not trying to open a can of worms here so please just add if you can help or give me some advice. i shoot a 63# at my draw no problem and all day long. i have been wanting to tinker around with a "heavy" bow for awhile now. as luck would have it i have been gifted a awesome by by a awesome friend! it is around #77 pounds at my draw. i can draw, anchor and shoot without a big problem but i know i could not shoot this monster all day or at a 3d. my questions is what can i do to work in to this bow? such as exercise or other wise that would help? again i can shoot it pretty good but would like to be able to be "comfortable" while shooting it. any advice?
Hi Ken. I'd say keep at it and it will come. I moved up from 75# to 80# over the summer, and I thought the same thing. I started making my practice shooting into a workout at the same time; holding each shot for a five count before release. Took a few weeks, but now it is just as comfortable as the old one was. Some folks have whole exercise regimens that work for them, but just plain old shooting is what worked for me to go to 80#. I just ordered my first, custom for me, Leon Stewart Slammer at 100#. This may be a different story.
Tom
Keep at it. That is truly the best way. Shoot it and pull it back when you can't get outside. If you shoot at say a dozen or max couple dozen shots every day or every other day within a few months or so it will seem quite manageable. Draw and hold with a slow letdown exercises work wonderfully as the slow letdown will actually build your strength faster than the actual pull. Have fun! I've got a 70" 100@30 Hill coming from Bama in 4 months, can't wait! Been limited to 65# lately but before that had a a 70 and a 90# bow, with the advice above I was able to shoot the 90 pretty comfortably.
I shoot quite a bit like Tom suggested. Lots of "timed hold" shots close to a target. With this sort of shooting, I'm not as concerned about accuracy, just building / maintaining strength. I can shoot a couple of times a week for accuracy.
There are various regimens that you can do without the bow in your hand, as well. The book "Precision Archery" by Steve Ruis has a routine, as does a video "Dead on Tradtitional" and another about shooting big bows, or something.
Like any physical pursuit, a good training regimen and dedication, would likely pay off.
hope this helps.
homebru
Hey Ken, don't forget to warm up those shoulders first. I do some arm circles first just to limber up a bit, followed by a little stretching, Marine Corps daily seven style. Just a minute or so to prevent strain injury.
Tom
Yes warm up! I actually had a lot of success warming up with a lighter bow first
no offense but to answer your question there is NO RISK as i do not have a problem with the weight just would like to feel more relaxed and handle it better all day. my question to you is why would you not shoot the heaviest bow YOU could? again this leads to a can of worms.....
Why would you risk driving a car, climbing a tree stand, using a knife, etc? It's what he wants to do. Let him do it. It's fun to try things. He's looking for advice, not criticism. I also mean no offense.
And you look like a stout dude Ken...lol
QuoteOriginally posted by skunkhound:
I really don't mean to offend anyone, but why would you risk your shoulder, elbow, and hand to draw such a heavy bow, when everything in North America can be killed with a 50# bow. All of the older guys I shoot with regret the damage they did to their bodies shooting such heavy bows when they were younger. Are the surgeries and arthritis really worth it?
Do we really need to start this? Let it go. The guy is young and strong and shoots a heavier bow than you. So what?
gringol ya hit it on the head man, the day i can not handle it i will send it to Steve at Northern mist and have him take some off but right now its all good and yes i am not a ballerina, bit on the short and stout side.....
Ken looks like he could go bear hunting with a switch, so if he can shoot that monster happily, go for it! If nothing else, you can probably club a deer to death with that bow.
Drewsbow said it was the most beautiful pry bar he ever saw.........
A beautiful bow Ken!
You are a lucky man
F-Manny
Ken I did about the exact move in weights that you have a few years ago, and I just kept the heavier bow in a corner of the house. When I walked by, I would draw it a few times and hold it at full draw for awhile. Did not take long at all.
thank you all for the advice!
Manny Red Moon is my go to bow and will always be, "Monster" will be his big brother!
Ken,
I do as mentioned above. When I walk by them in between honey do's, I draw, hold for 7 seconds, release or let down. Repeat as time allows.
You will build up in no time. I can shoot a 3D event easily with my #75's. I did it once with my Skookum that was #84 at my draw. I was only slightly fatigued, and a little sore the next day. I was using that bow as my work out bow. My new workout bow is #86.
I did well with CX350's out that bow.
Manny, I can't get your TC out my mind now. After I get my Black Canyon, I think I'll be saving up for a copy of yours. Boy, Jim has a ton of wood choices. I gotta stay off his site.
