I have not spent much time learning about bare shaft tuning. My arrows fly nice and my Broad heads hit he same place as my field points. i shoot a Dalaa 17" riser with Border Hex 6 long limbs. 50lbs at 28 ". I am drawing 29" so i am at 52 lbs. I switch back and forth from CX 150 with 150 grains up front to CX 250 with 200 grains up front.I shoot off the shelf and my arrows hit right where I look. I do not notice a big difference in cast till beyond 30 yards. Neither one of these arrows (bare shaft) hit the same spot on the target and are flying terrible even at 10 yards. What is a realisitic goal and how much effort should be put in to bare shaft tuning. I can keep my broad head arrows on a pie plate all day out to 35 yards and have terrific flight to the naked eye.
Thanks, Randy
Well,the whole purpose of any type of tuning is to get your broadheads flying well and impacting right with your field points.If you can hit well with broadheads out to 35 yds,I would say you are there.I can't explain why the bare shafts aren't flying well.
Hey Buddy I just paper tune for me it is easier and tells me exactly what is going on. Do it like you did when you shot compound. Widow
Thanks guys, I was just amazed how bad my bare shafts flew. i was building some arrows and did a close range test just because I was curious. My compound buddies are paper tuning every weekend in my shop. What is a realisitic goal on paper. I cannot imagine getting a bullet hole like a wheel bow when you are shooting fingers off the shelf.
Rick you can and I do get bulet holes with my setup if you have good form and release its no problem. Your left and right tears you adjust arrow spine and of course up and down adj knock. Widow
Thanks Darren , The next time the guys get the paper rack out I will give it a try.
My fletched arrows make bullet holes in paper. 1" tear is ok according to the fita coaching guide
How far away from the paper are you starting ??
9 to 10 feet from paper is were I stand and after I get it good there sometimes I check it at longer distance. If you want to get together and do it sometime Rick just give me a call.
Will do
Thanks,
Bare shaft tuning is really all I do, I skip paper completely. Get your bare shafts and fletched shafts grouping together at 25-30 yards and you are as tuned as you will ever need to be. If your bare shafts are flying poorly something is off in your tune in my opinion.
I've not tried the Carbon Express arrows but I have a chart that shows a 150 is .495 and a 250 is .418 for spine...both of which sound a little weak for a 52#@29" bow. Your centershot will make a big difference, as will your arrow length, but just for comparison I'm shooting a 50#@29" recurve and I have a hard time getting .400s to tune, even with light point weights. I shoot a 31" .340 with 250 grain points with my bow, which is cut a little past centershot.
This is a good link for the bare shaft tuning process if you want to give it a try:
http://www.acsbows.com/bareshaftplaning.html
Once the feathers are on you can't tell much by flight or point of impact. I can shoot fletched wood shafts from 60# to 95# from my 50# bow cut 3/16 past center and does not mean squat.
I get proper bareshaft flight from 80/85 out to 25 yards and that is what counts IMO anyway. Whether you bareshaft tune or paper tune does not matter, either method will get you to ideal spine if you follow the method.
Plan to work on some bare shaft testing tonight.
If my arrows correct nicely in the first five yards out and fly true like darts after that how concerned do you need to be ?? I am curious .
Dude if you broad heads and field points are grouping like you say why bother? Sounds like you would just be complicating things. Just my 2 cents take it for what it's worth.
so i have a question on bareshaft tuning. why bare shaft tune? i come from my question because i was reading up on native american history and i doubt that they bareshafted or paper tuned their bows but could hit a target at a distance...so again not trying to ruffle any feathers or anything im just curious :) thank you all again for the advice.
Thanks for all the helpful information. I must admit I was skeptical on being able to get a bare shaft to fly straight and hit a spot at 30 yards off the shelf and shot with fingers. After some good tips and advise from fellow Trad Gang members I did some testing. On Easykeepers advice I picked up a couple 300 spine arrows that my compound buddies had laying around my shop. I tried my CX150 and CX250 carbon express and had no success. I tried a 31" Easton ACC 300 Pro Hunter with 145 grain tip and to my suprise it hit right with a feathered arrow out to 30 yards. Did not do a broad head bare shaft but I had a couple of these ACC Pro Hunters with 4" feathers laying around and the bare shaft arrow, the fletched arrow with a field point and a fletched arrow with a 150 Eclipse Broadhead hit the same spot. I am grateful for the tips . I am now a believer.
Take care , Randy
That's great!
The more bare shaft tuning you do the better your tune, think of it as a process over time instead of a one time event. Bare shafts also show form flaws very well so keep that in mind if you are having a bad day.
