Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: heartlandbowyer on June 24, 2013, 07:27:00 PM
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I'm sure this has all been talked about many times, but how fast is fast. Is a bow that shoots 180fps w/ 10 gpp pulled to 28" with finger release considered fast?
Cory
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Yes
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Sounds pretty fast. The last bow I chronographed was shooting 10gpp arrows at 160 fps.
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I think that's nice and fast, especially considering the heavy arrow. My Samick Sage was shooting a light 8 gpp arrow at 184 fps. I haven't chrono my Maddog yet, but I know it's gonna be faster.
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I'd say that's very fast.
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Faster than any bows I've shot but I have a 26" draw.
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I like to shoot heavy arrows. So, 180+ fps with 10+ gpp is what I hope to get out of my R/D longbows. My fastest LB shoots 186 fps with 10.5 gpp arrow, but that bow is a mutant.
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My 59' Kodiak Holcomb repro shoots a 9.25 grain per pound arrow at 185 feet per second.....which I think is smokin' fast. Guys comment on it frequently....so 180 fps at 10GPP is very good. My buddies new Widow at 10GPP shoots 174 fps....so you make the call. However....I rate silence every bit as high as velocity...maybe even more.....JMO......shoot straight....john
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Agree with the others... :archer2: ...fast.
I think most would be happy to have that speed with 9gpp at 28".
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yeah, I think that is fast at 28" draw, if it's quiet too, well that's the holy grail!
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my martin hunter shoots 173-175 at 10gpp, 28" and its 60#
cheers
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Never chronographed any of my hunting bows. I shoot arrows from 9-12 gpp. When I release the string shooting at 25 yds...I let my eyes tell me if I'm satisfied with the bow's speed after it hits. Apparently....I'm very happy with all my bows performance.
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It's easy to get used to speed and that flat trajectory. EagleWing and BigFoot bows are very fast and fun to shoot.
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Yes, thats fast.
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Every bow is an individual so unless the bow in consideration has been professionally tested then its hard to say what it is going to shoot when it is. I would call 180 fast for the parameters you set. I would call 190 plus a lot faster though. You start separating bows real quick when you hit the 190 mark at 28 and 10 gpp with fingers.
180 with fingers at 28 and 10 gpp is no slouch.
God bless, Steve
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Bigfoot Sasquatch, carbon limbs: 10.0 grain arrow, 29 in. drawlength, 63# in weight: 192 FPS, tested 5 times by two shooters.
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"Speed is good..... Accuracy is final" - Wild Bill Hickock
If it seems fast to you, and you can put them right in the heart... 'nuff said!!!
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Originally posted by woodchucker:
"Speed is good..... Accuracy is final" - Wild Bill Hickock
If it seems fast to you, and you can put them right in the heart... 'nuff said!!!
^
amen to that.
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186,282 miles per second is as fast as you're going to get without warp drive on your arrow.
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My 55 lb buffalo shoots my 505gn fmj's at 184 fps ,I think that's fast ...enough
:archer2:
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My 55 lb buffalo shoots my 505gn fmj's at 184 fps ,I think that's fast ...enough
:archer2:
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I think 180 at 10 GPP is in the "Not Bad" category.... i wouldn't categorize a bow as being "Fast" until you tip the 190 FPS mark.... then again.... i'm kind of picky about performance.
here is one i call "fast" 52" Yeti, 9 GPP 27" draw. glass over bocote limbs 191 FPS....
10 gpp 188 at 27" draw..... at 28" this bow breaks the 190 fps mark at 10gpp.
anything over 200 fps at 10 gpp is SMOKIN! :thumbsup:
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202013/Ryans%20Yeti/SANY0023.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/kirkll/media/Bows%202013/Ryans%20Yeti/SANY0023.jpg.html)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202013/Ryans%20Yeti/SANY0026.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/kirkll/media/Bows%202013/Ryans%20Yeti/SANY0026.jpg.html)
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My go-to Sarrels Blueridge longbow gets 177fps at 10.6gpp. My bow is 50# at my 29.5"DL.
Bisch
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That Yeti is gorgeous!
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The Yeti can't get here fast enough Kirk! Can't wait to shoot it. The Pic's you sent me look great, the non-shelf side of that riser looks even better! The limb veners look awesome & it sounds like she's a shooter.
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That sounds fairly fast to me, I bet they are a lot of bows out there that will not shoot 180 fps at 10 gpp drawn to 28.
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That is a great looking Yeti Kirk.
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Speed is good..... Accuracy is final" - Wild Bill Hickock
If it seems fast to you, and you can put them right in the heart... 'nuff said!!!
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amen to that.
186,282 miles per second is as fast as you're going to get without warp drive on your arrow.
He asked a legitimate question about traditional bow speed, not knowing he was opening hmself up to the typical responses above. I always find it amazing so many people go into spasms when someone askes a speed question, you could just ignore these threads and read the ones you enjoy more.
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The caribou peregrine shoots 193 at 9gpp so maybe 185 at 10gpp
Can't wait for mine! Speeds got very little to do with it, but faster is good if there's still quietness and smooth draw
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IMO, speed has a lot to do with it. flatter shooting, less mental adjustment, arrow will zip through tight spots,etc...modern bows with good speed gives us a better performing weapon.
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These threads always start a bruhaha. Guys will say things like "silence is better than speed" or "smooth is better than fast." Truth is, if all the other touchy feely intagibles are taken out of the equation, we all will choose the fastest bow we can get our hands on 100% of the time. Anyone who says otherwise is only kidding themself.
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My EagleWing longbow is one of the smoothest and quietest bows I have --- and it is fast. And all other things being equal, I do prefer a fast bow.
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Fast is when the arrow is in the dirt on the offside before that animal knows it's been shot....lol
God bless,Mudd
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what mudd said ^
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I always like to read these type of threads because of the many opinions expressed, with most taking a position their way is the only right way. So lets put this question in its proper perspective with simple math. The formula to find time is T=D/R with D being distance, and R being the rate or speed so here goes. I chose 15 yds.(45 feet) as distance to target, 3 rates of 190fps,175fps,160fps as the speed.
T= 45/190=.23684 seconds(A)
T=45/175=.25714 seconds(B)
T=45/160=.28125 seconds (C)
So: A-B=.0203 or 20/1000 seconds sooner to target
B-C=.02411 or 24/1000 sec. to target
A-C=.04441 or 44/1000sec. to target
So it takes arrow C approx less than a half of a second longer to get to target, show me a way to relate to that in real time. Facts are indeed facts and things that can be put into the truth!
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Originally posted by cbCrow:
I always like to read these type of threads because of the many opinions expressed, with most taking a position their way is the only right way. So lets put this question in its proper perspective with simple math. The formula to find time is T=D/R with D being distance, and R being the rate or speed so here goes. I chose 15 yds.(45 feet) as distance to target, 3 rates of 190fps,175fps,160fps as the speed. In reality, I highly doubt he had finished his 180degree spin before the arrow got there, but he had completed enough of it to be out of harms way and by the time I could put together what all had happened, I had boogered up what would be my only shot presentation of the whole season.
T= 45/190=.23684 seconds(A)
T=45/175=.25714 seconds(B)
T=45/160=.28125 seconds (C)
So: A-B=.0203 or 20/1000 seconds sooner to target
B-C=.02411 or 24/1000 sec. to target
A-C=.04441 or 44/1000sec. to target
So it takes arrow C approx less than a half of a second longer to get to target, show me a way to relate to that in real time. Facts are indeed facts and things that can be put into the truth!
Two years ago, I missed a gimme shot at close range, the surprised bull sprinted out to 30 yards and stood broadside again, the bow I was shooting was no slouch, about 182fps. The second shot was a beautiful shot, I watched as it sailed harmlessly through the spot where the elks heart had been a split second before. By the time the arrow got there, he spun 180degrees and was facing the exact opposite direction, I imagine almost half a second to target faster wouldn't of helped much, but it might of!
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Originally posted by cbCrow:
I always like to read these type of threads because of the many opinions expressed, with most taking a position their way is the only right way. So lets put this question in its proper perspective with simple math. The formula to find time is T=D/R with D being distance, and R being the rate or speed so here goes. I chose 15 yds.(45 feet) as distance to target, 3 rates of 190fps,175fps,160fps as the speed.
T= 45/190=.23684 seconds(A)
T=45/175=.25714 seconds(B)
T=45/160=.28125 seconds (C)
So: A-B=.0203 or 20/1000 seconds sooner to target
B-C=.02411 or 24/1000 sec. to target
A-C=.04441 or 44/1000sec. to target
So it takes arrow C approx less than a half of a second longer to get to target, show me a way to relate to that in real time. Facts are indeed facts and things that can be put into the truth!
I like this.
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speed testing is something i just like to play around with. I will not keep a bow unless it is QUIET and accurate, but there are quite a few bow that are very quiet and accurate - the fun part has been finding bows that are also fast. Speed is not required but if it is "free" (dont lose quiet or accurate) then i absolutely want is much as i can get. Animal reaction times and flat trajectories are important to our success.
All that being said - Steve and Kirk are building bows that will do all three!! i just got my new chrono yesterday and get to start playing tonight. I think i have two bows that will do 200+ at 9GPP. One of which might be close to 210......
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I definitely like objectivity. I like fast bows, too.
Not meaning to derail this thread, but the next question is how fast can a deer dodge far enough to compromise a shot? I would love to see data on that.
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I have a sasquatch that will hit speeds from 205 to 210 with a 400 grain arrow, My draw is 30.5 inches
and it is very accurate, if that bow misses, its not the bow, its me
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I would say anything over 190 fps with 10 GPS arrows is fast. At most hunting distances, I don't know how important that really is. I know if I had the choice between two bows that were identical in other ways other than speed, I would take the fast bow every time. The slight margin for error and slight increase in penetration are a bonus.
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Originally posted by Stumpknocker:
I definitely like objectivity. I like fast bows, too.
Not meaning to derail this thread, but the next question is how fast can a deer dodge far enough to compromise a shot? I would love to see data on that.
x2
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Maybe I need a new chrono my #'s never get what others claim :dunno:
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Originally posted by ermont:
I would say anything over 190 fps with 10 GPS arrows is fast. At most hunting distances, I don't know how important that really is. I know if I had the choice between two bows that were identical in other ways other than speed, I would take the fast bow every time. The slight margin for error and slight increase in penetration are a bonus.
Save perhaps looks. Let's not kid ourselves here. We all want our bows to look good while shooting as well, no?
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"So it takes arrow C approx less than a half of a second longer to get to target, show me a way to relate to that in real time. Facts are indeed facts and things that can be put into the truth!"
Sorry but this is incorrect,should read," half of 1/10 of a second longer to get to target" I hope that this sheds some light on the "speed" which I have heard so many times and has never been of consequence to myself. Give me a good bow, 10-12gpp arrow, knowledge of my limitations, and the ability(lots of practice) to put arrow where it needs to be and a shaaarp head and I'll be happy without too much concern about speed.
