I wanted to take my archery skill to the next level this year, well I sure did, the next level is worse !
Other years I considered myself ok at 10 -12 yards, at 20 yards it was not pretty. I knew this & kept myself at 10 yards when hunting. Basically I sat on top of a deer trail. I learned that it is hard to draw on a deer at 10 yards, not impossible, but pretty tough to do.
This year I said it's time to change & spend more time flinging arrows. I started off at 10 yards (pretty easy shooting) but I worked on my form using a 45 pound bow instead of my typical 50 pounders. I am now pretty good at canting the bow, pulling back to a full draw (last year I struggled with that) and holding my anchor even after the shot. I was getting bored with shooting at 10 yards because it was too easy.
Last week I said it's time to take what I have been working on to the level I want it to be as I have the basics & my form down. I moved the 18 x 18 target to 20 yards & started flinging.
By now you already know what happened, my 45 pound bear supermag was sending arrows into the ground about 6 inches in front of the target. (I place an 18 x 18 "block" target on the ground so bullseye is only 9 inches from the ground)
I knew what was going on, I had spent all summer shooting at 10 yards & I'm dialed in instinctively for that yardage. I figured I will just keep flinging at 20 yards until I get dialed in and can hit the 20 yard target as good as the 10 yard one.
After a week of flinging 30 - 50 arrows a night I am still not impressed with my shooting. I will not hunt at 20 yards if this is my accuracy at that distance. Usually 1 arrow out of 5 will completely miss the 18 x 18 target & the other 4 are all over it using the whole 18 x 18.
Should I only have moved out 15 yards ? Or should I just keep at it & hope I get tuned in ?
Thanks,
Dan
Back in the mid-1960's when I taught myself to shoot I started at 5 yards and moved back 5 at a time when I was shooting tight groups. Made it to 33 yards (width of my backyard).
I think you are correct, a 50% increase (from 10 to 15) is plenty of new distance.
My favorite practice when I got good at further distances was to start at 5 and shoot one arrow. If it hit my spot I rewarded myself by moving back 5 for another shot.
Having written all this. This summer I shot at 30 and 40 to make 20 easy.
I don't shoot instinctive though. I was always a gap shooter (thought I was instinctive when I was a teenager).
I think you have already named your real problem.
"After a week of flinging 30 - 50 arrows a night I am still not impressed with my shooting."
Just "flinging" arrows WILL NOT LET YOU IMPROVE. When you PRACTICE you should be working on something specific. Your thread title is correct, some coaching will go a long ways for you in my opinion. A Super Magnum is 48 inches long and CAN be a real challenge to shoot well for many folks. It might not be giving you a fair chance to improve.
I also agree with Bowwild, increase your distance 2 or 3 yards at a time and not all the way to 20 in one jump. Concentrate on shot execution and improving that -- don't try to hit a "bull's eye" just shoot for form and feel.
"Keeping at it and hoping" won't do much for you.
Arne
Thanks for the replies !
Arne, I use the word flinging very casually. I have kept my form that I worked on at the 10 yards. I still cant the bow, I still come to full draw at the corner of my mouth & my fingers are still at the corner of my mouth after I release. I do stand at a 45 degree to the target but I am a hunter & not a marksman so I don't get too hung up on standing 45 degrees to the target as hunting situations do not always allow that.
I do pick a spot, I have a white thumbtack in the black target that I focus on (pick a spot) I think I have the form & fundamentals down.
I know the criticism of the Bear supermag being a short bow, I only draw 26 inches so I don't think the problem is as bad for me as it might be for some. I do understand the concept of a longer bow being more stable & easier to control. But my smaller size does not like the long bows for hunting situations.
I should not have used the word flung, I do pick a spot & maintain my form that I perfected at the 10 yard range.
It sounds like 20 yards might have been too big of a next step, hunting is only a month & a half away, I hope I did not spend too much of the summer shooting at 10 yards while working on canting the bow, picking a spot, coming to full draw at the corner of my mouth & then not "flinging" my arm after the shot.
All advice is appreciated, especially from a level 4 NTS coach !
Thanks,
Dan
So how are you doing back at the 10 yard mark?
With all the time spent you should be stacking them to the point that your afraid of damaging arrows.
I still have a problem moving from concentrated 10 or 15 yard shooting and then moving to 20 for the first shot. But it come together quickly.
