Newbie needs to know.
the magic dust they use to christen them with.
Performance, durability, smoothness, beauty and attention to detail just off the top of my head. If you can shoot one and you'll find out.
Depends on the bows.
some 200.00 bows are built better then some 800.00 bows jmo it is usually the time each bowyer puts in each bow and how valuable his time he/she thinks there time is worth
I agree with Vermonster and Rob.
You'll pay more for exotic woods, certain name brands, extra work (veneer, inlays, hand rubbed finish, etc.), but paying more doesn't always mean you get more, especially when it comes to a smooth draw, durability, performance, etc.
Don't get me wrong here--some cheap bows are just that--cheap bows--but price doesn't always determine quality in this game.
Chad
Name,ability to choose your own woods, attention to detail,craftsmanship. Same thing as any other custom made to order object. Doesn't really mean it's any better than other bows just yours and one of a kind.
Dang you are getting bows for under $800 :banghead: :D NEW?
BRENT
If its well built the price does not make it better. Like stated above the more frills you want the price goes up. Plenty of $300 bows out there that shoot just as good as $1200 ones.
"better" is the key term here. If you mean will an $800 bow kill a deer any deader than a $200 bow, well no. It most likely will be custom in fit and finish and should have performance advantages(ie. faster, smoother).
Kinda like a Pinto and a Ferrari, both will get you to the party, but which one do you want your friends to see?
Mark
The $800 dollar bow was raised in a better part of town, casts nicer arrows, came from better trees.... :knothead: :knothead: :knothead:
I agree with the previous posts, but also add other factors such as the bowyers location (cost of doing business in certain areas is higher), reputation, and whether it's a one man shop or a higher production shop, will all influence the price.
Are Paul Schafer Silvertip bows worth the money performance-wise?
when it all comes down to the wire they all shoot arrows. :biglaugh: some quicker than others.oh yeah i will tell ya on the 29th of this month when i get my $620 bow.
I have had some pretty bows that come with a price tag, but I am now shooting bows with black, brown, or green glass on them and do not notice any difference in the way they shoot. The last one I had made cost $200, new, with black glass and shoots with the best of them.
I wouldn't feel so bad about getting some scratches on it either.
Yeah you can drive a Pinto in the mud and not feel bad about it- the Ferrai not so much!
what makes it better it the $600 extra the seller gets!!
Most of the time I.M.H.O. is the name. and how much time and effort is put into the making. HOWEVER!! A good shooter can shoot a martin bow just as good as a silver tip.
Look at one, hold one, shoot one and you will know. Im not saying that there are not any good 300.00 bows, there are some bowyers out there that put there heart and sole in a 300.00 bow. but as a general rule. go shoot a 300.00 off the shelf bow and a 1200.00 black widow or acs/cx and see which one you want to take home.
I have to chime in again--some of the things listed--custom made, pick your woods, etc. are options on some bows that cost $300 and less--and IMO there are some that will hold their own against any as far as fit, finish, performance, smooth draw, etc. Not many, but there are some.
As far as holding/shooting one and telling the difference, well......like I said earlier, I've shot some very expensive bows that (to me) weren't worth $5 for my use, and some cheap ones that shot as good as anything.
For the most part, it boils down to one thing--is it worth it to YOU. If you are just getting started, I'd say probably not, because you haven't shot enough to know yet just what you like, what you need, etc. "THE" bow for you might well be one that costs $800+, or the best shooting bow for you might be one you find at a yard sale for $25.
Chad
Look at one, hold one, shoot one and you will know. Im not saying that there are not any good 300.00 bows, there are some bowyers out there that put there heart and sole in a 300.00 bow. but as a general rule. go shoot a 300.00 off the shelf bow and a 1200.00 black widow or acs/cx and see which one you want to take home.
Mostly bragging rights. I have seen people with those high dollar bows and they look good packin em' around but they can't hit a doggone thing with one. I have also seen guys walking around with an ugly cheap bow that are just plain dangerous as they could hit whatever they wanted with it. I think if you can shoot a bow, you will be able to shoot any bow and if you just can't seem to catch on a high dollar bow ain't gonna help. There are exceptions though and a lot depends on if you are looking for aesthetics or functionality.
Rob
I really think the difference is based on the personality type of the consumer (archer or bowhunter). You could have two equally hard-working fellows, each with the same amount of pocket money to spend, but one will be neurologically pre-disposed to purchasing an expensive bow that he really likes, whilst the other will be neurologically pre-disposed to purchasing the cheapest-though-still-adequate bow that he really likes. This debate will go on forever, and there'll always be some of us (myself included) who will be happy to fork-out the big bucks for a custom bow, and there'll always be others who will be happy to spend little and still be able to happily zip arrows through animals. There are often differences in workmanship and performance, but not so much that it negates the most important influence - the bloke holding the thing!
i know what makes a 800.00 bow better .
when you buy it from someone for 300.00 . :bigsmyl:
The most expensive bow I've owned to date (a custom built by a big name bowyer), was the least shooter-friendly bow I've shot. In all fairness it could have just been a lousy personal fit, as this guy's bows are very popular. Just the same...
The next most costly custom I've had made, my Prairie Swift, shoots like a dream. It's smooth, fast, and gorgeous. It's everything I expected for the money. Kota Bows are true customs, built by hand one at a time to the customer's specs. To me, that justified the cost.
My three mid-priced Chek-Mates all shoot and perform great. Pretty much the equal of my Swift but each cost a couple hundred bucks less. I've heard CM's described as "semi-custom", or production bows built to order. Works fine for me, I love em'.
Some, like the Great Plains Swift, kind of make me scratch my head. How it can cost as much as it does when like Chek-Mates, it's essentially a production bow made to order, is a mystery to me. Would love to have one, but I won't lay down nearly $800 for it.
I've been sorely tempted to buy a Great Tree Volcano from 3R, just to see how a lower cost production bow stacks up.
The point? I guess that so far in my fairly limited experience, the price of a bow doesn't always correlate with quality and performance...
The proof for me is always in the shooting.I really could care less about exotic woods other than to get some extra weight in a riser.A Quinn stallion can shoot just as well to me as any more costly eyecandy I have run across.The fact the grip fits me so well offsets the looks of the others for me.I buy bows by how they fit and how they shoot.If I don't like the color I can always spray paint them. If they shoot the way I want I am not concerned much with the cost.I look at the cost of a bow as just a small part of my hunting investment and I am worth it. :)
Just try before you buy whenever you can.
620 dollars for a silvertip is cheap IMHO. Get some little extras and you wont be sorry.
break down that 800 dollars into 20 years of service life. Not that a 300 wont last that long. It is a personal preference that is all.
I am the cheapest person you will meet I promise, ask my wife. BUT when it comes to equipment such as bows, and binoculars, for the most part you get what you pay for period. 95% of the time if I had to bet which bow will tear up first, I will bet on that 300 dollar bow. Which leads me to paying out another 300 dollars.
I do not have alot of bows like I said I am cheap. 1 silvertip (plain jane with checkered grip, FF string, camo limbs), one longbow(100. dollars bought 10 years ago works great! go figure?)
Lastly as has been said/ is a 800 dollar bow gonna make you shoot better?? ABSOLUTLY NOT! there aint no magic spells that make your arrow a meat seeking missle coming off an 800 dollar bow as opposed to a 300 dollar bow.
J
QuoteI've heard CM's described as "semi-custom", or production bows built to order.
Actually Marc (the bowyer for CM) calls them "production bows with options"--and when you get right down to it, that's the best you can get with any "custom" bow. Nobody designs a bow and builds a new form every time a new customer orders. Every bowyer uses the same forms/designs over and over and over again. You may get to pick length, woods, grip options, draw weight, etc.--but it's still coming off the same form as the last customer's bow, as will the next customer's--hence Marc's "production bows with options" comment. Very accurate IMO.
Ben makes a good point as well--I've known folks that had some sort of brain block and seemed convinced they couldn't shoot a "cheap" bow as well. Put a broomstick with a baleing wire string in their hands, if you could convince them it was a $1,000 custom they would shoot the lights out with it. Put a $2,000 bow in their hands, but convince them it was a $25 yard sale bow, they couldn't hit a barn from the inside with it. On the flip side, I know a fellow that got the biggest kick ever by whipping up on folks at tournaments with his $25 (used) Bear "Black Bear"--butt ugly and cheap, but he sure could shoot it--better than any custom he every owned or shot.
It's been said many times--archery is a very mental sport--and it's a fact.
Chad
Bragging rights for sure. I had a friend who had some top notch cocker spaniel puppies he wanted to sell quickly so he put them in the classifieds for $50 each. Didn't even get a call about them. On a whim he put the same ad in the paper the following week listing the same puppies at $450 each, all were sold the same day the paper came out.
Bottom line is people equate price with quality and they don't want a $50 dog or bow.
Great point Eric! I've heard of the exact same thing happening more than once. One particular archery dealer did that with a certain bow--had them priced cheap, seldom ever sold one. Jacked the price up, couldn't get them fast enough.
Another archery vendor did it with some arrow shafts, in one weekend! Had them out priced cheap, they didn't sell. Jacked up the price on Sunday, sold out.
A local guy did that with an old game box full of rusty tools. Had them marked something like 50 cents each, they sat there for months outside a store. Marked them up to either $5 or $10 each, sold out in no time.
People are strange........
Chad
I've never spent over $200 on a trad bow. Having never had the opportunity to shoot a custom, I can't quantify the difference.
All I know is that you have to be comfortible and confident in what you shoot. Whether it takes a selfbow or a $1500 custom bow to achieve this is up to the desceretion of each individual shooter.
SO far my favorite bow of all time has been a Root Gamemaster I bought for around $50. The bow is neither pretty nor what I would call smooth but I shoot extreamly well with it.
I would venture to say that most of the equipment we use today is superior to what Howard Hill used Bows, arrows, bowstrings, camo ,shoes and the list goes on, I still can,t hit six dimes in a row out of the air or put all my arrows in my quiver in a small square hay bale at 100 yards, I,d say find a bow that one can afford and that fits and lets all see if we can catch him. I,m still working one one dime.
