I'm looking to hear all of your opinions and also experiences with the antler restriction program in place in the Catskills region of NY.
I personally was happy to see it in place, and was even more excited when they expanded it last year or the year before to include some of zone 4.
I haven't yet seen a difference in the bucks i'm seeing, we tend to see mainly does on the land I hunt and maybe once a year a mature buck (usually 8 pointers)
For those not familiar the antler restriction requires 3 points, at least 1" long on one side for a legal buck.
IVe been hunting Delaware Co for close to 35 years now. Up until about 10 or 15 years ago, You'd be lucky to see a buck. I counted 85 deer one day while driving from Andes to Margretteville, and only 1 that I saw was a buck. If you got a 2 1/2 year old buck, he was old!! The last few years I've been seeing more and more bucks. And of them, more and more racked bucks. Not sure why, maybe guys have been letting them pass during gun season, and Spotlighting may be down. I think that this has come at a perfect time. Its going to take a few years before you really notice the difference.
Zones in Ulster Co have been doing it for a few years now, and you can really see the difference. Just my observations.
Wish we had a state wide restriction on antler size. Might hurt for a few years but will make the quality of the hunt so much better after that. Tired of seeing spikes and forkies!
I wouldn't mind seeing a state wide restriction. Exempt from the restriction would be those under 18 yrs. and those over 65 yrs. I believe, at least this applies in my area, the state needs to curtail the number of Doe tags issued. Back in the 1990's there were too many deer in the finger lakes region. Now the numbers are way down generally. Still a lot of deer near the cities, but that won't change as long as there's tree hugger's inhabitating them.
State wide....I hope not.........After 41 years I may get a chance and then I can't shoot because the deer is a spike or a fork, that would be very bad for my morale. I will say, as much as I'm opposed to AR state wide, it is the only way it will be 100% successful. There, I said it, just my $.02!!
I have seen the benefit of AR in the Mid Hudson areas and have been hearing of better deer seen in some of the Catskills. I am all for it as long as they implement things to improve the overall quality of the herd also.
Pa put a antler restriction into affect many years ago but juniors are still allowed to shoot them. I am strongly opposed to this I watch a small buck which is a trophy to me go buy down to a junior and he shoots it so he got the enjoyment but I am not allowed. I think if you are going to have restrictions they should be for everyone. As far as it improving the bucks it has some on private ground but on public not so much just a little. I would like to go back to the old ways I pay my money I should be able to make the choice I am not a trophy hunter any deer with my bow is a trophy to me I would rather shoot a spike every year rather then a 18 inch buck once every 10 to 15 years. I have not seen any monster bucks yet and it is not for lack of trying I spent 35 or more days hunting deer last year and got a doe and saw 2 six points 3 four points and 2 spikes and did not count the does about 15 or so. I do not think that is good for that many days hunting. Widow
NY could improve the quality of bucks by changing the limit to one buck . With that being said we can choose what buck we harvest. I choose to take eight point or better some don't.
I want to shoot what I choose and so should everyone. I don't feel it's up to the state or anyone else to tell another hunter what to take. Some years I want to hold out for a bigger buck but other times I take what the Lord gives me at that point in time. I'm fed up with all the rules all I want to do is hunt, I have my own land pay taxes on it so I want to take what I want.
I'm glad I'm not alone......... :notworthy: :notworthy: Thanks, Wapiti and Stone!
I live and hunt in the pilot AR area and can understand folks not liking being told what they can take but I have seen some benefits to it.A lot of guys who were opposed to it in the beginning,for the same reasons some of you guys are, have changed their opinion of it now that they're taking better bucks.I was in in favor of it from the start and have taken my 2 best bucks ever since AR's began and,since AR's are a form of QDM,it insures more mature bucks are doing some of the breeding which is good for the herd.And it might just be me,but I swear I just see more bucks in general now.
Im happy with meat in the freezer more than antlers on the wall these day. A doe makes my my season. Still love big racks but am happy without.
Sorry I don't need the state to tell me what to shoot . If you want to start improving the herd limit it to 1 buck per year.
Big bucks live wherever small bucks live. Ill bet that there is at least one 120" buck living within a mile or two of most every NY resident, at the most 10 miles. If you gotta have one put in more time and do more hunting homework, you'll get on them.
