Trad Gang

Check out my prized Old Tom (3 years old):

  (http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z128/pcg_bucket/MillerOT1_zpsd5e4b4a5.jpg) (http://s191.photobucket.com/user/pcg_bucket/media/MillerOT1_zpsd5e4b4a5.jpg.html)

I was out practicing today and the bow blew up, de-laminating at almost full draw. This was a 50# @ 28". My full draw is only 27" so I never drew even to full. Today I was almost anchored and the bow popped. No prior warnings. Nothing. It just exploded.

Here's the good news. I was wearing safety glasses. If they had not been on, I'm convinced I would have lost one or both eyes this afternoon. When the bow blew apart, the string hit the lenses so hard that both were knocked out, one flying almost 25-feet.

The takeaway here is that it's imperative to ALWAYS wear glasses. I could not issue a more personal warning. Even the best bows blow out. Remember that Dan Schulz lost an eye in a similar incident many decades ago, and it's happened to other archers. Don't get careless out there.

Wow!,lucky. Glad you didn't get hurt.

I'm also very glad you weren't injured.

Mind if I ask a few questions? Arrow weight? String material and specs? Tip wedges?

It's a shame to lose such a beautiful bow but eyes are much tougher to replace!

I would talk to the bowyer. It may be out of warranty but they may work with you.

I am glad to hear that you are ok.  Dave is first class and . He is a wonderfull craftsman but natural materials do things out of our control. I'd call him and he will want to see the bow I'm sure, so he can look over glue joints and try to find out what went wrong.

Again, glad you are ok.

MAN! Glad you're OK.

Wow. Glad you had the glasses on, and that is sound advice you offer about wearing protection.

Thanks for warning.  I never wear glasses - never even thought about it.....oooyyyy

Glad you weren't hurt, thank God.

Patrick holy moly!!  I would take detailed pics and then call David and mail it right back to him for evaluation.  I'm sure a bowyer of his caliber would work with you.  These things happen.  This has given me pause.  I'm not sure I can bring myself to shoot with glasses, but I may try.

Edit:  wait a minute!  I just realized that's THE Old Tom!!  Pat what the heck man!!  ???????????

Like everyone else has already said...I am really thankful you weren't seriously injured. Praise God!

Let us know what you get figured out on the why of it.

God bless,Mudd

Very good to hear you were not hurt. Phewwww!!!

I can't believe that bow let go it was pristine and would have been 3 years old this December.  I don't wear glasses so by my dumb luck I AM NOT blind!!  Wow.  This is crazy.  That was such a beauty.  I am really sorry to see and hear about this Pat, I'm stumped.

Glad you weren't hurt. Thanks for the heads up.

I always wear glasses when I first shoot a new bow.  But once I am satisfied its good I don't wear them anymore.  Time to re-think the glasses thing.

I just went out and bought a pair, might seem a little over the top but I have a long way to go before I retire so better safe than sorry. I've had bows break and thankfully not a complete blow up, but it only takes one episode.

Thanks, all. I'm sulking. The bowyer says "unrepairable." So, on the one hand, I'm out a gorgeous & accurate bow. On the other, I can still see. Man, I got lucky.

I was shooting carbons--Easton trads perfectly spined for the bow. I'd spent a couple weeks tuning them to match and oh it shot well.

Regardless, think twice before shooting without glasses. Mine are prescription shooting glasses that I'd struggled to rationalize, but finally bought for the sharpness. I never imagined they'd save my eyesight as well.

QuoteOriginally posted by pcg:

I was shooting carbons

How much do they weigh? I had a Black Widow blow up on me once,limb got me in the top of the head and blood was running down my face,scary stuff. I didn't even realize what had happened for a few seconds after.Sent the limbs back to widow.They said the epoxy hadn't cured right and built me a new pair for free.

I just lost my favorite Hill longbow on the 4th.  Was having a nice day and thought I'd walk the trail on the back 40 and take a few shots before the evening celebration. First few shots felt wonderful. Draw for the fourth, and BAM!!, there goes the upper limb  :(  

I may have been jinxed.  I posted on a thread that encouraged guys to ditch their glasses for contacts when hunting with bows and arrows.  I made a post indicating that it was my opinion that everyone should be wearing safety glasses, good vision or not, when shooting bows.  I bring it up, and sure enough, it happens to me.  Got hit in the face by slivers of fiberglass from the belly of the limb.  Was wearing glasses, so nothing hit my eyes.