Like mentioned previously, I think it comes down you having a SAY in what woods are used in the manufacturing and every last detail of the bow. Do they shoot better...I guess. I think the it comes down to the person behind the bow. If the arrow your shooting off the bow isn't straight it doesn't matter if the bow cost $1000 or $200. A friend of mine who trained for the Olympics shoots one of Samicks just as good as his personal bow.
OK I don't say much around here, but I'd would like to add my 2 cents. I don't think it's bragging rights. I have not owned hundreds of traditional bows like many around here, but I have shoot most manufactures and independant bowyers bows. Here is my opinion on cheap bows. They are what they are, and they are usually cheap. A low end bow usually has some aspect about it that I don't like. It may be hand shock, noise, grip, poor finish or a slug (slow than normal arrow flight)ETC, ETC. With a high end bow most of these are not noticable. Now not all high end bows perform the same either. I have noticed inconsistancies in many of the top bowyers products. You can often take two bows that were created = and one will out perform the other, and I think this is why the trading blanket stays so busy around here:) I love black widow bows in any model, but there are some of them I shot that I wouldn't give you a nickel for, and others that I try to add to my collection. It often baffles me how two exact same bows (same limb core etc) can vary in performance. My best advice to you, is try before you buy, and shoot what suits you no matter what the price. Confidence is something that should be built, not bought!
It really comes down to the person buying the bow; I respect each decision rather you buy cheap or go the best but as for me I have killed plenty of deer with my cheap Bear Kodiak {250.00 used} and wouldn't trade it for all the customs bows made simply because I know what I can do with that bow in hand;
BUT if a person wants to spend his/her money for a custom made bow for whatever price and that bow makes them proud then it really don't matter what anyone else thinks;
All I can say is that I am able to buy alot of arrows and broadheads for the difference in price
..... :jumper:
Not all expensive bows are bows I like, but USUALLY they are made well, from a well thought out design.
Certainly, a basement bowyer might sell a bow for $200 that is an awesome shooter. But those "diamonds in the rough" are few and far between. There are lots of horror stories coming out of those basements...
I would never, ever, look down my nose at someones economical bow, but I know that I can't build one to suit me, so I will pay the man with the skills.
Not all of them offer bows in the $300 price range, but you can get a GREAT bow for WAY less than $800 from very experienced, well established bowyers/businesses such as:
Navajo--in business for at least 12-15 years
Black Forrest (Mike Treadaway)--been in business for around 10 years--probably longer
Chek-Mate (Marc Moriez)--Chek-Mate has been going strong for about 35 years, Marc has been with them for the last 20 or so.
Martin Archery--been around for years and years, still has some pretty good bows for well under $800
Bob Lee--a legend in the sport, he also has bows for well under $800. I just looked at his site, and he has a sale going on with bows starting at $300.
And I'm sure there's several others--those are the first that come to mind. I wasn't talking about guys working out of their basement or garage--nothing against them, as everyone has to start somewhere, and not everyone can start out with a full-blown shop--but if you do your homework, you can find a great bow in most any price range from a well established bowyer.
It may not come down to bragging rights for all, but it does for some. I've seen at least one instance of a company making bows for different dealers, and some dealers put different names on the bows and sell them for a lot more. One fellow I saw wouldn't give the bow with the cheaper price/brand name on it a second look, but loved the one he paid more money for with the "big" name on it--and it's the EXACT SAME BOW--same bowyer, off the same form, with the same woods, etc.--just a different name written on it.
Don't get me wrong here--I have nothing at all against the more expensive bows, and have shot several that I really liked. I've also shot cheap bows that were, IMO, junk. My point is simple--paying more doesn't always mean you get more for your money. Some cheap bows are just that--cheap bows. I've seen crappy ones with big price tags too--poor finish, poor design, poor performance.
A feller needs to do his homework and get a little bit of education towards what he is looking at before he makes a purchase--you aren't doing yourself any favors judging them by price tags alone.
Some of the cheaper bows even have a better warranty. Most of the companies that don't charge as much simply don't have as much overhead to cover--their shop isn't as big or fancy, they don't spend a ton on advertising (CM doesn't spend anything on ads, catalogs, etc.), cost of living is better where they live, they choose to live a simpler lifestyle, they do a lot/all of the work themselves rather than just run the show, etc. NONE of that factors directly into the quality of a bow, but it certainly does factor into the price you pay for it.
Picking up one vs. the other is not a comparison, except in personal preferances. Compare materials, draw force curve, performance, durability, warranty, customer service, design, company longevity (you don't normally stay in business very long if you consistently put out junk and/or don't take care of customers), etc. etc. etc. Those are things you can actually see, that won't be biased by personal preferances, labels, or price tags.
After all that, get out to some different tournaments and take notes. See what the better shooters are using. You'll find some that are shooting very expensive bows, some shooting cheaper bows, some shooting homemade bows. The proof is in the results, not opinions. Price doesn't make a bow shoot--the monkey behind it does.
Chad
Well said! :thumbsup:
I think the biggest contributor to price in high end bows is the reputation of the bowyer. Other factors that contribute to a high price are design, materials used, appointments, and workmanship. I've shot expensive bows ($600 and up) that I would'nt have given $200 for. I've shot cheap bows that were plain junk also. IMO there are more bows available in the mid price range ($400 - $600) that are probably the best value available. I've shot several $400 bows that performed almost as well as anything available at any price. There are some high end bows that IMO are the best you can get, but truth be known the performance advantages are probably not worth the price they bring. I own a good shooting bow that is what I would consider a mid-priced bow. I have another that cost twice as much. With out a doubt the higher priced bow is the better of the two, but IMO it is not "twice as good" and certainly does'nt make me "twice the shooter".
Alot of folks don't know that Chekmate makes alot of bows for other "custom" bowyers...All good though, 'cause you are still getting a well made , good shooting bow. :) :)
As to what Eric and LBR said on p. 2, I recall in an economics class I took in college the professor talked about "Giffen Goods." These were items that sold better the more expensive they were priced. He used the example of diamonds, or even certain blue jeans or other name-brand clothing items that actually garnered more sales when they were priced higher than the competition. Seems like that concept would at least have some application here.
One economist's definition of a Giffen good (just looked it up) was: a good that experiences increased demand for when the price rises and decreased demand for when the price falls. Mainly a theoretical concept, but there have arguably been goods with this property.
Others add the word 'inferior good' to the equation. I wouldn't do so in this case, but it would seem that some bowhunting items (including certain bows, broadheads and camouflage) might be labeled a Giffen good. And definitely the example with the cocker spaniel pups fits the idea.
As others have said, try before you buy. There are still a lot of guys killing lots of game with old Bear bows.
There is a world of difference in a Bear or Martin that you may find at Cabelas for $300-$600 and a top of the line custom bow from a good bowyer. Ive built enough bows to understand(Shapeshifter can also testify to this) that these production line bows which typically consist of two thick (.050-.070") pieces of black glass, one or two paralells of maple actionwood for a core and a piece of engineered laminated wood for a handle and thats it. I could build a bow like this in 6-8 hours from ,scratch. Now I prefer to build three piece bows with 7-8 limb lams that I cut and grind to +- .005" of my target thickness including expensive carbon lams, decorative veneers, flaired two wood risers, accent stripes, exotic hardwoods, multiple butt, tip, belly and back handle overlays, snake skins, custom fit grips ect. I have blown up several sets of limbs figuring out a design that works and built and rebuilt several forms. It takes about 30 hrs for me to complete a bow like described. It will out perform most production bows, is quiet, and pleasant to shoot but I do it for fun and to give them to my friends. If I were to sell one for $800 thats less $200 bucks materials it equates $20/hour labor less development time and testing costs. Now the lower cost production bows say would sell for $400 less $70 materials devided by six hours equals $55 per hour. I understand how Bob Morrison gets $1200 for a bow and sells a few each day as do many other top end bowyers. They are not getting rich, in fact it is a tough way to make a living but the products are night and day diferent from production bows. Performance wise the production models are near bullet proof but the materials are not being pushed to the "envelope" which will make them very reliable but they will never perform like an Adcock or Border or Black Swan ect. When a bowyer develops a better performing bow there are lots of costs they have to overcome, the same goes for a prettier bow. You get what you pay for but I dont think there is any "gouging" going in traditional bow sales. The good thing is there is a model that will suit any taste/ pocket book and they keep improving.
Definitely don't buy a bow you can't shoot for a week. "New bow syndrome" takes a few days to clear and you need to take the time to make sure this is gonna be good for you in the long run. It will be harder to justify bow number two, with a bad number 1 still around the house. But get started now--'cause bow number 22 is far easier to justify. :biglaugh:
For what it is worth I have a few bows and my go to bow is still an old Damon Howett recurve 55@ 28".That bow is like a part of my body.I just look at what I want hit and it happens.No thinking on my part.
Truly?? Whether or not you can afford one...I have both. If I don't practice I suck with both, if I practice I can shoot either just as well. I shot 150.00, 85# longbow for 10 years. Now I shoot a Howard Hill and will probably never hunt with anything else. I'll be honest when I tell you the Hill is great, but it is not any smoother than my ol' cheap date. Ya just gotta dance with the one that brung ya'.
-Hillbilly
I must add that I killed lots and lots of game with a bright red fiberglass bow with a white rubber handle that I bought from my cousin for a dollar when I was 5... I shot that bow until I was like 13. The finest investment I ever made.
-Hillbilly
$800 bow price
$200 Material
$ 80 Fed Excise Tax
$ 15 Liability Insurance
These are the hard costs you can see. Leaving us with $505.00 Now how about some sand paper and finish to put on this bow? Lets just leave it as materials. $505 / 30 hrs is $16.80
You can break down all the other stuff.
Electric. For All of your sanders, saws, lights, heating, cooling. Not Free
Work shop or garage. Not Free
Insurance on the building. Not Free
Limbs miss weight 12# That will be another
$100 Material + Labor + all the other stuff again.
They also quit giving away power equipment, They are no longer Free. That will probably come out of my $16/ hr.
Bob
Kinda like the ole farmer who won $1M in the lottery. A TV reporter asked him what he was going to do now that he'd just won a million bucks. The ole farmer answered;
"Reckon I'll just keep farming till it's gone."
