we put this policy in place.
I've made exceptions on occasion but that's my decision at the time. We roll back on the list at times also.
Mike
I guess I never considered that a deposit should be refundable. I have just always assumed that bowyers would be like most other businesses. I expect them to honor the price that was quoted at the time of the order. And I expect that if I back out on the contract through my own choice that I will lose my deposit.
It only seems fair to me. By the time an order is placed a bowyer has probably spent a significant amount of time with the customer, done paperwork, done the accounting on his business records (or paid someone to do it for him). All that preliminary stuff takes time, and just like every job you've ever worked on, time is money.
Although I sure wouldn't do it, I have no doubt there are plenty of people who just can't make up their minds and would place multiple orders just to get "on the list" and hold a spot, only to cancel on all but one when the time nears.
Keeping a credit on the books seems like a very fair solution. If a bowyer is generous enough to offer a refund in select cases, that is going above and beyond expectations in my opinion.
The deposit is a deposit,means that is what you are willing to give to insure you get the bow you want.Non-refundable !But ,it depends on the bowyer ,were he is in the build etc. I would understand if you do not get it back and be happy if you did.If you are on the list for a bow, the next person has to wait longer and for that reason the bowyer may loose a sale.
The only time I asked for a deposit back and got it was when I ordered from O.L. Adcock. He did not meet his time and I even waited a few more months. He refunded with no questions.
Actually, quite a few bowyers ask for a non-refundable deposit. I think it's fair. I am willing to do it.
Let me start by stating I do not have any issues with the non-refundable deposit on a bow.
But in the custom knife world a maker that requires a deposit, refundable or not, is frowned apon. Unless expensive and/or rare materials (ivory, walrus tooth, etc.) are used.
I know a bow is more user specific. But if a bowyer is in high demand that a lead time is required, I am sure any bows not going to the orginal buyer will sell quickly at show or on the net.
Just wonder why the differnece?
Moral of the story: Really think through your decision to purchase a bow before putting down a deposit and make sure you are perfectly clear on what the bowyer's policy is on deposits.
Certainly, unexpected things can come up in life, especially when some wait times can be 1-2 years, but the bowyer shouldn't have to feel the burden of it.
I understand a non refundable deposit if there has been any form of work done towards my bow. But as it stand I'm a name on a long list my bowyer has not even taken any info on my bow. Money is not the only issue I'm considering hanging up trad shooting all together.
Mr. Fingers, my opinion is that it doesn't matter what myself or anybody else on this forum thinks. It is between you and the bowyer. Your best bet is to call and discuss it with them. Good luck!
X2 on Sam's post......
QuoteOriginally posted by Froggy:
X2 on Sam's post......
X3 I was just feeling it out it is between me and my bowyer. I just feel bad I'm where I'm at right now.
QuoteOriginally posted by Mr. fingers:
QuoteOriginally posted by Froggy:
X2 on Sam's post......
X3 I was just feeling it out it is between me and my bowyer. I just feel bad I'm where I'm at right now. [/b]
Thanks everyone for your opiinions
Our policy is same as Bill and Mike's. I did make a exception one time but that was only because of special circumstance. They always have a credit until they are ready.
What good is a deposit if it binds nothing.
I have lost two sizeable deposits in my day for hunts....The first for $3000 and the second for $5000. They hurt really badly, but I new up front they were non refundable.
We have a refund policy, but we retain a small percentage for charge fees as they are often non refundable after a certain time frame. We also offer roll back or 100% trade for items in our store.
It is easier if the depositor finds someone to purchase their spot.
Thanks, bigjim
I've always refunded deposits when guys say they fall on tough times and can't afford the bow. Many times, I know they are just having "buyer's remorse" or found something else they want to buy. But I do it anyway as it doesn't cost me anything as I usually haven't started the bow.
If I've started the bow, then I keep a small part of it as stock bows sell for less then custom orders.
This happens more then you would think but overall it is a small percentage. It's just the way I've done it and I have never been accused of being a good businessman.