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Originally posted by cbCrow:
I always like to read these type of threads because of the many opinions expressed, with most taking a position their way is the only right way. So lets put this question in its proper perspective with simple math. The formula to find time is T=D/R with D being distance, and R being the rate or speed so here goes. I chose 15 yds.(45 feet) as distance to target, 3 rates of 190fps,175fps,160fps as the speed.
T= 45/190=.23684 seconds(A)
T=45/175=.25714 seconds(B)
T=45/160=.28125 seconds (C)
So: A-B=.0203 or 20/1000 seconds sooner to target
B-C=.02411 or 24/1000 sec. to target
A-C=.04441 or 44/1000sec. to target
So it takes arrow C approx less than a half of a second longer to get to target, show me a way to relate to that in real time. Facts are indeed facts and things that can be put into the truth!
what if the wind was blowing from front to back at say 20 mph with arrow A and then the wind started blowing back to front 5 mph when you shot arrow C,,,, then figure with arrow B you followed thru better, picked a spot and had a much cleaner release and it just felt right... IDK,, I 'd say the one that felt right was faster.
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Originally posted by Stumpknocker:
I definitely like objectivity. I like fast bows, too.
Not meaning to derail this thread, but the next question is how fast can a deer dodge far enough to compromise a shot? I would love to see data on that.
It's been calculated with slo-mo footage of a deer dropping at the shot. To beat a deer's reaction at 20 yds you need 600 fps! According to the video I saw this on years ago.
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When you're talking less than 200 FPS, I think quiet trumps fast but I'll take every advantage I can get.
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Speed is great IF YOU CAN GET CONSISTANT ARRO FLIGHT.
When was the last time you shot a animal at 6 feet?
If that 190+fps arro at SIX FEET distant isn't coming off the bow as straight as possible,it looses a BUNCH of it's velocity to correct itself.I will take a 170-sum fps bow that I can bareshaft consistantly at any distant over any 200 fps bow that dosen't.
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Yeah 180 def aint slow, high 180's to 190+ is where you really get into what is a 'fast' trad bow though. I will say I prefer quiet over fast everytime though.
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Someone explain to me the statement about "quiet" vs speed. A lot of posters always quote the "quiet" factor like its the only thing that matters, if so, why invest in a high performance custom bow? Just shoot some off the rack production model.
I have never had a high performance bow that wasn't quiet with the proper tuning, so, I dont understand all these "quiet "remarks. When someone asks a speed question, "quiet" this is the first thing that comes up. Why? doesnt make sense. I have never missed a shot on an animal because my bow wasnt "quiet".
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cbCrow "So lets put this question in its proper perspective with simple math"
Proper perspective for me is to shoot arrows A and C at distances and really see the differences in trajectory, real world stuff. For me the math is nice but 4.4 hundredths of a second is a number that is hard translate into trajectory change. On the other hand at 15yds you won't see a lot of difference in trajectory between A and C but go to 30yds and things change a bunch.
Back to the question 180 is quick 190+ is very fast at 10gppm @28".
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Originally posted by duncan idaho:
Someone explain to me the statement about "quiet" vs speed. A lot of posters always quote the "quiet" factor like its the only thing that matters, if so, why invest in a high performance custom bow? Just shoot some off the rack production model.
I have never had a high performance bow that wasn't quiet with the proper tuning, so, I dont understand all these "quiet "remarks. When someone asks a speed question, "quiet" this is the first thing that comes up. Why? doesnt make sense. I have never missed a shot on an animal because my bow wasnt "quiet".
I'd like to hear this too. It seems some folks just don't believe in fast bows. There is definitely more to hunting than a fast bow, but I don't get people dumping on measurable performance. I find it impossible to believe that you wouldn't rather shoot a fast bow.If you had two bows that were both visually appealing, quiet,smooth, etc, you're saying you'd pick the slower one!? Someone please explain this. It makes zero sense.
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Originally posted by katman:
cbCrow "So lets put this question in its proper perspective with simple math"
Proper perspective for me is to shoot arrows A and C at distances and really see the differences in trajectory, real world stuff. For me the math is nice but 4.4 hundredths of a second is a number that is hard translate into trajectory change. On the other hand at 15yds you won't see a lot of difference in trajectory between A and C but go to 30yds and things change a bunch.
Back to the question 180 is quick 190+ is very fast at 10gppm @28".
The difference between 160 and 190 fps at 15 yds is 7" of arrow drop. At 25 yds it's 18". That is the math.
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the quiet vs speed comments come about in order to cast a bit of hubris upon bows that are faster than the bow or bows that are their favorites. It is an un-substantiated statemate that is made to cast doubt on the faster bow.
I maintain that the faster bows are actually faster because the balance and timing which are critical to quietness may be a bit better than the balance and timing of the bow that is slower. I know even within bows I build that this is a fact and explains why otherwise identical bows may be a bit quieter and a bit faster than an otherwise identical bow.
God bless, Steve
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To answer sveral peoples questions or statements,I used 15yds. based on average yardage of killed deer by trad hunters. I based this figure on threads from here and 2 other sites. I just wanted to show that at the distances, we as hunter kill game, the difference is of minimal concern. If your going to use 30yds, is that your hunting distance? Than that would make it relevent, which probably would be more in the western states than in eastern hardwood forests, point taken in that case. Now the second point about the drop. This may be correct for you given the parameters needed to find trajectory but it would only apply to you and your setup. So what your are saying is incorrect for others,as we all shoot different weight arrows, launch height is different in each of us, drag co efficient difference to name a few, so your assumption has no meaning to the conversation in general but thank you for your opinion. Do I think 180fps is fast, heck yea, but if that is the primary factor,speed, than why not go back to the other side and shoot 280-320fps and than don't worry about the hours of practice or dedication it takes to be good with our choice of bows.
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Cbcrow, you can't bring your math into the discussion and then poo poo my math because you dont like the result. Your math said nothing about individual setup, and neither did mine.
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gringol, I don't see how your math was poo-poo'd by me. I simply stated a fact that the drops you gave were not a standard to be used by all because their not. There are too many variables involed in figureing trajectory to make a blanket statement. To stress my point, don't bullet manufactures publish there own ballistic tables? If you look in Sierra and Nosler books you could take a 150gr boattail bullet and find that while they may be close there is a difference in their trajectory. This common in all projectiles as there are variables to be figured in the equation. So what may be true for you may not be true for all. As a matter of fact I assumed your math was correct for you and just wanted to make the point that it may not hold up for my setup or anyone else. As far as my math goes all the parameters I set up are measurable and through thousands of years have held true. If you walk a amount of distance in a amount of time you can get the rate your walking very easily. All you need are the numbers and do the math. With trajectoy a whole bunch more comes into play. By the way I am cbCrow and there was nothing I said was trying to insult you. If you were, your problem not mine.
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In fact, your equation also assumed zero drag and constant speed. I don't understand why you seem to prefer slow bows. If that works for you, great, but you'll never convince me that slower is better. Even selfbow guys try to make the fastest bow they can. That's all I have to say.
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When I first got into trad in '89 I asked the late Jim Brackenbury how fast his bows were. This is what he told me:
"There ain't a deer alive that cares how fast you miss 'em!"
He then went on to talk about how smoothness, stability, sharp broadheads, and shot placement were WAY more important than speed.
Jerry
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Deer don't buy bows but hunters both buy bows and shoot them. To this day I have never had a single hunter that wanted to buy a slow bow. Never. Therefor , I will build the fastest bow I can build that is well mannered, Quiet and accurate.
God bless you all, Steve
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"Deer don't buy bows but hunters both buy bows and shoot them. To this day I have never had a single hunter that wanted to buy a slow bow. Never. Therefor , I will build the fastest bow I can build that is well mannered, Quiet and accurate."
God bless you all, Steve
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Quoted for absolute truth. I never seen someone posting about their pride and joy and start out by saying, "she is sold, stable, and sooooooo slow", man, what a dream bow!" Thats why all the comments that "speed doesnt matter", rings of severe hypocrisy.
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Give a archer a bow that he can shoot BARESHAFTS consistantly well and another that's faster that he can't.Then you'll see an archer buy the slower bow!
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Dont understand your point. Why would a faster bow not shoot a bare shaft consistantly?
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I saw a TV commercial last nite. A group of 7 yr. olds sitting around a table were asked a question. Whats better, faster or slower. It was unanamous. Faster was better. I'm going with faster.
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Define slow. 175 fps? I'll take a quiet, stable, bow that's a few fps slower than a noisy bow any day. In my experiences (been at it since '89), the faster a bow is, the more release errors are magnified. Why do you think compounders started going to release aids in the early 90's? The faster the bows became, the more critical the releases became.
Originally posted by duncan idaho:
Dont understand your point. Why would a faster bow not shoot a bare shaft consistantly?
IMHO, release errors. Wouldn't you rather shoot a slower bow consistently than a faster bow erratically?
I'm not saying don't shoot a fast bow. I'm saying don't dis on folks who prefer consistent results over speed. Which is the gist of what Brackenbury was saying. I've killed a lot of deer with my 175 fps longbow. It's quiet and forgiving of my release errors. Stable. Sixby, your statement is key; a blend of speed, manners, and quietness. I think that designing a bow SOLELY for speed is folly.
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Overbo, understand your statement and agree 100% with you. If you can shoot the bow consistently usually it also stabile, smooth, and forgiving of your mistakes, thats worth a little speed to me. While I have no problem with speed it holds very little importance to me as I previously stated, different strokes for different folks I guess.
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My new bow is SO FAST....that my fiance can't even see it coming!!!!! :laughing:
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First, Jerry the case has not been made that a bows speed is the culprit that causes inaccuracy/ It definitely is continually alluded to and I suspect that it comes because many times bows were built strictly for speed and that the other necessary attributes of quietness and stableness and shootability were neglected.
Because poor bowyers built fast bows does not make this a law.
I respect both Steve and Jerry. I do not agree with their hypothesis that fast bows are inheriently poor or inferior shooters. In fact I do not agree that even moderately fast bows are superior to really fast bows when both are built properly.
The fact is that there are some very quick bows being built right now that completely dis-annul both Jerry and Steves comments. In fact since Steve is a Habu proponent I cannot see where his comments come from at all. Are you saying that Habu is less in any department than some of the other bows being made today? I doubt that. So here we have a fast bow owner and proponent advocating for slower bows.
Now this is puzzling.
Lookmomnosights:My new bow is SO FAST....that my fiance can't even see it coming!!!!!
I nominate this as the quote of the year.
God bless you all, Steve
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Yes Steve,
That's exactly what I'm saying.The Habu I have is far from the fastest bow I've owned or shot.It is the the most accurate though.It also CAST a arro consistantly better than any bow I've shot to date.
IMO,
This is the problem I see alot.A bowyer makes a wicked fast bow but sacrifices shootabilty.Yes there are superior archers that shoot these speed demands well but I'm not one of them and I would guess that a large % of trad shooters aren't.