Geeez... Some of you guys act like custom bows oughta be given away or something. I ain't got talent enough to carve a toothpick out of an osage twig. But I've got sense enough to recognize that the high end custom bows out there cost what they do for a reason. And I'll gladly pay it because they provide what I don't have the skills to build on my own. I think Bob Morrison laid it out pretty well in his post. Even the best custom bowyers out there are workin dirt cheap on the hour.
I just made my first set of cedar arrows. They turned out pretty good but didn't save me much over having them built. (more if you count the jigs etc) Break it down and the arrow builders aren't making much per set.
I know with bows it can't be much different. I think the biggest issue is the design. Some bows are designed better. (more efficient) Obviously wood choices make a difference in prices.
Now some manufacturers make many bows exactly the same so they can buy in bulk and mass produce a close to identical bow for less. Bear bows are an example Fred Bear pioneered this in the early days of Bear Archery. Can't complain with bear bows durablity and shootability. But its just not a custom bow.
If your getting started I would recommned getting something used acually. This will get you started and give you time to shoot some other bows and decide what you like.
I think Bob put it just about the way it is, I love to build bows but have to work at another job to afford to build bows to sell. You aren't getting rich building bows, I can make twice as much doing construction work. You have to enjoy building a bow and putting a part of yourself into each one, then selling it to keep the door open, or you wouldn't continue to do it.
The way I see it life is to short to shoot an ugly bow!!
Bob, Yep, sometimes I wonder why we get up and put on our boots on in the morning.
Here are some possible alternative sports for those who find archery equipment way too expensive:
Marbles
Jacks
Jumprope
hacky sack
frisbee
and of course Yo-yos
All excellent alternatives to over priced archery equipment. Count on an extra string for those yo-yos every now and then though. It's a rip off for sure, but the yo-yos won't work worth a darn with a busted string. I'd suggest learning to make your own from woven cob webs or maybe dryer lint.
:) :rolleyes: :banghead:
Sorry,...I've been in the shop since 6am (14 1/2 hours)working my minimum wage archery job and my attitude is not what it could be.
David
You put your boots on cause you darn well know you make something that can't be mass-produced AND you prolly won't have a lead paint recall!
I'm with Bob!
You are paying for the bowyers time and craftsmenship plus expenses. I have two of Bob's customs and have not thought twice about feeling overcharged for the bows they are very fine built bows. Do customs make you a better shot?? Not anymore than having a bow make someone a bowhunter.
I should've added to my economics lesson a personal aside:
I don't know how any traditional bowmaker makes a real living doing it. The time and effort and craftsmanship involved are extensive. So while there may be a 'Giffen Good' effect when prices go up, that's not to say that the bowyer's time is not worth that much...especially given what we pay people of many other professions who may have far less talent...
Bob-
I think you're being too generous with your figures. If you sat down & really got serious you're probably making a lot less than 16 bucks an hour!
You get what you pay for. If you're paying $200 for a new bow it's probably mass produced in Korea. I talked to a buddy that just got home from chasing speed goats with his Impalla recurve. He bought it new for right about $200. If he has a question or problem, who does he talk to? Does he call someone in Korea? I had a question about my Cougar & called Bob. It was during hunting season & he acted like he'd talk all day if I needed to. That's what makes a bow worth $800 to me.
I've watched a few good bowyers in their shops building bows. I flat out left when they started grinding fiberglass...ain't nuff money in the world to do that...especially day in and out.
Dakota...you're right about Bob's estimates..if he counted the hours he spent on his butt driving to shoots all over kingdom come, booth fees, gas, food, etc... that has to cost a pretty penny as advertising goes... then there is the time spent haglin with customers and answering a myriad of questions on phone and email. I know...bob and others have done it for me. (thanks guys!)
Reality differs as stated. I liked the comments earlier on about "production bows w/ options".
All the freakin hand work some of our bowyer sponsors put in is horrendously high!! Others use CNC to crank out risers.. nothing wrong with either approach....but I LIKE handbuilt stuff!
Bob's built me a sweet bow. He knows, I don't value all sorts of stuff on my bow... contrasting stripes etc...love to look at it, but I'd rather have a sweet burly piece of grained wood riser...now that is BEAUTIFUL to me...and he delivered.
Same as folk's furniture in the house. Wallpaper, wardrobe. What we drive. We pay to suit our tastes.
As for performance: I did find that the less expensive bows ended up being less forgiving and more "shocky" to my hand and shooting form...so I didn't buy them. And yet, guy named Peckerwood had this multi-colored short recurve at B-more the other year that was as sweet a drawing and shooting bow I ever shot! He's a fine carpenter and furniture builder so he loves workign w/ wood and it shows... but he's not a full time bowyer...but that ONE I shot was SWEET! Go figure!
I had great advice from others...borrowed a ole Bear from a buddy and shot it to get started and then shot and shot and shot bows at many, many shoots and any shop that had em, till I was sick of it... wrote down names of bows I liked most and shot then again the next year...then started making a few purchases...
Over time, as my form settled in and arthritis took over, some desires changed and I've changed bows here and there... mostly looking for a freakin grip that fit! That's my cranky self. Shot mag handguns for too many years so I believe hand fit in grip is critical to consistent shooting.
Guys who will build to fit my paw..get my order. And then sometimes, some custom guys just want to build stuff THEIR way and no matter what you say, you get something different than ordered.
That is why there is a lot of bows for sale used... that and some folks just LIKE trying new stuff. And we who've bought them used bows say "THANKS!" :)
Buy what you can afford. What's that saying?"Be wary of the man with one gun (bow) for he likely shoots it well." ;)
But keep exploring w/ an open mind. Refinements do show up as costs go up, depending on your needs and wants.
Personally I have not found 1 of these 300-600 dollar bows that has been able to compare performance to any of the Morrison bows I have shot.There is a difference !!!!!
I don't know of any new bows that sell for $200 that are worth a darn, unless you are talking about a kid's or beginner bow. Production bows by companies like Bear and Martin start at $400+. The only decent performing bow you are going to find for $300 or less is a USED bow.
Fine finishes (translated as "time") and fine woods cost money. Other factors like design, knowledge, reliability, customer service, etc. also require dollars and differentiate the bows. When you figure out what you, really, really need (want)in a bow, the price is of relatively little consequence when you look at the use you will get from it.
If the bow doesn't fit you or your needs, whatever you paid is wasted. If it meets all of your needs and "fits" YOU, then it will be worth whatever price you pay.
QuoteOriginally posted by HARL:
Personally I have not found 1 of these 300-600 dollar bows that has been able to compare performance to any of the Morrison bows I have shot.There is a difference !!!!!
shoot one of voodoofire1's bows and you'll probably change your mind . in all honesty !
I've had inexpensive and expensive bows. My most important consideration is how a bow shoots. So far my favorite is a $200 metal handled recurve.
Every bowyer is going to defend the price they charge, but the simple fact is, if they weren't making money, they wouldn't be in buisness.
A bow is worth what ever someone is willing to pay. It is usually influenced by reputation, availablty and longjevity! There are alot of bowyers that come and go in this very compeditive market. I have owned some great cheap bows and some lowsey expensive ones and vice versa. The only thing I now to do is to try them until you find one that works for you. Besides searching is half the fun!lol. Leonard.
Brandon, Your right about the hidden costs. And then there is the screwup that you end up tossing the whole bow..
And then once in a while you get someone that no amount of money is worth messing with. Bottom line is if your selling bows and not paying Fed Excise Tax or have Liability Insurance or paying your state sales tax. Your not doing anybody any good. Our Countries widelife, Your Customers. Some countries you go to prison for Tax evasion. And what do you tell your buddy you just gave a bow you built for free, if the string you built breaks and puts an eye out. You are Liable and just messed up the rest of his life, Good friend or not you probably should look into a lawyer. That seem to be the American way anymore. If my price is too high There are a lot of good bowyer out there that do all the right and legal things to be in business, Pick one. If in the future you have to have some major surgery, find a surgeon that doesn't carry Malpractice insurance, you will save enough to take a couple out of state hunts......... if everthing goes right...
If you can't tell the difference between a $200 bow and an $800 (or more) bow by shooting it... then buy the $200 bow. For those of you who can... I hope I'm as good as you someday.
QuoteOriginally posted by NightHawk:
Every bowyer is going to defend the price they charge, but the simple fact is, if they weren't making money, they wouldn't be in buisness.
Respectfully, I call bull$hit.
Custom bow manufacturers are makers of functional works of art. We live in an age of consumerism (i.e. the Wal-Mart syndrome) where we expect high quality to come at low-cost. That can exist only because somebody is getting paid LESS than they should be (and often times, that DOES mean millions of poor souls in China are working 16+ hours for $3/day so we can get used to the idea of "cheap stuff"... with lead paint.)
I'm also in the custom-manufacturing business, and unfortunately I'm never gonna get rich doing this. I do it because I have a need to "create" with my mind, and hands; because of a sense of fulfillment at finishing a work of art which lights up the eyes of its new owner, and which will likely become an heirloom to their children. Other people don't feel this drive as strongly; you're lucky, I guess. Sure, I wish I was paid more, but I'm not about to leave my job for a better-paying one doing something un-creative.
When disregarding material costs, the time and effort it takes to build a one-of-a-kind hand-made product means you can't cut corners like on an assembly-line. That also means you spend alot more time attending to details in finishing that would get overlooked in something that's NOT custom-made.
Certainly assembly lines have their place: It's important to maximize well-designed components - duplicating them wherever possible. But when producing something to "fit" individual customers (especially something as personal as a bow!) it's often hard to "re-use" elements without altering the total design negatively.
Kudos to the custom bow manufacturers who have found ways to speed the production process. Often it's not possible.
(My $0.02 ... minus inflation rates... minus overhead... minus etc. etc. = $0.003 :( )
QuoteOriginally posted by Bob Morrison:
And then once in a while you get someone that no amount of money is worth messing with.
Heh! We call these people, "Customer Number 11". You know: the type that always sends back the first bottle of wine? For every ten excellent customers... there's always one that will not be pleased.