Mine was the single best hunting bow I've ever had, and I'm ill to the bone over the incident.  I truly can feel your pain.

Best  :)

QuoteOriginally posted by Mudd:
Like everyone else has already said...I am really thankful you weren't seriously injured. Praise God!

Let us know what you get figured out on the why of it.

God bless,Mudd

What Roy said!

Danny

Daddybear, did you buy the bow new or was it a used bow owned by several people?

How hot out was it when you had the bows let go? I was shooting the Widow on a day that was 90+. The heat softened the un cured glue just enough and Kaboom!!!

I've had 2 bows blow,   :scared:    at full draw, with no warning( one wheely bow and one browning nomad stalker (bought new))   You deffently need to "change your    :help:    out of my bow arm with the Wheely bow.

Temp when the Old Tom blew was about 88 F.

Sure glad you weren't hurt. I have polycarbonate lens in my regular glasses just in case, I've seen what a bow can do, firsthand, when it comes apart.

I tried shooting with my sunglasses/ safety glasses on today, just can't seem to be able to look the right way, always seem to look into the middle of the frame where it sits on my nose    :eek:    :dunno:  

Glad your O.K., and thanks for the warning.

I'm using wraparound glasses. I found otherwise I'd hit conventional sunglasses at full draw. With wraparounds, no problem.

Yes, I'd recommend the polycarbonate lens--almost break-proof. Can't say enough good things about mine.

Any one can recommend a brand of safety glasses that fit over regular glasses?

Try this on-line firm (I got my glasses here), and there are numerous frame varieties--all sports oriented. Perhaps some styles will fit over regular glasses.

https://www.sport-optix.com

QuoteOriginally posted by Ron Roehrick:
Daddybear, did you buy the bow new or was it a used bow owned by several people?

The bow was made for me, has been well maintained, no dry fires, B-50 strings, always 9 to 11 gpp arrows, not left strung for long periods, always use a bow pal stringer, kept out of the heat, and properly stored in a cool dry place. Not a post blast expert with determining cause of failures, but the belly lam of Rocky Mountain Juniper split within itself, like it was cleaved by a hatchet.  Don't believe it was a glue issue.  The lam split at the riser end and ran half way up the limb.  The bow was 5 years old this month.  Got a call in for the bowyer, Craig, to see what he says.

As for glasses, I switched to Randolph Rangers years back when I was a competitive rifle shooter in National competition.  Have stuck with them ever since, and they work well for me with my archery tackle.  This was the second bad incident I've had with archery tackle that I was glad to have glasses.  The other was when a broadhead tipped wooden arrow broke along the grain runout on a rift.  The front end of the broken arrow flipped back around with the broadhead smacking my glasses.  That would have been bad to catch on the eye.

later  :)

I'm trying to figure out how you got hit with the string???   Did it break?  It looks from the pic that the nock grooves are still there.

Did the bow have any limb tip wedge?

That's an aweful accident.  Glad you weren't injured.

Glad there were no injuries. Are those bamboo limbs? Wondering how it happened from the pic. Did the string split the limb?

Pat,
Glad you are alright!

Thanks, Jeff. Shaken, but not stirred!

The string was/is fine. The upper limb split across three lams (bamboo) and the release of energy from the shatter apparently released the string w/ crazy force. In the second after it popped I simply stood holding the grip, with a split bow,  realizing that whatever had happened had blasted the lens off my glasses. I was aware of the glasses before I realized that the bow had broken.

Glad you were not hurt.

Looks like a bad glue joint(where it started,then across 3 lams) from pics. As far as glasses......not for me. The bow is a part of me and I have to have confidence in it. Maybe if you were shooting one for the first time and the first couple of sessions. But after that if I was always wondering if a bow so going to break I would have trouble focussing. I have had bows blow up, in up to 5 piece explosions, but older lemonwood bows and I new the risk. To each their own though, I take lots of risks. No safety system in tree stands either, puts the the deer and me on the same risky playing field. Just glad they do not have bows. LOL

I stand by my 1st post on this subject but feel compelled to add this.

I am hoping that nothing that has been said here is taken in any way as a negative reflection on David Miller or his abilities as an outstanding person and bowyer.

Stuff happens.....I don't care what it is or who made/built it.. things sometimes fail.

Nothing said here or anywhere else would make me think twice about ordering another new bow from Mr Miller.

