I decided to do some testing to see how the bows i have stack up again one another in the speed category. I would not still own the bows if i didnt think they were excellent shooting bows! So that is a given and I just wanted to know how they compare.
I have been requested to do this by many people and i finally got around to it.
I am NOT a professional, i did not have access to a hooter shooter so this is a finger release number - lower than what you could get with machine.
I do not want to offend any Bowyer - so please take this for what it is worth. Just a trad hunter with too much time on his hands and too many toys to play with!!!! But it was fun....
Notes:
All have been made quiet and have different silencers on the string - that was a requirement to be in my stable and that may have hurt some in speed (not sure but wanted to acknowledge)
A used a procompetition electronics chron with the light rails for perfect lighting indoors.
I made sure i used a true 9 gpp arrow for each bow weight (all my bow are close 45-51# but i made sure each arrow was within 2 grns of the 9 gpp criteria for the specific bow weight.
I set every bow to exactly 30" draw with the clickers i have installed on all my bows.
I did 3 shots and took the average but most were the same every shot (interesting to me - but made me feel good on consistancy))
I shoot 3 under with a american leathers glove.
I tested 10 different bows and i could not believe how close the results.
Last NOTE - these are MY bows - not bows sent by Bowyer to show off so they are NOT their fastest bows. In fact couple of them said my choice of woods (ebony) really slows the limbs down - but i like ebony.....
NOW FOR THE RESULTS:
#1 Centaur Dark Matter ---- 200 fps
#2 Habu Long Bow ----- 196 fps
#3 TIE Habu Recurve ------- 195 fps
Big Foot Sasquatch ---- 195 fps
#4 Eagle Wing Talon (1) ---- 194 fps
#5 Hill Country Bobcat ----- 190 fps
#6 Toelke Lynx ----- 188 fps
#7 TIE Eagle Wing Talon (2) ---- 186 fps
Schafer Silvertip LB ---- 186 fps
#8 Schafer Silvertip RC ---- 183 fps
I was really surprised that 5 bows were between 194-200fps - very impressive!!!
let me know what questions you have
Mike
Mike, what were the actual arrow weights for each bow and did you compute the kenetic energy produce for each ?
Surprisingly the top 3 are longbows. I guessing the recurves do not have carbon in the limbs?
Actual arrow weights were 9gpp of the bow weight (+/-2grns on total weight). Example 50# bow = 450 gr arrow (448-452).
No carbon in Sasquatch or Tip, but there is carbon in Habu RC.
Thanks for sharing,seems Centuars are usually the quickest bow in the different tests I have seen.
Interesting info! I personally know that my Centaur Dark Matter Triple Carbon flat smokes an arrow. Cannot wait to get my Sasquatch SS to compare the two!
Mike,
Is that Centaur a 60 or 62 inch? And you said that all of your bows are between 45-51#....that is at your 30" draw correct? Just want to make sure I have all the variables right in my head.
Thanks for taking the time to do this. I've enjoyed the thread on fast trad bows!! Which seems like an oxymoron to me anyway :-)
Take care,
Jason
Ah, the too much time on your hands syndrome.... :) I love it. Thanks for posting these.
The funny thing is since its rainy here today I was planning on going to my archery shop just to see the numbers on my straightlimbed bows, because I feel they are shooting faster than I would assume.
Thanks for sharing, bet it was fun to do.
Looking at the Sasquatch, 195 off fingers in a glass limb bow, pretty darn good.
I like your choice in chronographs. I have one made by the same company that I've had for many years and it's very accurate.
I'm also glad to hear that you used a clicker for consistency in draw length during your testing which is very important. Man, that 30" draw you have is a major help in shooting high speed arrows!
You mention that you have different types of string silencers installed on your bows. To be totally accurate for testing purposes, I would recommend not having any silencers installed on any of the bows used for testing to be fair. Different types of things on your string and where they're installed can make quite a difference in speed.
Yes all bow weights were at my 30" draw.
Centaur is 62"
Agree with silencers BUT my logic was if the bow is fast but still loud I won't hunt with it that way so I put on what I had to so the bow was quiet. That was my equalizer. Yes some bows would be faster but I set that criteria before testing them. Fair?? I thought so cause what is speed I can't use for hunting???
Thanks Mike for the effort and fun read.
Very interesting. The only surprise to me is the Habu. I honestly did not believe it to be that fast from the one I tested. /Very interesting that the longbow beat the recurve limb.
I expected the Dark Matter and the SS to b e tossups for first place. What I did not expect was for the Habu to be faster than the EagleWing.
