After about 15 years away from the sport, I managed to get back into trad archery for $110.00. I did lots of research, lots of bargain hunting, and used a little bit of luck.
A few months back, I stumbled across a couple of old recurves at the flea market and not knowing much anymore I just kept looking for several weeks. Well one Sunday morning, my father (he never gave up archery) decided to join my son and I at the flea market. The bows were still there and my dad knew what they were. So after I did my magic and haggling, I scored a very nice conditon Browning Wasp for $40!
This was the first step. I found the proper fast flight string on a popular auction site for $11 shipped. Now I had a shootable bow, but nothing to shoot!
Lots of searching later, I managed to find a brand new company offering carbon arrows for a reasonable price per dozen. I won't name them here because they aren't an advertiser here, but if you email me I will let you know.
So, for $62.00 shipped I got a dozen 400 carbon arrows, cut to length, fletched and ready to shoot! I haven't been able to touch this price for a dozen arrows from anywhere, not even the Easton variety they make for pro shops to sell cheaply.
Now, that's a good buy for me! I've been working on my form, and drawing the bow daily trying to build my muscles back up before I ever decide to launch an arrow down range. Feeling good and getting comfortable with this poundage.
Here is my equipment...
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/fast14riot/2013-06-24184502_zps2fd3933b.jpg)
This shot shows the chatoyance in the wood, it is very active and extremely handsome looking I think. I still need a rest installed, but haven't decided if I want to use a flipper or pad.
(http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f295/fast14riot/2013-06-24184825_zps65894ecb.jpg)
Thanx for checking this out and for being such a welcoming and helpful bunch!
Cheers!
Nice rosewood (I think) on that bow!
:archer2:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Enjoy!
Shoot straight, Shinken
:archer2:
Nice bargain hunting! I'm not sure about the fast flight string though. I don't know about the Browning personally, but generally older bows should have a dacron string. That's a great looking bow - I'd hate to see the string cause any problems.
Do NOT use a fast flight string on that bow unless the loops are padded as you will risk splitting the limb tips. Most use B-50 strings on the classic bows or padded loop ff strings.
That's a nice older bow. Personally, I wouldn't use a fastflight string on a bow unless it was specifically ok'd by the bowyer.
However, lots of folks use high performance strings on older bows with no problems.
Guy
Jeez, we must have all been typing at the same time.
Guy
Only a properly built padded loop string! Otherwise use Dacron.
Looks sharp brother. Make sure it's got reinforced tips to handle that string
Thanx for the warning about the string, but I have always used fast flight strings on my recurves when I shot in the past and never had any issues, though I will not brush off the information.
Fwiw, the bow does have two layers of glass for the nock tipping, and the string is served up to the split and around the loop. Not sure if this is "padded" or not.
Thanx!
QuoteOriginally posted by gunfixrjoe:
Looks sharp brother. Make sure it's got reinforced tips to handle that string
Glad to see ya here Joe! Thanx!
Fast Flight for Trad Bows is a relatively new material.
I would agree with the advice to "get a dacron string".... You are risking damage to a beautiful old classic recurve.
get a hoyt pro hunter rest on there for just a couple bucks...worth it's weight in gold! Very easy to tune, great for hunting, and will fit on that bow nicely.
the wasp is a good bow, my daughter shoots one and so does her son. as mentioned already, older bows are best strung only with dacron strings. enjoy!
Nice wood on the bow. I don't recommend fast flight though and your .400 arrows may prove to be stiff although you didn't mention any weight on the bow. But give them a try and it may work out.
My first "real" bow was a Wasp. Shooting a '66 Kodiak Mag now. Like those old classics.
I noticed the arrows may have plastic vanes.You may want to try feathers if shooting off the shelf.
QuoteOriginally posted by reddogge:
Nice wood on the bow. I don't recommend fast flight though and your .400 arrows may prove to be stiff although you didn't mention any weight on the bow. But give them a try and it may work out.
The bow is 50# @28" and nice and short for hunting with only a mere 56" amo. I draw 29" but ordered my arrows cut to 31" to be on the safe side.
Guys, I'm still curious of the reason for damage from a fast flight string. I have always shot with a FF string back when I was shooting all the time. I never owned a new bow, always old ones.
Cheers!
QuoteOriginally posted by oldway:
I noticed the arrows may have plastic vanes.You may want to try feathers if shooting off the shelf.
Yeah, I do have a Bear Weather rest I need to install, but I haven't decided if I want to use that particular one or not.
If your string loops are served, you probably have a continuous loop, as opposed to a Flemish twist string. The serving should provide sufficient mass/diameter to protect the limb tips.