Do it while you are young and strong Ken... From what I've read, your body will build-up just what it needs to shoot that bow all day in time... Just draw-hold-let-down-slow seems to be the best way to gain strength..... :thumbsup:
As for me... I need to go down in draw weight... :archer2: ...
When I see guys driving $60 diesel pickups with smoke stacks for a tailpipe and 38" tires and drop down hitches getting 6 MPG I ask myself the same question...why??? I think among some of us younguns (31 here) it's just those phrases "I wonder if I can?" and "because I can" that push us in the heavy bow direction. Plus 34" 3/8" dia. wood arrows are just badass, its like chuckin spears. LOL. All them stories about Howard Hill don't help either.
I will say most guys I hear about shooting heavy bows are shooting Hill bows or mild R/D's. You don't hear much about crazy heavy hybrids...can you imagine a 100# Centaur? Or a 100# Border Hex6 setup? Fast??!! Whoa, now my wheels are turning...
Really though, my favorite weight range is mid 50's. I do enjoy the heavier weights for the speed and crisp release and the cool factor. Can't "weight" for my 100# Bama in 4 months..the "Werewolf" :D
got all i pretty much needed from those that helped, turning in to a pissing contest know. i will do it because I WANT TO and because I CAN. should have known better to post this anyway. Shawn fixed the short drawing 2 years ago with help from Ken Thornhill, no longer a problem. shoulders are strong as a bear i i could care less what happens 10 years down the road. i shoot #63 now all day long and in to the night with know issue. i shoot the #77 pound decent and looking to improve hence this post, going to keep shooting and take advice that was given on here. again WHY???? BECAUSE I CAN AND WANT TO nuff said.....
Good on ya Ken.
Settling for 'the average' is never where it's at ;)
Those us that can, do. The rest, well...
I've got some GT7595 blems 28 3/4 VON to BOP that should work with about 300 grains up front for you.
I foot mine with 2216 and then 2413 and they are bomb proof out of heavier bows.
Let me know if you want me to post 'em out before i head out moose hunting.
If you like lifting weights do some heavy dumbell rows. They really help me with bow drawing stamina.
Somebody will always open that can of worms, but I say go for it! As people have indicated build up to it carefully and stay in condition so that you can handle it well. When you get tired, put it down, but as you well know, over time you will become comfortable pulling that weight. Just be cautious that form does not suffer. Yes, I did hurt my shoulder with my heavy bow, but that was on me for using poor form. When I heal up sufficiently, I will again pull out the big boy. The first time I ever shot a 3D round that I thought was as good as I can do was with a 78# Bamboo Longhunter , so you will certainly be able to shoot a full 3D round.
Ken I've had some success increasing bow weights by treating drawing that bow just as I would doing heavy squats or bench press in the gym. 3-5 sets of 5 reps, slow and controlled. I shot at a BIG target from a few yards away so all I was concerned about was nice form with the heavy load. I found doing a comprehensive warm up that finished with heavy shoulder press and overhand heaves helpful.
I've found shoulder stability in the bow arm one of the hardest things to adjust to with heavier bows, my bow arm always wants to jump left on release.
I like the sound of the slow let down described above. I know them as 'negatives' and they are a proven, established method of developing strength.
When I started shooting over 60# bows my regular back workout started with 3x8 weighted overhand heaves (total 250#) but I couldn't properly pull a 70#@28" longbow. There's nothing like pulling a heavy bow to get good at pulling a heavy bow, imo.
Good luck
Jim
again thanks to all for the advice!
Daz i'll pick up some 75/95 some where around here would hate to ask that off ya but THANK YOU for that offer!
Naturally it will get easier with practice, but if you feel like you've reached a plateau of sorts, try some pushing exercises to strengthen your chest (push-ups, chest press, etc.). Our bodies like to be balanced; sometimes the only way to add pulling strength is to build some more pushing strength. Pull-ups will do a lot for back and core strength as well.
Ken brother, lots of good advises here. No doubt you will shoot Monster with ease soon.
Casey, you shot my Thunderchild extremely well, and this from the first arrow!
F-Manny
Double post. :(
QuoteOriginally posted by Shawn Leonard:
Nineworlds a 50# bow is just as fast as a 90# bow all else being equal drawlength gpp., same bow design, etc. Shawn
Shawn you're absolutely right, I should have clarified that it's the glory of feeling and seeing a danged heavy arrow fly that equal speed that makes one marvel...as I said 34",3/8" wood flying flat and true is a sight!
Ken-
I don't think anyone's getting out of line with a pissing contest, we're just chatting and bouncing thoughts around the campfire around here. Shawn or anyone else won't stop you, me, or others from shooting heavy. Variety is the spice of life. ;)
i have thicker skin then a gator just didn't want the thread getting locked up with some much helpful info.
