Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: oldbohntr on August 25, 2013, 11:37:00 AM
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Anyone out there who has put 70-80# Hill style bow through a chrono lately. Like a Big Five, for example. With a cedar arrow about 28-29" long, and weighing about 550-575 gr. Not interested in estimates or discussing the merits of one bow or arrow vs another. This is not an opinion survey.
I can't pull the bows I pulled 30 years ago, but I thought they were the best thing going. I just want a number that is accurate for a relative comparison to those I shoot now-which are much lighter.
Thank you for your help.
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Tom;
I shot a 70lb Northern Mist Shelton (string follow Hill) through their chrono using 670 grain arrows and was consistently 186-188 fps. That's as close as I got to your specs. Hope that helps. Probably in the 190's with your arrow weight. One additional note; this was with a 31" draw.
Dave
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I chronoed a lot bows, both recurves and longbows. I didn't chrono them with cedars, but I have a Ron Maulding Tonkin 68" 70# @ 28" I hunted with for a lot of years. At the time I shot 2216 Easton arrows 29" long with a 145 grain head. I am not sure the weight of the 2216s but that bow shot those arrows in mid to high 190s.
I had shot and compared Hill Wesley specials against recurves at 55# @ 28" with carbons. I found the recurve with light arrows shot much faster than the Hill, but as arrow weight increased the recurve seemed to loose it's mechanical advantage and the Hill and recurve shot the nearly the same speed when arrows got around 12 gpp to 13 gpp.
Gil
PS - Tom I will have to send you a picture of that '59 you sold me. It is ready to hunt. I am not getting it refinished and it will be just hunted as it should be. Your friend did a good job on the tips. Don't tell him that, so you have something to hold over his head.
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I have had one situation that I am sure about the arrow weight and bow weight that nearly matches the spec you requested, but I am am not so sure about the the chrono, it seems that every time one of those are set up about half of the people disagree with its accuracy. A 72#@28" Schulz Hunter with arrows that were 70-75 Acme cedars with 160 field points, the arrow weights were about 570. Drawn to about 71 pounds the bow registered speeds from 198 to 204. I had a heavier bow with same draw, the same arrow shot by the same person that chronoed slower than that with the same chrono that day. We made the observation that if we could see the difference, we were looking at least 10 feet per second.
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Last week I shot my string follow Northern Mist through the clock... The bow weighs 59 at 28, I draw it another inch. The arrow I shot weighed 9 grains per pound of draw weight.. Shot it three times through the chrono, two were 186 and the last was 187 fps..
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I shot my 7 Lakes SF Carolina Night with cedars weighing in the 430 range. Bow is 47 @ 27. It shot in the mid-lower 160fps range for a roughly 9gpp arrow.
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OK, guys, thanks. That's about what I was thinking, but I almost never chronographed anything way back then. But, I had no complaint about the performance.
Gil, coincidentally, I had 5 or 6 of Ron Maulding's Bighorns and I loved them. They were really the bows I had in mind when I asked this question...but I felt too few guys would know the name. I'd love to find one of his bows now in 50-55#...just to keep around for my old age, you understand. ;)
I agree with all the other observations: Chronographs prove NOTHING w/o a shooting machine, and then they only prove a little! Heavier arrows level the field;that and higher FOC trump speed in my book. My arrows are what is really different than I used back then.(other than lower draw weight.)
As before, I was happy with what I used to shoot, and am very happy with current choices. Just considering the differences, that's all. Might be something to think about during a long winter....
Gil, it's gonna get real irritating hearing about how much you like my old Kodiak!!! (LOL) But, I did tell you so!
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Tom I still have my Maulding and quiver Ron made me back in the early 80s. I rarely see any come up but if I do I will let you know.
I went from Bear Retro hunting to making that '59 a shooter and hunter. Velcro shelf and side plate, cat whiskers, camo sleeves and posi-grip. It is a great shooter. I am working up a CX Heritage 350 to hunt with off of it.
(http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv324/distantmeadows/007_zps257a5e42.jpg) (http://s696.photobucket.com/user/distantmeadows/media/007_zps257a5e42.jpg.html)
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It'll knock 'em down, that's for sure! Good luck!
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This Is the tested HH Wesley Spécial 80# @ 28" on a Hooter shooter, Dacron string. 28" DL (26.25" from string to pivot point of shelf). 7 différent weight shot 3 time each on shooting machine through 2 chrono in line, 1 meter from the 1st.
Read the arrow weight in gpp ( grain per pound) down and corresponding speed in fps on left on BLUE LINE
10 gpp speed mesured is 160 fps.