As mentioned above,
Which is better,fast or slow.Neither,consistancy is better.
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Originally posted by overbo:
This is the problem I see alot.A bowyer makes a wicked fast bow but sacrifices shootabilty.....
I have a couple question for you overbo. You see this problem a lot, and i'd like to understand it better.... Personally i take a lot of pride in building high performance bows, and i can't see how a bowyer CAN build a "Wicked fast bow" without the proper balance and stability required to get the extra horse power. Can you explain that to me?
Of course if you shoot lighter weight shafts that are not properly balanced and tuned to the bow the arrow flight is going to be more sensitive to a less than perfect release. and.... those light weight shafts require an excellent release to bare shaft them..... my second question to you is:
What is the purpose of bare shafting, and why is it you have problems tuning arrows with a higher performance bow?
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I've always heard it best to get the arrow off the string quick as possible for best accuracy. High brace height does that and seems like a fast set of limbs would do the same. More time the arrow is on the string more time for human error.
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this is getting good..... :campfire: :campfire: :campfire:
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I'll take that performance!
Kris
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the two fastest bows I own are also the most consistent shooters. speed and consistency are definitely not incompatible.
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The fastest bow I have ever owned was a sovereign ballistick. It was also smooth, quiet, and as accurate as the archer.
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Kirk,
You didn't ask the purpose of bare shafting?LOL
I guess I'm not one of those better archers that never has form or release problems.Bows w/ low brace and alot of preload in the limbs seem sensative to my shooting style.
I did have the pleasure of shooting one of your bows at Balt.Love the looks but I have bows I shoot more confidently w/ and that's bottom line for me.No matter how quick it shoots.
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My long bow scales 57# at my draw i shoot a 550 grain arrow at 194-196 fps, who cares! All I care about is the fact that it shoots any material arrow I put on the string right where I am looking, accuracy trumps everything else who gives a "expletive" if your bow is faaaast, quite or anything else if you cannot consistently put every single arrow in an effective kill zone of the animal you are pursuing! I have seen wayyy too many people who "think" they can shoot a stickbow, truth be told a lot of guys who do shoot traditional have no business even taking it to the woods! Before I start to ramble, bottom line is accuracy is the only thing that matters, and that is solely dependent on ones ability to shoot, be conscious of tuning and to be REALISTIC about the ranges to shoot (there are a lot of guys who are lying to themselves)
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Originally posted by gringol:
Originally posted by katman:
cbCrow "So lets put this question in its proper perspective with simple math"
Proper perspective for me is to shoot arrows A and C at distances and really see the differences in trajectory, real world stuff. For me the math is nice but 4.4 hundredths of a second is a number that is hard translate into trajectory change. On the other hand at 15yds you won't see a lot of difference in trajectory between A and C but go to 30yds and things change a bunch.
Back to the question 180 is quick 190+ is very fast at 10gppm @28".
The difference between 160 and 190 fps at 15 yds is 7" of arrow drop. At 25 yds it's 18". That is the math. [/b]
Thanks gringol
cbCrow, sorry if I irritated you.
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On a lighter note ,really really fast is when you accidentally fart and it leaves some extra baggage in your underwear :bigsmyl:
This reminds me on the old saying to never trust a fart. :thumbsup:
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Ha! Now that is some funny stuff right there!
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Originally posted by overbo:
Kirk,
You didn't ask the purpose of bare shafting?LOL
I guess I'm not one of those better archers that never has form or release problems.Bows w/ low brace and alot of preload in the limbs seem sensative to my shooting style.
I did have the pleasure of shooting one of your bows at Balt.Love the looks but I have bows I shoot more confidently w/ and that's bottom line for me.No matter how quick it shoots.
you side stepped both questions bro....the first one about bare shafting may seem kinda silly to you. but the the reason i asked is most everyone knows that it's to find the correct arrow spine.
But.... bare haft tuning arrows at all distances isn't necessary to obtain excellent flight. typically its used only to determine the right spine during paradox.... just because you can't bare shaft light weight shafts flying 200 fps doesn't mean it's going to effect your arrow flight once you have the fletching on.
Speed is great IF YOU CAN GET CONSISTANT ARRO FLIGHT. When was the last time you shot a animal at 6 feet? If that 190+fps arro at SIX FEET distant isn't coming off the bow as straight as possible,it looses a BUNCH of it's velocity to correct itself.I will take a 170-sum fps bow that I can bareshaft consistantly at any distant over any 200 fps bow that dosen't.
this statement is down right silly....unless your arrows are coming out of the bow sideways the velocity or accuracy isn't effected at all.....
but i think you nailed it on your last post. it's not about arrow speed at all.... for you its about confidence in your bow.
My long bow scales 57# at my draw i shoot a 550 grain arrow at 194-196 fps, who cares! All I care about is the fact that it shoots any material arrow I put on the string right where I am looking,
Obviously there are a lot of guys who DO care brutha, or these posts wouldn't get any attention at all... You've got a pretty fast bow and know how to shoot it... Cool beans! :thumbsup:
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I actually shot an elk at six feet. Did not get complete penetration but did get a dead elk.
To the thread again. 180 at the parameters you laid out is fast. You should compete well with most of the belly mounted longbows and even with most of the top mount bows getting those speeds.
God bless, Steve
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Thanks guys for the input, didn't mean to poke the hornets nest. I just wanted a good baseline so I could be a better bowyer. I want to make the best possible bow I can and I can get a lot of valuable opinions and info from you guys.
Thanks,
Cory
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I understand the spine thing w/ bare shaft tunning but I was speaking about bare shaft shooting,not tunning.Example,take 3 bare shafts and practice at different ranges.The more forgiven bow (for me) usually shoots a bare shaft more consistantly.My findings have bows w/ 8+'' brace w/ moderate to very little pre-load,putting straight bare shafts down range more easily.
I like that,
Your speed bow won't bare shaft tune w/ a arro to get the 200fps that one advertises.Don't worry about that.Put some fletching on that arro and go w/ it.Interesting statement from a bowyer.
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Originally posted by overbo:
I understand the spine thing w/ bare shaft tunning but I was speaking about bare shaft shooting,not tunning.Example,take 3 bare shafts and practice at different ranges.The more forgiven bow (for me) usually shoots a bare shaft more consistantly.My findings have bows w/ 8+'' brace w/ moderate to very little pre-load,putting straight bare shafts down range more easily.
I like that,
Your speed bow won't bare shaft tune w/ a arro to get the 200fps that one advertises.Don't worry about that.Put some fletching on that arro and go w/ it.Interesting statement from a bowyer.
It is interesting. Especially since Kirk was a very accomplished competition shooter shooting unlimited compound and I am certain he carefully tuned as did I.
I find more interesting your statement that you like little preload and an 8 inch plus brace. That contradicts a well designed bow which will have good stability at even a 7 inch brace and a lot of pre load.
What I have observed is that loud bows have little preload and need the high brace height in order to have any stability.
What you have with a higher brace is a bow that is more forgiving only if the bow window is not cut well past center. The arrow has to bend around the sight window instead of shooting through it . With closer brace height this becomes a problem making the bow less tunable. I cut my bows 3/16past center and they do not have that problem. You could shoot them as low as you wish although I recommend 6 1/2 to 7 1/4 simply because that is where the preload is best.
I can hunt with one of these bows with no string silencer, They are that quiet. However I do like the look of fur so I put a dab of beaver on them. LOL
I have never bare shafted an arrow from a stick bow. I balance the broadheads and watch the arrow flight. I am probably one of those folks that should never go into the woods. I think I heard an elk say that one time.
God bless you all, Steve
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"Thanks guys for the input, didn't mean to poke the hornets nest. I just wanted a good baseline so I could be a better bowyer. I want to make the best possible bow I can and I can get a lot of valuable opinions and info from you guys."
Thanks,
Cory
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You do not have to apologize for asking a legiminate question. It you felt the need to, then this sites motto " one sword sharpens another" is a joke.
I dont disrespect anyone on here, it you want to shoot a certain bow, have at it, you bought it.
However, saying that, you should not make ridiculous comments about the subject of speed , when it comes up. You almost get the impression that people are personally offended. You dont like the subject, dont read it......
If it wasnt for modern bowyers pushing the edge on speed, especially need designs like Static recurve, you would not have the innovations in Traditional archery that we all enjoy today.
When someone comes on here and asks a question about comparing two bows, NEVER DO THEY ASK WHICH IS THE SLOWEST OR LEAST EFFICIENT.
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Sometimes I don't know what people mean by "forgiving". If you torque the bow, collapse, creep, pluck, etc, you will have issues on any bow.
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Katman, no sir you did not irritate me, as a matter of fact I love good spirited debates and welcome opposite opinions. I apologize if I came off that way.....Chuck
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Steve,
Never said Kirk dosen't do his part to tune his bows.He posted the words above.Not me!
Dosen't it stand to reason,
Of all the wonderful qualities you describe above in your bow.That a bow was built so the pre-load works best a 8+'' brace.The bow would be more forgive to shoot?Of course it would but you would loose those chrono #'s that you so boldly boost.
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I just chrono'd my fastest most consistent shooting bow....glove release, 45lbs at 27", 528 grain arrow which comes out to 11.7333 grains per lb. (the arrows I hunt and shoot with)
166fps. most people wouldn't consider that fast, but out of 100 or so bows that I've owned, that 166 is smoking fast. :archer2:
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Almost 12 grains, 528 grain arrow, with only a 27 in. draw? 166 fps? You really have a high performing bow.You must be happy with that one. Good Shooting.
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Originally posted by overbo:
Steve,
Never said Kirk dosen't do his part to tune his bows.He posted the words above.Not me!
Dosen't it stand to reason,
Of all the wonderful qualities you describe above in your bow.That a bow was built so the pre-load works best a 8+'' brace.The bow would be more forgive to shoot?Of course it would but you would loose those chrono #'s that you so boldly boost.
At eight inches it would lose some of its speed but it would really gin nothing in shootability because the sight window is cut 3/16 past center and radiused in every direction. The point you are missing is that the high brace height is because the reflex of the bow which the bowyer put in the bow makes the bow unstable at the lower brace height. This does contribute to being an ill mannered bow until you get the brace height up high enough to compensate for that.
So here is the question. Which is best designed the extremely shootable bow with extreme speed at 6 3/4 inches or the extremely shootable bow with good speed at 8 inches?
Honest answer is the bow that has those attributes at 6 3/4 inches. Because-- If for some weird reason a person just desires to shoot an 8 inch brace he can always twist the string up and slow his bow down .
One thing you would find though. At eight inch brace the EagleWing will still be in the 190s in most cases. Some individuals vary.
God bless you all, Steve
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WOW!
One can raise your bow's brace a 1 1/4'' above recommended brace and still accomplish 190fps @28'' and 10grs per #.My hats off to you Mr. Talant.Never new there is a bow out there that can do that. :notworthy:
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Thanks: I was talking about 9 gpp though. I have not tested that at 10 but it will be in the high 180 to 190. Yes there are bows out there that will do that.