My 2 cents worth.

His servant, Mudd

Nor was my original post that started this intended to malign Mr Miller. I'm disappointed he isn't interested in even viewing the bow, but I'm not the original buyer and his policies are his policies. I suspect what happened was a "one in a million."

I would like to know total arrow weight that was shot out of this bow when it blew?

yup it is so   :scared:    :scared:    :scared:    when it happens. glad ya ok

-----------!

You take a risk whenever you buy a used bow. Was the bow ever dry fired,shot with too light of arrows,overheated,(overdrawn-non glass bow)etc. How can you be 100% sure?
My favorite bows aren't built anymore,so used is my only option.
I like them better than any current production bows I've tried,so the risk is worth it to me.
I plan on ordering a Hawk from Mr.Miller soon,because I won't take the chance on a used no glass bow anymore. (and because I have a LOOOOONg wait for my name to come up on Sunset Hill's list!)   :banghead:    :D

When I first started buying bows and making a few, I was told that all bows break sometime.  I think that's still the case even with modern materials.  I have never owned a Miller bow but like Mudd, I would buy one without hesitation.  These bowyers that make a lot of bows just can't stand behind every bow they make forever.

Whoa, wait a minute here-how is this Mr. Miller's fault in any way?

Yes, he built the bow and warranteed it to the original owner just like all the rest of Bowyers do. Now 3 years later and 3 owners and the bow comes apart. We still do not know a lot of facts that might explain this result.

I for one have experienced first hand, and second hand, bows blowing up in some fashion or another and never once did I think it was the bowyers fault. Almost always there was operator error involved or in some cases breakdown of materials-we are talking about wood here and wood by its very makeup is subject to failures when under stress-bending beyond normal.

Furthermore, Mr Miller will continue to receive the highest claims and credibility from me. Nothing contained within this thread has effected this  and some of you should be ashamed of your rhetoric.

Me for one, Am not buying this whole string thing

Forget it.

This thread has NEVER mentioned arrow weight. The bow was tuned with carbons.Lets start with the easy questions, finished arrow weight, fast flight or dacron string,was the bow left strung all of the time(I know it's glass) but have to ask? Thanks

We have a generation that believes someone else has to be responsible.
Millers responsiblility was and is to the original owner of the bow for the length of time he warranted the bow. Very nice bowyers have gone past this responsibility to the point that a lot of people take their niceness for granted and they are now demanding that a third bow owner get the bowyers interest.
Here is the problem. If Mr. Miller does that then he legally assumes a responsibility that he did not have just by examining the bow. It becomes a He said She said and in fact from what I have read here it is already like that. Any bowyer can look at that bow and immediately have a good idea what happened. They can also see that it had nothing at all to do with the bow or the build but it is the material itself that failed.
Generally this is a flaw in nature that is compeletly beyond the bowyers ability to have prior knowledge of. It may become activated by time alone , number of shots, or dry fire undisclosed by a previous owner. It could be that the tip of the bow hit a rafter while the shooter was shooting under the porch. What it was not as far as I can see is any kind of glue failure or fault of the bowyer.

I do not blame him for refusal to do this. If he did I would almost guarantee that the only thing that would make the owner feel better would be to get a new bow or reimbursement of his funds spent.
No bowyer that does this will be able to stay in business long.

Another thing. This entire thread is wrong IMHO. You name the bow and declare it blew up and almost took your eyes out and yet the pics do not show anything at all that could have taken your glass lenses out. That bow is still hung together. You may have got them knocked off your face and then they came out but that is a split and not an explosion.
No ax to grind on this from me and I do not even know Miller so its not personal but this thread defames him, his bows and puts his livelihood at jeopardy and in my opinion without just cause.

God bless you all, Steve

So what are we saying Pat was shooting a 50# bow with what 6-7 gpp arrows?  I'll wait for him to chime in but I'm not taking bets.  

It is/was a glassed bow.  I for one was doing 450+g finished arrows for 9 gpp, totally reasonable, shot @ 28" draw, FF string with muskrat silencers, bow unstrung every session excepting a few days where I shot it every day in a row.  Bow was a pleasure, was whisper quiet, shot like a dream, I just was not accurate enough with it for my skill/preference so on it went.