8 gpp speed Is 173 fps
12 gpp speed Is 152 fps
In our test the lightest arrow was 585 gr / 7.3 gpp and speed 176 fps
(http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx225/hybridbowhunter/HHill.jpg) (http://s758.photobucket.com/user/hybridbowhunter/media/HHill.jpg.html)
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Originally posted by hybridbow hunter:
This Is the tested HH Wesley Spécial 80# @ 28" on a Hooter shooter, Dacron string. 28" DL (26.25" from string to pivot point of shelf)
Read the arrow weight in gpp ( grain per pound) down and corresponding speed in fps on left.
10 gpp speed mesured is 160 fps.
8 gpp speed Is 173 fps
12 gpp speed Is 152 fps
In our test the lightest arrow was 585 gr / 7.3 gpp and speed 176 fps
(http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx225/hybridbowhunter/HHill.jpg) (http://s758.photobucket.com/user/hybridbowhunter/media/HHill.jpg.html)
These speeds are much more in line with what I would expect from a hill bow than what has been previously reported.
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Originally posted by hybridbow hunter:
This Is the tested HH Wesley Spécial 80# @ 28" on a Hooter shooter, Dacron string. 28" DL (26.25" from string to pivot point of shelf)
Read the arrow weight in gpp ( grain per pound) down and corresponding speed in fps on left.
10 gpp speed mesured is 160 fps.
8 gpp speed Is 173 fps
12 gpp speed Is 152 fps
In our test the lightest arrow was 585 gr / 7.3 gpp and speed 176 fps
(http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx225/hybridbowhunter/HHill.jpg) (http://s758.photobucket.com/user/hybridbowhunter/media/HHill.jpg.html)
Your one of the few people who's chrono is really close to mine. Everybody else seems to have a faster one.
:dunno:
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If you want to chase speed find a hybrid....quiet and good cast from an effective stable bow is what Hill styles are about.
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Originally posted by Gil Verwey:
'...
I had shot and compared Hill Wesley specials against recurves at 55# @ 28" with carbons. I found the recurve with light arrows shot much faster than the Hill, but as arrow weight increased the recurve seemed to loose it's mechanical advantage and the Hill and recurve shot the nearly the same speed when arrows got around 12 gpp to 13 gpp.
Gil
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This will never happen: a much faster bow at a given arrow weight will remain the fastest with heavier arrow. For an average fiberglass recurve 12 gpp speed Is some where in the 160-165 fps wich Is the 10 gpp HH bow speed at 10 gpp.
Fastest modern recurve can go upper than 175 fps at 12 gpp in Ready to hunt conditions, the speed you will get below 8 gpp with an HH bow. That means a 600 gr arrow flying at the same speed from a 50 # recurve or a 75# HH.
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Back before chronos were around we flight shot to check speed. A test comparison with a Jack Howard compared to an identical Bear takedown, a Damon Howatt and a Schulz longbow that was 4 pounds stiffer, showed that the cast does indeed change with some bows at different arrow weights. The Jack Howard was faster by a little than the Diablo with lighter arrows, they were both faster than the Bear, but the the Schulz longbow came in close to the Howatt. When the arrows went to the 2020s the Bear fell way behind, the Howatt fell closer to the Schulz and the Jack Howard seemed to eat up those heavier shafts. When we went to the Forgewoods the percentage of difference from the Schulz to the Jack Howard was less, but the JH was still faster. The Bear and the Diablo did not like the heavy Forgewoods at all and their cast showed it. While a longbow quite often does not put out the lighter arrow faster, it does not gain as much or lose as much when arrow weights change because of the ratio of limb weight to arrow weight variations. In the tests we did, certainly the Schulz never caught up with the Jack Howard, but as the arrow weights went up it separated itself from the slower Bear takedown and did keep pace with the Diablo with the heavier arrows. But then not all longbows are created equal, I have had lots of longbows that were considerably slower than those two Schulz longbows and still a blast to hunt with and equally bloody.
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QUOTE]These speeds are much more in line with what I would expect from a hill bow than what has been previously reported. [/QB][/QUOTE]
X2 - think some trad shooters are fisherman also :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
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Just 67% efficiency with 10 gpp arrows? Imagine the handshock at 176 fps. Only 59% efficient :(
I remember seeing the test data of one of the hybrids (french I think) that stayed above 80% efficient at all the way down to 7 gpp. Thought that was pretty amazing for a longbow.
Originally posted by hybridbow hunter:
This Is the tested HH Wesley Spécial 80# @ 28" on a Hooter shooter, Dacron string. 28" DL (26.25" from string to pivot point of shelf). 7 différent weight shot 3 time each on shooting machine through 2 chrono in line, 1 meter from the 1st.