The best way is two or three bare shafts along with two or three fletched. Shooting groups split up that way makes it very easy to see what's happening and eliminates the possibility of one bare shaft being a little different due to material inconsistencies or nock alignment. If you get a good bare shaft tune at 30 yards you are shooting very well but even bare and fletched grouping together at 20 yards is probably good enough (the further back you go the better...within reason...lol). Get a good bare shaft tune and you should be able to just swap the field points for broadheads of the same weight and be good to go.
A selection of point weights is handy when you are tuning too... :thumbsup:
Easykeeper said it exactly right.
Just what I do.
Man, I'm glad your tuning went well, but I have to say that 300 spine sounds awfully stiff for a 52 lb bow. Just as a comparison, fellow tgang member Schlaggerman, who easily the best shot I personally know, shoots a 52&28 border recurve and shoots 500 spine with 150 up front. His arrows fly like lasers with no hint of a wobble. Maybe just goes to show how individual this sport is.
QuoteOriginally posted by rlc1959:
Plan to work on some bare shaft testing tonight.
If my arrows correct nicely in the first five yards out and fly true like darts after that how concerned do you need to be ?? I am curious .
you don't need to be concerned at all about bare shaft tuning if you are getting truly good arrow flight.... what's the point? :dunno:
the whole purpose of shooting bare shafts is to get the right arrow spine.... i don't know how many times i've seen guys bare shaft tune to perfection, then put their fletching on and be too stiff and have to start over adding weight to the tip or adjusting the strike plate....
That's one you don't hear much about when tuning arrows is using different strike plate materials.
the difference between a velcro strike, a soft leather strike, and a thin hard strike plate like stingray hide or hard ladigo leather makes a HUGE difference...
Kirk you are so right about the type of side plate Rick Welch shows it in his DVDs Thanks Shane
Honestly I do not shoot any better groups with the stiffer arrows but the bare shaft flight with my CX 150 & CX 250 was terrible. I plan to get some 340 spine to test with . I just happen to have some 300 spine ACC Pro Hunters from my compound friends. Thanks again for all the help & advise.
Good shooting, Randy
By the way I noticed you mention bare shafting with broadheads. Do not do it. That is a very unsafe idea.
I like to bareshaft tune. I have found that if I can get the arrows flying where I am looking bareshaft then once fletched it just gets better. In fact I was testing some new arrows today and here are the results from 15 and 20 yards. 20 is usually as far out as I try to tune. If I can get them grouping like this I know if I miss at 30 yards it was me, not my arrow. :-)
(http://s20.postimg.org/cv5nmb425/15yards.jpg)
4 shots at 15 yards, one flecthed
(http://s20.postimg.org/9pl1w3lfx/image.jpg)
Same arrows at 20 yards, the flyer to the left was all me. I knew it on my release.
These are some new carbons I am trying from Black Eagle Arrows. Currently they are full length .300 spine with 100 grain brass insert and 250 grain point. Total weight 670 grains fletched.
Been a while since I bare shafted. I got away from it due to the "if they fly ok, you're good" mentality.
Getting ready for my bear hunt next month. Figured I would check my bows and do some fine tuning. Bows are both Black Widows, 53 @28, one is a PSA and the other a PL.
Both shot broadheads and field points the same. Then I shot some bare shafts HOLY COW ! THEY FLEW LIKE CRAP.
It took about an hour, a little cutting and I ended up with 30.5" MFX 340's with 150 gn points. I mean they fly like darts out to 25 yds.
I can not over state how much better the bows shoot, feel and sound. It's like shooting two new bows now.
That is exactly how I felt. I am 14 days away from leaving for my Nevada Early Archery Mule Deer Hunt and I thought my arrows were tuned and ready to go. What a suprise when I did my bare shaft test. Got it dialed in now and flying better then ever. Thanks for all the help. :thumbsup:
Randy Chamberlin
QuoteOriginally posted by -snypershot317-:
so i have a question on bareshaft tuning. why bare shaft tune? i come from my question because i was reading up on native american history and i doubt that they bareshafted or paper tuned their bows but could hit a target at a distance...so again not trying to ruffle any feathers or anything im just curious :) thank you all again for the advice.
So do the history books go into great detail about what happened when those hunters did not get good penetration and the animal ran off wounded to die a slow death...most of us today do not hunt to stay alive like they did and consequently our ethics ought to be a little tighter...we need to be in control of the things we can control and arrow flight is one of those things
DDave
Soooooo.... let me get this straight Dave. We've already got good arrow flight. both field tips and broad heads are "Shooting like darts" .....
But now we have a moral obligation to bare shaft tune them anyway for better penetration????? :dunno: :dunno: That is absolutely ridiculous IMO.... :deadhorse:
So, we are supposed to just ignore the errors that the fletchings can mask. Sure you can put feathers on a middle of the road arrow and get decent arrow flight, maybe even shoot a broadhead. But, what is wrong with trying to improve the tune of the arrow. Bowyers claim that ther limbs are the best design on the planet, speeds that outdo everyone else, and then we're supposed to throw whatever arrow in them and expect consistent results, that's absolutely ridiculous IMO....
