Well, I have been bare shaft tuning with some surprising results!
I have a 44# @28" recurve that i'm drawing to 30". The bow weighs in at 48# at my 30" draw. I'm shooting off the shelf w/ a 10 strand FF string, riser cut 1/8" before center.
The GT 3555 shafts i have are full length 30". The fletched shafts have 3- 4" feathers.
I started with 50gr brass inserts and 125gr. field points. The bare shafts way right, missing the bag! Weak, right?
I am right handed.
I change to 100 gr points and then to 75 gr. points. (still 50gr insert) Each change showing an improvement. The bare shafts are on the bag and closing to the fletched shafts. The bare shafts are still a few inches to the right at about 15 yards so I remove the brass and go with the standard inserts and start with 100 gr points. Still showing weak!
So now i try the 75 gr. points, getting closer but still showing weak. I built out the riser with a toothpick giving me another 1/16" or so and it is an improvement. The arrows shooting more like darts now, im close but...
I would reallly like to at least have a 100gr point on the front and now my arrows are weighing really too light. It looks like i have to go 5575, which is fine but am i missing something here? Stu's calculator states that i am right on with 50gr inserts and 100 gr. points.
Could this be right? Could a 48# bow be making these 3555 shafts in to noodles? I have searched here on TradGang and many folks are shooting my weight range and more with anywhere from 100 gr to 175gr up front FULL LENGTH.
Please help to keep me from having to buy some more shafts if i don't have to. What might i be missing?
Thank you for your help,
Kirk
I would say your setup should be fine. I have the same problem wit a new bow, so I will follow this thread carefully.
Strange thing is however, when a friend of mine shoots my setup, the arrows fly dead-center. And his draw length is even one inch more..... When I shoot it, they go to the right. Maybe it is something in the grip or getting to have used to a new bow.... It is the first bow I have which is cut 3/16 past center, maybe I have to make the strikeplate thicker, or maybe I will have to get used to that bow...
Hi
i shoot a longbow that is 48@28 , i draw 28. its also 1/8 before centre and has a 10 strand FF on it.
i shoot full length 3555s with 135gr up front. they fly great.
the thing with the carbons is that they seem to recover very quickly from paradox and they dont behave exactly like woodies. so you can have a 3555 with 250 gr and shoot it from a 50lb bow and yes it may be 20Lb under but if it flys great then people use them .
Same with stiffer arrows, ive got some 7595s with almost 400gr up front. they should be 10lbs too weak for the bow, yet they bareshaft stiff and fly terribly!
try a 5575 see how it goess.
likely the 30" draw...bow design and string playing into it also along with your shooting style. Most likely if I had to guess its just how you shoot, and that 30" draw. A 35-55 gt spines at 55lbs. You're already at 48lbs, factor in another 10 for the 30" draw, another 5 or so for the extra weight up front with the 125 head, string material is still in question, and bow design could up this number even more, actual arrow length could also factor in here if you're leaving things long?
Calculaters are places to start, references if you will, not end all equations to finding the perfect spine. The only end all is actual range time.
The problem with todays shops is few have/sell/use tuning arrows to get you started BEFORE you buy!!! A good shop (or online store) should sell you (or let you use if you're at a shop) a batch of test shafts, at the right length in different spines. Its by and far the fastest way to find the right arrow. A tupperware with some extra heads of different weights and you'll be on in short order.
Again calculators dont factor in things like human element, bow design, strings etc. Too many varibles. Some potentially get you close. Some work for a general "bulk" group of people but by and far not everyone!
I SHOOT A 52 LB BOW 62 inches long,an a 46 lb bow 60 in long. both recurves all mine shoot great with a full shaft,a 50gr insert an a 150 gr tip on a gt 35-55 shaft.I guess its bow design, release,or fourm.some bows like different stuff,let us know what you wind up with
one other thing STOP BARESHAFTING it will drive you crazy an you don't really need to do it if it flys good go with it good luck
I agree that shooting style plays into this equation. The other thing that you need to realize is that you WANT a slightly weak bare shaft! When you fletch up your arrow, you should be dead-on. Fletching will "stiffen" the arrow, so put some feathers on one of those slightly weak shafts and see what happens. I suspect you will have an arrow that works well for you.