Steve , don't get depressed that you did not know that. How could you? To the best of my knowledge you have never even seen one of my bows, much less shot one.
Sasquatch is usually, Not always , a tiny bit faster than mine. There may be some others. However I am talking about belly mount bows. My top mounts are usually a bit faster . I believe there are pleanty of owners out there to attest to this.
Oh and to give credit where credit is due there are other bows that are as fast. faster, or at least very close. I'm not about to claim I am building the fastest bows in the world. Centaur for one and I am sure that there are some others.
All of them have several things in common. Well balanced and timed. Little or no shock, Hands on bowyer tuning, High early weight, very even draw force curve,
Around 7 in area in brace.
God bless, Steve
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I will post my head to head results tomorrow of a bunch of fast bows. I spent a bunch of time today and I am too tired to type tonight. I was surprised by the winner and also how close the top bows were!!!
Mike
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Looking forward to seeing the results of your head to head.
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I don't expect any of the belly mounts to beat the top mount bows so I would lay my money on the Squatch or the Centaur. Probably on the SS
This will be very interesting though.
God bless, Steve
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really interested in reading your results. Thank you
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I feel like my Kanati is a very efficient bow and I shoot it well. I have a relatively short draw length and I shoot a fairly heavy arrow for my draw weight. I could get a much faster arrow speed if I chose to use much lighter arrows but I'm not a speed freak. But I do like high efficiency/high performance bows that are capable of fast arrow speeds if one chooses to shoot light arrows.
Speed is relative to draw weight, arrow weight, draw length, and bow efficiency. I have always thought it funny when someone says their bow shoots 195 or 205 or whatever fps but they have no idea how much their arrow weighs or what their draw length is. :rolleyes: Heck they could be shooting an arrow weighing 6 grains per pound(or even less)! I've also seen people draw an arrow back much farther when shooting through the chrono than they normally would when shooting at a target.
Check out my setup in my signature below for details.
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I have not followed this thread until this AM and just read all 7 pages. As in similar ones before, there are a number of results in f.p.s. posted that exceed anything ever obtained in professionally conducted tests such as those done by Blackie Schwartz for Traditional Bowhunter Magazine. It might be interesting if someone would do a "fastest chronograph" review and posted the results.
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you guys wanna see "fast?"
check out the Black Swan web site.
www.blackswanarchery.com (http://www.blackswanarchery.com)
295 fps is FAST!
bill
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Jim see my head to head test. Not perfect but real numbers from hunt ready bows and exact arrow weights for bow weight and draw length.
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With any choice of a bow, I prefer longbows or at least bows that point like a Hill style longbow, the fastest one is always fun. However, the interesting posts that break down the arrows arrival times I find most interesting. I have a couple of longbows that are very fast and they shoot nice with arrows that are 500 grains to 545 grains, which is 8.2 grains per pound to about 8.5 grains per pound. Pass throughs on whitetails with all of these bows has been nearly a given. With all of these faster bows, my point on varies just a few yards, 51 to 54 yards, the with my current form no matter which arrow is being used. Apparently, the arrival times of the arrow is very close, even with the 50 grains of arrow weight difference. The post about his game moving on the shot and getting his miss that was not a matter of arrow speed, rings very true for me. I had a deer at 35 yards do a complete end to end turn and departure, which put the arrow past his tail. I know the shot was on I got a glimpse of it just above where I wanted it to hit in flight. From that glimpse to the deer, the deer spun and moved out of the way. That bow was tested at 245 fps, it was a compound, and I could consistantly shoot apple sized groups at that range. The deer had looked at me a few seconds earlier and then ignored me, I was on the ground. What made me miss that deer was time and sound. It took too much time to get the bow on target and the bow made to much sound. If I could have gotten the shot off smoother and faster with a quieter bow I would have had the buck. For me, being a ground hunter, over the years I have found that game can detect the slightest motions and will react in about the same amount of time whether I take a very slow shot or a quicker and smoother fast shot. I love fast bows, but slight speed differences make no difference if the game is gone when the arrow gets there. A smooth quick shot and a silent bow makes up for a lot of speed. If one goes for a stiff exagerated form to get a longer draw that also makes taking a hunting shot more difficult, just for a bit more speed, it may cost him some meat in the freezer. Going for speed is fun, going for heavy shaft penetration is fun, however, I would hope that this thread does not lead some to think that they are completely out of the game because they are not set up to get blinding arrow speed with super heavy shafts. The middle of road is still a good place to be.
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Mike, I was certainly not singling out your numbers and I was quite serious about comparing some chronographs. I suspect there is a fair bit of variation due to lighting, manufacturing tolerances etc.. Back to your results however, I suggest that since you have a clicker you should post results obtained at the standard 28" of draw instead of your quite long 30".
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I would never buy a bow because it is 5 or 10 fps. faster than another bow. Accuracy at hunting ranges is my number one concern. So I'm looking for the bow I can personally shoot the best. If it is faster than average then that is just icing on the cake.
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Originally posted by Jim Wright:
I have not followed this thread until this AM and just read all 7 pages. As in similar ones before, there are a number of results in f.p.s. posted that exceed anything ever obtained in professionally conducted tests such as those done by Blackie Schwartz for Traditional Bowhunter Magazine. It might be interesting if someone would do a "fastest chronograph" review and posted the results.
A number of the bows that have been refereed to in this post HAVE been professionally tested using very precise grain scales on arrow shafts. and exact draw lengths using a digital micormeter & run through two separate chronographs.... not only have these bows been professionally tested, there are high speed video clips available showing the limbs in slow motion.....
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202013/Sasquatch%20SS/Testfulldraw6228.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/kirkll/media/Bows%202013/Sasquatch%20SS/Testfulldraw6228.jpg.html)
Here are a bunch of high speed videos you can look at.
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/HS%20video/th_EaglewingLB.jpg) (http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/HS%20video/EaglewingLB.mp4)
Originally posted by michigan bill:
you guys wanna see "fast?"
check out the Black Swan web site.
www.blackswanarchery.com (http://www.blackswanarchery.com)
295 fps is FAST!
bill
Those numbers were "IBO" numbers... IBO requires a minimum of 5 grains per pound.... we are testing at 9 & 10 GPP which is what an average hunter uses on a Trad bow.... a lot of guys use heavier arrows than that too.
Originally posted by heartlandbowyer:
Thanks guys for the input, didn't mean to poke the hornets nest. I just wanted a good baseline so I could be a better bowyer. I want to make the best possible bow I can and I can get a lot of valuable opinions and info from you guys.
Thanks,
Cory
Hey Cory, You didn't kick a hornets nest at all. You just have to learn how to take a lot of these posts with a grain of salt... There are a lot of guys that value their Traditional equipment for different reasons and just feel more confident with gear that stays within their comfort level. regardless of the next generation of higher performance bows available now and coming out more and more every year, some guys just feel better sticking with what they are used to.....I can respect that.
The guys that say faster bows with higher efficiency are harder to shoot need to be ignored completely..... If these same guys would just bring their arrow weight up to what makes them feel comfortable they would find these higher performance bows fly with a flatter trajectory and hit harder than the slower ones do.... But that's fine bro....we can't win over all the guys that continue to say "speed doesn't kill", or "speed doesn't matter"... they get their share of game and are happy.... what is that old quote about "ignorance is bliss"..... You just keep building the highest performance, smooth shooting bow you can. There are plenty of archers out there that really do appreciate the extra effort you make.
There are not a lot of bowyer's willing to stick their neck out about performance on the archery forums. The actual speeds from identical bows vary a lot depending on materials and draw weights. As much as i would love to do it, i cannot guarantee all my bows are going to ring the bell at 200 fps.
but here is a fact for you as a bowyer.... if you continue to try to refine the little things to increase limb stability, smooth out the draw cycle, and eliminate all the vibration and hand shock you can after the shot.... The speed and efficiency will increase proportionately. If you want to push the envelope after that, you need to use a shooting machine with your chrono testing to monitor your gains. I've found the use of high speed video can be helpful when studying pre-load levels at different brace height, and how to go about getting the limbs stopping clean with minimal limb bulge.....There is a lot to this stuff bro.... Kirk
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Kirk, thanks for all your input. I will continue to strive to be a better bowyer. I learned some valuable info from you and Steve on the thread, and I'll take any info I can get especially when I don't have anyone close to learn from.
Cory
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Kirk,
The more I read your posts, the more I like what you say.
I find that many people get "speed" and "efficiency" confused. I can take any old bow and make it shoot fast by using a dangerously lightweight arrow. Now, if I take a highly efficient, high performance, great shooting bow, I can shoot lightweight arrows and get fast speeds. Or, as I prefer, I can choose to shoot moderate to relatively heavy weight arrows in the same bow and get better results than I would with a less efficient, poor performing bow. Just because I may shoot a high performance bow doesn't mean I have to shoot high speed arrows.
One doesn't have to be a "speed freak" in order to enjoy or "covet" high performance, efficient bows, even if that bow is, gulp, Heaven forbid, a trad bow. ;)
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Kirk, is the aluminum riser jig so you can change pad angles and mount location without making a new riser during r and d?
Or is it a jig for drilling alignment holes in limbs?
Cory
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Kirk, is the aluminum riser jig so you can change pad angles and mount location without making a new riser during r and d?
Or is it a jig for drilling alignment holes in limbs?
Cory
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Yeah, my take on these highly efficent bows is I bought one and dropped several pounds in draw weight and am shooting the same arrow that used to be 10gpp and now it's about 11 to 11.5 gpp and shooting it just a few fps faster. I shoot better longer and it's still not insanely fast, but it's still faster than most because of my monkey armed 31" draw.
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Great post , Kirk.
IMHO: without you and other cutting edge bowyers, constantly pushing the "speed factor", in developing more high performance bows, then we would not be enjoying the tremendous amount of high performance bows that we can choose from today.
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Thanks Bill, I appreciate that... :)
Originally posted by heartlandbowyer:
Kirk, is the aluminum riser jig so you can change pad angles and mount location without making a new riser during r and d?
Or is it a jig for drilling alignment holes in limbs?
Cory
Yup... i use that to mount prototype limbs at any pad angle i want from flat to 35 degrees, and go from 12" to 22" riser length.... It works pretty slick for fine tuning your pre-load without using shims.
here's a better picture of it. i use a mill for boring my TD hardware.
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202013/Sasquatch%20SS/IMAG0896.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/kirkll/media/Bows%202013/Sasquatch%20SS/IMAG0896.jpg.html)
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Bows%202013/Sasquatch%20SS/IMAG1037-1.jpg) (http://s171.photobucket.com/user/kirkll/media/Bows%202013/Sasquatch%20SS/IMAG1037-1.jpg.html)
Trying to get the same performance out of the same identical set of limbs with different riser lengths and over all bow length can be tough to pull off. Often times a slightly different pad angle can make a huge difference in the stacking point as well as damping. Kirk
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Kirk,
That is a sweet jig, I would really like to get a mill but its a bit out of my price range right now, unless I could find a used one cheep then maybe.