All your practice no form,and release this summer should now be more instinctive. Now you should be thinking of only aiming.
Fewer perfect arrows arrows makes for a better practice session.
And someone,to help coach would,work wonders.
Like moebow said but that is just the start, we do not know enough about your set up. Let's make sure your bow and arrows and you are in tune. I personally do not think 10 yards to 20 is that much of a difference. There is a lot more going on here. It sounds to me like its bad practice and bad habits, to be blunt. You are putting the work into trying and should be seeing better results. Shooting every night is great. Tell us how you start your sequence from start to finish what you are working on when you practice. Better yet let me tell you how I started. Maybe some other members will do the same.
I read a book by Byron Ferguson Become the Arrow, and some I cannot remember the name of. I talked to other archers that shoot traditional bows.
This is what I did. I started by putting stakes in the ground for my feet left and right to make sure my feet were not too far apart. I put a set at 10 and a set at 20 yards. I practiced my release for many hours just letting the string fall from your fingers and if done right your hand should end up just behind your ear.
I practice making sure I found my back, it is different than finding this with a compound bow, the same but different. Follow through with your shot don't drop your bow arm after you release. Don't think about how far the shot is this takes away your advantage of shooting a bow instinctive. Practice shooting by going out and killing some stumps this is great fun and great practice remembering all you have worked on.
You know some will agree and some will criticize me for saying this but it is true in my opinion. All of this work is awesome but if your bow and arrows are not tuned together everything else is in vain, all you gain is frustration and lack of confidence.
Have you tried taking a video of yourself? I thought I had my form down fairly well, but it was a real revelation to see myself (I want to say "on tape" but that dates me :) )
I thought I had a pretty clean release, but seeing what it actually looked like helped me realize that I was still plucking the string. I was also still using more arm than back muscles.
You know what they say about a picture being worth a thousand words. It's truly enlightening.
Arnie had a post on the FORM forum mentioning a site that lists archery coaches. I looked and there are 4 within a 3-hour drive from me. I'll bet there might be some up in the thumb too.
http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Archery/Certification/Certification-Program
Pick a spot a small spot. It sounds like you are shooting at the whole target. If you have to get some tiny 1" stickers and put one of them on the target and shoot at that spot and that spot only. This will help you to pick a spot and hit it after a while. Shawn
I think part of the frustration/addiction is that for the most part we know what we need to do in our shooting and feel we otta be able to figure it out ourselves. Getting some instruction is probably the single smartest thing we can do. Best of luck, Tom.
Thanks for all the replies everyone ! Your giving me a lot to think about.
I see a common theme is the need of a coach, I live in very rural michigan (the tip of the thumb) Bay City is not very big but is the nearest city of any size & is an hour away (I doubt there is a coach there) I'm not rich (but I'm not broke either) with that said I will look at Arne's link on a possible coach, but to drive 4 hours round trip there & back to get coaching could not happen too many times.
I purchased Fred Asbells book & DVD on instinctive shooting & have used that as my guide for form & concept of instinctive shooting. I have also listened to the few pointers that the Wensel boys have in their DVD's. I have a trad buddy a couple miles away who coached me on all my mistakes last year, things like short drawing, not anchoring, hand moving all over the place after my release. Not canting the bow' etc........... That's why this year I have not been doing much shooting with him & only shooting at 10 yards to work on my form. I think I'm ok on that & yes I use the words "I think" as I'm not 100% sure without videoing or having someone watch. I will give my buddy a shout this morning to help me, he is not a coach but he knows the basics. Plus he just went to see Chuck @ two tracks yesterday to pick up his new Ambush so I will check that out :-)
I have a 3d stump course in my backyard (remember, I live in Hicksville Michigan & love it ! )
I cut lanes & a trail in my woods outback & have 2 liter plastic pop bottles on sticks at various yardages from 12 to 25 yards. I have not shot that this year as I have only been shooting 10 yards working on form this year.
I use a white thumbtack on a black target to aid me in picking a spot, I shot a touch better when I concentrate hard on that at 20 yards, but I'm still all over the 18 x 18 target.