However it is what it is and great test. All of them a bunch of really great bows.
God bless, Steve
Thanks for taking the time to do this. Curious how your toelke would have performed.
Brianlocal get out there and test your bows. Inquiring minds need to know. :)
You didn't include the Toelke Lynx?
Can the type of veneer on limb affect performance? I was told the veneers are too thin to make a difference. Interesting.
Thank you very much, I really appreciate your test. I wish we could have more of these without the usual negative commments.
I own 13 high performance recurves, but, my Sasquatch Hybird is the fastest of the bunch.
Thanks, again.
I really don't understand why Habu RC is slower than LB - Chris said 7 fps faster with recurve. ?????
Honestly I forgot about the lynx.....I will have to test that one today. Someone said they wanted to buy my lynx so I put it away - wow can't believe I did that!!
SS - I know Kirk makes a faster bow and he told me this one was not his fastest. But I just feel in love with ebony riser. I am still thinking about trading these limbs in for faster ones.....
Mike,was the strings the same material and strang count? Thanks for the time and effort.
Strings were the same on the Habu's, but not the rest of the bows. Some original from bowyer, some SBD, some A.S. - whatever it took to get the bow hunting quiet.
I know from talking to Steve and Kirk that they say veneers impact performance. Kirk's quote to me was "BW ebony veneers are like putting lead in your boots and then running a race". How much ????? I will have to let the experts comment on that.
Great info Mike!
I love to test my stuff as well. I agree that testing them "hunt ready" is a good idea.
I have one bow that I simply don't enjoy shooting with just one pair of whiskers on it. When I put a 2 small pairs of whisker on the string, it makes a world of difference (both in sound and vibration). It takes away 2-3 fps, but makes the bow much nicer to shoot.
just look at the two EagleWings. the fast one has myrtle veneers and the slower one has macassar veneers. both ground to .017 and that is the main difference in the two sets of limbs. BTW the stats you got on those bows are only a few fps difference in what Kirk tested them at so you have an excellent finger release.
I am still in shock that the Habu longbow is that fast. You even said that Chris said the recurve was faster. So , My take on this is that you have an exceptionally fast over norm longbow and perhaps a bit slower recurve. This is something that drives bowyers nuts but happens occasionally. Two identical built bows and one will just be quicker or slower than average.
In this case you got a goodie.
BTW you are not getting my fastest bows with the belly mount bows either. The three piece EW longbow , the Storm Eagle Static and the onepiece EW are all quicker on the average than the belly mount bows.
I am honestly surprised at the performance of the Hill, the Habu and the Eagle Wing belly mount bows. All of them obviously very well designed. Would be interested to see how the Black Widow stacks up to them. I expected all these bows to be in the higher 180s to lower 190s.
God bless, Steve
Trying to extrapolate these numbers at 30" draw to a 28" draw. Can't remember how much speed changes per inch draw above or below 28. Kinda remember it was 3-5 ft/sec but am probably wrong.
Steve - so your saying you are going to have to build me a faster one......you were very clear with me on the fact that these would be a little slower - but i really like your belly mount bows!!
Lone Hunter - if you go down in draw weight you will go down in bow weight and then to stay at 9 gpp you will go down in arrow weight. the speeds should be very close - just lose KE.
Mike: Thanks for letting all know that I told you that these are not my speed bows. Not slouches but definitely not my bows I would pick to win an all out contest. However I got some work to do to catch that Habu , since its a like kind of bow. I got to find at least 2 more fps somewhere. LOl
Gives me something to shoot at.
I really like the belly mount bows too and with the numbers that they all are getting they ought to be gobbling the Hills and Ews up. There is not really enough difference in them and the hot top mount bows to make a hill of beans difference in real life and the belly mount bows shoot awesome.
Right now I have the forms for my new belly mount static recurve built and will be getting a proto asap to have Bro. Kirk test. If these new limbs work out they will be setting new standards for belly mount recurves. "But this remains to be seen and that is the fun of all of this stuff.
So----- I build bows when people order them. Are you ordering a new bow ? I still have a piece of that koa.
God bless, Steve
i am on hold for new bows until after the hunting season!! Time to pick a bow or two and get serious.
Cant wait to see how the new limbs work out.....
added the Toelke Lynx info - 188 fps. Pretty impressive for straight limb LB.
just makes me want an eagle wing even more...lol
if I could just find out how to get that speed AND longevity out of my BBO's I could save some $$$..if I didn't account for 50 bow builds trying...lol.
for me they look like the total package.
Forward riser, longbow quiet, pretty, fast/efficient..gotta get one..lol
I like it. Working field tests are the best and real world. Thank you.