I have found too that a degree or less can change a bow totally so that riser jig would be prefect. I might have to find a machinist and see what it would cost to make one.
Cory
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I maybe blissfully ignorant and my info maybe skewed according to some but if you read my first post it contained a question/ statement that no one including 2 bowyers and quite a bit of others have not answered : at 15yds(avg hunting/killing distance) what does it matter if your bow is 160fps or 190fps when their is only 4/100's of a second involved in difference? By the way the drops stated earlier were way off. It would take approx. 35yds distance to reach close to a full second of time. What say ye all?
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From all these posts about how fast a deer can move out of the way of an arrow at even 15'..I'd say 4/100's of a second may be a long time for a deer.
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You just can't help but learn from these guys.....
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Charles, I think on a calm animal and a great shot it probably doesn't matter. But if I miss my spot by 3 inches or the animal flinches etc and I hit shoulder the extra kinetic would probably help my arrow through the bone and possibly through the far side which would give me a higher percentage of a good blood trail and recovery.
If I'm shooting a 550 gr arrow at 160fps ke = 31.27
If I'm shooting a 550 gr arrow at 190fps ke = 44.1
Heck I don't know maybe the KE don't matter that much but why not shoot the more efficient bow especially if the bow is a great shooter with extra speed.
Cory
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the following numbers were in one of the bowhunting magazines some years back.
Shooting an "average speed" hunting arrow at 175 fps results in the following:
if a deer is 10 yards away and looking at you when you shoot it can duck 3 inches. if it is not looking at you (at 10 yards) it can duck 2 inches.
if a deer is 15 yards away and looking at you when you shoot it can duck 8 inches. if it is not looking at you (at 15 yards) it can duck 6 inches.
that should about settle all questions, eh?
bill :goldtooth:
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Originally posted by heartlandbowyer:
Charles, I think on a calm animal and a great shot it probably doesn't matter. But if I miss my spot by 3 inches or the animal flinches etc and I hit shoulder the extra kinetic would probably help my arrow through the bone and possibly through the far side which would give me a higher percentage of a good blood trail and recovery.
If I'm shooting a 550 gr arrow at 160fps ke = 31.27
If I'm shooting a 550 gr arrow at 190fps ke = 44.1
Heck I don't know maybe the KE don't matter that much but why not shoot the more efficient bow especially if the bow is a great shooter with extra speed.
Cory
I agree there. Maybe it doesn't matter much the time it takes for the arrow to get there but there's a hell lot more energy in that faster arrow. Will it matter for penetration? There's 2 schools of thought and one of them believes penetration is determined by arrow mass not speed the other believes in KE. Not going start an argument there. But just imagine scenario where a 500 grain arrow is shot out of a 25# bow vs a 50# bow at a higher speed.
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Originally posted by cbCrow:
I maybe blissfully ignorant and my info maybe skewed according to some but if you read my first post it contained a question/ statement that no one including 2 bowyers and quite a bit of others have not answered : at 15yds(avg hunting/killing distance) what does it matter if your bow is 160fps or 190fps when their is only 4/100's of a second involved in difference? By the way the drops stated earlier were way off. It would take approx. 35yds distance to reach close to a full second of time. What say ye all?
:saywhat:
I detect frustration in your post.
Blissfully ignorant? Definitely not. Looking for answers in the wrong places? Maybe.
Umm, not meaning to offend you but.....maybe no one answered your question/statement because you're not the original starter of this thread? That's the person that people should be really concerned about answering.
Perhaps you should start a thread posting your question to the get answers you're looking for. :dunno: :)
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Originally posted by cbCrow:
I maybe blissfully ignorant and my info maybe skewed according to some but if you read my first post it contained a question/ statement that no one including 2 bowyers and quite a bit of others have not answered : at 15yds(avg hunting/killing distance) what does it matter if your bow is 160fps or 190fps when their is only 4/100's of a second involved in difference? By the way the drops stated earlier were way off. It would take approx. 35yds distance to reach close to a full second of time. What say ye all?
The answer you are looking for is, the deer doesn't care how fsdt the arrow is going. Deer can duck the string of just about any bow, including wheel bows. However, last I checked, deer don't buy bows nor do they shoot them. I prefer fast bows to slow bows because they shoot flatter and are actually MORE forgiving than slow bows. The quicker the arrow if off the bow the less time i have to mess up the shot.
Looping trajectories are harder to estimate and the more launch angle you need, the farther the arrow has to travel, so time in the air will actually be greater than the times you calculated. The times you calculated are straight line times. Also, arrow drop actually accelerates with time, so a slight increase in flight time corresponds to increasingly larger arrow drop. The simplest waytto calculate it is to assume a horizontal launch angle, calculate time to a distance, then use that time to calculate arrow drop using this
H = 0.5*g*t^2
H is in feet, g = 32.15 ft per second squared, and t is time in seconds.
Do the equation yourself. That is the real difference between 160 and 190 fps. At 15 yds, an arrow moving horizontally at 160 fps drops 15.2". The same arrow going 190fps drops 10.8". The difference gets more and more pronounced with increased range.
You certainly don't have to shoot a fast bow, but a fast bow has very real advamtages over a slow one.
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AAAAHHHH! Trajectory.......
Gotta love a little speed. I have not run my favorite set up through a chrono....maybe I will when I have the chance. I dont dwell on it. I will take speed if I can get it in a bow, so long as the grip and draw and just overall pleasure of shooting the bow is there. I dont obsess over speed. I know my bow is not slow though and I reall like that. But I have to say, hats off to guys like Kirk... craftsman who are building these great bows to efficiently zip an arrow on the faster side of the scale....you are surely making possetive contributions to our great sport!
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gringol, heck of a job there! I admire your pluck and thank you for pointing out my error in time. This would give you a 4.4" difference which is closer to what I got instead of 7". Now I like to take this time to say that I was definitely wrong for hijacking this thread and hope that Corey and all involved will accept my apology. I had only good intentions but did it all wrong. Chuck
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Chuck, no apologies needed no ones feelings got hurt. Being a relatively new bowyer I'm just trying to get everyone's thoughts so I can build the smoothest most efficient bow I can.
Cory
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i think this whole thread has been handled pretty well by both high performance fans, and others that feel more comfortable with their current set up and the trajectory it offers.
if you guys want to have some fun checking out trajectory differences. set up a piece of card board, or a frame with a large piece of butcher paper stretched across it you can move. set your card board at 10 yards in front of your target and cut a 6" hole in it.... then go back to twenty yards and shoot through the hole to hit your target..... this simulates shooting through brush or vine maple we have a lot of on the west coast..... after you get to where you have the right elivation going to hit your target perfectly through the hole, step back five yards and shoot again... you'll be amazed at what happens.
i've done it with a shooting machine set up hitting bulls eyes, then put the paper up mid way to measure the top of the cord or arch at different yardages. i used a laser levet to measure the exact elevation of the bulls eye and the shelf of the bow... its amazing how much short distances change the height of your trajectory curve..... it's also amazing how much 20 fps makes a difference on hunting weight shafts..... fun stuff. :thumbsup:
.
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That sounds like a cool experiment, kirk.
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Originally posted by duncan idaho:
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"Deer don't buy bows but hunters both buy bows and shoot them. To this day I have never had a single hunter that wanted to buy a slow bow. Never. Therefor , I will build the fastest bow I can build that is well mannered, Quiet and accurate."
God bless you all, Steve
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Quoted for absolute truth. I never seen someone posting about their pride and joy and start out by saying, "she is sold, stable, and sooooooo slow", man, what a dream bow!" Thats why all the comments that "speed doesnt matter", rings of severe hypocrisy.
In my three years working in the business for an archery company, I can honestly say that when i would receive a phone call or email concerning a particular bow, 9 out of 10 times the first question was "How fast is it?" There are a lot of people who say speed doesn't matter...but they are the very same people asking that question in private..it seems like there is a taboo in traditional archery that shuns a person if they show an interest in speed.
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Aha!! Lee Viv is an honest man. That is exactly what I run into. Its almost always the first question.
The answer I love is this. Enough
God bless, Steve
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I don't know if it's a taboo for traditional archers to talk about speed or a "where do you draw the line" kind of issue. I have no idea how fast my main hunting bow is, but I do know that it is faster than any of my other bows, which is why it is my main hunting bow. It matters a lot when I am shooting through trees, as Kirk says above. But at the end of the day we're still talking about traditional bows. I can't speak for every trad guy on here, but for me the day I chrono, tune, adjust, tinker or whatever to get that extra 10 fps is the day I put down the long bow and go get myself a set of wheels.
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For those wondering how much difference in trajectory a faster arrow will make for your bow, check out this calculator. If you know the numbers at one arrow weight it approximates what your bow will do at other arrow eights and calculates the trajectory of each....
Arrow trajectory calculator (http://www.outdoorsden.com/archery)
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That is interesting, think I need to save it.
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I started shooting recurves before wheels or traditional archery.
Myself and the people I hunted and shot with wanted the newest, fastest, flattest shooting, best preforming and most modern bows and equipment available. I still do and speed is at the top of my list.. so I set my recurves up to squeeze every fps I can get out of them.
I shoot over 12 gpp arrows..but I want some zip on them.
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Running my numbers through that calculator is making me like my 8.5 gpp setups even more.
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i played with that calculator a bit and it sure doesn't match the trajectory of my hunting bow...
Also ....the estimated difference in speed from 10 gpp to 9 gpp shows 12 fps. In most cases on the bows i've tested it"s closer 6 fps.... i wonder if there is a sliding scale for bows with more or less effeciency?....
It sure is good to see all these archers who appreciate high performance coming out of the closet here.....
:clapper: :clapper: :clapper:
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I think Kirk is right. Change from 9 to 10 gpp made a bigger diff in some bows - I saw 5-12 fps changes in the 10 bows I tested. No real change in noise though. But at 8gpp noise changed and speed jumped about the same. I doubt the calc has all the bows real eff curves.
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The key to the calculator is the fact that any bow will have about the same kinetic energy across different arrow weights with the KE increasing slightly as arrow weight increases. This is simple physics and careful testing will confirm. If you are not seeing similar velocity differences between arrow weights, with all due respect check your testing.
Different designs however will show a larger difference between heavier and lighter arrow KE. The more efficient the bow the less difference there will be. (Faster bows maintain KE better with lighter arrows). This explains why for example Hill style bows are "great with heavy arrows". The real thing here is they lose efficiency quickly as arrow weight decreases because of the heavy limbs and perform poorly in comparison the lighter arrows.
When I designed the calculator I decided to not include a factor for bow design to keep it simple, so it does equal energy at all arrow weights. In the most extreme case this would only amount to about 3 fps error on an slow bow btween 8 and 12 gpp inputting at either extreme.
