The charts indicate I am weak. the fletched arrows are flying pretty good.
I am afraid to keep cutting. Is the desired result to have all 4 arrows in the same hole?
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I am new to carbons tuning. what would you do?
I would like to add, I have cut off 3/4 of an inch and the bare shafts have moved over more to the left about 2-3 inches from where I started.
Also I want to stay with a 250 grain point to use for hunting.
Charlie,
Try this info from Ol's sight. It discusses fletched shafts compared to bare shafts.
http://www.acsbows.com/bowtuning.html
Charlie,
Please supply more info such as bow and how close to center it is cut. What weight points are you using and how far are you shooting? Any other info that you can supply would be helpful. The object is not to have them in the same hole, but grouped together.
Rick
The consistent bare shaft mark relative to the fletched shafts provides a decent position where BH tipped shafts would mark.
Stacy, I have been looking at that site, that's why I figured they were weak.
Rick, I am shooting a 59 Kodiak replica. 53@28. I draw 28 3/4. It is cut to center but the leather strike plate has me off center a smidge.
The target in the picture is at 20 yards.
Friend, I plan to use these for hunting. I have magnus snuffers. I want to make sure they will fly the same
I am just afraid of cutting too much.
Do you guys recommend I keep cutting a 1/4 inch at a time? what size group is acceptable?
Charlie,
I'll tell ya exactly what you need to do. This is the same exact thing I do with every bow I have had since I saw the guide on O.L.'s site. Add material to your side plate, when showing weak, a little bit at a time until you get the desired results. Works like a charm and it's much better than cutting anymore length from your arrows. Trust me on this, bro, especially since you're shooting that group at 20 yards. Since that's the case, you're not too far from perfect. Bare shafts just a tad to the right and low compared to your fletched arrows is perfect.
Is it a Bear 59er? Cuz I'm having the same issue. I can't find an arrow stiff enough, I wouldn't keep cutting your carbons, cuz I don't know that It'll make much difference, your groups are way closer than mine. I found the shortest stiffest aluminum (2413@28") and I'm still bareshafting weak! I've tried different strings, brace heights. If I go to a light head it seems better but would rather not change heads. My Carbons shoot good out of my other bows so that's why I refuse to cut them shorter. Good luck keep us informed on what you get to work.
Charlie, please give it a try, what I told you above. That's how I am able to shoot the same arrows out of the last 3 bows I have owned plus I shoot the same arrows out of my Browning Wasp recurve and my Kanati LB as well. I just adjust the thickness of my strike plate, so I like my arrows to be on the weak side to begin with so I can add material to the strike plate instead of taking material off. It's worked like a charm for me so far. :archer2:
What is the spine of your arrows and what is the current length of them?
At 20 yards, you're pretty darn close! Are your fletched shafts the same length, and have you tried shooting a broadhead yet? With those results, I'd bet a broadhead will be pretty close, if not spot on. When I get that close, I'll only cut an 1/8" if my broadheads aren't flying perfectly. If you don't want trim anymore off the shaft, building out the strike plate, or trying a little harder strike plate material is a great option. 20 is good, but 30 will tell the whole story.
The picture shows two fletched arrows almost touching and two bare shafts right on top of each other, that's very good accuracy. If you had the right combination of spine, length, and point weight both the fletched shafts and bare shafts would all be together. Like you said your arrows are showing weak. I like to have my bare shafts and fletched impacting together, others like a slightly weak reaction...but I think that's probably a little weak for anybody, especially at only 20 yards. With your shooting skills I would do your bare shaft tuning at 25-30 yards if possible. Get bare and fletched grouping together at 30 yards and you know you are well tuned.
Rather than cut your shafts back I would try lighter points just to see how weak your shafts are. Even if you don't want to use the lighter points it's cheaper than cutting arrows and would give you a lot of information. I would throw the lightest point I had on there and see what happens. In other words, try to make them too stiff, if you can you know somewhere in the middle is optimal. Sometimes it saves a lot of time to make a big change rather than sneak up on it. Changing point weight is easy and reversible if it wasn't the right move. If you find you only need to go down 25-50 grains, cutting might work or you could play with side plate thickness or brace height. If you need to go down to very light points, down 100 or more grains, it might be time to think of stiffer shafts.
