Today I had a close encounter with the finest looking blacktail I've ever seen, and it got me thinking about shot choices other than broadside. I was out in the late afternoon sitting in the forked bottom of a black oak tree when he came along. I'd been out three days waiting to see him, the plump 4 x 4 buck. My tree was in between two trails. He popped up onto the trail and started trotting towards me on the upper trail, much faster than I expected.
Before I could reposition he was walking right past me, no more than 2 yards, never having even glanced at me. That's the moment when I blew it. I tried to reposition to shoot as he walked away, and he spooked from the movement. Dang.
I don't know if I'll see him again, but if I do get a shot on him he will be my first deer.
So my question is, if all you are presented with is a deer quartering towards, or head on - is there any good shot? At the range I could have easily hit just about anything...given that my draw didn't give me away.
Anyhow, curious to hear thoughts or similar experiences.
From my experience, the margin of error is greatly decreased, the farther you get from broadside, and especially when that gets more quartering too. An animal can still be killed from these angles, but the size of the kill zone gets smaller. Heat of the moment, under stress of killing any animal, then I want to maximize all chances of error on my part and that means broadside or quartering away shots. Someone with more experiences or better shooting abilities may disagree, but I play it as safe as I can to make a good clean kill.
An animal you pass on without a good shot angle you may get a second chance at, but one you wound to run off and die unfound, you will never have another chance at.
The only shot I take is broadside or a very slight quarter away.
Do a search and you will find threads similar to this one.
Although there are many shots that CAN kill a deer, we try to preach only broadside and quartering away shots. Too much can and does go wrong already.
Sure, folks have killed them shooting for other spots. We have, and will continue to argue the finer points till we all die.
I find however, after teaching hunters education and bowhunter education for a long time, the biggest majority of the students I get, young, and old, don't really know where the pieces and parts of a deer actually are.
Example, everybody says aim behind the "shoulder" and they point to what would be the elbow on the deer. That puts your arrow in the back half of the lungs before you even shoot, and if you don't hit exactly where you aimed, you just may miss lungs completely.
Terry has some training. . I mean. . practicing aids / threads at the top of the POW WOW. They are great for refreshing if you really do already know, and an eye opener if you really aren't certain.
ChuckC
It's almost impossible to draw on adeer that close. So a more broadside shot is even more important.
See the thread.
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=130877
It shows why frontal shots,are such low percentage.
I'm just going to save you the frustration and say NO.
For every video on Youtube showing a shot like that and a dead animal, there are 50 that get away or die without being found.
Broadside or Quartering away Only!!!....
It sounds like you found a nice spot but your choice of stand location sounds like it would make it difficult to shoot a deer at a good angle.
I would move the stand to one side of the trail or the other based on the current wind direction.
Congrats on getting Heart pumping close on a tough animal to hunt and also making a good ethical decision not to shoot.
Thanks guys, very helpful words. You're right that I would much rather see him live another day than be lost because of a poor shot.
Another issue is the angle. At two yard from above your odds of hitting both lungs is almost nonexistent. I promise a one long hit deer is the worst to track. I have had them live for 2 days after a one lung hit and only found because of snow allowing me to stay on the trail. If u can't hit both lungs with a good margin for error let it walk. Typically the best option for both lungs is quartering away or broadside and no closer than 5 yards from a tree stand at normal height.
not your fault, been there, I choose to shoot the frontle, in my haste the tall grass pulled the shot down.
You say that this would be your first deer, and I think there has been some sound advice given. I wouldn't want a poor shot choice to give you a bad outcome and sour the experience for you. Your equipment has some effect on what you can get away with, but steeply angled shots are pretty tough out of a tree. After you have killed a few you will have a better idea. Best bet is to take a shot that you know you can put in the vitals, and give you enough of a blood trail to follow. For most this means broadside or slightly quartering away. There is a fine hog killing/mule deer killing machine from California that would argue otherwise.YMMV.
Some times the best shot you ever take is the one you let pass. I've killed elk at 35 yds and let them walk at 15. If it doesn't feel right. . .it isn't.
Mike
Mike Fedora told me a story kinda like that... but he got the deer. deer turned directly away from him at about 3 yds. said it all happened so fast that he didn't remember the shot. when he got to the deer, not very far away, he couldn't find any blood.... said he thought he must have scared it to death. no entry wound. when he went to start gutting he noticed the trickle of blood coming from the anus. needless to say the entire arrow was in the deer, and the deer had no more holes in it than it had previous to the encounter. doubt even mike would recommend that shot.