The state is listening to what their resident hunters want. They haven't started a statewide restr. because most hunters don't want one. I understand that everyone should be able to harvest what THEY choose. On the other hand I would like to be able to hunt bucks with something besides peach fuzz. The only way to promote that is to let them grow and some will spread their genes. I'm proud of every deer I harvest, and a trophy is in no way determined by rack size. It sure even makes it just that much more special when you do kill one with a decent rack of 6 or 8 or 10 pts. I'd just like to be able to do that a little more often. But here again, what I want or would like to see, is only relevant to the deer situation where I live and hunt.
QuoteOriginally posted by Izzy:
Big bucks live wherever small bucks live. Ill bet that there is at least one 120" buck living within a mile or two of most every NY resident, at the most 10 miles. If you gotta have one put in more time and do more hunting homework, you'll get on them.
Exactly right Izzy, but the problem lies in the fact that most people would rather it be easier to shoot a large buck rather than put in time that way they can pound their chest more often at everyone's expense. I think too much of the hunting shows on tv have polluted the sport of hunting. Some years a person is fortunate to get one good shot at a deer why should they be deprived of a chance to fill the freezer? Some will say well just shoot a doe but what if your only chance is at a small buck. This whole discussion ticks me off because how are the bucks better managed for genetics if you can shoot a 1.5 year old buck that my be an 8 point yet you pass on a spike? if it were done properly it would be age not points. I say that a person should manage their own land for what they want or manage public land, but stay out of the private land owners business.
i take whatever i have a tag for and in my area i am FORTUNATE to SEE a buck most of the season....
In a lot of missouri they have to have at least 4 pts on one side. We have had this law for 8 years or so and I can say with 100% that it has helped. We have larger bucks for sure. Kids in the youth season still can shoot what they want which I agree with. If you want to shoot a deer there are more does anyway. I realize people don't like to be told what they can and can't shoot But a lot of laws are put in effect to help.
But from the way you guys are talking you don't see a lot of deer so I guess I could see the point of that. If you on ly have one shot at a deer all year and can't shoot it.
I agree with Izzy and I have pics to prove it.
What I don't understand is if all these people are for antler restrictions why do we have to have a law for it? They should just pick and choose and you will have the same thing but won't be limiting that guy who only saw a spike and needed the meat for his table.
We don't like people telling us what kinda car we have to drive or what kinda food we have to eat so we shouldn't be told what we can or can't shoot. JMO
I also agree with stone knife people want things handed to them instead of working hard and putting the time in. People are just getting more and more lazy.
Here in New Jersey we have some zones with AR, and I have seen improvement in the deer. That being said, I agree with Stone Knife and Izzy, it should be your choice what you shoot..As Izzy said I've seen 120/130 class bucks on public land without AR, if you want big bucks, hunt hard you'll find them
There may be a nice buck near every New Yorker but that don't mean you will have a chance to hunt him or even access to the property around him. :readit: It should be up to the hunter to make the choice to shoot or pass, not some guy behind a desk in Albany!
"3 points, at least 1" long on one side for a legal buck."
Don't tell me that qualifies for a trophy buck, basically all this law does is outlaw shooting spikes and little forkhorns. Spikes are the dumbest animal in the woods and all this law does is give them a chance to learn some basic survival skills.
I think it is a good idea because after the first year all those spikes will be able to be shot the next year since they all will be six pointers at least.
I can't tell you how many times spikes have busted me in the tree and just stand there looking at me or even walking around the tree and catching my scent and not doing a thing but lift their heads. I've never shot a spike and don't plan to where I hunt but we have plenty of does we are allowed to shoot.
But I do understand where some hunters want to shoot anything since they don't have the time to hunt more than a few times. I see this on long island where during the rut the woods are packed with hunters that will shoot anything since they will be only hunting for a week or two.
I remember one year where this compund hunter by me shot this beautiful 10 pointer that was about a 135 - 140 and then the next saturday he shot this little dink spike.
I do think it should only be for the southern zones though where the population can support it.