What are the details of your arrow now, spine and length? I have several recurves in that draw weight range (50#-59# at my 29" draw length) and I can shoot the same 31" .340 carbon out of all of them just by tailoring the point weight to each bow (150-250grs.).
I agree with ishoot4thrills. Easiest way to tune for me.
The responses so far have been helpful. Thank you. I will play more with it after work. especially the shift in point weight. I dont mind cutting the arrows but its a good suggestion and makes a lot of sense.
For those who asked, I am shooting a 55/75 GT arrow with a regular 12 grain insert and 250 grain point. They are cut to 31 1/2 inches so far.
I have looked closely at the bow and seems to have something under the strikeplate already. How far out should I consider building?
Charlie,
You might want to try a piece of velcro for the strike plate or a tooth pick under your present plate. Both methods work equally well.
Rick
I agree with Easykeeper as well.In OL's tuning information he stressed testing with point weight before any cutting.It will sort things out very quickly.
Charlie,
I would try a tooth pick under the side plate. If that doesn't do the trick for you, I would be surprised. Changing point weight would be my second guess. Cutting more off is an option, but the other fixes are reversible, and if you cut too short, well............
Building out the side plate, as mentioned, is really a great way to get that last 3 or 4 inches of weak out.
Then try 30 yards.
Joshua
Charlie,
To experiment, you might try building out the side plate with a few layers of tape, adding another layer or two at a time until you get things settled. That is easy to adjust and change as you go. Once you like the bare shaft group you can then transfer that tape pad to under your side plate. Then you are done.
Good luck, my friend.
Joe
If you are nervous that cutting will help try changing point weight or building out the shelf first. If you drop point weight and the groups come together then you know that a stiffer shaft will help. You can confidently then go back up to 250 and cut a 1/4" and reevaluate. Same goes for the shelf if done in a temporary sort of way, like what smokin joe describes.
OK folks it sounds like I have 2 smart options at this point. I will give them a try and report back. If the first trick works, I will quit there. First I will try the strike plate. Then will play with point weight.
I will eventually use 250 grains up front for hunting.
OK I built up the strike plate a bit. The first pic was before, the second is Now. suggestions at this point? Is this acceptable? Perhaps I should keep building up the strike plate?
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Charlie, PM me with your draw length and what shafts you are shooting along with their spine. I will get ya on the money. I am pretty good at this! Shawn
Charlie,
If you were to add feathers to the two bare shafts I believe that all four arrows would be right together. Why not try fletching them and shooting your broadheads. If you aren't satisfied you can always take the feathers back off.
Rick
QuoteOriginally posted by grouseshooter002:
Charlie,
If you were to add feathers to the two bare shafts I believe that all four arrows would be right together. Why not try fletching them and shooting your broadheads. If you aren't satisfied you can always take the feathers back off.
Rick
Thanks Rick, I was thinking to just fletch them all up but wanted them to be tuned right and didnt want "flaws" hidden by the fletching. in all the bare shafting reports they were talking about getting the bare shafts to group with the fletched shafts. I cannot seem to get that result.
I built up my strike plate and the fletched arrows moved left and the bare shafts stayed right. This is at 28 yards, I am blinded by the sun any closer right now.
Maybe I am putting to much into it?
Go back to the original strike plate thickness (so you are only changing one thing at a time), then put on the lightest point you have and see what happens. You are just diagnosing at this point, not committing to the lighter point.
PM'ed ya bud. You are too stiff no doubt about it. Your bow would need to be 60#s at your draw to get where you want to be. You are still ok, just try what I PM'ed ya! I am shooting a new Caribow but past center and it is 54#s at my 28" draw and I am shooting a 29.5" .500 spine with 190 grains up front. Trust me, why would you shoot an arrow spined to be cut to 28-29" and shot from 60# compound bows out of a 50-55# recurve. It can be done but you need to add an awful lot of point weight. You are getting an opposite reaction cause you are way too stiff!! Shawn
HHHmmmmm.....never before thought about what Shawn is saying. Maybe he's on to something. I guess I never really saw what spine arrows you were shooting until I reread all of the posts. Yes, it would seem as though those arrows would be too stiff. Try going the opposite way instead and remove everything from the strike plate and see what happens then. You'd better be taking lots of breaks during the process before you get too tired also.