The main issue with fast flite type strings on older bows is that the narrower diameter, physically harder material (i.e., harder than dacron) tends to saw off plain tips. Padding the string loops and/limb tip overlays help reduce that tendency. Aside from this, I think that the low stretch strings are actually easier on bows because they dampen limb vibration more quickly. Sometimes, older bows delaminate beginning at the limb tips. Some feel this is caused by the non-stretch strings stopping the limbs too fast. Difficult to say. Could be the bow is just old and the delamination would have occurred regardless of the string used. It certainly happens with dacron strings as well.
All that being said, I use padded loop D-97 Flemish strings on my older bows. Makes them quieter, gentler in the hand and adds a few fps.
As others have noted, if you want to shoot off the shelf, will likely need to replace the vanes with feathers. .400 is on the stiff side for a 50# bow. May need to add a bit of point weight, brass insert in addition to the target point or broadhead, to get them to fly correctly. Good luck.
Thank you for the informative post! I can easily serve the loops with dacron if needed to give more diameter, I will keep an eye on it. Like I mentioned, the nock tips have two layers of glass for overlays, so it should be fine I think.
The reason I always shot FF strings was the lack of break in and creep. There is ZERO speed difference between FF, dacron and other materials, so no performance gain.
I do have a flipper rest to put on the bow, just not sure if its the best one. I took the old rug off because it was ratty.
I realize 400 arrows might be a bit stiff, but I did get them longer than needed to try and counter act it a bit. We'll see once I start tuning.
Thanx for th kind words everyone!
Cheers!
grats on a fine setup at an amazing price point.
Xander, don't want to labor the point, but there definitely is a speed/performance difference between FF/low stretch strings and dacron. A number of studies published in trad archery mags found speed differences of 5-10 fps and more with ultra skinny strings. That equates to 2-5# of draw weight. A good number of trad gangers have also conducted their own experiments and reported the results here. A search should turn up a number of threads.
Regsrdless, good find. Should serve you well.
Yeah, gotta go with Orion. FF will definately be slightly faster.
If you have glass overlay on the tips you should be fine. I think the only problems are with bows having no overlays, or using that resin impregnated paper that is not very sturdy.
I've heard alkot of pople say not to use FF on an older bow, but very few people with an actual bad experience .... just my .02
With that said I haven;t had the balls to put a FF string on any of my older glass bows yet.
Keep us posted on your progress
Well, seems as if I have made the natives restless by puttng a FF string on an old bow! So, if anyone wants to trade a brand new, un nocked fast flight string for a 56"amo bow for what I am being told to use then shoot me a message, I'll get you my address.
I have used only FF strings for the years I did shoot, never once an issue, that's even on bows with no tip overlays, just bare glass.
If a properly broken-in and set flemish string (dacron) is supposed to have no creep or stretch (just like a FF or skinny string), then where does the performance gain come from? I want numbers, not backyard tests. From a shooting machine taking all variables out. Even strings weighing 30gr less won't give you 5-10fps difference.
Now the tip split issue was one I was unaware of even when shooting before, some have told me it actually happened to them, but most seem to be just repeating what they were told without ever dealing with the issue. (Much like LittleBen mentions...) That is somthing I will take into consideration.
I apologize if this sounds like I'm being obstainant or hard headed, I'm not meaning it that way at all, but I am a metrologist by training and need actual measured numbers removing all variables in the test.
Cheers!
I too would be interested to see some actual chrono niumbers.
but regarding your FF string Zander ... I say if you're comfortable just stick with it man.
The only test I have seen using a shooting machine, same arrows, same length strings, same draw weight, the only change was the string material, then strand count. The only performance difference was adding string silencers which slowed the speed down 2-3fps. ZERO speed difference. Even strings weighing 20-30gr less shot the same speed.
Cheers!
Xander, where did you get the idea that a broken in dacron string has no creep or stretch? It definitely has the latter, more stretch than the low stretch fast flite strings. On a hot, muggy day, it will creep a lot. It also stretches more during the shot. That's why it's slower than fast flite type strings, and the fact that it weighs more.
I'm not trying to persuade you one way or another. Believe what you want to believe. I shoot both, and I shoot fast flite on older bows. Never have had a problem.
If you want proof of fast flite type strings greater performance, you'll have to do your own research. Like I said, several studies were published in Trad Bowhunter over the years. I remember the gist of the results, but can't remember which issues. Also, Rick Barbree on the other trad site, has conducted some very good research on various string materials and string sizes. Might search that site.
BTW, I'd be interested in reading about the research you cite. Where can I find it?