Claudia
Agree with AkDan, it' your 30" draw. Just keep building out your side plate temporarily with adhesive backed velcro till you get dialed in. Pinecone has a great point also. Remember to only change ONE variable at a time.
Not very experienced in this but I have a 48# buffulo that I tried CE150's in and the would bareshaft weak with anything up front. Went to CE250 and 250gr up front. Still had to cut them down to 31.25" to get them right. I draw 30 also. Try CE250's or 5575 and I think it will come together for ya. If you draw 30 and your arrow is 30 your broadheads are gonna be at your knuckles.
sounds like you might need to try bump up to next shaft....5575. that 30" draw is a monster....good luck.
Pc, is right bare shafting u want slightly weak.
Bare shafting works regardless what some say. Lots of ways to skin the cat. The more tools you're proficient with the easier the end results will come! Bare shafting is just one of those tools and works. And you don't need absolute perfect form to get results. The more consistent the medium the less process's you'll apply to get a result. It's what we all strive for.....consistency.
There is something else wrong! First unless I missed it, you are shooting these arrows with feathers and not bareshafting. Second, I hadn't noticed weather you are LH or RH.
When did you get the shafts and have you checked the length? they have been 32"s for the last year and a half. Second, If your bow is cut shy of center...that's how I read it then it negates most if not all the affect that you are getting from the longer draw.
What about shelf wear. Have you noticed that you are getting a wear spot yet? What about noise from the bow, liking maybe a thud or smack noise from arrow making contact as it passes by?
If you can't bareshaft properly, you are missing something.
Things to check:
Start off in the given range of brace height (you shouldn't know what is perfect yet as you have yet to get an arrow to tune properly in order to check for sweet spot.
Make sure that your arrow nocks are not too tight on the string...this can be a big issue! too many guys expect them to snap and lock into place and this is not good.
Increase your nock pt height to ensure that you are at least above ideal and even a little high...start at 5/8" to under side (for split) and 3/4" to under side (for three under).
When you get the arrow spined correctly, you can work your nock pt down a little at a time. When you find the ideal location for it, bump it up a smidge for a fudge factor.
This can be very, very important! Install a second nock pt under your arrow nock leaving a little bit of space so the arrow doesn't get pinched at full draw. This can be an advantage for both split and three under (proven to be so with high speed photography). Tie on nocks can be very helpful since they can be adjusted by twisting.
There are always other variables that can cause minor adjustments for tuning. Most all bows are going to cast very similarly. Don't just assume that what you have is so powerful that it has to have something special (not likely) and skinny strings have little affect.
Another distinct possibility is that your limbs may be pulling to one side or the other. Most guys can't tell...or they don't want to admit it when I point it out to them.
Say for instance, one or both limbs pull a little to the shelf side, then that bow will act as though it is cut more too or past center and the opposite if they pull the other way.
And last but not least (maybe as important as any of the above) is your personal form. Now I have no idea what you are doing right or wrong, but I am surprised at how many people are adamant about how they don't do this or that (myself included) until someone proves it to them.
When I ask someone to watch my draw for arrow length, I draw 32" +, but if someone tells me without me asking (I am shooting without concern of my draw) I only draw about 31- 31.5"s.
Way too many things to take into account here. If anything, I would say you are right on with the 3555's but I can only assume without knowing more.
Best of luck, BigJim
And you can try 5" feathers instead of 4"
They are too weak for me out of a 47# Wes Wallace with 30" arrows, std inserts and 125 gtr points. Had to go with 5575s and 145 gr points to fly well and weigh right.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bud B.:
And you can try 5" feathers instead of 4"
And maybe a 16 strand B50 string.
My draw is an inch less then yours and I've never been able to get a 500 spine arrow to tune in anything down to #46. Well at least not with an arrow that was at least 9 gpp. Swap the 500s for 400s and move on. Your bow is telling you everything you need to hear, I'd listen to it before us internet experts.
I would listen to what your bare shafts tell you.
I use 31" .340s with a 250 grain point out of my 50#@29" recurve so I'm not surprised that you need a .400 for your 48# bow (if I remember correctly a 3555 is a .500, 5575 is .400).