Some years I have little time to scout or hunt. Those are the years when I'll shoot the first buck I see, because it may very well be the only chance I'll get. So I totally understand anyone wanting to do the same. Oyher years I have a lot of time to scout and hunt. Those are the years I try to search out the big boys. The problem is there really aren't any big boys were I hunt. True, there might be one or two around, and truth be told, I put a tag on one about once every 10 yrs. I'd just like to see my herd quality go up and the percentages go up a little for success. There are nutritional requirement to consider ect. There is habitate improvement ect. There are other factors at play were heard quality is concerned. New york has never been known as a big buck state in compare to say Iowa or some of the other mid western states. It never will be either. That isn't important to most of us bow and gun hunters here in NY, myself included. I like tough hunting, and I'll match my deer knowledge and success rates with the best because I am a NY deer hunter. Id still like to see my heard improve and do practice selection and land improvement on my land.But the fact is, unless it's done on adjacent lands, it's all for naught.I'm willing to put in the work and sacrifice to make the hunting better, but the fact is.... I can't do it alone.Hey, maybe we should just leave things the way they are and not even try. Or, maybe we should try, I really don't know!
Too bad you guys aren't seeing bucks. I'm not currently having that problem. Saw 7 or 8 last year that were 8 points or over. Plus, this spring I'm seeing way more deer in the fields feeding than ever. I think all of the Finger Lakes is experiencing an upswing in populations with larger bucks in the mix.
NY does have the genetics and can produce some monsters if they are allowed to live that long.
Just look at the areas where deer can't be hunted because of houses etc and see how big the deer are there.
On Long Island we use to have a lot of big bucks but then they upped the buck tags where if you shot a doe you earned another buck tag and they allowed bucks to be taken during the shot gun season and poaching has increased. All this decreased the big bucks on long island.
Maybe there could just be antler restrictions for gun season?
Bobaru, Glad to here it. I bet your pumped for the upcoming season! I used to hunt the Trumansburg area in ullyses township were I grew up. There was always the slim chance to bag a monster buck. Made for some exciting hunting. I managed to get a big 9 point one year that dressed out 215 lbs. The deer was 8 yrs. old.Best of luck to you.
Your right Mint, some areas do have the potential and some areas don't. I'm talking generally here, but your right, you do have to let them grow. A two year old buck has a much better chance to survive than a yearling because they have gone threw a hunting season.
I'm not for state wide AR, manyif not most, places in NY don't need it. My son hunts out by the finger lakes and they kill deer up there that would scare you!! Here in Dutchess Putnam and Westchester, we've been getting some really good bucks.
My area of the Catskills is a bit of a different story. I know that the locals, for the most part wont kill does, and the look down upon people who do. If you go to the local coffee shop during deer season, you hear "getcher buck yet??" The DEC doesn't help by drastically cutting the management permits in that area. and let me tell you, I see a TON of does. The DEC claims that the numbers aren't representative of the over all heard in the zone because of "feeding". As I stated in my earlier post, in the late 70's, 80's and early to mid 90's bucks were few and far between. you could walk for miles in the woods and not come across a scrape or a rub. But as for a state wide AR, I don't feel that its necessary.
Forkhorn or 8ptr, the genes are already there. Does not matter at what age they breed as to if "good" or "bad" genetics continue in the herd.
Antler growth has much more to do with available nutrition. UGA and Texas A&M have done extensive studies on this. If anything, MATURE bucks with spikes or forkhorns are the detriment to the herd.
Too many states are into "trophy" potential which is money driven. Hunters are the true game managers. If a hunter is OK with a forkhorn or spike, well, that should be their choice. They buy their tag, they take what they are satisfied with.
Yep. I hunt the Catskills. No, I am not a resident of NY. I do believe the resident's voices should be heard the loudest on the issue.
Gun hunters are the vast majority in NY. They already get one buck. Those who take a second buck either by archery or muzzleloader are not a large percentage.
QDM here in the Southern Zone...Butchers are complaining the lack of deer they are seeing coming in from hunters.
Taxidermist stating they are getting in more quality, mature bucks. I see both sides where I bowhunt, a few nice bucks but quite a few inferior deer, spikes, 3 or 4 pts. These inferior deer are still here now close to 3 yrs. Are these the deer breeding the does once a good mature buck is taken prior to the rut?
I love eating venison so I bowhunt Jersey and CT along with NY but most of my time is in Jersey where I'm not restricted and can put some meat in my freezer. It's very hard on a bowhunter who takes a week or two off to hunt and watches nothing but "Non shootable bucks" walk by every day.
Everything depends on your area to bowhunt. I feel the DEC mis manages the antlerless permits and issue far too many. Loss of habitat for these animals plays an important role in the DEC decisions. Westchester/Putnam counties where gaining access to private land is extremely difficult, give these bucks a chance to grow and mature.
