I shoot right handed, with Left Wing feathers...sooooo...I wanna shoot Left Wing bevel Grizzlies...Correct?? :scared:
Yes, they say you want to match the bevel to the feather, right wing - right bevel ...
Yes but right handed or left makes no difference. Just match the feather wing with the broadhead bevel.
Hmm,, my experiement this season is I'm trying RW bevel grizzlys on my LW fletched arrows this season.... the above posts are right but my theory is the bevel will cut in its correct direction upon impact,,,, wondering if anyone else has tried this but we'll see.
Tajue17,
Why would you want the arrow to fight the direction it is already rotating once it hits??? The whole purpose to the head turning as it cuts is to get more penetration?
Do they offer them in a double bevel?
:dunno:
Right wing right bevel-left wing left bevel. It does make a difference very noticeable in my targets once I started doing as Dr. Ashby suggested.
thanks everyone..hello Maxwell! :wavey:
It makes perfect sense to match the bevel to the wing, that is why I started to make my own left wing Hills before left wing Grizzlies were available. However, I cannot say that the deer I shoot, it has made all that much difference. The arrows still fly through, but I think we may be seeing a bit more blood on the ground.
Tajue17, I think TJ is right, if you use a RW bevel with LW feathers, it will hurt penetration, if you just push the broadhead even through a piece of paper you can feel it naturally wanting to rotate with the way it's bevel.
I have to agree with TJ on this one as well.
Bill
I know all about bevels and how they work I have about 40 abowyer BH's here matched to the fletch ,, but I want to see what will happen,,,, we all know opnce on impact a double bevel head stops spinning, its fact and we know this based on the cuts,, so is it hype or will the Broadhead's bevel if Left bevel or right bevel take control of the arrow at that point and still cut into its bevel rotation?
I think it will and if it doesn't it cannot be any worse than a a double bevel which all the double bevel fans will agree its plenty lethal.
I think I should be trying this with wider degree bevel heads like abowyers but the grizz's I got cheap and figure they are the most popular.
we'll see if its hype or not, I hope sunday Morning at first light.
I bought some this year and it's what I will be using,but I did match the bevel just because it's too easy not to. There was a thread not too long ago about Grizzly heads and a few people stated they used them both ways and saw very little difference,but i'm going to stick with same bevel.
It will probably cut in the direction of the bevel, because thats what its supposed to do. It just will not have the advantage of already spinning in the direction of the bevel.
Gilbert
Is there a newer grizzly version out now ? I had heard something that there was a pre sharpened version..160 gr..double bevel...something...anyone know??
TJ,
Friends and I have been using the 160 grain Grizzly for many years when Harry Elburg made them. He only made a right wing bevel and we always used left wing fletch. Never had a problem with penetration on everything from deer, bear and elk. I'm sure matching the bevel to the wing on the fletch is the way to go but dead is dead.
There are new Grizzlies being offered, Carcajou. The company was bought by Zipper Bows and from what I have read they have greatly improved the heads. They are now factory ground by KME so that they only need a little touch up to be hunt ready. There are five weight options in the Grizzly head, plus a 200gn Kodiak which is a little longer than the Grizzly. As far as I know they are only available in single bevel. This is the broadhead I intend to use this year as it has received a lot of praise.
grizzlybroadheads is the website.
QuoteOriginally posted by TOEJAMMER:
TJ,
Friends and I have been using the 160 grain Grizzly for many years when Harry Elburg made them. He only made a right wing bevel and we always used left wing fletch. Never had a problem with penetration on everything from deer, bear and elk. I'm sure matching the bevel to the wing on the fletch is the way to go but dead is dead.
I am positive the left/right combo would kill something I didn't say it wouldn't. I am simply saying that if the arrow is rotating one direction already why (Now that Bill makes both bevels) would you want to reverse the rotation direction?
I have often wondered if under some circumstances or with certain fletching, if cross winging could cause an aerodynamic problem. I use a fairly hard twist with 5 or 5.5 inch feathers and am not sure, but there have been a couple of times that I thought that I could see something different in the shot when cross winging in the wind.
In a perfect world it would probably be nice to match the bevel to the fletching but does it really matter? Jim Abel, who manufactured the heads 2 owners ago, said it did not matter.
Imagine if you spun the arrow shaft as fast as you possibly could then pinched the arrow between 2 fingers to stop the rotation. How much energy would it take to stop the arrow from spinning? Not much. Your two fingers would stop the rotation with ease. I am not a physicist by any stretch of the imagination but I would think that the forward momentum of the arrow would override any centrifugal forces that take place as the arrow spins. The arrow would stop spinning the instant it penetrated the hide anyway. I would think that the bh bevel only comes into play when the bh hits solid material.
thanks for the input! great info!