Another theme in the replies I am seeing is my setup, that might possibly be a concern as I have not spent a lot of time in regards to that. I use cedar arrows at 55 - 60 spine in my 45 pound Bear supermag, I also use these same arrows in my 50 pound Supermag. I know the argument on short bows but I'm a short guy with only a 26 inch draw. A 60 inch bow is almost as big as me & is very clumsy in the woods hunting, a kids or ladies bow is small so I don't think that supermag is all that out of proportion compared to a 6 foot guy with a 29 inch draw shooting the beloved Bear kodiac ?
I will see if a coach is anywhere's near me, I will have my buddy watch me shoot today & I better dig out some paper for paper tuning, I have not did that in 30 years !
Thanks for all the replies (coaching)
Dan
I just looked up the link for a coach that bladepeek posted, nearest one is Bay City (2 hour round trip) closer than I expected & I would be willing to drive that.
Anyways, she is a level one coach, is that all I need for hunting ? I don't see me going to the olympics anytime soon !
But I see there are 5 levels so it makes me wonder if level 1 is enough.
I googled her name for references & nothing comes up. My worse fear is she might be an anti hunter ! In today's world you could easily be an archery coach, but be an anti hunter.
Thanks,
Dan
When I'm working on form, I shoot at a (big) blank bag, with a piece of plain burlap thrown over it. Nothing to aim at.
Arne Moe is your best hope at fixing your form (guess how I know, mine was broken in four places).
Ok then, what I hear is you are short and only have a 26 + or – draw. You are shooting a 50 LBS bow and a 45 LBS bow you have arrows spine for a 55-60 arrow spine. The bear bow should be 50 LBS at 28" meaning with a short draw you are not shooting 50 LBS more likely 41 LBS 28" draw – 3 LBS for every inch that's 3 inches or 9 LBS. The arrows may not be the problem but most likely they are, you have a short draw and the arrows are giving you faults negative, at 10 yards your arrows are probably telling the story. You need to look at the shaft after shooting are they nock left right or up down, most likely left right. You see at 20 yards the arrows are all over the place because I think they are over spined and should be showing that. I suggest going with carbon arrows at first until you have proper form and can find a spine that is correct. Then you can cross reference the arrows for proper spine and arrow weight, field point weight.
:knothead: :banghead:
I'm heading outside right now to shoot some paper to confirm this, I have a feeling you might very well be correct as I had the 55-60 spine arrows from a 50 pound fast flight string setup I used previously. The old Bear 45 pound supermag does not even have fastflight string. These arrows might very well be over spined. I was just researching paper tuning as it has been 35 years since I have done that.
Thanks for the advice,
Dan
Looking through the various posts, I see just a huge amount of guessing and reliance on your buddy's analysis of your problems. He may be a good buddy and an excellent archer, but maybe his shooting style is not what you want yours to be, or maybe you like his style and think you are doing what he suggests but not achieving it.
Ask him to video you with his cell phone (probably not the best choice of video equipment, but a whole lot better than nothing). That way you can see what your shooting looks like "from the outside". None of us sees ourselves as accurately as a camera. I can look at myself in the mirror and never see the gut my wife swears is hanging over my belt. Ask him to text or e-mail the video to you so you can study it closely and repeatedly. You may see something you can fix yourself, or at least you can show it to someone in a position to offer some clear advice. That's definitely not me, but there are several people on this forum that can do a great job of breaking down your form problems into specific things to work on. Believe me, they can save you a huge amount of frustration. Sure helped me concentrate on my problems.
Dan,I looked up the arrow spine for woods at 26" draw, for the 50 LBS bow you should be shooting 40-45 and for the 45 LBS bow it would be 35-40. I thought I had some carbons to send you but looked and only have 60-75 spines obviously these will not work. Please I have spent hundreds of dollars trying to find the perfect arrow for my silvertip. Before spending money on new arrows let's do a lot of work on what you have to answer some questions.
Thanks for the advice traditional-archer, after paper tuning I think your on to something !
And yes, I will take your advice Bladepeek, I left a voice mail on my buddies phone (told him to read this post first :-) before calling back ). He is no professional coach by any means but he can point things out & do a video. I now think the arrow spine might be a large contributor to my problems though.
I did a paper test, shot 6 feet from the paper, stop was 36 inches from the paper, looks like nock low, spine high. I was getting consistent tears so my release must be consistent :-)
I'm not convinced on the nock low as I'm 5/8 high right now, thinking the heavy spine is influencing that as I just spine checked that arrow & it was 59 spine on an Ace spine master.