This is the information posted about comparing strings as done by Ken Beck and originally posted Feb, 2010.
"TESTING STRINGS In response to a lot of interest in various string materials and "skinny" strings, we have performance tested several materials in both conventional and "skinny" versions to compare to our standard 14 strand DynaFLIGHT 97. Ray Caliendo (our milling machine guru and longtime string maker and expert) made the strings used for testing. The "skinny" strings had about half the strands but were padded in the loops to protect from what I call the "piano wire effect" that can split the limb tips. The center servings were also padded to get the desired arrow nock fit. For our purposes here, no silencers when installed.
Here is our testing protocol: For the recurve test, we selected a 60" PSA X. We chose to do the tests at a 30" draw (rather than 28") to maximize any benefit gained. The bow was braced at 8 1/ 4" and weighed on our electronic digital scale (0.1 increments) and it weighed in at 57.5#. Then we built an arrow that weighed exactly 517.5 grains (9 x 57.5#). (A higher brace would give a slightly higher draw weight and thus require a heavier arrow.) The shooting was done with our shooting machine. For each test, the bow was drawn with the winch to exactly 30" and the mechanical release was then activated. Each test requires only two or three shots through the chronograph. The readout will never vary more than one foot per second. If the first and second shots read the same (which is usually the case), we record this fps number. If not, we shoot a third arrow and record the two-out-of-three number. Since our chronograph does not measure in tenths of fps, our method is only accurate to within plus or minus 1/ 2 fps. A different chronograph might read faster or slower, but our testing protocol would produce the same consistency.
PSA X 60" RECURVE 57.5# @ 30" 517.5 grain arrow
DynaFLIGHT 97 14 strand 196 fps
Ultra Cam 16 strand 195 fps
Ultra Cam 8 strand 195 fps
Excellerent 12 strand 195 fps
Excellerent 8 strand 195 fps
Astro Flight 20 strand 195 fps
Astro Flight 10 strand 195 fps
Trophy 20 strand 196 fps
Trophy 12 strand 196 fps
D 10 18 strand 197 fps
D 10 12 strand 196 fps
We then tested a 60" (so we could use the same strings) PL X longbow of exactly the same draw weight at 30" with basically the same results, only 2 to 3 fps slower than the recurve. A 64" longbow would have been more suitable for a 30" draw and would have reduced the difference between the longbow and the recurve. We also compared speeds with and without the typical four Spider string silencers with a difference of 2-3 fps (2 fps on the DF 97}.
As you can see, it's a washout. I was not surprised because I had tested an endless "skinny" string some time ago with the same result. Even though these 60" "skinny" strings (with padded loops and center serving) weigh 20 to 30 grains less (depending on which strand material), fewer strands allow more stretch or elasticity and we thus loose what we hoped to gain. The conventional D 10 string was 1 fps faster for both the recurve and longbow.
Well, there may be those who question these numbers and feel that the "Old Man" has gone over-the-hill and senility has set in. I would simply suggest "Grumpy" old man. So here's the deal: Since I'm "from Missouri", bring your Black Widow bow to Missouri with your properly padded "skinny" string and "show me". Using the scientific testing method described above (you may determine the brace height), if you can achieve an additional 3 fps over a standard 14 strand DynaFLIGHT 97 string, we will build you a new Black Widow bow of your choice. BUT.... if you can not achieve an additional 3 fps, you must leave your Black Widow bow with us, OR.... pay for a new Black Widow bow that we will build for you. SUCH A DEAL! If there is a better mouse trap, we want to know about it! (This offer will expire 12-31-2010.)
I have also resurrected a post from the past entitled "TESTING & COMPARING BOW PERFORMANCE" for you to review.
Let me summerize: PHYSICS is PHYSICS is PHYSICS.... and you can't get around it.
Ken Beck "
Hope this helps.
I wouldn't use fast flight on that old bow, why risk it? They weren't designed for it.
Also, I would put a little more feather on my arrows if I were you.
Fwiw, I appreciate the infomation sharing and real world experiances. Y'all are a good bunch of fellas and I do value the input I receive on here.
Btw, my offer for trading the FF string is not in jest, I will gladly trade it to someone for an appropriate string.
Re: arrows, I have yet to shoot them and can't say one way or the other about them yet. I may very well refletch them if need be, my brother does have a jig for it.
Cheers!
Xander: The BW study provides good info. What they found is that there's little difference between skinny and not so skinny HMPE (high modulus polyethylene) strings, generically referred to as fast flite type material. I agree.
However, they did not compare HMPE strings to dacron. Because the HMPE strings creep and stretch less than dacron, they extract more of the bow's energy, yielding more speed/performance. That comes at a potential cost, as I pointed out earlier.