As far as trajectory is concerned this again is simple physics. There is a "ballistic coefficient" built in to allow for arrow velocity loss. This is averaged out and reflects traditional type arrows at traditional bow speeds. Again for simplicity and the fact that at normal ranges (out to 35 - 40 yards) there would be very little difference I fixed this value. This is also the reason the chart only goes to 40 yards. Much past that there are too many variables to be accurate and keep it simple. As an interesting note, for typical arrows used in olympic style competition at about 100 yards the arrow can actually increase in velocity slightly as it travels the last half of its flight - try building an accurate trajectory calculator for that!
This trajectory is from a zero line of sight perspective. That is the baseline and will seem accurate for instinctive shooting. If you are using sights or a consistent gap method using the arrow tip then the distance between the arrow (anchor point) and the line of sight (your eye) will effect the trajectory from that point of view. The trajectory will seem flatter as the distance between the anchor point and eye increases. Best to experiment to see how your style would effect this.
The base line trajectory in this calculator is ok. Two companies (excaliber crossbows and Nikon optics) have both consulted with me when developing their range compensating scopes. They saw the calculator of course wanted the behind the scenes details, mainly on how the arrow velocity loss was determined.
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Thanks for the explanation. Great program!
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I started shooting recurves before wheels or traditional archery.
"Myself and the people I hunted and shot with wanted the newest, fastest, flattest shooting, best preforming and most modern bows and equipment available. I still do and speed is at the top of my list.. so I set my recurves up to squeeze every fps I can get out of them.
I shoot over 12 gpp arrows..but I want some zip on them."
______________________________________________
Sir,
You got that right! :clapper:
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I'm sure this has all been talked about many times, but how fast is fast. Is a bow that shoots 180fps w/ 10 gpp pulled to 28" with finger release considered fast?
It all depends on what you are comparing. That is smoking fast with a selfbow, and is very respectable (real world) speed with a longbow or recurve. Compared to wheels, it's a slug.
I still do and speed is at the top of my list.. so I set my recurves up to squeeze every fps I can get out of them.
Don't take this the wrong way, but statements like the above just confuse me. Why shoot traditional if speed is at the top of the list?
To me that's like souping up a Model T or a lawnmower for a NASCAR race. So what if you can get 75 mph from a Model T or a lawnmower?
Like someone else mentioned earlier in the thread (sorry, I can't remember who and I don't want to go back and look), I must be using the wrong chronographs. Mine and the umpteen others I've used over the years don't show anything close to the speeds I've seen reported. Haven't seen any independent professional test results that did either. If you want to talk "AMO" (or IBO? I get them crossed up) speed (5 gpp drawn to 30"), breaking 200 fps with a longbow is no great feat. I've seen 232 fps with a longbow pulled to 29", and it's not one who's claim to fame is speed.
The main difference in accuracy with any bow is the variable pulling the string. For me, if I'm buying a new bow the first thing I'm going to check out is the bowyer or company's reputation, the actual (written, not spoken) warranty,and if I've had personal dealings with the bowyer or rep. If my experience tells me I can't trust a bowyer or rep, I won't deal with them, period.
Anyhow,...back to the original question--it's all relative. Fred Bear, Howard Hill, Ben Pearson, Pope & Young, etc. all killed tons of game--including some HUGE animals, and some of them also did some amazing trick shooting--with bows that shot so "slow" that some folks wouldn't even consider shooting them these days. Funny huh?
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Yup.... and Fred Bear, Howard Hill, And Ben Pearson all worked their buns off trying to build bows with better performance too... Bear and Pearson went on to build compound bows.... Human Nature will always try to build a better mouse trap.... It's fun, and has its advantages.
Personally i like those old 32 Ford Vicky's with the Hemi and Flames running down the side... :thumbsup:
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Bear and Pearson went on to build compound bows
Yep--and why did they do that, rather than try and perfect a longbow or recurve?
Doesn't really matter--the point was they showed time and time again you don't need a bow that is pushing 200 fps to kill anything on the planet, or make amazing shots.
Hill didn't chase speed--he also proved that you can make amazing shots and kill anything that walks with a "slow" bow.
Personally i like those old 32 Ford Vicky's with the Hemi and Flames running down the side...
Don't see any of those where speed is the #1 priority either.
I don't have anything against a bow that performs well, but if speed were my #1 priority... obviously I'd follow the lead of Bear, Pearson, etc.
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Everyone sets their own limits. I personally don't care for carbon limbs and prefer longbows to recurves. So, I don't shoot the fastest trad bows available, but within my parameters I prefer faster bows to slower ones.
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why did they do that, rather than try and perfect a longbow or recurve?
Oh but they did brutha.... So did Black widow, Bob lee, A&H, Centaur, Dryad etc... etc... And... they continue to do so every year..... Do you have any idea how much money and time is invested by these companies developing new models and designs every year with better all around performance as their goal? Higher performance means just that. Smoother draw, better stability, flatter trajectory, better penetration...
It's the individual archers preference whether he would rather use lighter weight shafts and get more speed, or use heavier shafts and get more power for less draw weight pulled.... the primary goal ISN"T SPEED here brutha... Speed is a means of measuring performance levels.... nothing more.
You are constantly looking for better string building materials to provide the best product for archers to use on their bows.... Making statements about not needing higher performance bows to do the job is just like saying we don't need anything more than B-50 on our bows.... we all roll with the flow, or get left in the wake to watch the others.... I say lets rock and roll!
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Amen brutha, anyone who takes self pride in there work is always trying to better himself/herself and their product. When you get to the point where you can't improve its time to take on another quest.
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The part where ScouterMike points out that the arrows for olympic shooters speeds up towards the end of the 100 meter shots remnded me of a what a compound shooter said once. It makes perfect sense that those long shots with target arrows speed up as they start coming down. However, at one shoot two chronos were set up. They were complaining that they were reading some of the trad bows fast and all of the compounds slow. One compound fellow said that his bow was a lot faster than his numbers because, as he said, "Everyone knows that the arrow shot from a compound takes 20 yards or more to get up to full speed." I think had a bit of a stroke from laughing and I apologized for that. We must not forget that with this search for a faster bow that not all bows work the same for all people. As an example, I have had a couple of very fast target bows. they were great, but I could not ever rip off an accurate frantic fast shot like when I jump a pheasant and rip one off with a longbow. Some bows react more to shooter errors than others. In real life we do not always have the time to cross our toes,curl the lip just right, and everything else just so to keep the bow happy. Hopefully, with advancing bow designs that forgiveness and pointing ability will not be forgotten. I suspect that is why so many are finding that is why they do best out hunting with Hill style longbows. The combination of a very versatile form blended with a very versatile fast handling bow can be just the answer. Now if we can have that and speed, that would be good. John Schulz could make a very fast bow and still stay within those parmeters, but he went back to a slower design and found that his shooting improved.
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Velocity is a rather significant part of the kinetic energy equation. How much energy is necessary to be successful is another discussion altogether.
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Originally posted by Hoyt:
Originally posted by LBR:
I'm sure this has all been talked about many times, but how fast is fast. Is a bow that shoots 180fps w/ 10 gpp pulled to 28" with finger release considered fast?
It all depends on what you are comparing. That is smoking fast with a selfbow, and is very respectable (real world) speed with a longbow or recurve. Compared to wheels, it's a slug.
I still do and speed is at the top of my list.. so I set my recurves up to squeeze every fps I can get out of them.
Don't take this the wrong way, but statements like the above just confuse me. Why shoot traditional if speed is at the top of the list?
To me that's like souping up a Model T or a lawnmower for a NASCAR race. So what if you can get 75 mph from a Model T or a lawnmower?
Like someone else mentioned earlier in the thread (sorry, I can't remember who and I don't want to go back and look), I must be using the wrong chronographs. Mine and the umpteen others I've used over the years don't show anything close to the speeds I've seen reported. Haven't seen any independent professional test results that did either. If you want to talk "AMO" (or IBO? I get them crossed up) speed (5 gpp drawn to 30"), breaking 200 fps with a longbow is no great feat. I've seen 232 fps with a longbow pulled to 29", and it's not one who's claim to fame is speed.
The main difference in accuracy with any bow is the variable pulling the string. For me, if I'm buying a new bow the first thing I'm going to check out is the bowyer or company's reputation, the actual (written, not spoken) warranty,and if I've had personal dealings with the bowyer or rep. If my experience tells me I can't trust a bowyer or rep, I won't deal with them, period.
Anyhow,...back to the original question--it's all relative. Fred Bear, Howard Hill, Ben Pearson, Pope & Young, etc. all killed tons of game--including some HUGE animals, and some of them also did some amazing trick shooting--with bows that shot so "slow" that some folks wouldn't even consider shooting them these days. Funny huh? [/b]
You asked me "Why shoot traditional if speed is at the top of the list?"
Because I don't shoot "traditional" I shoot recurves and don't like the draw cycle in compounds. [/b]
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Hoyt, could you explain your last comment, I don't quite know what you mean by that?
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Three times is a charm?
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cbCrow..I meant in my last couple of posts that I started out shooting recurves back in the 50's as a kid when everybody shot either self, long, recurve or cross bows.
The people I shot with shot recurves for hunting and Field Rounds. We were all looking for the newest bows to hit the market with the best speed and all around performance. "Traditional Archery" wasn't around back then..nor wheel bows..the people I knew shot aluminum arrows because they were better all around than the previous fiberglass and wood.
I didn't know anybody that wanted to go backwards in time and shoot slower arrows or bows all that came about with "Traditional" after compounds..in the circles I traveled anyway.
My point was when I said I don't shoot "Traditional" I shoot recurves and don't like the draw cycle of compounds was I'm into the same things now as I was when I started with recurves..the newest, fastest, best preforming bows out there. Foam, carbon, I don't care what it's made out of if I like the looks and feel. I don't romance the wood or get off on the smell of cedar, etc..just like recuves and not the compounds, releases, etc.
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Thank you for the exlpanation, I started a little later then you back in the early 60's shooting a recurve also. Even then their always seemed to be a quest for more speed and I finally succumbed in the mid 70's and got myself a compound because it was the be all and end all of this quest, but only found more contention and different camps of archers trying to convince others there way was the way to true Nirvana. There came a point when I started to long for a simpler, quieter way and made the transition back to "traditional shooting" even though everyone thought I was nuts. I love this sport and will stride to shoot as long as I can and cherish every moment that I do. Their is something about the flight of an arrow that stirs a feeling of contentment in me and inner peace. I have been shooting Hill bows and their like for the last 30 yrs and they have suited me well, even though their not balls of fire in the speed dept, but just plain feel good in hand. I believe threads like this one are good things that help clear the air and let others judge for themselves. I stand by my statement about giving up a little speed if for no other reason but for those feelings I tried to describe.
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Hey Scouter Mike, I have read that when you double the arrow weight you only lose half your velocity. Also a lighter projectile sheds its velocity faster.