I had a 73# recurve for a couple years loved that bow. I went from a 55# to the 73#. It tokk a few week of shorter practice sessions to get muscles acclimated but was very comfy in a quick time frame. Only reason I went to a 63# was I wanted to be able to practice more and the 73 was hard to draw after a long time on stand in winter. So I guess I wasn't as tough as I thought I was... lol. But I shot that heavy bow great, just not as long of sessions or as often.
It won't take long for your muscles to get adjusted. Enjoy that new bow.
Shooting a heavy bow is all about proper form and physical training. The three best exercises for developing back mucles (imo) are the deadlift, bent over or Kroc rows, and neutral grip pullups. (Google all three lifts for proper form)
I have seen numerous shoulder injuries from a lot of different sports, and it all comes back to lack of physical training. Develop a consistent LIFE LONG training program and you will avoid a lot of those "weekend" injuries. Dont let people who dont physically train hold you back. Good Luck.
Isn't it interesting that even though Ken asked for info on pulling heavy bows and specifically asked for no nay sayers (a couple of times)that he got them anyway.
I'm not a Dr. and don't play one on TradGang so I tend to question shoulder problem advice. There are a lot of reasons we have shoulder problems and it's not automatically because of bow shooting anymore than lacing up your boots causes back problems.
I spent most of a lifetime shooting bows 75# and more. I backed off from my favored 80 pounders after breaking my neck at the age of 33.
70 to 75# was still very doable.
Today at 66 I have no shoulder problems. I've backed off to about 55# these days. A life of hard physical labor and hard living has taken it's toll.
If I was able I'd still be shooting 70#. A good shooting 70 pounder pushing a 600 grain + arrow. Does compare similarly through a chrono to a 50 pounder. But that's the only place.
I've taken flying, swimming, running, and standing game at long and short distances with those bows. Cleaned up on the 3D courses where everyone else there knew they were competing for second place Because I was there.
So go ahead and enjoy it Ken. Just be careful as you advance.
I've been drawn into this discussion from the pissing match angle and I guess I've added to that. I've also said a few things that can be taken for boasting. I apologize for both.
Good on ya ken, heavy bows are rewarding if you are that way inclined
Warm up, draw or shoot regularly, draw and hold, draw to part draw length and hold. Most of the standard target archery manuals contain all the info you need, except it's pitched at beginners moving up from zero draw weight to a low draw, your moving just from a different place!
It's really worth getting your build up right. I blew out my bow Side AC joint trying to step from 75 to 110#. Caused a 3 month spell of no shooting at all.
I think such a step is possible but should be attempted in very small increments of increasing draw length, happily your step is much smaller and more sensible
All the best!
P.s. when it comes down to it we don't shoot barebow stick bows to make hitting targets easier
Mornin Ken,
I was gifted an 81 pound Dave Johnson longbow a year or so ago...and now shoot it regularly and routinely. At first it was heavy but I could shoot it a few times.
I put it in the house and every single time I walked by I stopped and drew that bow. Let it down s l o w l y.......
While training my body to do the extra work (just exactly like any other physical endeavor we need to train for) I started on a quest for extra heavy arrows...which was huge fun.
Now I shoot 20-30 arrows a day from this bow with no difficulty...and you will too.
I personally know guys who are built like power poles...all skinny and lean, who shoot 100 pound bows. It's all about approaching it smartly.
I also know people who run 2 miles in under 11 minutes, and others who dead lift 500 pounds.
so do you bro.
I agree that most if not all animals on this continent can or have been killed with lower weight bows. I have not killed everything so I can't say for sure, but I can say for sure there is nothing quite like matching yourself to a heavier bow and shooting an 800 grain arrow...the satisfaction that comes from that is very fullfilling....
Maybe not for everyone. But it is for me.
Good luck sir, I know you will succeed in your quest...I dont know how much help I can be to you, but I am at your service and wish you the best.
Duncan Idaho I bet I'm the only nerd on here that knows where your handle is from LOL! probably my favorite character of all time.
One other thing to notice; seems as if heavy bows are for younger guys..
Like Charlie, I shot an 83# recurve for years and years.. It was a killer !!
Now that I'm pushing 60 I'm shooting a bow just over 60#.. I've sure been toying with the idea of bumping that up a bit though, lol.. No fool like an old fool, eh...
Go get 'em Ken !
Be sure to work your bow arm also. To me it seemed like that was my weakest point when I started my climb. The main and only problem I have with shooting heavy bows is finding affordable arrows.
Thanks for stirring the pot, Jeff. There's nothing we want more than an internet pissing match. Thanks again.