I get to shoot bows of many values,and with that in mind there is a diference between bows. Some bows at lower prices are a very good bow,and great shooters for the money while others are questionable.
Often a new bowyer will be building a very good design but lacks the finishing toutches that set it apart from the high dollar bow. Some are making a bow that could easily sell for much more. For the bow to sell at a higher price it has to be for reasons. Things we will accept in a 2 or 3 hundred dollar bow are not aceptable at all as the price goes up.
There is more to it than a reliable good shooting bow for it to demand a higher price tag and continue to sell at that price.
I realy wonder how many shooters that put down the high end bows think that 2 or 3 hundred dollar bow is realy worth 6 or 8 hundred? If they had to choose between Bobs bows or their $200.dollar bow and both were priced the same what one would they pick? Bobs of course.
I have shot expensive bows that were not up to the price they sold for and others that were a steal for the price. When we get up in price we can expect to see a flawless bow, that shoots quiet, with good performance, and no signs of poor craftsmanship or mistakes.
Some will comand a high price because they have a famous name attached to them and are just nasty to shoot, while others are associated with a bowyer that has established a name for quality bows.
You realy need to sample the good stuff before you decide on how much a bow is worth, don't just blindly defend that good deal because it works for you. Test drive a few high end bows and see if they shoot and feel diferent. How do they compare to the bargain in looks,finish, details. What is the draw curve like? Is it up there in the performance range, hand shock? noise?quality of materials?
Sure they all shoot an arrow, and will kill a deer,but there should be a diference between $200 and $800. In most cases the diference is very easy to see hear and feel.If it is not then it isn't the bow for you.
I could make a bow and ask $800.00 for it, but it would never sell because it would not be worth $200.00 . The price tag does not guarantee a good bow, but it should and usualy does when it is from an established bowyer.
A good indication of the quality is usualy the waiting list. Not the time, but the number of bows ahead of you. A 1 year wait and only 3 bows ahead is not a good indicator, but 50 bows ahead tells you that there are a lot of people that think the wait is worth while, and the bow is a good one.It usualy is.
As new bowyers become known for good bows the wait gets longer, and usualy the prices increase.
The area between these prices{$200.00 an$800.00} is where there are some very good bows being made from not so well known bowyers.Some of these bows are as good as bows costing lots more. That 450 to 550 dollar range has some good deals in it and only lack in name association. I have not seen any $200 dollar bows that could demand a price of $800.There is a diference, and yes you pay for it.
If you want an extra 10 FPS, it costs. Someone has to pay for all that firewood it took to get the design right. There are risks associated with higher performance, and these are in the posibility of a warranty claim. As performance increases the chance of failure must also increase. The closer to the edge we get the more risk there is.
A 160 FPS bow is not risky for the bowyer to make compared to a 190 but it will not sell. We want something for the $ and we get it.
Getting older and worn out,that extra fps can be used to drop draw weight and still have the same performance you like without the draw weight. This comes with a price tag.
If you are in the Edmonton area let me know and you can test some of the "good stuff" then decide for yourself if there is a diference. The review bows are always available for a test drive.
Now I have to get out and put a new cam in my $800.00 truck today so I can go hunting. Is there a diference between a truck that costs $800 and $40,000? Not as good looking,effecient, reliable,but it works for me.Even though it is costing me a weekend out It is a price a chose to live with allong with its draw backs.
At some point you will pick up a bow that just gives you that feeling of "wow" the first time you shoot it. I realy doubt it will have a $200.00 price tag but I bet it will have a custom bowyers name on it.
Pete
Gonna stay out of this one after my first post but Allan there is too funny!
He hit the nail on the head though, I cant agree more. When you are doing fairly custom work YOU WILL NEVER GET PAID WHAT IT IS WORTH! period. All the time and effort involved will be lost money.
And in the end you always get that one customer who has never made a bow in their lives that all of a sudden knows more than you and can tell you every mistake you made on his bow. LOL it can drive ya nuts.
Bottom line is you get what you pay for 95% of the time.
Later
J
There's a lot that goes into being a custom bowyer aside from taking $100.00 worth of materials and turning it into an $800.00 bow for a fabulous profit. I'd recommend anyone who wants to get rich doing that to go ahead and give it a whirl. This is the American Dream. The American Dream, however, is usually a bit more complicated than it seems at first glance and costs a bit more than we often think. How much does it cost to turn $100.00 bow into an $800.00 paycheck? Just a little time and money.... let's think about exactly what kind of time and money we might be talking about. I'll list some of the things that determine how much, if any profit is made off that $800.00 bow.
* Raw Material costs
* Time spent answering phones, responding to
* Office supplies (printer, paper, business cards, invoice forms, receipts, etc.)
* questions, customer service
* Time spent purchasing, research and development
* Shop space
* Electricity
* Phone Bill
* Insurance
* Disposables like abrasives, drill bits, etc,
* glues, finishes, shop towels, etc.
* Accepting credit cards takes 3% off the top
* Equipment depreciation
* Marketing and advertising, show fees, etc.
* Website and hosting fees
* Waste
* Deals that go south (writing off bad debt from non-paying customers)
etc.
etc.
etc.
etc.
etc.
And to make things all the more interesting..... there's never a sure paycheck and you can lose everything at any given time due to circumstances beyond your control.
Most people think in terms of dollars an hour, but in business it just doesn't work that way. You don't have an assured minimum paycheck. You are accepting all the risk. You pay all your own social security. There's no pension plan, no dental, no medical, no 401K. And if sales suddenly drop off, you are still stuck with all the same bills - you just have no income.
So a guy has $100.00 in materials into a bow. And we think it's insane that he sells it for $800.00 making what we think of as a $700.00 profit. We don't think about the time invested in that bow or figure in the waste or depreciation of equipment or elecricity or insurance or any of the rest of the stuff that is necessary to keep a business alive.
Some of the costs are elastic, increasing and decreasing with sales and production. Some are fixed, regardless of sales or production. You have to be able to make AND sell enough to meet costs, including what you can afford to pay yourself but you have limits to how much you can make, too, so you have to price accordingly. If you could make and sell a thousand bows a month, you might do very well with a net profit of $10.00 per bow. If, however, you can only make and sell 10 bows a month, you'll need a lot more than a $10.00 net profit per bow if you want to eat something that month.
I don't know any rich bowyers. There are a lot of bowyers, but it's tough for all of them. There are only so many customers and, frankly, I don't think there are enough to go around and I'll bet the number of bowyers closing doors in 2008 will be close to the number of bowyers opening doors in 2007.
And if we don't support them, - they won't be there because the market won't support their enterprises and they'll move on to more profitable things, (just about anything else they can do would be more profitable).
Strictly speaking, as a tool, bows aren't that much different functionally.
The reason I buy custom bows is to get something that artistically appeals to me and that no one else in the world has, while at the same time making sure that it was built for my grip, draw length and pounds of pull at that length.
Again, I tend to buy things that no one else has, but many wish they did.
Well put Papa Bull. Some of the bowyers that will leave will have 10,15 20 years or more experience as bowyers and most not have anyone taking over the business. So that experiance is all lost and you get to start all over again training the new bowyer with his hits and misses.
Black Widow Archery has been in business for 20+ years and will be around for at least another 20, because the business is being handed down (Not given to) to dedicated employees that will continue to have a good business plan because of there work ethics and leadership they have received over the years from Mr. Ken Beck. Team work,WE, not and I or me business.
We are going to lose some good bowyers and get some not so good in replacement.
I believe in supporting the ma and pa stores and the little man cause if we dont they will soon be all gone , And i have yet to see any archery equipment worth a hoot at walmart .
QuoteOriginally posted by Bob Morrison:
We are going to lose some good bowyers and get some not so good in replacement.
Why not be postive and say were going to lose some good bowyers and get some good ones in replacement ? sure there are bad bowyers going to come and go just as in anything else . mechanics , lawyers .doctors and so on . I think what really makes a good bowyer is one that puts his or her heart into there work . when they get to the point where they say oh its just another bow order then there loseing the drive that got them there . also quality materials in a bow is a key componet I believe. most good bowyers are to me like artist painting pictures instead of canvas and paint its wood and glass and glue . as far as counting the electric, tools , insurance , etc. that really isnt in the answer for the thread because doesnt a bad bowyer have the same overhead and bills as does the most skilled bowyer out there ???
All I can say is my 200 dollar bow is better than any 800 - 1000 dollar bow, because I built it myself to my specifications.
Many of these high profile bowyers, never work on a bow but have people that produce the bows for them. I'm not bgoing to get into a peeing match with anyone over the cost of a bow, if you like it and want to pay 800 dollars for it, more power to you, it's not for me. I'd rather spend that 800 dollars and teach myself how to make a bow and have something to truely show for it.
I believe in the old axiam Give a man a fish and he will eat for today, teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime"
In my opinonn there are'nt many truely custom bows anymore, most are mass produced in one way or another
Nighthawk, I think that's great. Congratulations.
Turns out that if I tried to make a $200 bow, it would probably cost me much more than the $800 bow.
I'd have to buy saws, sanders, hot box/press/form, finishing sprayers. My leisure time is worth A LOT to me, figuring that in and the bows I'd screw up, and I'm sure I could buy many of those $800 bows.
Brandon Stahl and Jim Neaves are two guys that make their bows custom..those are the last two I bought from. Great Experience with both. Brandon would be a fine example of a GREAT new bowyer coming on the scene.
When you look at the research and developement most bowyers put into their craft , most , mind you deserve what they can get, most do it for the passion also . I always ask a bowyer what is you're favorite bow? :) Thats the one I order 9 out 10 times...my 2cents here is some trad archers and bowhunters are just CHEAP! And you know who you are, so I say if ya dont want custom , built one yourself. Shop garage sales, but Ive had cheap bows and believe me every bowhunter should have atleast one custom bow built just for him or her :) once...take ur time shoot several , most bowyers worth their salt will send ya a bow to test drive...bowyers craft to me is so impressive to me...good luck....their are several bows Id pay alot more than 800 bucks for too.... :)
bayoulongbowman, the only problem with the test drive scenerio is, in my personal experience, the test drive bow and the bow I get never seem to shoot the same. My recommendation would be a bit different; only buy a bow you can shoot numerous arrows through before buying. In other words, try before you buy.