I'm thinking traditional-archer is on to something................
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t76/dan-45/photo-1.jpg) (http://s157.photobucket.com/user/dan-45/media/photo-1.jpg.html)
The fire pit makes a good quick paper tune setup !
I'm off to threerivers archery to order a spine kit, I need to make things happen as hunting season is October 1st, a 10 yard self imposed max shot is not easy to do.
And yes I will stick to the 10 yard rule if things don't come around, it's why I didn't get my deer last year.
Dan
First off you have to paper tune from at least 12ft. or 15ft.. 6ft. is way to close and the arrow is still going thru paradox so yo may get a fallse reading. If your arrows are 28"s and the 45# is rough 40-41#s at your draw you should be shooting a 50-55# spine with 125 grain point outof that Bear. I think at ten yards you should be smacking arrows together so there is definitely something wrong. Have you checked your eye dominance, you may be left eye dominant and that could be a big problem. Shawn
Will try the paper tune at 12 - 15 ft. & see what happens. I am ok on the eye dominance as I looked into that last year.
Edit: just come in from trying paper tuning at 12 - 15 feet, perfect holes using a 52 spine arrow I had laying around ?
I guess now I need to shoot this one arrow at 20 yards & see how it goes ?
I will also confirm the 12 - 15 foot rule as the info I had saved said 6 feet ? Between paper tuning & video recording my form I might get this figured out !
Thanks for all the advice / coaching !
Dan
I think we probably all agree that those arrows are not properly tuned to your bow. Having said that, I can take GT1535s and GT5575s - one too weak and one too stiff and shoot them at 20 yds. If I don't intentionally correct for the known mismatch, I will get two groups. One will be on the too weak side and one will be on the too stiff side. But, there will be two groups - not sprayed all over the target. I think that video will point out some form errors which, once corrected, will make tuning the bow/arrow combination much easier.
Dan, As far as the closest "instructor" being a Level 1 you might want to pass on that. I teach many L 1 instructors BUT they are VERY entry level. The L1 is really for younger kids (15 or older) that are going to be "summer camp" archery instructors. Many Level 2 instructors (18 or older) have a good working knowledge, but they too, are really entry level. They have a better exposure to teaching archery but that class is really the first one where the new "instructor" gets a first exposure to the NTS.
Like I say, many L 2 instructors are very good with a lot of experience but that might take some "shopping" to find the right one.
IF you can, try to hold out for a L3 or higher. At the L3 and higher levels they are also getting a good dose of working with individuals rather than the "group" approach for the L1 & 2s. Per USA Archery, they aren't "coaches" until L3 or higher.
Arne
I'll add this:
QuoteOriginally posted by dan d:
Anyways, she is a level one coach, is that all I need for hunting ? I don't see me going to the olympics anytime soon !
But I see there are 5 levels so it makes me wonder if level 1 is enough.
Terry Green says it best!! Form is form, how you use it ( STYLE) is individual. Just going to a trained NTS coach will help with your form. Bone on bone alignment, back tension, etc. Then, once you are getting that, whether you hunt and shoot from "hunting condition" stances or shoot target is just how you USE your form.
Arne
Thanks for the explanation Arne !
Both your posts clarified a lot for me, I will go back to that website & look for a level 3 or higher. I saw there were quite a few within a 4 hour round trip.
I might of found a few more oddball low 50 spine arrows to try out. They do paper tune a lot better than the ones in the 60 spine range did. I googled a few more links on paper tuning & most of them say to be at 6 feet ?
I must admit this post is taking me to the next level of just flinging arrows. I'm learning a lot here.
Thanks !
Dan
Don, Shawn is very good at putting spine to arrow to bow, I have followed his suggestions here on TradGang in helping others with arrow flight problems. Take his advice when it comes to arrow setup. I'm a carbon arrow shooter and have not ventured into wood arrows yet.
QuoteOriginally posted by Traditional-Archer:
Don, Shawn is very good at putting spine to arrow to bow, I have followed his suggestions here on TradGang in helping others with arrow flight problems. Take his advice when it comes to arrow setup. I'm a carbon arrow shooter and have not ventured into wood arrows yet.
I just followed his advice & ordered 6, 50-54 spine arrows, I am shooting the lone 52 spine I found quite well ! I was getting a headache studying them spine charts !
Thanks for the advice everyone !
Dan