QuoteOriginally posted by Easykeeper:
Go back to the original strike plate thickness (so you are only changing one thing at a time), then put on the lightest point you have and see what happens. You are just diagnosing at this point, not committing to the lighter point.
went to 75 grains, tried them at 100, 125, 145, 225 and 250. all the same.
here is 100, 125 and 145.
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Makes sense Shawn, Thats why all my results are showing weak???
Actually Shawn recommended a weaker shaft, your 5575 is a .400. He is correct though that if you are getting any kind of contact from too stiff of a shaft it can appear as a weak reaction at the target and during tuning.
I would still guess you are weak, I always need a .340 in that bow range (heavy points though), but you can tell by the recommendations you are getting that there is really no accurate way to predict spine, there are just too many variables...not the least of which is our personal form. What Shawn recommended would never work in my bow (50#29") but obviously does for him. Might be a good idea to try a different spine.
I'm surprised you didn't get some visible change with that span of point weight. I've found that once you are close you can see a stiff vs. weak reaction just 25 grains on either side of correct but if you are way off nothing seems to change or make sense. The thing is...are you off weak or stiff. I think you will need to try a different spine, maybe buy two or three to experiment with.
Good luck, bare shaft tuning can drive you nuts, but when you get it right you have fabulous arrow flight, and your bows will be as quiet and efficient as it can be... :thumbsup:
Impossible that he is weak. I know a lot of guys including myself that shoot .400 spine cut to 29-30"s out of 62-65# bows tdrawn to 28-29"s and high performing bows and we need anywhere from 225 at a minimum to 325 grains up front depending on the bow. Think about it. I know several guys shooting 425 grain point weight and .500 spine cut to 29"s out of 50# longbows. Our own Rob(moderator)does!! I have been experimenting for 17 years with carbons and most times get guys very close, after hundreds and hundreds of PM's on the subject. Shawn
Taking Shawn's suggestions to Heart, Have 100 Grain brass inserts coming this weekend.
Until then I will shoot wood.
It really is not that bad. I think you will be much better off with and arrow that is a tad weak as opposed to too stiff. Try some broad heads and see where you come in.
OK played with the set up a bit.
Moved up to 350 grains up front. Made a new string, played with brace height and nock height. I am happy where I am at right now.
I will keep the temporary nock point on for when I foot the shaft, and shoot broadheads, just in case an adjustment is needed.
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Thanks for the help.
There you go!
That's the ticket
QuoteOriginally posted by Shawn Leonard:
...You are too stiff no doubt about it. Your bow would need to be 60#s at your draw to get where you want to be. ...You are getting an opposite reaction cause you are way too stiff!! Shawn
I tried Shawns advice and he is correct. False weak reading from carbons is common. The diff in how my bareshafts and fletched arrows fly once I went to a weaker spine, same weight up front, is astounding- night and day and I thought I was close before and cutting a stiffer spined arrow even more was what the bareshafts were telling but it was wrong-a false weak.
Joshua, shooting 400's over 31" long with 250ish up front from a 52# @31" center cut R/D longbow.
Replace your side plate with a martin soft pad and use double sided carpet tape to attach, I would be willing to bet 1/8 more off the arrow and the new side plate will be spot on. then if your left to right is off a little with fletched arrows you can add the double sided tape one piece at a time, this will move the arrow left, if your right handed
Thanks guys.
Keith it was nice meeting you at Denton even though it was brief.
I shot broadheads today and they were hitting right where the field points were out to 25 yards. I was keeping everything in a tennis ball size area which is very very good for me.
I am happy with the current set up for hunting.
I had ya about figured out huh, Charlie? They should hit like a truck for ya! Shawn
Shawn, you hit the nail on the head. I could probably go up in weight and still be ok but if My release is good these things are shooting straight and going through 2 foam targets and into my plywood shed door. Just what I want with a big 3 blade head through a deers chest!
Even if my release isn't perfect, the worst I get is a tiny bit of porpoise but good placement none the less.
Thanks for all your help bud! :thumbsup:
Porpoise is nock height issue a 1/16th either way may help bud! Shawn