Read the arrow weight in gpp ( grain per pound) down and corresponding speed in fps on left on BLUE LINE
10 gpp speed mesured is 160 fps.
8 gpp speed Is 173 fps
12 gpp speed Is 152 fps
In our test the lightest arrow was 585 gr / 7.3 gpp and speed 176 fps
(http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx225/hybridbowhunter/HHill.jpg) (http://s758.photobucket.com/user/hybridbowhunter/media/HHill.jpg.html)
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this one is tested with genuine dacron string, using a modern string instead of dacron you can get few fps raising DE 2 to 3% upper (5 fps) but around 70% at 10 gpp is usual with those bows.
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I didn't intend to start and argument, rather to get a food for my own thoughts. But, Two4, you stepped right into the action with the thoughts that many have about these configurations. I did a quick calculation and to the best of my memory I've had at least 35 Hill style bows(most of them heavy weights), at least that many r/d, and at least 16 of the top custom hybrids. Along the way, I have aged and dropped in draw weight-now prefer 50-55# instead of 70-75! But, what is becoming very obvious to me now is that I have given up very little or nothing in performance and gained a lot in the things we claimed were the advantages of Hill style bows.
Hybridbow hunter gave the data for the lightest arrow chrono’d from an 80# bow. My chrono shows I get extremely close to that from some hybrids under 55#.(admittedly, mine is not a controlled test). Same arrow, same speed = same slug-ft/sec. I don’t find hybrids or r/d bows unstable or harder to silence. I do find much less vibration/hand shock with most hybrids, depending on string and setup(they truly may be more critical for such things.) Not trying to claim superiority for one over the other- all the designs have truly pleased me at one time or another, and the animals don’t know the difference. But, this old ____can’t shoot 75# well any more.
So, I’ll likely get another one some day, but my next Hill style bow is going to be around 50#.
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I have a two of Robertson longbows that are in the low 50s and shoot them no different than a Hill. I do not seem to have any stability issues with them. They are faster than most Hill style bows and also shoot stiffer arrows. I have seen more often than not when recurve shooters go for a Hill that they lose more draw length than they anticipated and often a fading release along with it. A while back at an archery range two guys shooting the same bow and supposedly drawing the arrow back to the same length got 10 to 15 fps difference in their average speed. If one watched closely the slower shooter actually lost draw during the release and then pulled his hand past his ear to resemble a strong release action, but it was too late, the arrow was already gone. I have had a number of bows that were just nice too shoot, but were simply dogs for speed and lets face it, if there is a choice and most other things are equal the faster bow is more fun for many of us. I gave a very average Hill to a friend that went on to shoot a number of deer with it, he loved shooting it. But when he had a chance to compare it to a faster Hill style bow at a shoot, the numbers on the chrono forced him to reassess his priorities. He wanted to get a faster bow that day and he almost hated his bow. After a recovery from his chrono experience, he made the wise choice and admitted the deer that he shot most definitely died with more than enough penetration. I have read that string follow bows shoot the same speed as other longbows, the ones that I have tried are noticeably slower than my current Hill style bows and my R/D bows. That has saved me money.
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Beware the man with one bow..... .....and no chronograph!
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Here is a link to a previous thread with some interesting data.
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=061557
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Come on...What is interesting in these datas exactly ?
the fact that we don't know the draw lenght of the archer for each bows?
the fact that we don't know if "55# @ 28" " is the marked weight or the weight on accurate scale AT DRAW LENGHT?
The fact that the reported speed loss while arrow weight increase on that Hill is according to physics a nonsense: going from 580 gr to 730gr with only minus 10 fps for an added 150 gr/ means an increase of +2.8 gpp ?
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I didn't do the test, Laurent. You could refute by doing a similar test with two like bows on a hooter shooter if you like. This is precisely why it is interesting
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Originally posted by hybridbow hunter:
Come on...What is interesting in these datas exactly ?
the fact that we don't know the draw lenght of the archer for each bows?
the fact that we don't know if "55# @ 28" " is the marked weight or the weight on accurate scale AT DRAW LENGHT?
The fact that the reported speed loss while arrow weight increase on that Hill is according to physics a nonsense: going from 580 gr to 730gr with only minus 10 fps for an added 150 gr/ means an increase of +2.8 gpp ?
Laurent, your own data for the Wesley shows a drop of 10 fps going from 10gpp to 12.3gpp. Or an increase in 2.3 gpp. So 10 fps loss from 2.8 gpp increase isn't impossible or defying physics. It just means that bow is extremely inefficient shooting the light arrows. A heavy string with lots of silencers or overbuilt limbs among other things will further reduce the speed with lighter arrows compared to heavy ones.