Most folks who have responded recommend against using the HMPE strings on older bows. Even the string manufacturers like Brownell and BCY offer a caveat about using it on older bows. As I said before, I use it on some of my older bows. And, you've indicated that you have as well. It's a personal decision. I entered this discussion to try to point out some of the differences between the materials, not to persuade anyone to use one or the other. Hope I didn't offend.
Personally, and completely biased, I am partial to a bow made for Fast Flight strings, AND shooting feathers off of the shelf. Again, completely biased! I love :-)
I have no idea why there is "I love :-)" on my last post.....
:thumbsup: congrats on the rewards of your bargin hunting!!!
Orion, yes I do agree that the study was direct comparisons of modern material strings, but it also disproves what you stated "the fact that it's [dacron string] heavier" as a componant of the performance difference between FF an dacron string.
Furthermore, I believe a direct correlation can be made between the skinny FF strings and dacron strings, due to increased stretch of low strand count FF strings being close to a much more substantial dacron strings stretch.
I haven't gathered any data on this yet, or found exact info, but I may eventually build a test rig just fo the sake of finding the information.
Cheers!
QuoteOriginally posted by gunfixrjoe:
I have no idea why there is "I love to shoot :-)" on my last post.....
There, I fixed it for ya Joe [thumbsup]
QuoteOriginally posted by Xander:
Orion, yes I do agree that the study was direct comparisons of modern material strings, but it also disproves what you stated "the fact that it's [dacron string] heavier" as a componant of the performance difference between FF an dacron string.
Furthermore, I believe a direct correlation can be made between the skinny FF strings and dacron strings, due to increased stretch of low strand count FF strings being close to a much more substantial dacron strings stretch.
I haven't gathered any data on this yet, or found exact info, but I may eventually build a test rig just fo the sake of finding the information.
Cheers!
Everything else being the same, the lighter string will be faster. The reason why skinny string did not outperform the normal ones in that test was because skinny strings stretches more. A stretchy string reduces stored energy so any gains in reduced mass was cancelled out. Now comparing stiffer FF string to dacron string, the FF will be faster.
QuoteOriginally posted by Nativestranger:
QuoteOriginally posted by Xander:
Orion, yes I do agree that the study was direct comparisons of modern material strings, but it also disproves what you stated "the fact that it's [dacron string] heavier" as a componant of the performance difference between FF an dacron string.
Furthermore, I believe a direct correlation can be made between the skinny FF strings and dacron strings, due to increased stretch of low strand count FF strings being close to a much more substantial dacron strings stretch.
I haven't gathered any data on this yet, or found exact info, but I may eventually build a test rig just fo the sake of finding the information.
Cheers!
Everything else being the same, the lighter string will be faster. The reason why skinny string did not outperform the normal ones in that test was because skinny strings stretches more. A stretchy string reduces stored energy so any gains in reduced mass was cancelled out. Now comparing stiffer FF string to dacron string, the FF will be faster. [/b]
Cool, now let's find a ultra lightweight zero stretch material for bow strings and become rich and famous, lol!
I do need to do a little more reading into the applied physics of the processes involved, but I am enjoying this conversation! Whether the weight of the string is as much of a componant as it is commonly believed is mainly what I am interested in.
So, now, who are the trusted string makers 'round here?
Cheers!
QuoteOriginally posted by Xander:
There is ZERO speed difference between FF, dacron and other materials, so no performance gain.
You'll note that the test you quoted does not include dacron. That's why everyone got excited, it's because the high performance materials definately do have higher performance than dacron.
Guy
It's your bow, set it up the way you want. If it comes apart, at least you're not into it lots of money. Personally, I would refletch the arrows and shoot off the shelf. Have fun setting it up and don't let a few FPS worry you.
A friend brought two bows to my shop, both had split at the nock down the limb, I suspected fast flight string damage but as they had no strings on them I couldn't prove it.
I put overlays on one and fixed the damage but told my friend that it was strictly a wall hanger from now on. He died a while back, I suspect some inspecting relative is shooting that bow now.
Xander, the weight of dacron is a component of its reduced performance vis a vis HMPE strings. Granted, not a big one, but a component. (Stretch is the bigger dacron culprit.) Keep in mind that the difference in weight between the BW tested strings was small because all of the strings tended to be skinny/light vis-a-vis dacron. They're close in weight to each other, but weigh quite a bit less than dacron. To build a dacron string of the same strength requires a thicker and thus substantially heavier string.
might want some feathers to replace those vanes too.
So if you use a dacron string you will never have a split nock. Right? Mike
Never say never