Having said that, my main shooting bow is one I bought only because it overwhelmed me with its beauty. I didn't try it first. It turns out I really lucked out because it is also a very fine shooter (best I've ever owned) :)
I also think that if you are going to have a custom bow made for you, something like a Morrison or Fedora is the way to go because these people stand on their reputations and are going to make sure you are happy.
Anyway, just my 1/2 cents worth.
Dave in Ft. Collins, CO
Last thing I'm going to say on this...
Some people can never be satisfied, and the more you deal with them you will find out your beating your head against a wall. There are some good bowyers coming up, just think how far ahead of the other up and coming they would be if they had started, Got with someone with 20 years experience??????? and took over ????????????????????
I suspect that one point that we can all agree on is that bowyers aren't in the business planning to make a few million.
For all of you bowyers, I, for one, am sure glad that you are doing what you do.
Amen Redfish, Amen.
Bayou,
Good point about the cost of development. The other side of that coin is that it's a whole lot easier to sell a cheap bow if you are one of the guys who takes another bowyers work and just copies it. You have a guy who has the talent and spends his time and money to develop a superior product, and then another no talent walks in and takes it. Development costs real money. It's no different than someone like Bob walking in and stealing 8-10 thousand dollars from another bowyer. I imagine if Bob did that he could afford to sell bows a little cheaper too LOL. The sad fact though is that people's honest hard work gets stolen every day, and the people who do it get rewarded by those who are perfectly happy to get a deal on stolen goods. That's right, stolen goods. For all the talk of ethics in this community, it sure is easy for some to put that aside to save a buck. That "savings" is coming out of the pockets of people who just want to make a living doing something they love. It's not coming out of GM's or IBM's pocket.
Not every inexpensive bow is the product of this but many are. There are $250 bows that are honestly produced, but most of us know the score.
Here's the problem. If you aren't willing to pay an honest price for an honest product, you are pushing the few who have the talent to drive the real development one step closer to throwing in the towel. Nobody is making more than a modest living at this. Most couldn't even afford their own work if they had to buy it. That's pretty sad! When the last one is gone, who exactly is going copy who?? When that happens, nobody will be getting any deals on anything. It will all be junk.
I think your not totaly right on that DAS sorry but some of the lower end bow makers havent got the reputation to sell there bows for 800.00 until they get going good I believe most boyers started out sellling some bows at a cheaper price to get buisness started . you know yourself that word of mouth is a majority of weather a bowyer will make it or break it . there is alot of talent out there that isnt discovered yet but will be in the near future . just like when you started most guys wouldnt even think of shooting a metal riser even though your bows were as good when you started as they are now . but i bet you sold some cheaper in the begining .
QuoteOriginally posted by DAS Kinetic:
Most couldn't even afford their own work if they had to buy it. That's pretty sad!
Well put!
There is a place for both, I doubt if too many of us want to throw one of Bob's bows in the bottom of the boat while bow fishing but we sure love showing it off when ever and where ever.
I do have one question though, If a person has a bow built "Custom" for him, and after some time sells it, Is it really still a custom or just another used bow? Seems to me it is only "Custom" when it was built to the owners specifications... Right?? I know if I bought one of Bob's bows used, I would be proud to have a Morrison, but would not feel right calling it "Custom" (my $0.02)
People Like Bob Morrison, Bill Howland, Wes Wallace, Dale Dye, Norm Johnson, the Grahms, Brandon Stahl, and all the custom bowyers of the world should form a union....then the $800.00 custom bow would only cost $2400.00 and take 3 years to get. I would bet that 99% of you wouldn't trade jobs/incomes with the best known bowyers in the world like Bill Howland or Bob Morrison. IMHO if a guy can't tell the difference between a custom made bow($800.00) and an off the shelf model ($200.00) then they just haven't shot enough bows. Golf players switch whole sets of clubs every year. Do you ever hear him saying that they went with a a club set that cost 75% less because it was "just as good" YA GET WHAT YA PAY FOR!!!!! Live it ! Love it! Or Leave! IF ya want to buy a $200.00 bow then look for $200.00 bow. Don't knock the guys that are buying the $800.00 bows. Cuz when they shoot it for a week and sell it on the classifieds then all us cheap guys get a good deal.
Das said....."The other side of that coin is that it's a whole lot easier to sell a cheap bow if you are one of the guys who takes another bowyers work and just copies it. You have a guy who has the talent and spends his time and money to develop a superior product, and then another no talent walks in and takes it. Development costs real money. The sad fact though is that people's honest hard work gets stolen every day, and the people who do it get rewarded by those who are perfectly happy to get a deal on stolen goods. That's right, stolen goods. For all the talk of ethics in this community, it sure is easy for some to put that aside to save a buck"
Do you mean innovations like metal risers? How about fiberglass or carbon limbs? What about elevated rests? According to your post, unless these innovations were your idea, then you "borrowed" them.
There aren't many new innovations in bow designs. Most designs are "knock-offs" of much older designs. Materials have changed over the years allowing improvement within the design parameters, but trad bows haven't changed much from 10,000 years ago.
Jake said..
"if a guy can't tell the difference between a custom made bow($800.00) and an off the shelf model ($200.00) then they just haven't shot enough bows."
That's not a true statement. A 200 dollar bow can and will preform just as well as an 800 dollar bow. Just because a bow costs more doesn't mean it performs any better. Lots of high end bows can be bought off the shelf.
I'm not putting anyones product down, but just because your bow costs alot of money doesn't mean it's going to make you a better shot. The bow doesn't make the archer, but rather the archer makes the bow
QuoteOriginally posted by NightHawk:
Das said....."The other side of that coin is that it's a whole lot easier to sell a cheap bow if you are one of the guys who takes another bowyers work and just copies it. You have a guy who has the talent and spends his time and money to develop a superior product, and then another no talent walks in and takes it. Development costs real money. The sad fact though is that people's honest hard work gets stolen every day, and the people who do it get rewarded by those who are perfectly happy to get a deal on stolen goods. That's right, stolen goods. For all the talk of ethics in this community, it sure is easy for some to put that aside to save a buck"
Do you mean innovations like metal risers? How about fiberglass or carbon limbs? What about elevated rests? According to your post, unless these innovations were your idea, then you "borrowed" them.
There aren't many new innovations in bow designs. Most designs are "knock-offs" of much older designs. Materials have changed over the years allowing improvement within the design parameters, but trad bows haven't changed much from 10,000 years ago.
Jake said..
"if a guy can't tell the difference between a custom made bow($800.00) and an off the shelf model ($200.00) then they just haven't shot enough bows."
That's not a true statement. A 200 dollar bow can and will preform just as well as an 800 dollar bow. Just because a bow costs more doesn't mean it performs any better. Lots of high end bows can be bought off the shelf.
I'm not putting anyones product down, but just because your bow costs alot of money doesn't mean it's going to make you a better shot. The bow doesn't make the archer, but rather the archer makes the bow
:thumbsup: :notworthy:
YOU'RE ABSOLUTLEY RIGHT MY FREIND .
I'm a sucker for a prety bow. However, I remember hearing somewhere, that most bows are made to shoot better than we can shoot them.
-Charlie
My only problem is if I had the 800+ to spend on a custom bow (I don't I have 5 kids) I wouldn't know which one to buy. So many choices not enough money.
Bottom line is you don't need an 800 dollar bow to shoot traditional equipment. I shoot selfbows I have more sweat in than anything. It shoots nice for me. I also have a real nice R/D longbow from the bow swap, and a bunch of bear bows etc I have picked up here and there. All shoot great for what they are. If you want realy pretty and functional customs are great. Just wish I had the money for one (or two or 5).... Someday
LOL
I don't generally post on threads like these since I have zero experience when it comes to high end custom bows. Heck,I hardly ever even look at theses type of threads, being a "primitive selfbowyer"(read crudely made by myself) type these days.
That being said, I gotta say to all the traditional custom bowyers out there today; I'm glad that you do put your boots on every morning and do what you do. I remember when the archery world was basically taken over by the compound and it seemed that it was pretty much the end of the road for traditional bows. I know it wasn't actually so, but to most people it seemed so. I was even caught up in the "wheels" thing for a number of years.
Anyway to keep it short and because I'm a slow typer, I just want you to know that I'm glad that we are in(as Killdeer put it, I believe) the new "golden age" of traditional archery. and, I think that we all should be glad for the manifold choices when it comes to trad bows. They might not all be to our preference, but at least they are here and available in pretty much all price ranges. How much better could it be? jmho
Jake said "custom bowyers should form a union this way the bow would cost 2,400.00 and take 3 years to get". No call for that comment here Bud Unions built the Empire State Building in 1 1/2 years . We do a four year apprenticeship out here in Jersey, Electricians do five.
QuoteOriginally posted by NightHawk:
Do you mean innovations like metal risers? How about fiberglass or carbon limbs? What about elevated rests? According to your post, unless these innovations were your idea, then you "borrowed" them.
I don't think that's what he meant, but I think it would serve bowyers well to note that a segment of the archery community considers nothing they do is innovative or creative and would gladly support anyone who cared to copy their work and sell it for a lower price, which is pretty easy to do given the fact that they can pick an already successful model and just have it manufactured for them without having to deal with the risk, research and development costs, marketing, etc.
So now they know.... there's nothing "new" in making bows so any successful design they have is subject to be copied and sold cheaper - and the archery community will support that. So we have now coined a new cliche', "bowyer beware". :)
Maybe this point has been made already, but have you noticed how many trucks you have seen with a "Bowtech" or "Matthews" sticker on the back window? Or have you seen the dudes at 3d shoots decked out in Hoyt regalia shooting the latest bow with all of the bells and whistles? Hoo boy, the latest Field and Stream tested the new compound bows and they aren't cheap. Once you get them all decked out you're going to come close or pass $ 800.