Call the bowyer and see what he says. Chad
My take is that if the bowyer has a non-refund policy (and I sure wouldn't blame any who do)and you know that going in, don't do it if you can't or won't abide by the policy. Just deal with bowyers who tell you they'll refund your deposit (if you find one).
I know this doesn't exactly pertain to your question,but look real hard in the classifieds. I've seen great bows in there for just a little more than some bowyers ask for a deposit,and the bows are practically new.
I found myself in a similiar situation a couple years back with Steve Gorr of Cascade archery. He actually has a no refund for deposits policy, if I recall. The military threw me a curve ball and I could not purchase the bow any longer. Steve is great! I called him and explained my situation. He promptly gave me a full refund. Contact your bower. He may just work with you.
I would not expect it, it is a deposit.
Interesting thread with the varied perspectives and seemingly, all well thought thru.
Only counter to a refund is the other side of the same coin...we plunk down a deposit, lock in a price quote and then want to bail...
OK...so what if the bowyer misses your bow limb weight? Would you say, "I'm sorry, but I contracted for X weight and you built Y, so do it over?"
Over the years, I know many bow builders who have a sizable inventory of missed-weight limbs. Customers want what they ordered at the price they ordered.
I'd say, that should work both ways like the majority of bowyer's who replied above. Most bowyers are very decent folks...and if a situation is genuine, they do what they can.
I like the suggestion and some saying they "roll back" the spot to allow time to regroup! Neat!
Doc Nock:I'd say, that should work both ways like the majority of bowyer's who replied above. Most bowyers are very decent folks...and if a situation is genuine, they do what they can.
There Ya go:
God bless you all, Steve
That was my point, Steve. We as customers want to hold the bowyer to HIS agreement for our benefit, so why should it be different if we make a contract and then things change on our end?
But stuff does happen, and all the bowyers I've met were stand up people... when and if THEY can...they seem to do all they can.
I have a non refundable deposit policy, this turns into a credit for the customer if times get tough. With a 4-6 week wait time, I order anything I need for your bow when we hang up the phone. Risers are cut out for accents when I have the jig set up so your riser may be cut out immediately or weeks before your bow is glued up.
My deposit requirement is $100, fair to me to obtain materials, I think fair to a customer that isn't into a bow so far we can't delay an order if necessary.
You can sell your spot( deposit) on the waiting list as long as the bow Is not glued yet. Lot's of guys are interested in a shorter wait. I did it ( as the buyer) several times and was really pleased to wait 2-3 monthes instead of the full year...
There are lots of times when I am confused and surprised by the way people think.
Why any one would think that a deposit SHOULD be refundable is beyond me. As a buyer you are entering into an agreement to make a purchase and consumating that agreement with a deposit. To expect it back because you change your mind is unreasonable.
Yes if you become a victim of circumstance I think it fair to appeal to the bowyers humanity but that should be at his discretion, I don't think it should be expected.
Conversely if the bowyer exceeds his timing commitment or misses weight beyond whatever their stated parameters it should be his responsibility to return the deposit.
Logic dictates that if it were not so why would anyone ask for a deposit in the first place??????????
Dan
my experiences making and selling bows is not current but from the early 90's on...I dont think this is too different from now with one main exception ...the internet...back in those days most sales were generated from doing hunting shows etc, or direct from my shop.The internet can make things a bit different as far as being able to get a better idea of whom you are dealing with.
there was a bit more personal involvement back then...that said in my mind a non refundable deposit is for bows that are not something normally made...say a purple heart & osage handle with elk ivory inlays etc...35# limbs, left hander etc...not something I would want hanging on the "for sale" rack in the shop...( I have friends that have had similar bows hanging for years...not to mention my taxidermist friends)what may be your dream custom bow might be something some would never want anything to do with.
all the bowyers I know and knew made their bows from materials they had in stock,(.050 & .070 glass, red elm, osage or zebra lams, and all the basic riser woods) so its not a matter of special materials etc...so unless the bow was completed in a very custom state I would never have a problem refunding a deposit...in the case of a super custom model, I would still refund after the bow was sold...( hopefully for few bucks more than the deposit...sometimes it does not work out that way)
the responsibility here as far as deposit protocall is on the buyer who commited to a sale. The bowyer is responsible to deliver the bow as ordered in the time frame promised...however a decent bowyer who is interested in not only his reputation, but also being understanding of circumstances of someone should work it out...
in a nutshell...a standard bow made from stock materials is no problem...its when the order gets more involved the procedure would have to be adjusted...JMHO...