I'm shooting VAP 350s, .350 spine, out of my Morrison Cheyenne with Max 1 carbon/foam core limbs, 45#@28". When I have the proper anchor, form and release, they fly like darts to where I'm looking. When anchor, form and/or release aren't what they should be, I get an indication of weak spine with fliers to the right side of the target.
Bill
PS It's not the arrows, it's Bill!
Wow! Thanks for all the informative replies!
I am RIGHT handed.
When bareshaft tuning i am comparing identical arrows except three with fletchings and three or more without.
It most certainly could be my form. I have a low anchor under my jaw bone. It is just where i settled. I have studied Terry's form clock.
I do understand Stu's calculator is just a starting point but I am so surprised that my tune is so different. On second thought maybe 90-100gr difference on the point is not that much. :rolleyes:
I guess at some point i need to stop bareshafting as i understand the bare shafts need to show slightly weak. But what is slightly weak? At 16-17 yards i have 8" between my fletched group and the bare group. I thought they should be closer.
I most definately change one thing at a time. How else could i make sense of this! :notworthy: It's what TradGang is all about.
Kirk
Biathalonman and Easykeeper:
Thanks- i will listen. I'm just making sure. :)
Wlidman Bill:
That is some very useful bit of experience. I will be sure to scrutinize my form.
Alas the great question - when is it the arrow shaft is weak and when is it my form? Ha Ha
Kirk
I misunderstood your original post and thought your bare shaft and fletched arrows were hitting together and both were 8" to the right. If your bare shafts are grouping together and the fletched arrows are grouping together, but the groups are 8" apart, that definitely indicates a spine issue.
I agree with the posters who said "listen to your bow". I like Stu's calculator, but sometimes have to add in a "personal factor" of quite a bit. Once the calculator agrees with what I'm seeing, I can use it to play "what if" games with a high degree of confidence if I want to change arrow spines and point weight.
I agree with listening to your bow.. but there is more to it than that. I had a customer who knew a lot about archery, built a few bows and had been doing this forever. Said that he had a bow that he just couldn't get quiet and there must be something wrong.
I asked all the questions...yep he said, it sounds like the arrow is hitting the bow, but the bare shafts are tuning perfect! Must be the bow!
He left the bow with me and I inspected it, I checked everything and it was up to snuff, but I had customers everywhere and couldn't give it the time needed. As I walked around and helped others in my vendor tent, I glanced at the bow and noticed that he had worn through the leather on the outside of the shelf. Bingo!
I had thought his arrow choice was too stiff, but he wouldn't hear any suggestions. After all, it bare shafted perfect (but there was this noise).
Finally I convinced him to shoot a lighter spine and low and behold, not only did it bare shaft great, but the noise was gone.
Moral of the story: you can force things to work, change a little hear and there, but in the end, the only time they fly well is when you are perfect.
Start from the beginning. Your nocks won't show badly from being too loose and if you don't have a second nock point, loose nocks will absolutely slide down the string after release causing tuning issues.
Pay more attention to the direction of the nock in air and while shaft is in the bag than the impact location. Nock will almost always be a little high even if nock point is too low. for now, quit shooting your feathered arrows.
Last question, if your arrows are 30"s, are you drawing the point right back to the back edge of the bow?
good luck, bigjim
Tightening the nocks will increase dynamic spine! It's where I would start, if they're loose. Try a layer of dental floss as a test wrapped edge to edge. If u need slightly more pull the tag under where the nocks at, if not tie off below.
Form differences in just how you hold the string can/will affect needed spine. It's not a big deal but like has been said the range time will give you the answer you're seeking! It's why two guys with the same bow may require different setups to get perfect arrow flight. There's other factors to consider like bow design being one and I have to disagree with Jim on skinny vs standard diameter strings. I did have to jump spine when swapping from a 15 strand d97 to an 8 strand d97 string. Now something I've pondered but haven't bothered to confirm (measure) is the possibility my final string diameter at the knock point created the needed jump. Either way she shoots great! It's fun to tinker but in this case no diameter combo allowed me to shoot my old shafts on the skinny. I build my own strings and this is the first bow I've had a skinny on, though I have shot this bow for 8 or so years now. My skinny string experience is limited. Before the skinny she shot good with a slightly weaker shaft.