We have a generation that believes someone else has to be responsible.
Millers responsiblility was and is to the original owner of the bow for the length of time he warranted the bow. Very nice bowyers have gone past this responsibility to the point that a lot of people take their niceness for granted and they are now demanding that a third bow owner get the bowyers interest.
Here is the problem. If Mr. Miller does that then he legally assumes a responsibility that he did not have just by examining the bow. It becomes a He said She said and in fact from what I have read here it is already like that. Any bowyer can look at that bow and immediately have a good idea what happened. They can also see that it had nothing at all to do with the bow or the build but it is the material itself that failed.
Generally this is a flaw in nature that is compeletly beyond the bowyers ability to have prior knowledge of. It may become activated by time alone , number of shots, or dry fire undisclosed by a previous owner. It could be that the tip of the bow hit a rafter while the shooter was shooting under the porch. What it was not as far as I can see is any kind of glue failure or fault of the bowyer.

I do not blame him for refusal to do this. If he did I would almost guarantee that the only thing that would make the owner feel better would be to get a new bow or reimbursement of his funds spent.
No bowyer that does this will be able to stay in business long.

Another thing. This entire thread is wrong IMHO. You name the bow and declare it blew up and almost took your eyes out and yet the pics do not show anything at all that could have taken your glass lenses out. That bow is still hung together. You may have got them knocked off your face and then they came out but that is a split and not an explosion.
No ax to grind on this from me and I do not even know Miller so its not personal but this thread defames him, his bows and puts his livelihood at jeopardy and in my opinion without just cause.

God bless you all, Steve

QuoteOriginally posted by Sixby:
We have a generation that believes someone else has to be responsible.
Millers responsiblility was and is to the original owner of the bow for the length of time he warranted the bow. Very nice bowyers have gone past this responsibility to the point that a lot of people take their niceness for granted and they are now demanding that a third bow owner get the bowyers interest.
Here is the problem. If Mr. Miller does that then he legally assumes a responsibility that he did not have just by examining the bow. It becomes a He said She said and in fact from what I have read here it is already like that. Any bowyer can look at that bow and immediately have a good idea what happened. They can also see that it had nothing at all to do with the bow or the build but it is the material itself that failed.
Generally this is a flaw in nature that is compeletly beyond the bowyers ability to have prior knowledge of. It may become activated by time alone , number of shots, or dry fire undisclosed by a previous owner. It could be that the tip of the bow hit a rafter while the shooter was shooting under the porch. What it was not as far as I can see is any kind of glue failure or fault of the bowyer.

I do not blame him for refusal to do this. If he did I would almost guarantee that the only thing that would make the owner feel better would be to get a new bow or reimbursement of his funds spent.
No bowyer that does this will be able to stay in business long.

Another thing. This entire thread is wrong IMHO. You name the bow and declare it blew up and almost took your eyes out and yet the pics do not show anything at all that could have taken your glass lenses out. That bow is still hung together. You may have got them knocked off your face and then they came out but that is a split and not an explosion.
No ax to grind on this from me and I do not even know Miller so its not personal but this thread defames him, his bows and puts his livelihood at jeopardy and in my opinion without just cause.

God bless you all, Steve

I'll take that answer.  That was well said Steve.  TG wins again.  

I deleted my prior replies, gentlemanly that they were I would say by most standards, how many times can a person DISCLAIM that they were not faulting the bowyer...and I'll let my eyes glaze over again.  What this has taught me is that from now on anytime I see a post about a bow or bowyer that approaches veneration, I'm politely shooting it down pure and simple.  They're just bows right? It is just a product.  A fancy Samick Sage?  Show me the magic???  I've done it myself, and I've realized based on this thread its a fallacy.  It's just a smaller verson of shopping at Basspro or Walmart right?  Look what happened to someone like Milton Callaway?  Explain that one, why is no one coming to his defense?  Two sides to every story right?

First, the arrows were properly weighted to the bow & shot like a dream. The string was new. I was shooting out in the open. The bow had never been mishandled. The lam split at almost full draw, instantly shifting the back & belly in opposite directions at the tip, blasting the string off & into my eyes. No big deal. I took the experience as a lesson: Always wear glasses.

Anyone alleging that the thread defames Dave Miller has not read the comments carefully. The incident could have happened w/ any bowyer's bow, and is no doubt a simple materials failure. That said, I had expected Dave to want to examine the bow and I was quite willing to send it to him at my own cost if it could help with future bows he makes. He didn't express interest, and that too is okay with me. I never expected him to replace the bow, nor has that been implied. As noted, any bowyer who replaced every bow that had a problem would survive about 6 months. Bowyers are small businesses, not LL Beans.