I believe that all Randy is trying to do is understand the various tuning methods, testing the results, and then letting the results speak for themselves. Shouldn't we all be doing this. You can to some extent control the arrow, why wouldn't we put the time in to try to find the best combination.
The way I look at is, the better the arrows fly bare-shaft, the less work the feathers will have to do to correct flight, which translates to quicker recovery from paradox, less energy lost, flatter trajectory and increased penetration. I certainly don't obscess over bare-shafting, but it is a quick way to get in the ballpark with shaft selection. Not an end-all, but a usefull tool.
I have a short draw and lower hunting weight (40#) so bare shafting for as near perfect flight is very important to me.
Great read as I just got my new shafts in yesterday and am set to start tuning them today!
In my case I feel the extra time spent is worth it. If not just for the mental aspect when a deer comes in. I like knowing my set-up is 100% ready and it is all on me.
So, we are supposed to just ignore the errors that the fletchings can mask?.
I got news for you brutha.... that is why we put fletching on our arrows is to improve arrow flight.... we are not "masking" anything....
my whole point is that bare shaft tuning isn't necessary to get good arrow flight. it's used as a tool to get the correct arrow spine.... if the arrow is coming out of paradox with good recovery, and flying straight to the target. Who cares if the same shaft wont shoot without fletching?.... i would be willing to bet the ones that do bare shaft good out to 20 yards, and the ones that don't, but fly nicely with fletching would have no measurable difference in KE....
explain to me this.... you spend all that time getting your bare shafts flying just right. then put fletching and broadheads on them, and about half the time you have to start over again.... :dunno: Ok.... so you do some more fine tuning and get them flying good.... Do you honestly think if you took the feathers back off and screwed field points on again they are going to fly well?
let me drop back here a moment and say one more thing. for the guys that love to mess with tuning bare shafts and get better peice of mind over it... that's cool.... for the guys that are getting frustrated because their arrows fly excellent with fletching, and cant get bare shafts to fly.... give it up and just go hunting with your straight shooting arrows.... it don't matter.
you guys git too much time on your hands taking this bare shaft business so far...
Randy, good luck on your hunt. Sounds like you are ready to go!
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
So, we are supposed to just ignore the errors that the fletchings can mask?.
I got news for you brutha.... that is why we put fletching on our arrows is to improve arrow flight.... we are not "masking" anything....
my whole point is that bare shaft tuning isn't necessary to get good arrow flight. it's used as a tool to get the correct arrow spine.... if the arrow is coming out of paradox with good recovery, and flying straight to the target. Who cares if the same shaft wont shoot without fletching?.... i would be willing to bet the ones that do bare shaft good out to 20 yards, and the ones that don't, but fly nicely with fletching would have no measurable difference in KE....
explain to me this.... you spend all that time getting your bare shafts flying just right. then put fletching and broadheads on them, and about half the time you have to start over again.... :dunno: Ok.... so you do some more fine tuning and get them flying good.... Do you honestly think if you took the feathers back off and screwed field points on again they are going to fly well?
let me drop back here a moment and say one more thing. for the guys that love to mess with tuning bare shafts and get better peice of mind over it... that's cool.... for the guys that are getting frustrated because their arrows fly excellent with fletching, and cant get bare shafts to fly.... give it up and just go hunting with your straight shooting arrows.... it don't matter.
you guys git too much time on your hands taking this bare shaft business so far...
Kirk I'm sorry I just don't buy what you're saying I have seen a lot of arrow setups fly decently from bows that were just tuned with fletched shafts. Believe me even 3 4" feathers can correct alot of tuning and arrow flight problems. Now translate this to hunting. An arrow that leaves the bow flying almost perfectly straight within 2 feet from the bow is driving all of its energy in a perfectly straight line. However those mediocre flying arrows a lot of times move around quite a bit the first couple of feet from the bow before the fletching can stabilize the shaft. Most of the time our eyes are not good enough to see this so we think we are getting good arrow flight. This arrow that wobbles a ways before straightening up is losing some energy due to sideways deflection the same way a limb on a bow loses effeciency if they are not tillered perfectly. So why lose this energy if there is a way to fix it?
Once the feathers are on I can shoot shafts from 60-90 out of my bow and they seem to fly perfectly. Wet those fletchings down and shoot broadheads; and all hell brakes loose-except the ones that were bareshaft tuned to my bow-75/80. Fletched shafts will hide a multitude of sins. :shaka: :shaka:
Ok.... i give up... you guys have made some good points..... i'm going to set up the chrono and shoot some arrows that are perfectly tuned bare shaft and ones that are too weak shooting bare shafts, but fly excellent with fletching and see if its measurable at 20 yards.... i'll set the chrono up at the target... and let you know what my results are....
i'm seriously anal about balancing the limbs of all my bows. i suppose i really should give this bare shaft business more time and testing...