Theres a lot of what ifs here, in tuning there's no absolutes but perfect arrow flight. Human element thrown in can really throw u for a loop of whys and how comes. I can't leave well enough alone either so I can understand ones pain seeking answers.
I don't build bows (other than tinkering from time time with them) so I'm eagerly listening to Jim's advice here. I'm an arrow guy. Why one bow is easier to tune than another with the same shooter raises many questions I've had over the last 20 odd years. Somewhere on that road gave up asking those questions! I contribute my lack of hair to it lol.
Big Jim:
I meant to tell you in my other post that i have no unusual noise from the bow. Just a bit of a twang from the string noise.
I like your story and hope to get them flying perfect.
I have considered going to a lighter spine as well. It could be many things as you said and i stay open-minded.
I will be sure to put another nock point below the arrow too. I was wondering if the sliding nock could be an issue. Thanks
I will start again with just bare shafts and look for the nock travel and placement. I will put my fletched arrows away for now. So nock right is stiff or weak? I thought maybe it was stiff. Nock high i raise the nock point.
When you say "back" edge of the bow you mean the side closest to me? Or do you mean the "back" side of the bow as in "belly or back" parts of the bow? Or are they the same thing - always confused me that part. Darn Multiple meaning words. :)
Fortunately the arrow nock gives me about 7/16" so that helps but to answer your question, the back of the arrow point is just about on the furthest edge of the riser shelf, so my hand and wrist are safe.
Thanks for your time and input Jim! I appreciate it.
Kirk
AkDan,
Interesting tid bit on the tightness of the nock. I have been meaning to wrap a bit of floss on the serving just to keep my arrow on the string. I see what you mean that tight nocks can stiffen spine. But obviously too tight can be an issue too. Ha ha.
I will try both a lower nock point and a thicker serving, but only one at a time! :)
I think your right, more range time and less questions. After all what is more fun and more telling in the long run.
Thanks Dan,
Kirk
naw questions are good, its how everyone learns. We all learn from each other, no need to reinvent the wheel! In the end the questions make sense of it all at the range, or can be that loose breadcrumb missing from the picture of the puzzle we're trying to see/understand that ties it all together. I've learned plenty from many on here over the years! I just wish I could remember it all haha.
I'm with Jim on coming down from higher up on nock point though I start quite a bit higher usually. My goal is to error slightly nock high....It helps with potential feather clearance problems. Its not common but every now and than I get a bounce from an arrow. If I didn't number them and run through paper I wouldn't have figured it out. Turn the nock slightly and wamo bullet holes. Its so suttle you cant see it without paper. My thought is these little bounces can cause flyers with bh's. Ever wonder why one arrow just doesn't seem to fly like it should, well this COULD be an issue. If you never shot it through paper you'd likely never see it!
I don't shoot two nocking points but I do believe its a good idea overall. reason...hunting. I stalk most of the time and some shots happen fast. I know how I am, I'll screw it up with two nock points, for me habit dictates I stay with one. I need to eliminate any 'Dan'errors I can and this was one of them, lord knows I have plenty lol. But it alone could help. Thinking aloud, if a guy had the nock points too close it would at full draw pinch the arrow nock slightly. It alone I THINK could help with dynamic spine though I've no need to tinker with it.
Bill Matlock has a good 'pamphlet' if you will on tuning. I bought it for target panic before his stroke. If you can find it, you wont be disappointed buying it.
If she's loose and you tighten it, she's going to act stiffer. The arrows going to stay on the string longer, you're going to loose some speed which in turn is to a degree like cranking a bow down in weight, hence making the arrow act weaker. I believe she's also more critical of torqueing or bowhand flaws during the shot as the arrow does stay on longer. How much adjustment you can do without getting to tight will affect how it reacts to it. This is where people differ. This is not an exact science, its not a lab specimen under controlled conditions, I think we as a society compare lab results in our heads to theories of what should or shouldn't be. I know I've sat and pondered some of my questions for way too long and have yet to find answers to some (Deans thoughts on tiller makes sense but I still cant visual it without reading it a hundred times over and over and over again, maybe its my poor English comprehension that's the missing link haha). If you're tight already you may see very little if any change before you cant or shouldn't add anymore. On the other hand, if you're uber loose, this one thing is maybe the 'why' to your initial question though I'm sure you'll find its a multitude of factors acting together to get the not so great results ;) . Its these goofy little nuances that bite us in the end usually.