QuoteOriginally posted by pamike:
......Lone Hunter - if you go down in draw weight you will go down in bow weight and then to stay at 9 gpp you will go down in arrow weight. the speeds should be very close - just lose KE.
Not if he's asking about two different bows that are each the same draw weight but at different draw lengths. Then, it's not gonna be close at all.
Example:
Bow #1-Morrison Cheyenne 50#@28", 450gr. arrow.
Bow #2-Morrison Cheyenne 50#@30", 450gr. arrow.
I know that in wheelie bows it comes to about 10 fps for every inch of draw length lost or gained. It's not as much with trad bows though. I would say that it's about 5 fps variation for every inch of draw length difference with trad bows.
Why wouldn't bow 1 and bow 2 shoot the same speed??
Sound like you have a bunch of fine bows Mike! It does not surprise me at all that your habu with the longbow limbs is that fast. I've never put mine under a chrono, but it is quite fast. What surprises me most is that the recurve limbs are not even faster. I figured they would be a few FPS faster than the longbow limbs. As you know, I'm a pretty hardcore Habu bow fan, but I'd like to try some of those other bows as well.
Thanks for the interesting study! I'm with you on having the bows silenced.
I had all kinds of puffs on my recurve to get it quiet, but my longbow didn't need much.
You got some fast bows.
QuoteOriginally posted by ishoot4thrills:
QuoteOriginally posted by pamike:
......Lone Hunter - if you go down in draw weight you will go down in bow weight and then to stay at 9 gpp you will go down in arrow weight. the speeds should be very close - just lose KE.
Not if he's asking about two different bows that are each the same draw weight but at different draw lengths. Then, it's not gonna be close at all.
Example:
Bow #1-Morrison Cheyenne 50#@28", 450gr. arrow.
Bow #2-Morrison Cheyenne 50#@30", 450gr. arrow.
I know that in wheelie bows it comes to about 10 fps for every inch of draw length lost or gained. It's not as much with trad bows though. I would say that it's about 5 fps variation for every inch of draw length difference with trad bows. [/b]
Yes I remember it's about 5 fps average for every extra inch on trad bows. Shooting with fingers cost about 5fps and silencers about 3-5fps.
I shoot(Quote) :Example:
Bow #1-Morrison Cheyenne 50#@28", 450gr. arrow.
Bow #2-Morrison Cheyenne 50#@30", 450gr. arrow.
I know that in wheelie bows it comes to about 10 fps for every inch of draw length lost or gained. It's not as much with trad bows though. I would say that it's about 5 fps variation for every inch of draw length difference with trad bows.
Answer: Perhaps and perhaps not, A lot depends on the draw force curve of the two bows.
If the two poundages are exactly the same as in the scenario you gave the difference in speed will be minor. probably in the 2 to 3 fps difference. It all depends on the difference in the efficiency at 28 compared to the efficiency at 30 and that may not be a lot if the bow is highly efficient at 28 inches.
For instance I am seeing barely any difference in the speeds of Mikes 30 in bows at 50 lbs than the bows I build at 50 lbs that are 50 at 28 in.
Where the difference really seems to show up is when the bow is like 50 lb at 26 inches and not tailored to be efficient at 26 inches. A lot of this can be made up for by adjustment of the working limb of the bow so that the bow becomes more efficient at the 26 in draw. Built to be draw specific.
Not all however.
God bless, Steve
This test has me super stoked to get my hands on Lonewolf73's (Kim's), now my Vyperkahn Jet 65@29 later this week. I'm guessing the triple carbon LB limbs are gonna be smokers. Oooohh...
I almost got the jet version - very cool looking, but I keep going back to pretty woods. Enjoy the JET!!
Steve - that makes sense and what I was thinking.
Mike
Steve(Sixby),
Yes, I totally see and agree with what you're saying. Especially with a short bow where the bow begins to stack at the longer draw which will decrease performance.
But, generally speaking, the farther you draw the bow the more energy you store in it(up to a certain point), thus increasing arrow speed. I know that this is a blanket statement, but remember I'm talking about in general. This is why a lot of people with long draw lengths have more trouble finding wood arrows that are stiff enough for their setups when using the higher poundage bows as opposed to those with shorter draw lengths using the same draw weight.
So much hinges on how a bow is designed and how it is built. I made up my mind a long time ago to not follow or buy into what so many consider to be established concepts. Many of which hit the brakes of progress and limit forward movement.