I am the one who will disagree other than what Mike said. Never shoot if it don't feel right. That said if I had the time and got drawn on the deer even quartering at me at that close, I would put if between the shoulder and brisket(lower neck) just in from point of shoulder, should get both lungs and diaphragm depending on exact angle. I have killed several with that same shot. Don Thomas writes of making thi shot quite a few times in his writing. Again it is all about how you feel at the moment, if the green light goes off in my head and it feels right I shoot. Shawn
After more years than I care to admit, I am still trying for my 1st trad deer. I feel good about the shots passed.
Stick to what you learn to be the right shot angles. There is good advise up top so i will not add to it. Also, don't let the size of the trophy be what makes you decide. Big bucks and young does all deserve the same consideration.
Well from my personal experience I can say DON'T take that shot. I still have bad dreams about the buck I shot and lost to that choice. Tall grass, 3 hour stalk to cover 150 yards. A buck of a lifetime.... This is hard for me to relive but I did learn my lesson and have passed on an elk and other deer since then because of the lesson I learned that day. I can honestly say I will probably never get a chance at a buck like that again. So after 3 hours of only taking one or two steps every time a car drove down the gravel road to cover the sound of my steps, this beautiful buck eventually got to his feet and walked directly to me. I was on the only trail in extremely thick weeds/grass and he was coming at me. All I could see was horns at 3 yards. When he looked to the side I thought I could tuck it in through the base of his neck. I shot and thought it was perfect. It wasn't. The arrow glanced off the ribs and the buck was gone. Many hours and days spent tracking with much help proved that deer survived my poor shot choice with only a superficial wound. I wish I waited for a better shot OR didn't take the frontal shot. Either way it would have been a better outcome.
My cousin took a shot like that and we found him two weeks later. He probably died fairly quickly but left zero blood trail and he was quickly swallowed up by the thick cover.
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a281/sf1oak/elk_zps405307a5.jpg) (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/sf1oak/media/elk_zps405307a5.jpg.html)
This would be a killing shot.
Although I have to say I would not give the advice that Shawn has given, sorry brother let me explain. I don't want to make an argument but I think this is a bad practice. We already have our superhero's on TV shooting big game at 40,50,60 and even further than that. Even if we have the ability to make these shots it's not a good idea to encourage others to take these shots. It's up to the shooter to know his or her ability and we must put limits on ourselves when it comes to shot placement and ethics. To answer your question I would have to echo most here and say a loud no. If a person has to ask this question you most likely need more experience in the field, and I can tell from your word you understand that, it's just frustrating. I've seen and made some shots I wish I could pull the arrow back, that's just growing and learning. The experience you gain in the woods are a life time of memories good and bad. I wish you luck brother I know this ghost will haunt you for a long time, spend time in the field hunt and work hard it all will come together.
Bruce
Depends on your set up. If you think you are going to get a frontal shot. Try to get as much angle as possible. A two blade magnus flying good on a 55lb + bow at the frontal angle is a pretty decent shot. You want to have an exit hole.
I always try to get my stand so the deer will be broadside. but we all know that sometimes it doesn't go according to plan.
Straight down is a shot that worries me. It's easy to stall in the spine of just get one lung.
Tedd
Joe my point exactly. I have made that shot several times and maybe I am lucky but never lost an animal with that shot. I am not talking straight on as some seem to think, I have gotten an exit all but one time I believe and non went very far. I would not attempt this shot at anything over 10-12 yards and this post was talking closer than that. Too each their own, but I feel it is not that tough a shot at close range and for guys say "oh too much can go wrong" I say the same on a broadside shot at say 25 yards. If you are confident in the shot, I say take it, if not by all means pass. I myself will no doubt take the shot if all feels good at the moment of truth. Shawn
By the way it better than trying to sneak it behind the shoulder and gut shooting an animal. Also a lot has to do with your ability to track and just be able to find deer in general. I hate to say it but I have made plenty of bad hits over the years for various reason, jumping the string, hitting an unseen branch, just flat out yank at the shot, I manage to find most of them because I read the animals body language after the hit, I than read the sign left, blood,hair gut and than determine my best course of action for recovering that animal. I am sorry but if we preach to much about only taking perfect shots than a lot of guys will never kill anything. Take shots you and only you are comfortable with and than use all your skills to recovery the animal. It really does not need to be as complicated as some seem to want to make it. Trad Archer, you kind of make my point at the end of your paragraph, it will not all come together if you never make up your mind to shoot. It takes experience and I have a bit and I know that if I waited when I was young for that perfect shot, It would of taken me years to kill m first deer with a bow. I am not advocating anything here but for one to decide what they are comfortable with and make up there own mind. I have no problem with him for not taking the shot but that was not his question. Shawn
The only quartering to shot I will take is the one where I think it is broadside and find out later it was not. I have done that a couple times. Maybe it turned a little on the shot or was just such a slight angle I didn't realize it until I saw the hole alignment.