I'm a bareshaft guy its a simple place to start! Get close, feet not yards and start shooting. My range is in my house, I can shoot all winter and tinker without the joys of messing around with frozen targets or frozen field points in targets at crazy cold temps, or worse yet...missssssing altogether and hunting for arrows in the snow. The confusion on bareshafting is impact (group) vs angle (nock left or right). Some target mediums CAN (but not nessicarily do), mess with this nock left or right after impact. For instance my new block target works fine, an old wore out foam target can screw it up. The obvious is shooting a few shots, not just one. There is no fast results. Your last sentence says it all...what's more fun for tinkerers than tinkering ;) .
Anyways, NOCK left is weak, NOCK right is stiff. Its really that simple. for starters you're trying to get slightly weak. If you get perfect, lower the bh slightly and you'll likely be right on when you fletch. If you paint you may need a little more than slightly weak. what is slightly weak? There is no answer for it. Too many variables to comprehend. Once you get here, its time to group test.
Again imho it's a starting place (bareshafting). I also like paper to confirm and finish with shooting bh's.
Other issues with bareshafting is paint (along with feathers) adds weight to the back end which again increases dynamic spine some more. How much will be dependant on how heavy the cap/cresting combo is. Anything added to the back end increases dynamic spine. The farther back from center it is the more drastic its effect on dynamic spine will be. (same theory as center serving on bowstrings, closer to center on the string the more effect it will have).
I've also noticed over the years, and have contacted bohning about it, that the throat on a 5/16ths classic is NOT the same as a 11/32 classic, close but not the same! they commented they are but its very obvious to anyone I've showed it too they are different by just putting an arrow on the string. This takes us back to nock tightness.
I noticed it after screwing around with some parallel shafts. I hunt with tapered shafts and didn't have any tapered test shafts on hand in some spine groups I wanted to tinker with so I shot some parallels. Once you start bareshafting with a couple shafts and get close you can see these little changes take effect immediately (IF it does anything at all depending on what medium you've tried to adjust and its over all effects on dynamic spine).
Mind you some of this stuff is more along the lines of fine tuning, once you start getting close making these not so normal adjustments can bring it home without ending up with a bh overly high or low.
Moving silencers and reducing the amount of center serving, can also help speed the string up, which will require a stiffer arrow....adding more serving will slow it down at a cost, noise and vibration. The strings going to end up oscillating more hence more noise. Again more fine tuning stuff you can tinker with. If you double serve this adding or subtracting serving amounts can be much more noticeable depending no how much you initially started with.
Silencers on a hole are inherently light for most of us. though I've seen strings that looked like they wrapped the hole beaver around it to shut it up. the more material on the string the slower its going to be, the closer it is to center, again the slower its going to be, in effect increasing or decreasing dynamic spine again. More fine tuning fun ;) !
lastly their is one other thing you could try before you get too crazy. You'll see this one in Byrons book.
if you don't already have it, a pressure point on the shelf moved forward and back will in effect increase/decrease dynamic spine. It may or may not be enough to help you. Most of us opt for those two pressure points (on the shelf and site window), to be at the pivot point of the bow or deepest part of the grip if you will.
I shoot 47# @ 29.75" with (2) different bows and both would not shoot 3555 or 5575 shafts well. I found they both shoot .400 spine arrows full length with 200gr tips and standard aluminum inserts awesome. I've had great luck with beman mfx classics and Easton bloodrunner shafts. I can bare shaft out to 50yds. I also talked with Stu and he was surprised by my results. Don't worry about what a calculator says, or what everybody else tells you that you should be shooting. Shoot what works for you and have fun.
Kirkbow,
Do you shoot with a glove or a tab? I know this sounds crazy and folks will think I'm full of it but......for me....a tab gives a much smoother release and I get a stiffer arrow reaction from it. Along with the other recommended changes, try a few shots with a slick tab and see if it changes your BS impact points. It did for me. Good luck!