Let's drop any further "defaming" discussion and remember the original intent of the thread. WEAR GLASSES when shooting. If you don't you shoot at your own peril.

From the shop of JDBerry, Thanks Sixby for your reply, Well said. James

Yes, except that he got it all wrong. The thread is a general warning to shooters. The bow maker is incidental to the incident. Period.

This should NOT be about bowyers defending bowyers, but about shooters shooting wisely.

QuoteOriginally posted by flint kemper:
This thread has NEVER mentioned arrow weight. The bow was tuned with carbons.Lets start with the easy questions, finished arrow weight, fast flight or dacron string,was the bow left strung all of the time(I know it's glass) but have to ask? Thanks

I inquired in the second reply to this thread and it has been brought up since then.

If OP had shot properly weighted arrows since he owned it, who knows if any of the previous owners mishandled the bow? We can only speculate.

I even wear glasses when stringing a bow...bows are big springs....enough said

On page 21 of "Shooting Straight," Schulz describes how his brother Dan lost his eye. It happened when he was unstringing a bow. The string popped off and the bow tip struck his eye. As damascusdave says above, "I even where glasses when stringing a bow..."

Don't think I've heard of a bow brand never having an issue. Wood isn't perfect, nor are all the materials.  I saw a pic of one the other day that was delaminated during tillering. You just have to hope it doesn't happen, or aren't hurt when it does.

I never took this thread as disrespecting the bowyer.  Most guys this happens to just keep their secret and deal with the bowyer. It happens to at least a few bows with all of them.

Many bow delaminations I hear about are in the south, or in really hot climates.  Leave em in a car and watch out!  One bowyer told me most of the bows with problems come from the southern states, it took a couple years to figure out how bad the heat was on the bows until looking back. TX was top of the list.

QuoteOriginally posted by Daddy Bear:
 

QuoteOriginally posted by Ron Roehrick:
Daddybear, did you buy the bow new or was it a used bow owned by several people?

The bow was made for me, has been well maintained, no dry fires, B-50 strings, always 9 to 11 gpp arrows, not left strung for long periods, always use a bow pal stringer, kept out of the heat, and properly stored in a cool dry place. Not a post blast expert with determining cause of failures, but the belly lam of Rocky Mountain Juniper split within itself, like it was cleaved by a hatchet.  Don't believe it was a glue issue.  The lam split at the riser end and ran half way up the limb.  The bow was 5 years old this month.  Got a call in for the bowyer, Craig, to see what he says.

As for glasses, I switched to Randolph Rangers years back when I was a competitive rifle shooter in National competition.  Have stuck with them ever since, and they work well for me with my archery tackle.  This was the second bad incident I've had with archery tackle that I was glad to have glasses.  The other was when a broadhead tipped wooden arrow broke along the grain runout on a rift.  The front end of the broken arrow flipped back around with the broadhead smacking my glasses.  That would have been bad to catch on the eye.

later   :)  [/b]

Craig wants me to mail him my Hill, thinks it can be repaired.  Keeping my fingers crossed, I'd hate to see her go.  As for the glasses, mine could have been very bad being I was peppered with glass fibers.  Got one sliver in my hand that I've yet to get out that's been a pain in the rears.  Glad I didn't get one in the eye.

Later  :)

Another thing that can cause a delamination is a dry fire do to nock failer. Your shooting really good one day, groups are really tight, and bam you hear an arrows slap. You pull your arrows and the next round, you have a dry fire.

It's happend to me several time. Now, every time I hear an arrow slap, I inspect my nocks and have one two occations found half of the nock chipped off.

I guess you could call it half a robin hood.

Something to think about.

Call me immature,
but my RH Miller just hit the classifieds for sale or trade.  Get it while its hot!  Lovely bow.

First off a little precaution never hurt. Since this thread I bought a pair and have shot with them and I don't have any issues shooting with the glasses on. So my thanks for the suggestion.

In most cases we can't fault the bowyer for a bow blowing up, but yes there can be some fault, though I do not believe it to be in this case. I bought a bow from the classified, non sponsor, still won't name him. Point is the bow cracked in the riser in  what I would call the crown of the riser. Very weird spot. After pictures were exchanged with the bowyer, he admitted that he changed the profile of the riser from a C shape to more of a standard L because of other bow failures such as mine. Long story short the design was at fault. So yes folks as great as our bowyers are and we are blessed with some real great ones, there can be reasons for bow failure other than the wood or the glue. But for the most part this is not a general case. It just means that a proven design can at times eclipse the value of the latest and greatest.