After I put down a one hundred dollar deposit on my Striker and as I walked away from Rick's booth at the Iowa Deer Class it really began to dawn on me that I had just made a major financial commitment. I began to voice a little buyer's remorse and, "hoo boy what have I gotten myself into" thoughts. My 14 year old son stopped me and reminded me that I would have spent that much or more if I had gotten a decent compound. Now that I've got the bow paid for and in my hand I don't regret it at all. It feels like an extension of my arm, it shoots smoothly and is pretty to boot. Money well spent.
$ 800 bucks for a custom ain't cheap. But if the bow does everything you want it to then save your money and pinch here and there, 'cuz it's a good deal and money well spent.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bob Morrison:
There are some good bowyers coming up, just think how far ahead of the other up and coming they would be if they had started, Got with someone with 20 years experience??????? and took over ????????????????????
Bob, I agree with you totally.
The two examples I gave, Jim Neaves and Brandon Stahl each had those benefits.
Jim worked for Gordon Mickens of Selway Archery before starting Centaur.
Brandon had a relative that showed him how to make bows, then he did it as a hobby for 13 years before starting Rose Oak Creations as a business.
Your point was certainly made with an exclamation :bigsmyl:
It should also be noted that Brandon doesn't make longbows and Jim doesn't make recurves. They both seem very comfortable in their respective niches.
Probably 20 yrs ago I went to one of the NMLRA shoots over in Friendship Indiana. Wow!!! Did I see some gorgeous stuff over there. One of the items that caught my eye was a nice handmade possibles bag for holding powder, caps, balls etc... Well, the guy wanted $100 for it. $100 I said!!!! Hell, I can make one for half of nuthin!!!!
I go back home, and head to the local leather shop and buy some leather, some awls, some artifical sinew and proceed to make my own. Well after about a week of cutting patterns, marking and punching holes, running sinew through all those holes, my fingers were sore and about half bloody. I did it right though. Sewed it inside out and then turned it right side in so the stiches wouldn't show. It turned out first class. Finally I had it finished and decided to add up all of my costs, mat'l, tools, and finally labor.
If I coulda sold that bag for $300 I still woulda been in the hole.
QuoteOriginally posted by NightHawk:
Do you mean innovations like metal risers? How about fiberglass or carbon limbs? What about elevated rests? According to your post, unless these innovations were your idea, then you "borrowed" them.
That's not what I meant at all, and it should be pretty obvious. A Timex is not a foul on a Rolex, but a chinese "Roleks" is. Samicks copy of a Black Widow is too. These are products designed specifically to capitalize on another products appearaance, prestige, or market. There are plenty of less obvious examples in the trad world where specific details or methods have been lifted. You are right that making gains in design are tough to do because of the long evolution of the bow. That's why any gains require so much time, ingenuity, and money to achieve. What makes the theft of these things so egregious in this community is the scale of the damage done. Your not talking about something that results in a 1/10 of a percent reduction in a stockholders portfolio. We're talking about a group of crafts people who exist on the edge of financial solvency under the best of conditions.
David
I wish I'd have learned the value of quality when I was 18 years old instead of spending years "saving bucks" and then being unsatisfied with my purchases. I would be a lot richer in many ways if I had never gone cheap and just bought the best in things I really wanted. Not only would I have saved the $$$ from multiple purchases of barely adequate or inadequate products, but I'd have enjoyed the use of high quality stuff that lasts the whole time.
Ultimately, every product sells for what it's worth. Contrary to popular belief, the consumer sets the price, not the producer. That's simply the way things work in a capitalist society. Things can be different when there is a monopoly involved but sooner or later, in a free market, the price of every product will be set by demand, perceived value, customer service and availability.
Black Widow and a few others have succeeded in what they do because they build a quality product, they focus on customer service, they have a stellar reputation, they continually try to improve their product without losing site of what it is that people like about them. They have been "copied" many times but they just keep on getting bigger. In their hayday, Bear archery was the same way.
Bowyers are not unique in having expenses to run their businesses. I have astronomical insurance costs, not only for me but for my employees. Tack on liability insurance, workmans comp., retiremet, trucks, trailers, tools, advertising, delays, subcontractor costs, cost of building supplies, and the list goes on and on and on. If someone wants to build a house just like mine, I don't have a thing to say about it, nor should I or would I. If I or a customer pay an architect to design a custom home, there is absolutely nothing that stops the next guy from taking a picture of it and building one for himself or an entire development full of them for that matter. If someone wants to build the same bow or close to the same bow as someone else, how is that different that a customer having 3 or 4 or 5 different contractors bidding on the same job? If someone is undercutting me, either he has found a way to do what I do more efficiently, he is cutting corners, or it could be that in the end, I am just making a better quality, more innovative product. In case number one, either I get more efficient or I starve. In the second or third example, people will understand why I charge more and if the quality of my product is worth it to them, they will choose me. If there truly is no perceived value, I will go out of business.
I compete 24/7 with dozens of different contractors in my immediate area alone. I don't complain when someone else gets their builder's license nor do I complain when someone decides to install aluminum facia the same way I do so it doesn't buckle. After all, I copied it from someone else. I do the very best I can do for each customer, charge a fair price over and above my expenses and I seem to have more work than I can do. Quality always sells. I don't ever worry about what modular home manufacturers are doing becuase the people that are in the market for that type of home are not potential customers of mine anyway.
I say build what you build, constantly try to improve on your designs and methods, and let the customer decide.
:thumbsup:
I understand exactly Lenny. If I needed a new rifle, I'd be much smarter to buy it out of Vinny's van down the street. His prices are about 1/2 what the local gunshop charges, and after all, he's a small businessman too. He's just found a better way to compete, that's all. If he doesn't have exactly what I want, he can usually "find" it in a week or two, and I don't have those irritating back ground checks to mess with either. Everyone wins! I feel just fine about the guns I've bought from Vinny. He's carrying on an age old tradition and I'm getting a great deal. I'm not doing anything wrong, I'm just buying a gun for a good price and being a smart consumer. If the local gunshop goes out of business, that's his problem. He should have found a way to compete better just like Vinny. If you can't compete, you get what you deserve. The customer has spoken.
That's all I've got say on this subject.
David
:confused:
Your example is not relevant, but you certainly are entitled to your opinion.
If Vinny is selling used guns legally, he has every right to do what he does. I could use the same comparison by saying that the only houses bought by anyone should be new ones, built by me of course. Are we to assume that all used bow sales should be banned becuase it takes away a potential customer from a bowyer that is building new bows?
Now, if Vinnie is selling guns illegally out of his van, he should go to prison. If a builder is building houses without a license, not building to code etc., I shouldnt have to compete against that. To the best of my knowledge, that's not what we are talking about here...or is it? Comparing that to various bowyers, doing things legally, competing for business, is not only dishonest, but foolish.
Let's keep it real.
Lenny, I think you got it..
If a builder is building houses without a license, not building to code etc., I shouldnt have to compete against that.....
Not Paying Fed Excise Tax, Not Having Liability Insurance Not paying state and local sales tax, Not paying workers comp...
Whats the difference?
Having been a custom home builder for over 30 yrs. I do know a little about this also. And if you built two homes yourself as a spec homes side by side on different nice sized lot so they are in a good setting. And you built both of them exactly the same. $500000. and One you didn't have to pay any permits no workerscomp,Liability insurance . This house sells for $475,000 and the front door needs replaced. I'm pretty sure 99% of the buyers can get a front door replaced and That home will sell faster. and if you had 3 of them the same way they would all sell before your $500.000.
Wow--this one has sure taken a side road.....
I just re-read the entire thing, and couldn't find where anyone said any bowyer should just give their work away, or that no bow should cost more than certain amount, or umpteen other "replies" to statements that were never made to begin with.
I hope the guy who originally started this thread was able to get some sort of viable answer to his question. Guess the obvious answer is "depends on who you ask".
As far as the most recent comments go........
I'll start with this: I'm not a bowyer, I never have been a bowyer, and I have no intentions of ever becoming a bowyer. I have several years experience in tradtional archery, with hundreds of different bows, and I ask a lot of different bowyers a lot of different questions, so I'm not totally ignorant, but I realize there's a lot you can only learn with hands-on experience.
However, I can relate to making a product with my own hands, "custom" if you will. I'm not saying strings are the same as bows, but business is business, and I've managed to stay in business for close to 10 years now. I've survived a few attempts at cutting my throat, and things are now better than ever.
I love to make strings, I'll never get rich making strings, but there's no way I could put as much time and money as I do into it without making a profit. I have to eat and pay my bills like anyone else. If it cost me to do it, at best I'd only make them for myself and close friends, and I'd have a "real" job on the side to pay bills. However, I've learned to make them well enough and fast enough to at least make enough profit to keep the business viable. Bill collectors could care less how much you love what you do--unless you have an alternative cash supply, you either make money or you go under.
I didn't invent flemish or endless strings, I just developed my own personal way of making them. I don't care if someone copies it--heck, I was involved in making a DVD to show people exactly how I do mine! The reason being is I know that as long as I treat my customers right, and put out a quality product, I will be in business.
I know there's a lot of folks that make them, and some charge a lot less than I do (and some charge more). My sales have increased since releasing the DVD! No idea just how that works, since there's now thousands more people who have step-by-step instructions on how to make them exactly like I do, without having to invest years and years, along with thousands of strings and hundreds of pounds of material, of trial and error to figure it out. Obviously I'm not the least bit worried about someone copying my work and putting me out of business.
This next part isn't intended to step on any toes, but it probably will. I agree with another poster that there are very few new innovations in this sport. Materials may change and/or improve, but pretty much every bow on the market is in some way, shape, or form a copy of someone else's ideas. A long time ago somebody figured out putting a backing on a wood bow improved it. Then glass. Then carbon. Some folks have just figured out how to do it better, more efficiently, cheaper, or whatever.
Everyone who's been in this sport for any amount of time is familiar with the BW limb coming off the belly side of the riser. Ben Pearson had a model like that years and years ago. I don't know if BW came up with the idea first, or Mr. Pearson, but BW took the idea and made it work. As far as I know, Pearson Archery only had the one model like that, and I don't think it ever took off. Samick can copy the look of a BW, but it will never be a BW, and folks that want a BW won't buy a Samick because of the looks. Just like most of my customers don't come to me just because they want a string that looks similar to mine, they come to me because they want a string that I built.