God bless, Steve
I find it interesting that when comparing my glass model selway. Which is the same limb design as the dark matter I'm only drawing .5" longer than you and shooting a slightly heavier arrow around the same poundage and my glass limbed bow is only a few fps slower.... Makes you wonder really how much limb material matters over limb design... Makes one really consider that extra few hundred bucks..... Just something to ponder
Kirk and I have pondered the carbon vs glass thing many times. I basically decided to let the customer decide. Honestly at stickbow hunting ranges it makes some difference at extreme yardage or with heavy arrows but when you have a great limb design , it is marginal and I highly doubt makes enough difference to really matter. I have built and seen some really quick glass bows. When they reach a high enough efficiency level its hard to gain a lot with carbon. This is more true with the recurves than with the longbows because the recurves are light in stack and in weight to start with. I suspect (actually know)that the real speed in carbon is what amounts to a faster recovery time equating to lighter physical weight of the entire limb. This also eliminates some shock and gains some efficiency as the energy is more efficiently imparted to the arrow instead of lost in excess vibration.
I do see greater gains in the longbow designs with carbon than with my recurves.
God bless, Steve
I'm not a speed guy. I've got limbs with carbon in them and limbs without it. I mentioned on another post that I know that when carbon is properly utilized in a limb that there is an increase in speed, but honestly, I don't notice it all that much compared to a limb made of good bamboo. But what I do notice is the "deadness" in the hand. The feel is different upon release and it is pleasing to me. We all have what we like and do not like in a bow. For me aside from inaccuracy, it is hand shock. One of my weaknesses as a shooter is that hand shock distracts me and often causes a slight movement/reflex at release that affects my accuracy. I know its different for everyone but that is the effect for me. I LOVE a bow that is dead in the hand. Carbon seems to help with that. Speed is just icing on the cake. Please forgive my ignorance guys, as I am not a bowyer. These are just observations that I have made. Please feel free to correct me.
JOn: I agree with everything you said. That deadness is caused by the extremely quick recovery of carbon. It wants to return to its original structure instead of bouncing around and losing energy like glass does. To me that is actually more important than the increase in speed is. Just as you have stated.
God bless, steve
Thanks to all for a very interesting thread, I have learned a lot.
Steve,
Thanks for all the "bowyer" input, keep it up. Really enjoy reading yours and Kirks posts.
Couple questions on Tip RC. If people think numbers are slow my thought would be that my RC is 56". Most likely not Dave's Perf size.
Thanks Mike for your report!
You guys are welcome - this was fun!!!
Mike, what was the length of the lynx? Did you find the shorter bows to be faster than the longer?
Also the lynx is a take down R/D bow. You stated it was a straight limbed longbow. I'd be happy with any of your bows tested. All very fast! Thanks for the research!
Interesting results. Given that there's only a few fps difference between several of the fastest bows, it's very possible that string type -- material, strand count, etc. -- is what separated them.
Can they go faster???? :deadhorse:
Curious to see what the old widows or bears would measure??
Lynx is 64"
Bow length was not a big factor since all the high speed bows were 62 or 64"
Yes - I am sure if I took the 4 wool silencers off the Habu's they would have broke the 200 barrier. Centaur only had one set of cat whiskers. Habu was not quiet with cat whiskers so had to add more. Again - key is the equalizer was must be quiet!
Mike
Hey Mike did you check the weight of each bow this may be the prob with the two habu bows Thnaks Shane
I did not put them on my bow scale - I checked Chris's before and they were right on. I will check that just to be sure.
One thing Mike,. If you did not actually take the poundage there is the possibility of bowyer error. Including Mine. Then plus of minus two gr. could be 4 gr. which can be a couple fps. So when you have that many bows so close you could find under even your quietness parameters , which I believe to be a great idea, You could have the fastest being the slowest and the slowest being the fastest when human error. Bowyer and your fingers error include, is removed. Of course an instrument which would take each bow to the same decibel level would have to be employed but that is entirely within the rhelm of possibility.
Just some of my thoughts on this entire thing.
Thanks though for the results. I did kind of expect that instead of just speed that you would comment on the entire bow of each of those. That would be very interesting especially now that you have established such a parity in speed.
That is asking a lot though and I understand the time that would be involved.
God bless you and have a great day, Steve
Steve - I can do that. Maybe have to do a couple at a time or keep it pretty high level.
Guys. Did a chrono shoot today with my two bows. a Toelke Super Static recurve 64" 50@28 and a Toelke Super D (Hill Style bow) 66" 54@28. Arrows were shot with good back tension at release.
(http://i1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii498/tzolkosky/img013_zpsd89894d6.jpg)
Thanks for adding tzolk