The name of the bowyer had no need to be mentioned in the thread if you weren't trying to draw attention to the bowyer......right?  Nuff said!

I'm sorry, but don't we draw attention to the boywers with our POSITIVE experiences???...like reviews or kudos, or "veneration" or whatever magical voodoo aura we all want to attribute to so-and-so-a bowyer cause their bow puts 'em where we want 'em?  Right?  That logic defies logic.  Should we go so far as to say NO negative reviews in the product review section.  I as of this moment propose that the mods ban any product reviews unless the TGer can prove with scanned receipt that they are the original purchaser of the item/bow.  So word of the day is "Praise public, punish private"...and this thread WASN'T even punishment to boot!  Just a share and some disappointment by one of those who bought into the love and aura like anyone else and had a scary experience.  

Anyway, indeed, lets stick to the main idea Pat highlights:  BE SAFE and be vigilant.  The rest is what it is.

I hate shooting with glasses for many reasons.  All activities, and especially hunting carries some level of risk...  That is one I am willing to accept.

NIneWorlds: how many times can a person DISCLAIM that they were not faulting the bowyer...

NineWorlds:Call me immature,
but my RH Miller just hit the classifieds for sale or trade. Get it while its hot! Lovely bow.

OK


God bless, Steve

Yes, be SAFE and VIGILANT, the main message from the original post.

The rest.........Whoa, Paranoia at best.

And this statement: "We have a generation that believes someone else has to be responsible." Really kinda bold accusation from someone worried about accusations.

Come to terms with the fact that stuff happens. Good luck out there.

I personally enjoy drawing back a bow and loosing an arrow unencumbered, with confidence and without fear.

I do not see many at 3d shoots or out hunting with safety glasses. Just an observation.

But wise to evaluate advice, so do so and make your decision. Then live with it.

Great posts Sixby. It is obvious Dave Miller is being attacked here, if you guys have something to say have the guts to say it don't hide behind another topic. Dave does and always has made a great bow.

It strikes me that if the OP had come on here and described a sudden catastrophic bow failure at full draw...and a near facial injury, that at least a dozen guys would have demanded to know something:

"Who was the bowyer?"

This tread is one for the books. I shoot firearms. Everyone knows about the need for eye protection. Some of us never thought about it for archery. So Patrick reminds us. But he mentioned the builders name. If a firearm blows we want to know what, kind of bullet, how old, and how much powder. We also want pictures. And the FIRST thing we want mentioned is the maker of the firearm. Now don't tell me you would not ask that. Thanks Pat. No foul.

QuoteOriginally posted by Claymore:
This tread is one for the books. I shoot firearms. Everyone knows about the need for eye protection. Some of us never thought about it for archery. So Patrick reminds us. But he mentioned the builders name. If a firearm blows we want to know what, kind of bullet, how old, and how much powder. We also want pictures. And the FIRST thing we want mentioned is the maker of the firearm. Now don't tell me you would not ask that. And Pat is all but accused telling a lie by one. Thanks Pat. No foul.

It is just my opinion but I think this thread has fulfilled it's usefulness and has in fact started to deteriorate into something very unbecoming of us.

Again, this is just one persons opinion..mileage may vary.

This will be my last word here.

Thanks for all!

God bless,Mudd

I agree mudd we need to heed the warning and move on.

The OP was a warning based on my experience. What occurred was not something I'd ever anticipated. I was lucky and I was wearing glasses that are prescription sports glasses. Their purpose was to sharpen long distance viewing. I never imagined they'd save my eyesight. The OP was a warning to TGers that was things can happen, regardless of your confidence and desire to be "one" with your bow. You'll never catching me shooting again w/o them.

That said, all attempts to turn the thread into something else are, as I've already written earlier, in error. No one has "attacked" anyone, although the defenders of said imaginary attack sure sprung up fast. I think nineworlds9 is accurate to describe paranoia and double standards here. How quickly a well-intentioned thread can be hijacked. Quite interesting, gents.

Everyone so inclined has read the post. As the OP I suggest we close this one down. If I were a moderator (and kudos to mods for letting this play out), I'd put a lock on it.