Metal risers are nothing new. They have come and gone (on this side of the sport anyway) and are obviously gaining popularity again. If something looks like it's going to make money, somebody is going to copy it and take shorcuts if possible, or simply figure out a more efficient/cheaper/better way to make them.
It's not cool, especially if you are the one that spent your time and money getting the trend going, but that's the American way. It's no secret, and certainly nothing new.
If you can develop something that is truly innovative, the only thing to do to protect your investment is patent it, else you'll just have to be honored that someone liked your idea well enough to use it themself--"imitation is the highest form of flattery". Then you will have to stay one step ahead of the competion, putting out a product that is better, offering better service, and/or sell it at a better price. Again, the American way. Nobody ever said it was fair.
Look at it from another POV. Reckon how much time and money Mr. Earl Hoyt Jr. invested in the ILF system? How many different companies now use that? Does Mr. Hoyt get any royalties from his innovation?
I have no idea who invented flemish or endless strings, but I'm glad I don't have to pay them royalties. I simply have to take my own advice to stay ahead of the competition, or at least do enough business to remain viable. If someone figures out how to do it better, cheaper, etc. and puts me out of business........oh well. I'm sure I'd fuss and gripe, but what good will that do?
It happens to businesses all the time. Business chains--whether it be Wal-Mart, Auto Zone, McDonalds, Bass Pro, etc. are prime examples. Even in our own ranks, we have big trad stores that the smaller guys can hardley compete with.
Big stores, big money, dang hard to hang in there with them around. However, there are still a lot of "little guys" that figured out how to stay in business, even flourish, with the big competition. The little guys (myself included) just have to work harder, longer, better, etc. or move on. Like I learned a long time ago, life ain't fair. We can either fuss about it, or deal with it.
Chad
Chad, the string business and bow business are very, very different. Everyone who has a bow is a potential customer for multiple strings for each bow. The bow market is a lot more limited and a lot more competitive. It's like comparing the tire market to the automobile market.
Ask a custom knifemaker what he thinks about another knifemaker copying a very successful design of his, calling it an original and selling it for less. It's done but knifemakers don't approve of or condone such things. But it's one of those gray areas where it's an ethical question instead of a legal question.
I've been following this thread but decided to keep my big mouth shut :)
Having said that, from my viewpoint, I think Chad says it all, and says it eloquently.
Dave in Ft. Collins, CO
Chad:
Don't let anyone tell you that building and selling bows is different that building and selling srings. It is simply not true. The same principles of business apply. Just because you may have more of a demand for the shear volume of strings, your net profit per string is a heck of a lot less than it is for a bow. You must to deal in volume in order to make it work. Any small custom bowyer would be tickled to be able to make and sell 10 bows a week, not to mention he or she would make a pretty darn good living. If you had to live on selling 10 strings a week, your wife better have a dang good job.
You are absolutely, positively, 100% right on the money. Excuses can be made about this, that, or the other thing but the fact of the matter is, your competition NEVER puts you out of business. If you can no longer produce what the public wants, at a price they are willing to pay, and service it after the sale, you are putting yourself out of business.
If there are enough people out there that are willing to pay five or ten thousand dollars for a Rolex, they will survive and thrive. People in the market for a "Roleks" aren't, or never were in the market for a Rolex. On the other hand, you simply don't have to pay that kind of money to get a very high quality timepiece. Regardless of what Rolex may say, you can spend a couple hundred bucks and get a watch that is just as functional, and just as accurate. If, and this is the million dollar question, the buying public is happy with a 200.00 watch, the manufacturer of that watch did not put Rolex out of business. Rolex no longer met the wants and desires of the customer.
Did Henry Ford put the buggy makers out of business? Did he invent the automobile? Or did he simply find a way to mass produce a product that the American people wanted at a price that they could afford and give it to them in a timely manner?
One other thing I might add is that quite often perception is equally as improtant if not more important than reality.
If I spent half my time picketing in front of my competitors buliding sites, or putting signs out in the right of way that said "dont buy this house because the builder uses the same building materials I do and he blind nails his facia just like I do so it's just not fair..." do you think that would hurt or help my business?
Do you think it would hurt or help your business Chad if you had everyone that bought your DVD sign a non-compete agreement that says "if you watch this DVD, you can never produce a flemish string in the manner shown on this DVD or use a jig like the one seen on this DVD or use any of the raw materials used on this DVD if your intention is to offer any of your strings for sale...?"
I don't even think you need to answer that question.
Chad,
There are no patents. Patents are an urban myth. The average small business man would spend every penny he would make in his career getting and then attempting to defend a patent. And that, with no assurance that even a valid patent could be defended. Even the patent office does not certify that the patent they issue you is valid. That's right, it is worth nothing unless you have the financial power to overcome an opponent in court. Even if you do get a good ruling, what are you going to get in damages?? You just spent 5 years and $250,000 to get a ruling and now the loser declares bankruptcy and walks away. Anyone who has the money to get and defend a patent doesn't need to be in business at all. They are independently wealthy.
Here are some facts:
1. The US government does not certify that any patent they issue is valid. They claim no liability. and offer no enforcement
2. A simple Patent will cost $10,000 and can take 7 to 10 years to get. More complicted common patents can run over $20,000 and take even longer.
3. Until a patent is granted, you have zero rights to defend it. Anyone can take your patent information straight out of the patent office and use it with impunity for all the years that the patent is being reviewed.
4. The US government does don't defend patents or your rights under patent law. You do.
5. Most patent litigation ends in nothing more than a cease operation order. Getting actual damages is rare. It's extremely rare to even recover your expenses. Patents only benefit two groups: large corps with millions at stake, and attorneys. Everyone else loses.
6. If a patent suit is brought, the patent holder has to finance the effort in the state where the offender lives. It costs much more to bring a patent suit than it does to defend yourself from one.
7. Many foriegn countries don't even honor our patents, like china, so in many cases they are totally worthless.
8. Most patent disputes are decided by the depth of the pockets, not who is right or wrong. The first one to run out of money loses.
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything though. I gave that up a long time ago. This is just some info for the uninformed.
David
If a builder is building houses without a license, not building to code etc., I shouldnt have to compete against that. Not my statement..I still can't see the difference here..... I give up Why shoot an $800 bow then you can get one for $200...........
Bob, I don't envy you guys. This is a tiny niche market and it's as cut throat as any, so lots of risk with little to gain. I had thought about getting into making bows and thought it would be an idyllic life but more power to you guys in the business. I don't know how you keep doing it but I'm glad you do.
It's really quite simple Bob. Are you or DAS Kinetic suggesting that someone is building bows illegally? If so, who, and what laws are they breaking?
There really is no dispute here, the consumer is going to make the decision as to who stays in business and who doesn't, not one's competition.
QuoteOriginally posted by Lenny Stankowitz:
There really is no dispute here, the consumer is going to make the decision as to who stays in business and who doesn't, not one's competition.
When there aren't enough customers to support two businesses, the one with the deepest pockets need only hang in there long enough for his competitor to starve under siege. It's unfortunate. If the market was larger, perhaps both would do well. One guy, however, makes his product for his livelihood and needs cash flow to keep the business fluid. The other guy has millions to throw at it, win, lose or draw. It's a foregone conclusion to me how this will end up going and it's got nothing whatsoever to do with the quality or price of the product. That market is a splinter of a splinter of a splinter.
But that's life and that's business. So the world will keep turning and I think Dave will do very well for himself but he'll have to ditch the archery business and move on to something else in order to do it. It'll be a loss to us, but we'll all get over it and in the end, I think Dave will be better off even if it's the end of a good thing for traditional archery.
Time will tell how it all goes down, but that's my educated guess. I know enough about Dave's business and this market to know that it's an untenable situation and there isn't a thing Dave can do about it except figure out a plan B for life after bowmaking. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and move on.
"It's a foregone conclusion to me how this will end up going and it's got nothing whatsoever to do with the quality or price of the product. That market is a splinter of a splinter of a splinter."
That's what they told Ken Beck when he took over Black Widow. There are at least 20 times the custom bowyers now than there were then and BW just continues to grow. They said he was nuts. They said not enough people want to shoot those old bows anymore. They called him crazy. The market for what DAS Kinetic does is in it's infancy. In my humble opinion, in 10 years the traditional archery landscape will be completely different than it is today. DAS Kinetic and a few others have the opportunity to be at the top of the heap when this transition takes place.
Let's hope he doesn't take the above belief, adopt it and make it a self fulfilling prophesy.
:campfire:
Lenny, it's got nothing to do with a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's got to do with demographics. Black Widows have been around for a long, long time - before compounds became the norm. The worst hurdle Dave had to overcome was the "metal bows ain't traditional noway" mindset. That made things very dicey and is still a very significant factor. It was unfortunate enough that as soon as he made enough headway to possibly turn it around and was no longer getting beaten about the head and shoulders by traditional purists, the other fella decided the fruit was ripe for the picking and squeezed the trigger on the "me too" project, which of course, was the las thing he needed.
So who knows how it will go. I hate to admit it, but I'd find a certain amount of irony and poetic justice in this whole thing if Dave ditched this and then the guys who hated his guts for ruining "traditional archery" with that metal bow nonsense started piling on the "other guy", who so far has had a free ride there.
I think the wheels are in motion for a result that will wind up with the "me too" project dying out due to a severe miscalculation in market potential, but only after Dave has been forced to throw in the towel. There's only so many times you can run up against a brick wall before you decide it's best to take another path. I give Dave very high marks for dedication in sticking with the project this long after all he's been through.
I hope he can stick it out, but I wouldn't blame him one bit if he shrugged his shoulders and moved on to something that wasn't nearly as stressful or dicey.
Right on, Lenny! DAS Kinetic is one of the good ones. If I could afford one of his bows, I would own one. I've heard nothing but good about his bow (you too Bob, you make one of the really great bows).
The last thing we should do is discourage these bowyers.
Dave in Ft. Collins, CO
"I think the wheels are in motion for a result that will wind up with the "me too" project dying out due to a severe miscalculation in market potential"
With all due respect, I think it might be you that is miscalculating the potential for this market.