I cleaned it up Ken....and its not going to get locked.
Here's a thread with tons of info...
CLICK HERE (http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=119566#000000)
Take your time, draw with your off hand, and listen to your body.
I have shot heavy stuff for years, but there are some days when I know I shouldn't, and I don't. Eventually the heavy bow will feel natural and light. At that point you could decide to stay put or head up to heavier weights. Following this method I hunted all last year with a 115# Hill. It took dedication, and i shot nearly everyday, but I enjoyed it immensely.
Most importantly is the fact that this bow means something special to you. Work into it and enjoy!
QuoteOriginally posted by Shawn Leonard:
Nineworlds a 50# bow is just as fast as a 90# bow all else being equal drawlength gpp., same bow design, etc. Shawn
Yes Sir...but rest assured...the TRAIN WRECK aint the same!!!
Now, back to our regularly scheduled programing....
Ken You are my Hero!
just wish I had something to add that hasnt been said already!
Looking forward to seeing Monster the Prybar in person lol.
I like what you said Terry....train wreck..LOL...it really is tho...heavy arrows shot out of a heavy bow really do hit hard...hard to describe...
I'm totally done worrying about whether my arrow will go thru a bone....now I worry about ever finding the arrow after it goes thru the bone...but that's not a bad problem either.
good on you Ken, in a world where finding a used bow over 55 lbs any more is tough, and everyone says your over bowed if your shooting over what they shoot, its good to see someone actually work to achieve a goal that is VERY achievable. And to see the majority of the posters agreeing with you, I shoot 60lbs and I catch so much grief I almost wanna cover up the weight of my bow, After breaking both bicep tendons a year apart, I had to drop weight some but hope to get back to 65 lbs , my 60th birthday is in a couple months, maybe I will gift myself a new set of limbs!! good luck, it sounds like it wont be a problem for ya
thanks again for all the help and info. the bow now sits in the corner and i draw it and let down S L O W L Y when i go by. it really is not that much of a jump as i have been shooting a #63 long bow for 2 years now and i am very comfortable with it, use it at 3d's with no problem and feels really smooth. troth be told the #77 ( #80@28 i draw 27) did not feel to bad to begin with but i want to become as comfortable with it as i am my #63 pound hence this thread looking for advice on how to do so. and great info i received! no about arrows for the monster, could use some advice there too if possible. was thinking about some carbons in the 75/95 range and messing with weight up front. also Ron W gave me some 2216's to use and they flew GREAT but i am leary of aluminum at this weight?
Surewood makes doug fir shafts that are stiff enough for that. If you're going to shoot a bow built for paul bunyan, you might as well shoot woodies.
Welcome to the wild side Ken! I'm pretty excited for you! Been shooting these bigge4r bows for 37 years straight now. Let common sense prevail & you'll be fine. But, it IS an adjustment from lighter even 63#. Once you've worked yourself into these rocket launchers I'll bet you're in for the count? Great friend to share his bow like that! I'll forward some exercises. b
Haha, Never fails to stir up trouble when someone mentions bow weight. Ken I say go for it if it makes you happy. Some of us drive silly cars, some shoot heavy bows, some like big women .. lol. As they say, to each his own.
I shoot the most weight I can comfortably ... thats about 45# ... I'm not particularly weak, just don't have enough time to train properly with more.
Anyway, I commend your efforts .... one of these days I'll get myself to part with some money and get a 60#@28" bow ... bout 54 @ my 25" draw.
I hope this didn't sound negative at all ... I'm finding it hard to be funny and sincere through the written word right now ...
I've found bows in the 80s really like wood arrows, but there are a lot of options. Carbons (with a lot up front and maybe some weight in the arrows) or aluminums work equally as well. Shoot whatever you prefer, as long as the weight of the completed arrow is sufficient you will be fine. The choices for arrows gets more slim the higher up in weight you go.
Like to see a few pix of this new girl if you have them? Recognized some good folks herein some good hands indeed with no less enthusiasm working their way up a bit. They're willing to help whenever...Russ & Wade & last I saw even Terry was shooting around 77# with a Hill I believe? If you're having fun you're doing it right!
I think you will be shooting it just as good as your others in no time . Like others said just keep at it.
check the workout regiment posted on that other thread i provided a link 4. Most people are injured because they do not how to draw the bow correctly. also check the form clock thread featured at the top of the shooters forum
thanks Terry, have used the form clock often and just checked out the link!
straitera THANK YOU for the email TON of great things on there! i'll take some good pic's of the bow tomorrow, still uploading pic's to Photobucket now from CO elk hunt.