--Pat

QuoteOriginally posted by JohnI:
Great posts Sixby. It is obvious Dave Miller is being attacked here, if you guys have something to say have the guts to say it don't hide behind another topic. Dave does and always has made a great bow.

That's what a few of us did!!  And we got swarmed!  LOL.  At least we had the guts to speak our mind.  I deleted all my main comments because this discourse decayed into something unproductive.  Just as an example here:  apparently no one is allowed to 'name names' for fear of being turned on, but lo and behold via PM anything goes--the other day I had a TGer more or less tell me I'm a fool for owning a Callaway 21st Century..yeah lots of bad press out there about MC but that bow while not to the standard of the bow discussed in this post hasn't blown up on me...who knows it might, but you WATCH how fast a bunch of people would chime in bashing him if I posted a thread telling a similar story...cause of the history of posts built up about the guy and his rep for being prickly. In DM's case he has a much better rep than MC, whole different league most would say, but you can't just blindly defend someone because of the legacy preserved by their work (Schulz).  That would be like if Pat had written about a HHill bow coming apart and every Ekin fan chiming in and immediately saying 'for shame how dare you criticize our favored son!'  Sheesh.

QuoteOriginally posted by Mudd:
It is just my opinion but I think this thread has fulfilled it's usefulness and has in fact started to deteriorate into something very unbecoming of us.

Again, this is just one persons opinion..mileage may vary.

This will be my last word here.

Thanks for all!

God bless,Mudd

Yes I think Mudd and Pcg have pretty much summed it up.  Thanks LoneWolf for chiming in.

GOD DOES Watch Over ALL of Us!! Glad you werent Hurt!! Everytime we draw Our Bows Back, We set Ourselves up for Something to happen. Hopefully its All Good, but there is Always that Small Percentage..... I Agree, Diligence, and Observation is about the Best We can do, but Stuff Does, and Will Happen!!  :eek:  
 Like I said, Thank God YOU werent Hurt!!  :thumbsup:   Hope You got another Bow and are Slinging Pointy Sticks Again!!  :archer:

pcg,

I'm happy to see that you've changed the heading on your post because the original could only be viewed as an attack on David Millers' bows and I'm sure that it wasn't your intention. I own two Miller bows and have complete confidence in the materials used and the excellent quality of his build. We all assume some risk by drawing back on a device that stores so much energy and was designed to kill. It'll never be classified as a safe toy but relative to the number of shooters posting on this and other sites,the injury reports are very low.

May we all enjoy a lifetime of safe shooting.

pcg, Thanks for the thread, it is timely and it may save someone a serious injury.  I'll be sending my Hill back this week, and as of now, It's looking like Craig will be able to bring my prize bow back to life.

As for all these attempts to turn your thread into something it is not, you need not apologize, IMHO you are owed an apology.  How anyone can read so much into what you posted is beyond me, and having someone, who should know better, attack your version of events, is way over the top. Having freshly experienced my 67.5# Hill go in a split second with an extremely loud BANG!, I cannot think of a more fitting description to warn others about eye safety than to say, WARNING: My Hill, Miller, or whatever top end bow it was, blew up.  It can happen to the very best, it can happen without any warning, it can catch you completely off guard, and it will stun the devil out of you.  That stupid little sliver of glass stuck in me, that I cannot dig out, does not feel too good, and odds are pretty good, that when I was peppered with those slivers, I probably would have caught one in the eye had I not been wearing my shooting glasses.

So take it from this thread that, top dollar, top bowyers, top bows, and top skills, will not shield you from losing an eye when shooting bows.  But, odds are that shooting glasses will.

Best   :)

Thanks for the affirmation. I just excruciatingly re-read the entire thread and agree: there's nothing here that leads to some of the comments that are injected. Hey, some people have their own agenda and will invariably try to color topics to fit their preconceptions. Hijackers lurk in every forum, and TG is no exception.

I'm thrilled that you too survived with your eyes intact. I do believe that wearing safety glasses should be beaten into every archer's head. It isn't. Even with the high profile injuries we all know about, most shooters will cling to their habits, or forget this advice. May luck be with them. After my own experience, I've begun even un-stringing bows only when I have glasses on. As you wrote, it stunned the devil out of me. What a shock, and what astounding luck. I'm delighted this thread has helped a few TGers.

What's with the drama lately, guys?  I feel like I'm watching some spoiled housewives on tv.

It's July...the month named after the Roman general Julius Caesar...known for his war skills and willingness to do battle.