Just wondered if your calculator reflects these two principles?
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To me that's like souping up a Model T or a lawnmower for a NASCAR race. So what if you can get 75 mph from a Model T or a lawnmower?
A better analogy is comparing nascar to formula 1. A car competing in nascar cant compete in formula 1. That doesn't stop teams from trying to squeeze every mph out of their car. I've got two black widows and was planing on buying a third. But seeing the dedication kirk at bigfoot has to trying to make the best product he can has me considering to get on his waiting list.
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Originally posted by onewhohasfun:
Hey Scouter Mike, I have read that when you double the arrow weight you only lose half your velocity. Also a lighter projectile sheds its velocity faster.
Just wondered if your calculator reflects these two principles?
Well if you double the arrow weight out of a bow (this would be difficult as you would be using an arrow at least at one extreme that is way beyond the parameters the bow was designed for) then with the bow giving equal energy to both arrows (the heavier arrow will always have a little more energy) then the heavier arrow should have a velocity of about 70.5% (from the calculator or just back figuring using the KE formula) of the lighter arrow. I would not even begin to predict what would happen with arrow weights that far off design parameters though, I do not abuse bows to test.
A lighter projectile, all else being equal, will shed its velocity quicker than a heavier projectile.
For example if you screwed in a heavier point with the rest of arrow remaining the same and it was flying off the bow equally well then it would lose velocity at a slower rate but it would also start out slower. As a note from what I have researched and tested, unless you are talking about fluflu type fletching, the rate of velocity loss of traditional type arrows at normal velocities stays in a fairly tight window.
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Making statements about not needing higher performance bows to do the job is just like saying we don't need anything more than B-50 on our bows
Get down to it, polyester bowstring will do the job just fine. I'm constantly tinkering with strings looking for the best durability, stability, and consistency. I'd happily use HMPE materials even if they were slower than polyester for these reasons. The speed difference isn't huge either way.
Bear, Pearson, Allen, etc. built wheel bows for the same reason they are built today. It was/is a business. Speed doesn't kill, but it certainly sells. Taking as much of the work out of it as you can sells. That's why all the bell's and whistles are so popular.
There are plenty of areas to work on improving other than speed...things that really count...but they often get ignored.
Because I don't shoot "traditional" I shoot recurves and don't like the draw cycle in compounds.
Never understood why "traditional" is a dirty word when it comes to archery. Either way, if speed/performance/whatever you want to call it is your #1 priority, then you won't be shooting a recurve--or any other traditional bow.
A car competing in nascar cant compete in formula 1.
But we don't have separate seasons for wheels and sticks, so when it comes to hunting it is like souping up a lawnmower to compete in NASCAR. You can have the fastest lawnmower around, you'll still get smoked on the track.
Again, I have nothing against a fast bow, it's just not the "be-all-end-all" for a hunter or competitor. I know guys that kill plenty of game with selfbows--lots more than a lot of others I know shooting the "fastest". Same goes for competeing. I've shot in multiple classes at some tournaments and my selfbow score (slowest) wound up being higher than my recurve score (fastest). Go figure.
The OP ask "how fast is fast", and 180 fps is knocked back like your bow is sub-standard if it won't shoot any faster than that. That's plain hogwash.
As far as being able to drop down in weight...you can quickly and cleanly kill a deer pulling 25#--I know a young lady who have proven this several times, and it wasn't with the fastest bow on the market. Didn't even have a "skinny" string.
Shoot what you like, but don't try to make the beginners that don't know any better feel like their equipment is crap because it's not burning the fletchings off every third shot. As long as they do their part, even a "slow" bow will work just fine.
A deer doesn't care how fast the arrow is flying when it goes through his lungs...or over his back.
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LBR, you can kill a deer with a .22 long rifle but that doesn't mean you should use it to hunt with. ;)
I know for a fact that there are lots of people who build self bows that continuously try to improve the "cast"(another word for performance) of their primitive equipment by steam-shaping them into better performing bows. Nothing wrong with making improvements with the bows you love without going to wheels just to gain a little edge.
I've read through this entire thread and nowhere have I found where anybody has insinuated that low performing bows are crap. Those are your words only, bro.
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This is not a debate on slow vs fast. It is about fast bows. Someone brought debate to the table and it really harms the thread;.
No one has said speed is the only thing. In fact I harp on quietness, shootability, quality of build. grip ect all the time and so do many others. Performance is then entire bow. Speed is not subjective though. It is one area in which a basic portion of the bow performance can be tested and quantified scientificaly instead of subjectively or speculatively.
We are all individuals and sometimes we see things differently. However as a bowhunting brotherhood and trad equipment brotherhood we should be open to others likes and dislikes without condemning them.
We have within our ranks some who have quit hunting but still love to shoot trad equipment. We have self bow owners , builders, shooters. We have primitives. We have people that love ILFs and some who LOve fancy wood. We have those that are strictly Hill lovers and some who shoot D and R longbow and others shoot recurves. We have those that like top mount takedowns and those that like belly mount takedowns.
We have those that want the best and fastest . the entire package and others that could care less about that but want rough and tough that they can throw out of a tree stand or use for a walking stick.
So these are some of the differences but to me it boils down to a stick,. a string , an arrow. That's it. How you do that or what you prefer is fine.
However I don't go on an I love slow bows thread , Never seen one. but if it existed I would not go there and run down people that like slow bows. Never met one but there must be at least one.
Speed does kill or you would be throwing slow clods of dirt instead of shooting a bow at all.
Subjectively its not a matter of whether or not speed kills or how fast is fast , or even how much or how little. Fact is it is in most people, me included. to do the best we can. I do not do get by in anything.
If I was stuck in a wilderness with some string I would pick the best stick I could find to build a bow with and the straightest arrow and the sharpest stones.
God bless you all, Steve
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:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:
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There were comments made that 180 fps isn't fast. I say that's hogwash--my opinion. The implication, to me at least, is your bow isn't "fast" until you break 190 or more. I've seen and heard it time and time again, and have seen people go from loving their bow to being flat dissapointed in it after shooting through a chrono.
You can kill rabbits with a .22, but will a .223 kill them "deader"? That seems to be the logic of some folks.
Sure people tweak selfbow designs--they like to challenge themselves. Never heard a selfbowyer say that speed is their #1 priority.
Those are LBRs words.
Yes, they are--it was the implication I got. I reckon my opinion means as much as anyone else's.
Steve, you obviously didn't read my posts closely at all. I noticed you went back and changed your post from this original, but you still missed it by a mile.
Those are LBRs words. I have not read that anywhere except from him. This is not a debate on slow vs fast. It is about fast bows. LBR brought debate to the table and it really harms the thread;.
No one has said speed is the only thing. In fact I harp on quietness, shootability, quality of build. grip ect all the time and so do many others. Performance is then entire bow. Speed is not subjective though. It is one area in which a basic portion of the bow performance can be tested and quantified scientificaly instead of subjectively or speculatively.
We are all individuals and sometimes we see things differently. However as a bowhunting brotherhood and trad equipment brotherhood we should be open to others likes and dislikes without condemning them.
We have within our ranks some who have quit hunting but still love to shoot trad equipment. We have self bow owners , builders, shooters. We have primitives. We have people that love ILFs and some who LOve fancy wood. We have those that are strictly Hill lovers and some who shoot D and R longbow and others shoot recurves. We have those that like top mount takedowns and those that like belly mount takedowns.
We have those that want the best and fastest . the entire package and others that could care less about that but want rough and tough that they can throw out of a tree stand or use for a walking stick.
So these are some of the differences but to me it boils down to a stick,. a string , an arrow. That's it. How you do that or what you prefer is fine.
However I don't go on an I love slow bows thread , Never seen one. but if it existed I would not go there and run down people that like slow bows. Never met one but there must be at least one.
So LBR, your statements like speed doesn't kill but it certainly sells are imho./ Ignorant.
They display a lack of integrity concerning fact. Speed does kill or you would be throwing slow clods of dirt instead of shooting a bow at all.
Subjectively its not a matter of whether or not speed kills or how fast is fast , or even how much or how little. Fact is it is in most people, me included. to do the best we can. I do not do get by in anything. If I was stuck in a wilderness with some string I would pick the best stick I could find to build a bow with and the straightest arrow and the sharpest stones.
You seem to want to knock other people that feel like that . Its kind of like , I have an inferiority complex and you better be just like me. Or I will tell you off., LOL Which is exactly what you are doing and using strawmen to do so.
Anyway its a real rain on the parade attitude and I'm sorry to see it here.
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This is an another example of the benefits from fast bows.
When you're old and weak from health problems like me and still want to shoot recurves it's nice to be able to have one built that will give you a little extra speed for the poundage you are able to draw. That's why I had Kirk build a Sasquatch with triple carbon and foam limbs and no veneers 47# @ 29" 64" long. The bow shoots fast, flat and accurate, draws smooth as butter and is quiet. I can shoot the big Simmons Tree Sharks on heavy shafts and still get really quick arrows with good penetration. That's what it's all about when it comes to fast bows for me.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Iflytrout/Big%20Foot/FirstSession.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v71/Iflytrout/DEER/Turkeybuck301.jpg)
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found in another thread.
Most all are values reported by Blacky and using a 5 fps reduction to account for finger release average.
Note: there are a couple bows that were obtained from Pete’s World.
Recurve Bows………………………………………………………Length…Drw Wt…….FPS….Arrow Wt…..GPP
Hummingbird Bamboo Kingfisher T/D Recurve………..60……….47.5……….180……….426……….8.97
Fox High Sierra T/D Recurve……………………………………..60……….53.0……….185……….477……….9.00
Bob Lee Thunderbolt Recurvebow…………………………….60……….52.0……….186……….468……….9.00
Bob Lee Hunter Bicentenial Elite…………………………….…60……….50.5……….188……….453……….9.00
Black Widow SA V Ironwood T/D Recurve………………..60……….52.0……….187……….468……….9.00
Black Widow SA III T/D Recurve……………………………….60……….52.0……….182……….468……….9.00
Morrison Take-Down Recurve…………………………………...58……….52.5……….187……….473……….9.00
Dalaa T/D Recurve……………………………………………………..64……….53.0……….189……….476……….8.98
Predator 'Classic'…………………………………………………………60………50.5……….193……….454……….8.99
Bob Lee 'Hunter Bicentennial Elite'……………………………60……….50.5……….188……….453……….8.97
Great Plains Swift 'SR Swift Black Hawk'…………….……58……….50.0……….188……….447……….8.94
Black Widow 'PAX' (tulip wood)…………………………………60……….50.0……….189……….452……….9.04
Black Widow 'PCH' (Braz Rosewood/Tiger Mrytle)……58……….50.0………189……….450..........9.0
Dryad ILF 15" riser Xtra long ACS RC Static……….……62……….42.6……….193.........384……….9.0
BW KBX……………………………………………………………………….58……….50.2……….187……….452……….9.0
Longbows and Hybrids…………………………………………….Length…Drw Wt…….FPS….Arrow Wt…..GPP
La Clair Super Shrew Limited Longbow #25………………58……….53.0……….181……….477……….9.00
Acadian Woods Treestick T/D Longbow………………………62……….54.0……….181……….486……….9.00
Fox Reverse Handle Fennic Fox Longbow……………………60……….52.0……….176……….468……….9.00
Hornes Brush Bow T/D………………………………………………..60……….45.5……….182……….408……….8.97
BW PL X Birdseye Maple………………………………………………62…….…50.5……….185……….457……….9.05
ACS All Carbon Extreme…………………………………….……….64……….47.0……….195……….420……….8.94
Centaur Carbon Elite Longbow…………………………………….60……….51.0……….190……….457……….8.96
Tomahawk Diamond Series T/D Thunderstorm………...62……….53.0……….181……….477……….9.00
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>>----> Friend <----<<
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47# @ 29"
I wouldn't call that "weak" at all, and wouldn't have a problem hunting elk or moose with any decent bow at that weight. That's just me though.