Ken,
I'm a wimp and admit a 70# Dan Quillion Patriot bested me. One tip I can pass is to pull something heavier as exercise and then try the bow. Dick Palmer used to sell a draw strength builder based on that concept. Muscle is built when you damage the existing muscle and the body replenishes the tissue.
Probably not the best thing for form but it would build muscles.
Good luck!
Ken....pulling it a time or two when you walk by is ok...and better once you GET to where you need to be. A 'regiment' workout would serve you better with warm ups with a lighter bow.
And, have you killed anything yet with a trad bow?...any big game? Don't let the 'big bow' interfere with sharpening your hunting skills. If you can hunt, the bow makes no different no matter what weight it is.
We already had a guy do that...just started trad archery, then got into heavy bows, became a self imposed instant expert on everything making all sorts of assumptionist posts and to this day has never killed a big game animal. Least he hadn't when he left here a few months ago.
What I'm saying is, don't get so caught up on chasing weight instead of game....after all, its bow season for some of us already.
Ken, 7595s would probably work. Start full length and point weight around what you want your broadheads to be and then either start cutting or add weight to get them to tune. Big Jim just got in some blems. Timely.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
If you can hunt, the bow makes no different no matter what weight it is.
What I'm saying is, don't get so caught up on chasing weight instead of game....after all, its bow season for some of us already.
Great points Terry! :thumbsup:
no i have not taken a big game animal with the bow which is exactly why you will never see me post in a thread discussing broad heads or arrows for deer. i do not plan on hunting with this bow this year just want to shoot it well and enjoy. now who doesn't want to launch a heavy arrow from a heavy bow and watch the target shake??? i can tell you i do enjoy shooting heavy bows and its what i want to do. i will be deer hunting with my Missippi lake longbow very soon and hope to take my first trad deer with it. will also continue to shoot the Mist.
If I may pass along some sage advice given to me years back by archers far more experienced than I:
If you don't keep the shoulder down, you can develop shoulder impingement, even without using a heavy bow. It is important that you fully engage the rhomboids between your shoulder blades to execute proper form. You hold with the rhomboids and not with your arms. In doing so, IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT YOU KEEP YOUR BOW SHOULDER DOWN AND BACK TO PREVENT LONG TERM SHOULDER INJURIES. If the bow is of such weight that your shoulder is forced up and is compressed while at full draw, it is collapsed and is not down and back into the socket. You are then on the fast track towards impingement and long term injuries.
With all that said, I'm of the opinion that it does little good to train with a bow weight beyond your ability to execute safe and proper form. Even when using a bow that you can properly handle, it is a bad idea to shoot to the point that you exhaust your strength so that your shoulder is collapsed. If you intend on increasing your weight, do so in small steps over a period of time. If you are now shooting XX weight with relative ease, next bow you may decide to go up a few pounds. I think it a very bad idea to jump a large chunk of weight at one time as you may very well reduce the number of years that you can shoot a bow if you live to get old.
Not trying to preach, but thought I'd share a few tidbits that has helped me to shoot stickbows over the past 45 years without injury. I am the apple that didn't fall far from my Grandfather's and Father's tree. They both preferred hunting bows in the 60-70 pound range, so I fell into the same and never changed. I think you should shoot whatever weight you prefer, just go wisely and slow.
Best :)
Daddy Bear, good advice. God bless, Scott.
Yes ....great points....you have to draw it properly...PERIOD.
"Duncan Idaho I bet I'm the only nerd on here that knows where your handle is from LOL! probably my favorite character of all time"
LOL...Yes, not many people know who Duncan is...I have read the original series many times over my life, because, it seems the books change as you age. I have also read, all the ones his son wrote, but, did not find them in the same caliber as his father's work.
Ken,
I shoot a 76# Dale Dye recurve on a regular basis. 2219's , 29.5 in length, 175 grain points fly really well. around 640 grain weight. I also can get 2020's to fly well with a lighter point, around 610 grains. Alaskan Grizzly sticks, the heavy ones, sorry don't know the model number, fly well with 145 to 175 points but weigh in around 540 grains. Just some suggestions.
Get one of those Bowfit devices and really work on your back muscles. Pull it past your anchor point to where you feel your elbow hook around. For me, my draw hand ends up behind my ear. You want to feel like you are trying to touch your shoulder blades together.
Again, make sure your front shoulder is locked into the socket and not rotated towards your chest. You want to feel like you are pulling the top of your shoulder down and in.
Actually, it's like shooting a war bow. Look at guys that do it correctly. Good alignment, proper use of back muscles, shoulders locked in.
Make sure your form is good, so you don't hurt yourself, and don't rush it and overtrain, your muscles and joints need some time to build back up. You can do it.