QuoteOriginally posted by pcg:
Thanks for the affirmation. I just excruciatingly re-read the entire thread and agree: there's nothing here that leads to some of the comments that are injected. Hey, some people have their own agenda and will invariably try to color topics to fit their preconceptions. Hijackers lurk in every forum, and TG is no exception.

I'm thrilled that you too survived with your eyes intact. I do believe that wearing safety glasses should be beaten into every archer's head. It isn't. Even with the high profile injuries we all know about, most shooters will cling to their habits, or forget this advice. May luck be with them. After my own experience, I've begun even un-stringing bows only when I have glasses on. As you wrote, it stunned the devil out of me. What a shock, and what astounding luck. I'm delighted this thread has helped a few TGers.

That is easy to say now when people have gone back and edited the words they originally said that created the defense of Mr Miller.

QuoteOriginally posted by gonefishing600:
Another thing that can cause a delamination is a dry fire do to nock failer. Your shooting really good one day, groups are really tight, and bam you hear an arrows slap. You pull your arrows and the next round, you have a dry fire.

It's happend to me several time. Now, every time I hear an arrow slap, I inspect my nocks and have one two occations found half of the nock chipped off.

I guess you could call it half a robin hood.

Something to think about.

Please tell me it didn't happen to the bow I bought off of you......

Hunting season needs to hurry and get here...RC

QuoteOriginally posted by RC:
Hunting season needs to hurry and get here...RC

I agree!!!

I think this horse has been beaten to death. The horse is dead
It is what it is.

QuoteOriginally posted by jeffg:
I think this horse to death. The horse is dead
It is what it is.

I agree, please let this die!

nuff said~!~!

:eek:    :eek:    :eek:    :eek:    :eek:    :eek:  MAN O MAN just read the whole thread, don't know what all has been edited but accidents can and do happen. Sometimes my fault, sometimes yours, I think of yall as part of my family. Wife goes to facebook I come here, everyone has taught me so much wish I'd had computer access years ago. I post sometimes but read all the time, love the classifieds and hope to be able to share a hunt with yall one day. Maybe we could just forgive and forget this once and keep the fire burning. Thanks TRADGANG !!!!!!!!

I had a metal handled Bear takedown blowup once, right in the area of where the top limb bracket came, the riser blew into popcorn sized pieces.  I had two black eyes, a soar ear and a lump on the back of my head.  The limb stayed on the string and I do not know what chunk hit me where, it all happened too fast. I also had a Bear takedown blow a limb off of its wedge, that one bounced all around my windowed front portage and hit everything except glass.  I got a signed set of limbs to replace the second one, but why the metal riser came to pieces is a mystery.  I have heard of one Hill longbow coming apart on a hot day, the top limb had been in the sun for quite a while in a pick-up with the windows open, then when the bow got drawn the limb that was in the sun split up.

This just like life. You can have numerous that a boys and you have maybe one of s--t and all of the ata boys are gone.

Update on my broken Howard Hill Cheetah longbow:

Craig can fix the bow, and to make things even better, he gave me additional options on a new bow.  Cannot say enough good about Howard Hill Archery.  I've had great experiences in ordering bows, have had great experiences with the final product, and now after having one break, I've had great experiences with their customer service.  Craig, his wife Evie, and his son Jason, have consistently been tops in all the above aspects of sales and service.

For those interested in a Cheetah with the Juniper lams, don't let my bow failure discourage you from that choice.  Craig's son Jason can hunt with any bow he chooses, and he loves the Cheetah.  He's carried a Cheetah across the globe, to include hunting Africa, and he has one Cheetah that's been shot for near 20 years without a hitch.  Any wood can fail, including bamboo, so my breakage was an exception and not the rule.

Best  :)

Whereas Dave is not even interested in looking at my OT. Different attitudes... I agree that HH is exceptionally service oriented.

QuoteOriginally posted by pcg:
Whereas Dave is not even interested in looking at my OT. Different attitudes... I agree that HH is exceptionally service oriented.

:deadhorse:   Get over it.  I've got a set of golf clubs I'll trade you for your other Miller if you no longer feel comfortable shooting it?

QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Mongelli:
   

quote:

---

Originally posted by pcg:
Whereas Dave is not even interested in looking at my OT. Different attitudes... I agree that HH is exceptionally service oriented.

:laughing:  

J/k.  Not funny.