If right bevel Grizzly matched with left wing fletching was all you had on hand, then so be it. But, if going out of the way to do so, by creating some obscure scientific experiment, that makes no sense at all. The arrow has a limited amount of energy, and to expend any amount of this value by spinning the arrow against the mechanics of cutting rotation, to no purpose, is needless. All the penetration testing has shown many worthwhile techniques and methods to enhance this single bevel cutting, and I do believe matching arrow rotation in flight, to some degree, is a positive to the equation, not a negative.
Best :)
If you read the Ashby reports,it was tested and he found that the single bevels out penetrated double bevels but when the single bevel was used with mismatched fletch,the double bevels penetrated better.
I know people who have killed game with single bevels and mismatched fletch and it isn't that they won't kill and probably will pass through,depending on the setup but why set up an arrow to penetrate less?
I had the understanding from the literature that what you wanted was a helical fletch that rotated the arrow in the same direction that the broadhead bevel wanted to rotate the arrow during penetration. However, I just listened to a 2013 presentation in Texas by Dr. Ed Ashby. In the section on tuning EFOC and UEFOC arrows with Grizzlys he recommended straight fletching with no helical. I was surprised by this, and he did not comment on the reasons why. He did comment though, on a document on tuning these done by Todd Breeding, I believe. He stressed that author used a helical fletch only because he only had a right helical clamp at the time.
Probably because even if it is spinning in the correct direction, it is spinning at a different speed, so it would have to slow down or speed up anyway. He is likely thinking to let the broadhead work at its own pace and direction without adding any hinderance to it. As stated above, this probably will not change anything on a deer shot.
ChuckC
Interesting thread, I want more
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5124/5293413396_4a66e5a6ae.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/gary2va/5293413396/)
I've been using the Grizzly heads for near as long as they've been marketed. Though I've not used the latest incarnation, I've used every generation of the head going back to samples my Dad purchased from Elburg. My second favorite is the Hill, they share a similar profile, fly identical from my bows, work well on game, and have a ton of nostalgic appeal. The deer on the left was arrowed with the Hill, the deer on the right with the Grizzly.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7403/9759590442_0031285a1e.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/gary2va/9759590442/)
Though they both work well, the Elburg head holds up to more use and abuse before giving up the ghost. The ferrule/pin design of the Hill tends to fail long before the Grizzly.
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6085/6127044713_c4c077644d.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/gary2va/6127044713/)
The single bevel design adapted by Elburg is no joke. With proper material and hardness to hold an edge, it is impossible to duplicate the degree of sharpness with a double bevel, for the simple reason that the edge angle on the single bevel is lower and thinner. No matter how sharp, the edge angle on the double bevel is higher and fatter. My single bevels not only shave hair, they shave tiny curls off a single strand of hair.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5126/5258311376_99bb183679.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/gary2va/5258311376/)
As for the rotation, a single bevel walks and cleaves through the cut due to the mechanics of the design. On the Elburg head, it walks and cleave the cut in the direction of the bevel rotation. Hence, the S-shaped of the entrance wounds you see through hide and flesh. This is an exit wound that is cleaved open. Though the upper corner of the cut is clogged with fat, the remainder of the exit wound is wide open and allowed a strong blood flow.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7408/9759801965_3538d96d0a.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/gary2va/9759801965/)
The advantage you see on deer size game is the very reason Harry Elburg invented the Grizzly many decades ago. Elburg stalked deer on foot with a flat bow. His favorite shot was from the deer's blind spot shooting a steep quartering away angle from behind the onside shoulder into the offside shoulder. He designed the Grizzly to maximize bone penetration to increase the odds that the arrow would penetrate the offside shoulder giving you two holes for more damage and blood loss. This is an example of the single bevel rotational design in how it splits and penetrates bone going completely through an offside shoulder when using a low powered longbow.
With all that said, as much a fan I am of the original Grizzly design, I still use the more fragile Hill head for pure joy of nostalgia. I imagine that many have their own personal favorites for a plethora of reasons, regardless how well they may, or may not, stand up to maximum abuse. But, for maximum penetration on large game, a good single bevel can be a solid positive to the overall equation.
Best :)
I love the pics above. I had these and thought I'd share...
53@29 "Hill" style bow from 15 yds using a 515 gr arrow. It passed all the way through.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-6FUAFn1jNRg/UjkffRKZAnI/AAAAAAAAEPI/lesdhtRo0aA/s800/image.jpg)
The "S" shape cut
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-XFE0f1GvtY8/Ujkfg70GJ5I/AAAAAAAAEO8/a_FJemPMmmM/s800/image.jpg)