I think a frontal shot to the base of the neck is a killing shot. Lower in the sternum or into the ribs could be a problem. Finding a blood trail with a frontal hit will be the trick unless it is a high angle shot, and doing that without hitting a deer too low, in the head or shoulder if it moves would be difficult with a trad bow. I do know someone who did it, but he would say to this day he should never have done it. He lost his head on the biggest buck he ever saw. It was very close and looking back at a doe during the rut so totally distracted, and the shot worked out. He was lucky and would say so.
I do see the point about the offset frontal shot. That could work if you are a good shot and the animal is standing in the same spot when it hits. For me, I will leave that shot to gun hunting although I never took that shot with a gun. Deer just move to fast for me to try anything but an ideal shot angle with a bow.
The problem with espousing shots like this is that some of us are attempting to pass on information to folks with less experience and to pass on realistic expectations.
Fact is you can shoot a deer in the kidney and get good blood and death, you can slide a sharp broadhead in from behind and sever a femoral artery, great blood, quick death, you can put one between its eyes and drop it on the spot, if you put it right behind its skull you will likely drop it, a liver hit will kill it and likely leave a good blood trail if you get two holes. SHooting straight down into the chest will maybe get you a heart and one lung, and you may even drop it with a spine shot. Get a bit lucky and put an arrow thru its guts but sever the aorta and it will bleed out quickly, albeit not likely much trail. Should we be practicing these shots ? It opens the game up to even more dead deer possibilities !
Lots of ways CAN do it and HAVE been done it. That doesn't mean I myself am gonna tell those that are asking that they are a good viable shot to take.
We sit here every day and zitch about some folks (oh, but not us) taking 60, 70, 80 yard shots, but hey, they do it and often kill stuff. Its right there on the video. Should we be saying that's OK to the folks asking for guidance ?
Some of us (I am not claiming this status) are very experienced hunters, been doing it a long time, can do things others can't and pushing the envelope at that point is something you yourself can do. . but don't tell the new folks that this is OK. Once they have experience, both at shooting and at shooting at game, as well as with game animal physiology they can make other choices.
ChuckC
I think something that has to be considered is will you feel good about yourself if you take the shot. i am not going to lie, i have taken shots that i wish i didnt. out of those 3 shots i only found 1 of them and im a pretty good and determined trailer. But after all 3 of those shots i remeber saying to myself "man, im an idiot, i know better, i should of waited or let it walk, stupid!!!!" Its been many years since those shots. I remeber them like it was yesterday. I will not take a "LOW MARGIN" shot ever again. If killing an animal was the most important reason for me to be in the woods I would not be carrying a traditional bow. I have passed countless opportuninties on animals becasue the angle was bad or they were right under me and every night i go to bed feeling good about the kind of hunter I am. Im my opinion that last statement is the most important descion maker. If you can know you will not be happy with yourself for taking a shot and it going bad, dont take the shot. Being in the woods is about experiences you have. I would like the least amount of bad experiences as possible even if it means letting a critter pass by.
I dont mean to offend or upset anyone that feels differently and most likely a person like that is a much better shot under pressure than i am. But for my capablities and peice of mind, i choose no low margin shots.
Hard to argue with Shawn's logic. It comes down to knowing your capabilities in all facets of the hunt.
It is fine for new folks, they should shoot enough to know wether they can make the shot or not ecspecially at very close range. Sorry but I know a lot of folks on here waiting to kill their first anything and if we preach only perfect shots, guess what they will be waiting a long time. I am not advocating taking crazy long shots or head on shots. We are talking about the shot that was asked about in the original question. I think he did the 100% right thing if he was not comfortable with it, but he obviously is wondering about it now. I am saying the next time that same shot presents itself he may feel differently and take that shot, which quite honestly is not all that risky at that close. You need to get experience and guess what, if you are that new at the game, than broadside shot at 20 yards may have a lot worst outcome, shoulder, guts whatever. Deer arenot that hard to kill, sorry look at their skeleton, only one real hard part and thatis the shoulder and leg bone at that joint. Do as you feel you need to do, I still sayif you keep waiting for that perfect shot, you may wait a very long time. i myself like to kill deer and have done so witha ton of different shot angles, which not a whole lot out of the 150 plus deer I have killed were perfectly broadside. Shawn
Shaun, that's part of the game. You can say the same thing about shooting at longer range, or thru thick brush or anything else. Why not try it, you may never kill a deer if you don't just fling arrows.
Yup, just stick an arrow thru it, it will be fine.
ChuckC
Im with Shawn, if it feels right and your confident about your ability, take the shot. I like to practice those head on shots you just never now when you need to make it happen.