If he has not even started building the bow there is no reason to not give the refund. If you wanted a some order riser wood it might be a different story but a bowyer who refuses refunds is hurting himself in the long run.
This is just my opinion but I have no problem with a bowyer that has a no refund policy (and might choose to work with someone in certain circumstances if he chooses) The policy should be clear going in and it's my choice as to whether or not to enter in to that agreement.
By the same token, I would expect the bowyer to give me a firm delivery date. If that date isn't met, it should be my right to demand a refund if I choose. I'm not a big fan of the "you give me my money when I want it and I'll give you your bow when I get around to it" type of transaction.
A business transaction is a two way street. "Stuff" comes up on both sides. I can't tell you how many stories I've heard about both sides not living up to what was promised.
I think the fair response would depend on the circumstances. If someone pays a deposit to a bowyer who is on top of things and cranking out bows within a couple of months of the order, he shouldn't expect to get his deposit back. OTOH, some bowyers are backed up and wait times are more than a year. A lot can happen in a year, and if somebody cancels an order during that year, the main result would be to make people further down the list get their bows a little sooner. The bowyer is not going to make any fewer bows or any less money, so long as he keeps working on his backorder list. Obviously, if the bowyer has spent any of the deposit on material that can't easily be used on another bow, that cost should come out of the deposit. I also don't see any problem with the bowyer keeping 10% of the deposit to cover the time he spent taking the order and making the refund.
That said, I agree that a bowyer has the right to make whatever policy he wants. If he takes 5 years to make a bow, and demands a $1,000 non-refundable deposit up front, that's his right, so long as he can find any customers who will agree with that policy. At my age, I wonder if I should even risk buying any green bananas, but to each his own.
QuoteOriginally posted by Whip:
I guess I never considered that a deposit should be refundable. I have just always assumed that bowyers would be like most other businesses. I expect them to honor the price that was quoted at the time of the order. And I expect that if I back out on the contract through my own choice that I will lose my deposit.
It only seems fair to me. By the time an order is placed a bowyer has probably spent a significant amount of time with the customer, done paperwork, done the accounting on his business records (or paid someone to do it for him). All that preliminary stuff takes time, and just like every job you've ever worked on, time is money.
Although I sure wouldn't do it, I have no doubt there are plenty of people who just can't make up their minds and would place multiple orders just to get "on the list" and hold a spot, only to cancel on all but one when the time nears.
Keeping a credit on the books seems like a very fair solution. If a bowyer is generous enough to offer a refund in select cases, that is going above and beyond expectations in my opinion.
X2
When I have ordered bows with a non-refundable deposit I pretty much knew it going in to the deal. A deposit to me is a promise to the Bowyer that is he is willing to make the bow I order. I will finish paying at the completion of the build.
I won't order a bow unless I have the money to pay for it stashed away.
Falling on hard times or being tight on money happens. I would consider that my problem and never think of backing out of the deal, let alone ask for the deposit back.
Thats just not right in my mind
I find myself gravitating toward bowyers who require small or no deposits, and there are actually a good many of them around. On the other hand, I fully support a bowyer's right to set their own deposit and refund policy. They should make this policy known up-front to the customer.
I take deposits in my business, and I do it to intentionally secure the business agreement. My refund policy is to determine that on a case-by-case basis. Generally, once my company begins prep work or material acquisition...the refund option disappears.
What I don't like? I don't like any business which requires my (or your) deposit toward future work, but the deposit is used to pay today's bills and keep the doors open. I think those businesses are on shaky ground.