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NativeS you are right on the speed loss but on the wesley, 2,7 gpp increase from 10 gpp to 12.7 gpp drop the speed by 14 fps, 40% more speed loss than what GV reported though...
Now look at the reported drop from 7.3 gpp to 10.5 gpp on Gil datas: 28 fps for 3.2 gpp increase...
But indeed it seems to be less than usely seen: a 1.5 to 2 fps drop for 10 gr for bows in the 50# range
Look , if anybody shows me under strict controled trial (hooter shooter, 28" AMO DL, regular chrony) a standard HH wesley like Gil reported shooting arrows 202 [email protected] gpp OR 174 [email protected] gpp OR 165 [email protected] gpp, i pay the bow of his choice from any sponsor bowyer to him, as i am pretty sure NO ONE will get those numbers at 30" DL...
By the way i really don't care about all the performance myth carried with those straight bows. You guys can believe whatever you wish :deadhorse:
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Dagnabit All! Y'all are trying hard to take the fun out of my hobby.
I'm a engineer/scientist by training and employment for almost 20 years. Chronos are fun to play with and compare things. But a grain of salt has to be added, or a whole bag if it's different people on different days. And the absolute numbers are suspect on all of them I figure depending on the level of uncertainty you're trying to get and the date on your NIST traceable calibration and adherence to manufacturer procedures.
People getting wrapped around the axle because they don't believe other people's bows are as fast as they say or because they take offense to those who say their bow must be slower than they think it is need to remember why they got into traditional archery in the first place.
I believe someone once said that "Criticism is easy but....shooting should be fun."
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Is a donkey faster than a horse?
That´s the real question ... :confused:
Have fun my friends :D
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Good question, A cheetah is much faster than a bear, but what happens if you strap 200 pounds on top of them? Things change a little bit.
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What happens when you tape a cheetah to grandma's back?
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Originally posted by gringol:
What happens when you tape a cheetah to grandma's back?
?
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I will pull my spread sheet in regard to the Dale Dye, Howard Hill test I did. Have you tested a Hill longbow with the same weight arrows through a chrono against a recurve of the same draw weight. I would like to see the results. Mine showed that as the arrow got heavier the difference in speed between the two became close.
I wasted a lot of time and money testing bows through a chrono. I traded great bows away because they were a few feet slower than a different bow. I tested (back yard no machine and fingers) many bows, both longbows and recurves. All that did was screw up my shooting.
This is what I found. Most are close in speed and perform well enough for our needs. If a bow has an acceptable cast out to 40 yards and I don't have to over compensate for distance at 40 yards it is plenty fast enough for me. Find one you like and stick with it.
I am sorry I ever chronoed any bows. If you search for the fastest bow, you will spend a lot of money and waste a lot of time. Find one you like and shoot well and throw your chrono away.
When I said my Maulding shot in the 190s it did, at a archery shop using their chrono indoors. My friend had a Black Widow MA 70# @ 28 and shot the same arrow at 216.
You know what I say? Who cares. For what I do, which is hunt, most perform well enough for me.
My chrono days are over and for me it is a big waste of time.
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Tom do you have XCEL. I will forward the spread sheet. This computer doesn't have it. I had to forward it to this computer from my work computer. I kept a few of these around in case I wanted to plug in new numbers to find out my KE and momentum.
I used to use this spread sheet to calculate kinetic energy, momentum, gpp and bow efficiency. It is nice to know the momentum and kinetic energy of your set up depending on what you are hunting.
Send me an email if you do. You can open this and use it to plug in a few columns and it will calculate it for you.
I posted this in a thread here a long time ago. The numbers in this spread sheet will match the thread, if it still exists.
After this post I retire from the how fast, chrono threads. I found out all I need to know with all the bows I put through a chrono and I know by cast to 40 yards what lights my fire.
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Gil, Thanks.
Yes, I have xcel. Pls send to [email protected]. I'll look it over, but I agree with you. The chrono is just a tool and very often misleading. Our perception is very often misleading and I use my chrono as one way to check mine. But comparing someone elses claims to my own readings has proven foolish. As I've said I didn't start the thread to get into an argument.
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When you get the spread sheet look at the momentum, KE and bow performance as the arrow got heavier.
I won't do it on Tradgang, but that is always good for a feisty debate - momentum vs. Kinetic energy.
I did this testing for me and my curiosity. I only drew the bow back, shot an arrow, read the results and updated a spread sheet. It was meant for me so I have no reason to lie.
On the way
Gil