The wet feather test is something i've always done with broadhead tuning Bjorn.
Kirk, Well spoken by a true Oregon chainsaw bowyer. I agree with ya bro. These fellas made some great points. I know one thing. I don't know it all and I'm willing to learn.
God bless, Steve
Interesting discussion. I gave up bare shafting woodies a long time ago. I guess when I can hit a target on 55 yards there can't be much wrong with my arras.
It will be interesting to see the chrono results from Kirk though!
I also think that bare shafting tells much about your form.
A bow setup that has been properly bare shaft tuned is far more forgiving than one that will just shoot decent. I am anal about my tuning, but after I learned the proper way to tune meaning, bare shaft, broadhead, paper tuning my shooting ability has vastly improved. As mentioned the wet feather with broadhead test will tell the truth about how well any bow/arrow combination is tuned very fast... As far as KE, a well tuned arrow will have a higher KE rating all day, it's just physics.
The notion that an arrow loses ke due to sideways deflection makes intuitive sense, but has anyone actually tested it? We throw around a lot of "facts" but few of them seem to have much experimental backup. We might be talking about a loss of less than 1 fps. I am curious to see some real data.
If I had a choice between hunting or retuning to get perfect bareshaft flight, I'm going hunting. Bareshafting may give some of you peace of mind, but it is not the holy grail and is over rated imo.
I think carbon tolerates a lot of variance in spine. I have done a lot of bare shaft tuning and found for me it is best to keep them a bit weak. At 15-20 yards if my fletched arrows hit center of a paper plate and my bare shafts hit out at the edge about 4-5 o'clock that is good. I think they are too stiff if they actually hit in the same place. Paper tuning has confirmed that quite a few times. In addition, they shoot best fletched groups if bare shaft a bit weak. I have set up quite a few arrows for bows with real good bare shafting and found they just don't shoot as good groups as a bit weaker like bumping the point weight another 25 grains. For me it is a mix of good bare shaft flight, broadheads hitting the same as field points, tight groups, and forgiveness. I think all those things can be gotten with the right tune.
Bare shaft to get proper arrow spine, paper tune to get proper flight (if my arrows with fletch shoot bullet holes at 5 to 6 feet what more can I ask) and then fine tune with fletched broadheads. I usually am pretty happy if my fletched field points and fletched broadheads hit same pip plate at 30-40 yards. Unless you have a "perfect release/form" every single time bareshafting can drive a man insane. There is a reason that people have been tying feathers to arrows shafts for 1000s of years
Here's a question just to stimulate some thought among the paper tuners.
If I watch slow motion flight of woodies, especially, there is a fair amount of oscillation going on for a lot more than 6 feet from the bow. If I get the arrow shooting bullet holes at 6 feet, what is it doing at 5 or 10 feet? Doesn't it seem that the point at which there is no tear must be at one of the distances where the arrow is passing through zero flex on its way to flexing the other way? It would also seem to me that a zero-tear distance would exist for a weak or stiff arrow; just a different distance.
Eventually, the fletching will stabilize either a weak or stiff arrow, although it will take longer to stabilize a weak one.
Just food for thought for those of us who aren't busy shooting at the moment :)
IMO bareshafting allows for finer arrow tune as said above which in my own testing as a old paper tuner who ate the humble pie several times.
I thought the whole point of bareshaft PLANING was to shoot BOTH fletched and bareshafts, idenetical shafts one with fletching the other without to get them to BOTH hit the same place. The bareshafting will tell you about spine and nock height, release issues, etc. The fletched shafts the "corrected" spot of impact.
You use both parts to arrive at a shaft spine and a nock height.
Any other method "bareshafting" is really only half the equation.
Joshua
If bareshafting was done properly there will be very little to NO change from a fletched shaft to bareshaft, the fletched shaft can/may have different impact points also due to flecth size and shape controlling the rear of the arrow. The whole purpose is finding the correct spine arrow for your bow.
I swear sometimes us trad guys way over complicate things..... as for me I am sticking to Bryan Ferguson's method as it works, it takes only about 30 minutes and my arrows are doing what I want them to - flying straight, hitting where I am looking.
I don't know that you will see much of a speed difference or not Kirk. To me the arrow should still be flying pretty close to the same speed but because of it being weak and over flexing or being stiff and having some wag in the tail the total amount of energy is not following a straight line like it would be with a perfectly flying arrow. Again I don't know if it will show up on a chronograph but when I first started bowhunting I didn't know anything about tuning and I killed a few deer with my 55# longbow but only got about half the arrow penetrating the deer. Since I have learned about tuning I consistently get full penetration and a lot of times the arrow is sticking in the ground on the other side.