Hoyt saw the potential for a metal riser hunting bow long before DAS Kinetic brought a bow to market. They have and continue to sell scads of these bows both under the Hoyt and Reflex nameplate. In my opinion, these bows don't even compare to the quality of the short riser / ILF limb combination. This market in my opinion is going to explode and "all ships will rise with the tide" so to speak. You are always going to have a segment of the traditional archery community that is unwilling to even entertain the thought of such a bow but as more and more people are exposed, more and more people are going to see the benefits of such a product. This doesn't even take into account the archers that for whatever reason lose interest in modern archery equipment. Many of these people have ONLY held a compound in their hands. Many, if not the majority of the people that shoot traditional equipment today either started on traditional equipment and never swithed when the compound came out or they started on traditional equipment, went to a compound and then came back. Wooden longbows and recurves are what they know. It IS tradition. We have an entire new generation of "potential" traditional archers that have never held a wooden bow in their hand. When they decide to make the transition from modern equipment, what do you think will be the next logical step for them? Do you think they are going to jump from a Mathews Switchback to a snakey osage selfbow?
Think beyond the current marketplace a little. Successful businesses have to cater to the current marketplace for sure, but more importantly is the need to look at what the marketplace is likely to morph into in the next few years and be prepared to meet those needs. People that are in a position to fill that need are going to be the ones that are going to be successful and there are going to be a lot of bowyers in my opnion scrambling to play catch-up.
I guess we'll all see.
Methinks Lenny may be on to something. Wasn't that many years ago carbon arrows were considered to be an abomination to traditional archery by a lot of folks--now they seem to be in the majority of quivers, both hunting and target.
It's just a cold hard fact of life in the business world--the little guy is always going to have a hard row to hoe. The little guy is always going to have to work harder, better, longer, and smarter to stay alive, and will need some luck to even think about getting ahead. Doesn't matter if it's bows, strings, or widgets--business is business, and the allmighty dollar is going to be the driving force. Just loving what you do won't pay the bills.
The best advice I can offer is rather than getting aggravated or even lowering your standards for some kind of short-term payback (that will bite you square on the butt sooner and/or later), use it as a motivator to push you to make your product better.
Chad
QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:
It's just a cold hard fact of life in the business world--the little guy is always going to have a hard row to hoe. The little guy is always going to have to work harder, better, longer, and smarter to stay alive, and will need some luck to even think about getting ahead.
Yep. The little guy that's been an integral part of the community for a long time doing the innovation out of love for the sport needs luck and, more importantly, real support from the community. Folks saying "well, gee, just hang in there in spite of everything, dude" won't pay any bills and paying bills is necessary for "hanging in there". Maybe there's enough support for Dave to make it long term, but judging from how loyal people have been and what people consider right and fair tell me that it's just not there.
I hope I'm wrong about that, but I seem to have misplaced my rose colored glasses.
Just remember, every "big guy" started out a "little guy."
Very seldom does a little guy get to be a big guy by jacking people around. If he does manage to to pull it off, it never lasts long. let's keep in mind that some of these people that we are talking about have been serving the archery community for decades. Very seldom does a little guy become a big guy based on years and years of hard work and customer service and then overnight turn into a "crooked guy." Just doesn't make sense.
QuoteOriginally posted by Lenny Stankowitz:
Just remember, every "big guy" started out a "little guy."
Not always. Some get their big guy card handed to them by their fathers. But there are others like Bill Gates, who did make a fortune on their own by killing their competition any way possible, legal, ethical or principled notions notwithstanding. It's actually quite easy to do well in business if you can put scruples aside whenever it's convenient. Bill Gates is a great example of that. He sure didn't get to be fabulously wealthy by offering the best operating systems and software and fair, honest business practices. ;) He did a great job of squashing the guys that built a better product. He either bought them out, stole the product outright or crushed them under his heel by destroying their market with lowball prices.
But that's just business.
I remember my Mom telling me one time that for some reason, the people that trust the least seem to be the least trustworty.
I'm sure this isn't always true but I bet it is in most cases.
:thumbsup:
QuoteOriginally posted by Lenny Stankowitz:
[QB] I remember my Mom telling me one time that for some reason, the people that trust the least seem to be the least trustworty.[QB]
PT Barnum called people who trusted the most "suckers".
Some people can be trusted and some people can't but I've never been able to make a correlation between how easily someone can get suckered into a game of three-card monty and how trustworthy they were or weren't. A lot of really trustworthy guys just know better than to play.
QuoteOriginally posted by LBR:
Wow--this one has sure taken a side road.....
I just re-read the entire thing, and couldn't find where anyone said any bowyer should just give their work away, or that no bow should cost more than certain amount, or umpteen other "replies" to statements that were never made to begin with.
I hope the guy who originally started this thread was able to get some sort of viable answer to his question. Guess the obvious answer is "depends on who you ask".
As far as the most recent comments go........
I'll start with this: I'm not a bowyer, I never have been a bowyer, and I have no intentions of ever becoming a bowyer. I have several years experience in tradtional archery, with hundreds of different bows, and I ask a lot of different bowyers a lot of different questions, so I'm not totally ignorant, but I realize there's a lot you can only learn with hands-on experience.
However, I can relate to making a product with my own hands, "custom" if you will. I'm not saying strings are the same as bows, but business is business, and I've managed to stay in business for close to 10 years now. I've survived a few attempts at cutting my throat, and things are now better than ever.
I love to make strings, I'll never get rich making strings, but there's no way I could put as much time and money as I do into it without making a profit. I have to eat and pay my bills like anyone else. If it cost me to do it, at best I'd only make them for myself and close friends, and I'd have a "real" job on the side to pay bills. However, I've learned to make them well enough and fast enough to at least make enough profit to keep the business viable. Bill collectors could care less how much you love what you do--unless you have an alternative cash supply, you either make money or you go under.
I didn't invent flemish or endless strings, I just developed my own personal way of making them. I don't care if someone copies it--heck, I was involved in making a DVD to show people exactly how I do mine! The reason being is I know that as long as I treat my customers right, and put out a quality product, I will be in business.
I know there's a lot of folks that make them, and some charge a lot less than I do (and some charge more). My sales have increased since releasing the DVD! No idea just how that works, since there's now thousands more people who have step-by-step instructions on how to make them exactly like I do, without having to invest years and years, along with thousands of strings and hundreds of pounds of material, of trial and error to figure it out. Obviously I'm not the least bit worried about someone copying my work and putting me out of business.
This next part isn't intended to step on any toes, but it probably will. I agree with another poster that there are very few new innovations in this sport. Materials may change and/or improve, but pretty much every bow on the market is in some way, shape, or form a copy of someone else's ideas. A long time ago somebody figured out putting a backing on a wood bow improved it. Then glass. Then carbon. Some folks have just figured out how to do it better, more efficiently, cheaper, or whatever.
Everyone who's been in this sport for any amount of time is familiar with the BW limb coming off the belly side of the riser. Ben Pearson had a model like that years and years ago. I don't know if BW came up with the idea first, or Mr. Pearson, but BW took the idea and made it work. As far as I know, Pearson Archery only had the one model like that, and I don't think it ever took off. Samick can copy the look of a BW, but it will never be a BW, and folks that want a BW won't buy a Samick because of the looks. Just like most of my customers don't come to me just because they want a string that looks similar to mine, they come to me because they want a string that I built.
Metal risers are nothing new. They have come and gone (on this side of the sport anyway) and are obviously gaining popularity again. If something looks like it's going to make money, somebody is going to copy it and take shorcuts if possible, or simply figure out a more efficient/cheaper/better way to make them.
It's not cool, especially if you are the one that spent your time and money getting the trend going, but that's the American way. It's no secret, and certainly nothing new.
If you can develop something that is truly innovative, the only thing to do to protect your investment is patent it, else you'll just have to be honored that someone liked your idea well enough to use it themself--"imitation is the highest form of flattery". Then you will have to stay one step ahead of the competion, putting out a product that is better, offering better service, and/or sell it at a better price. Again, the American way. Nobody ever said it was fair.
Look at it from another POV. Reckon how much time and money Mr. Earl Hoyt Jr. invested in the ILF system? How many different companies now use that? Does Mr. Hoyt get any royalties from his innovation?
I have no idea who invented flemish or endless strings, but I'm glad I don't have to pay them royalties. I simply have to take my own advice to stay ahead of the competition, or at least do enough business to remain viable. If someone figures out how to do it better, cheaper, etc. and puts me out of business........oh well. I'm sure I'd fuss and gripe, but what good will that do?
It happens to businesses all the time. Business chains--whether it be Wal-Mart, Auto Zone, McDonalds, Bass Pro, etc. are prime examples. Even in our own ranks, we have big trad stores that the smaller guys can hardley compete with.
Big stores, big money, dang hard to hang in there with them around. However, there are still a lot of "little guys" that figured out how to stay in business, even flourish, with the big competition. The little guys (myself included) just have to work harder, longer, better, etc. or move on. Like I learned a long time ago, life ain't fair. We can either fuss about it, or deal with it.
Chad
Allow me to offer a short reply to a long post...
:clapper:
The nearest I can get in this debate, is that over here we're very limited on what's available (if you forget about Border + 1 or 2 noteable excetions)
I got to experience nothing but $200 bows when I first got into Trad archery & I was happy enough with all of them & couldn't understand why someone would spend much more for a simple stick. Until I shot one. The difference was utterly, utterly amazing & I suddenly understood how & why folks could justify the extra cost. To me the whole shooting experience was changed, everything just felt 'better'
I think that the bottm line (for me at least) is that a bow is worth whatever you are willing to pay for your own happiness & satisfaction. If you are not prepared to pay out for a hig end bow, please, please don't try one. It may just change your mind! :D
I think a bowyer charging $800 for a bow that tips lean from side to side is fooling himself about his craft level. Even if the bow is constructed out of furniture grade Snakewood. I see very often $200 bows built more soundly over $800.
My dad always said it's worth what ever you get for it. I love $800.000 bows. But only when I can get them used! :bigsmyl: <><