For the...third time, I think? I'm not knocking a "fast" bow. Never did, in spite of the false implications.
I honestly and sincerely don't understand the emphasis on 5-10 fps. If 10 fps or 5# of draw weight were the deciding factor between a clean kill and a wound, I think the ethical thing to do would be to choose a different weapon. Again, that's just me.
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Hoyt you hit the nail on the head with what the extra speed can do when we get shoulder probs and want the most eff killing trad bow we can use
Kirk and steve you guys and a few others have pushed the trad bow to the next level keep on doing what you guys do best you have a gift that few have Thanks Shane
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Originally posted by Kirkll:
why did they do that, rather than try and perfect a longbow or recurve?
Oh but they did brutha.... So did Black widow, Bob lee, A&H, Centaur, Dryad etc... etc... And... they continue to do so every year..... Do you have any idea how much money and time is invested by these companies developing new models and designs every year with better all around performance as their goal? Higher performance means just that. Smoother draw, better stability, flatter trajectory, better penetration...
It's the individual archers preference whether he would rather use lighter weight shafts and get more speed, or use heavier shafts and get more power for less draw weight pulled.... the primary goal ISN"T SPEED here brutha... Speed is a means of measuring performance levels.... nothing more.
You are constantly looking for better string building materials to provide the best product for archers to use on their bows.... Making statements about not needing higher performance bows to do the job is just like saying we don't need anything more than B-50 on our bows.... we all roll with the flow, or get left in the wake to watch the others.... I say lets rock and roll!
Very well said. My thoughts exactly!
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Give it a rest Chad.... this isn't a debate. This thread was started by a new bowyer asking simply "How fast is Fast" i believe the whole intent was to get a answer from guys to see where the goals are heading in the research and development of his bows......
i'm going to answer your question point blank...
it doesn't matter to a lot of folks.... but it means a lot to others to get every bit of performance they can get.... to a bowyer it comes a bit at a time and a 5-10 fps jump is a good sign you are going the right direction.....
This thread isn't about "Why" you need higher performance, and if it was, it wouldn't last long.
It also has nothing to do with being "Traditional" or following the old Icons paths, so lets not go there....
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oooops! double post
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Well I for one am glad these guys are spending alot of time and money to get every fps they can out of trad equipment. Not only is it helping us in the field but it is raising the bar for all bowyers. They just keep getting better and better. The older I get the more I can use some extra speed. Shoulders just can't pull the weight any more.
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Give it a rest Chad....
Pardon me? Since when do you decide who gets to state their opinion? :laughing:
I would reply further, but I don't see any point in trying to explain things I didn't say to begin with.
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Lord, this post should be over on the LW! Personally, I appreciate any incremental speed that does not come with compromise. And I don't think in this day and time that it necessarily has to. I appreciate bowyers like Kirk that are devoting the time to extensive R&D necessary to squeeze out a few extra fps without sacrificing anything. (and I've never owned a Squatch) I'm even more impressed they have the courage to come on here and discuss it (while many more are remaining silent), knowing there will be calls for "burning the heretics" at the stake!
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We've certainly beat the dead horse on this one. Not sure why fast seems to be considered a dirty word in trad circles...at least in public. Unfortunately speed is really the only good measure we have of performance. Ive never heard of a bowyer measuring decibels or "smoothness". Those are very important, but they are more felt than measured. So, We are stuck with speed as our measure of performance.
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Originally posted by gringol:
Unfortunately speed is really the only good measure we have of performance.
Even that can be suspect. Ever heard of calibrating a chronograph? :D
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Actually there IS a good way to measure smoothness through charting the draw force curve. But... the differences in the actual feel of early weight , mid draw, and tail end stacking points are interpreted differently by different archers....
Some guys love the that early weight and the feel of a let off as the draw cycle drops below 2#'s per inch commonly found in recurve limbs.
Others like less early weight with a steady increase of PPI (pounds per inch)through out the draw cycle more common in a long bow limb.
Then we get a bit of each with the hybrid long bow.....If you get your geometry right i think the hybrid long bow limbs should be the world record holders.... check out the high speed video clips and watch what those limbs are doing after the arrow is gone... you got "The Chicken"... and you got the "Belly dancers" and then you got a few in there that doesn't flop around much at all....
It's never ending brutha... Ain't no dead horses around my shop. :coffee: :archer2:
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...knowing there will be calls for "burning the heretics" at the stake!
Says who? Who even implied any such?
Not sure why fast seems to be considered a dirty word in trad circles...
Who said it was?
I like fast bows. I own fast bows. Speed just isn't my #1 criteria. I can be honest and say if all I was worried about was speed, I'd shoot wheels.
When did it become a crime to have a different opinion, and dare state it honestly?
If I said something that isn't true, just copy and paste my actual words (not what some pulled out of their imagination and accused me of) and set me straight. Otherwise...what is the problem?
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There's no problem, chad. You felt like the discussion implied that you have to have the fastest bow available. I think that was misconstrued on your part. I felt like you resented the discussion of speed altogether. Apparently you think I misconstrued your comments. I guess we're even. I appreciate your opinion, but some of your posts are coming across a bit combative.
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It always makes me laugh that it seems if someone, usually in the majority, has a problem with what you ask or say, your always the one who is creating the problem, or your upsetting the old apple cart? And then they always want to quantify there comments by telling you what they think. If, in my opinion, you can't accept someones opinion differing from yours, you need to re-think. This coversation is a good one that may help some people to think.
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Sorry about that. I do get defensive, based on previous experiences. Bad habit.
My friends bust on me for being "too honest". I tent do be blunt, and it doesn't always come across the way I intend it.
I was under the impression the OP was getting started in the sport and was concerned about speed. I guess because I've seen that time and time again, especially with those coming over from wheels. I didn't want him to think that he had to be getting 190 fps to make a clean kill.
Then I stupidly inserted a question I've had for a long time and have never gotten a clear answer to--went downhill from there.
I tried to go back to my original point by stating the facts that Hill, Pearson, Bear, etc. had all done amazing things with bows that, by today's standards, are "slow". Obviously my communication skills on a computer aren't great.
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quote:
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...knowing there will be calls for "burning the heretics" at the stake!
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Says who? Who even implied any such?
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Not sure why fast seems to be considered a dirty word in trad circles...
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Who said it was?
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I see from your post count you have been a member for a long time. I joined in 2005. You know from your experience that asking about "speed" in any form or fashion is "silently disapproved" from the majority of comments that are posted. You cannot ask a question about speed with out getting the "speed doesnt kill, its the broadhead!" type of comments.
This site is not the LW, you should be able to come on here and ask a decent question about speed, and not endure asinine comments.
So, yes, based on the past threads and the comments made, you will be burned at the stake. Yes, based on past threads, yes, speed is a dirty word on here.
If I came on here and asked which is faster a BW or a Morrison? I would be burned at the stake, fueled by comments like "speed is one for wheels, deer can dodge a bullet, so it does not matter"
Do a search on "speed" and the read comments that are posted. The OP always ends saying he is sorry for asking. so, yes, you will be burned at the stake.
If I am not insterested in a thread, I dont reply. That is a simple rule that more people on here should follow, especially on the speed threads
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This is America. What do Americans do? We tinker. We are never satisfied.
Is B 50 good enough when there are lighter, faster, stronger, quieter string materials out there?
I appreciate My #54 lb. bow that shoots like my #64lb. bow did 25 yrs. ago.
I hope guys like Steve and Kirk never stop R&D.
I'll take all the horsepower I can get.
Whats the downside?
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This topic has arrived and arrived quite a bit earlier than the 13th page at the same place it always gets to, whether it's here or at "the other" forum. It may be overly simplistic but whether you are hunting or shooting 3d it's pretty much the difference between 175-190 f.p.s. at 15 to 25 yards and really there ain't much.
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This site is not the LW, you should be able to come on here and ask a decent question about speed, and not endure asinine comments.
Obviously you don't think I should be afforded the same privilege. Quite a long post to say the obvious--nobody did say either of those things.
Whats the downside?
Didn't say there was. Nothing wrong with manufacturers developing cars that will run 200 mph, but that doesn't mean you need one to drive down the highway.
Interesting. I keep getting reminded about what site this isn't , yet you ignore the fact that I never attacked anyone. To the contrary, I'm the one who was attacked, based on nothing but false accusations.
Why? Because I was concerned about someone I thought was a beginner getting discouraged because he didn't have the "right" equipment. How silly of me to care.
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Nobody on here said you have to have a bow that shoots 180 or 190 fps at all. All I am seeing is that some people on here have a desire to shoot high performance bows and some don't. Nor did I see anyone "attack" anyone else. What I am starting to see though is lots of strong, needless, defensive comments.
Not everyone who is pointing out differences of opinions is directing them at you, Chad.
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"Obviously you don't think I should be afforded the same privilege. Quite a long post to say the obvious--nobody did say either of those things."
You will have explain that comment, because, I wasnt talking about you.
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How did this thread go from "How fast is Fast" written by a bowyer, to a Joan of Arch soap opra?
:dunno:
Would you guys please stop it?
I some times think this crap is done to purposely get a thread pulled. :dunno:
This thread is about the research & development a new bowyer is doing with the desire to build the best traditional bow he can.... We have a lot of other sponsors here that have the same goals... to provide a better product for Traditional bow hunters....
There is some good info on this thread.... If you guys mess around and get the thread pulled the info will be lost to everyone.
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Exactly what Kirk said. So many times there have been really great info threads pulled because of this. Perhaps the admins could figure a way to just delete posts that do not go to the thread instead of deleting an entire thread.
Anyway. How fast is fast? 180 is fast. It is more than adequate. For a belly mount it is faster than average.
So build from that. You can and will find places to improve as you are inspired. From the point you obviously are at I would start adding anything I could find that would increase overall performance and fit and finish.
God bless, Steve
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True Six by.....I'm on vacation and will try and clean it up and open it back up.....not sure what all was posted....but will review next week.