The same can't be said for State Land. QDM is a double edge sword, has good points and bad. I still feel inferior deer should be culled somewhere down the road, especially if you take the only mature/shootable buck on the property you hunt AND no other shootable buck comes in there looking to service the does.
I know it's not easy managing a deer herd county by county and as bowhunters, we just hope all will work out for us.
Good discussion everyone. Iv' learned a few things by this topic. I don;t think there are any hard core right or wrong answers here. We obviously have one common concern and a love for Deer hunting. Whatever restrictions we put in place should be for the betterment of or sport and not on our individual rights as hunters and land owners. Looks to me that management should be regional and tapered to the situation at hand with the voices of those hunters effected guiding it.
May we continue to voice our concerns and effect the state authority into doing what is best for our Deer and it's hunters.
New York ranks as one of the worst states for yearling buck survival..I believe we lose 70% or more of our yearling bucks from the data I read.A 120 inch buck is a nice buck but not usually a mature 4.5 yr old or older buck with exceptons.It would be nice to see more mature bucks in NY.A one buck limit would help. There are also those that fill multiple buck permits purchased by or for non hunting family members curbing this could help as well.This is a very touchy subject as some people hunt strictly for meat while others thrive on the challenge of pursuing a mature buck, we need to find a balance for everyone and thats no easy task.
Another point of discussion, is that in areas with few or no doe permits issued guess what becomes the target? Any buck.
That's simply how it is.
AR those bucks and watch the participation/license sales decrease.
It is not a clear line in the sand.
New York ranks as one of the worst states for yearling buck survival..I believe we lose 70% or more of our yearling bucks from the data I read.A 120 inch buck is a nice buck but not usually a mature 4.5 yr old or older buck with exceptons.It would be nice to see more mature bucks in NY.A one buck limit would help. There are also those that fill multiple buck permits purchased by or for non hunting family members curbing this could help as well.This is a very touchy subject as some people hunt strictly for meat while others thrive on the challenge of pursuing a mature buck, we need to find a balance for everyone and thats no easy task.
Sorry for the double post .
One thing that I have learned from MANY years of gun hunting.....
"Most" gun hunters, only take off a couple of days,at the MOST, maybe a week to hunt. They head to "deer camp" for opening day and hunt. If they shoot the 1st spike that walks in front of them... They're DONE!!! Fine with them, the quick sucess was just what they were looking for!!!
I have killed many good bucks, late in the season. The crowds are gone,and I pretty much have the woods to myself... I like to HUNT!!!
I don't like, or agree, with antler restrictions... The old system worked fine for me!!!!!
Just one old woodchucker's thoughts.....
I believe I should be able to shoot what I choose. As long as the animal you shoot puts a smile on your face and feeds your family, it's a great harvest. I also believe when we start getting away from hunting for food we are walking on a slippery slope. I feel it should remain a personal decision, not another law that makes it more difficult to feed my family. My 2 cents.
I have to say that we dont have much problem seeing alot of deer in my area either. I hear alot of people saying that the numbers are down around here but not in my woods. I seen a nice 8pt the very first morning and then we had 2 killed later on in the season that would make most anyone happy. Theres no AR up here and we see alot of bone but ive read its due to good soil quality and plentaful food sources. I dont want to be told what I can and cant shoot on my own property. AR is not for this guy <----
I say shoot all the 2 year old spikes.
there I said it. I hunted a place in washington county that outlawed shooting spikes, problem was thats all I would see. There were 1 1/2-2 year old spikes. They were doing the breeding and I couldnt eat any of them. I counted 23 spike bucks that year and they all walked.
Generally, I shoot does. I can't eat antler. I can make knives and stuff from it, but I can use a set so far you wouldn't believe it. So does put more meat in the freezer to me.
We have a very nice 10 point in the area. Some mornings I step out as he's slipping back into the woods. I just raise my coffee cup to him. If he's made it that far, I'm not bothering him. Especially when there are so many does out there that I have to run them out of my blackberries and such.
My issue with antler restrictions is twofold:
1. Antler restrictions do not produce healthy deer herds because they do not address buck to doe ratios.
2. Antler restrictions might prevent shooting immature bucks, but they also prevent culling trash racks. We have had a four on a side restriction here for five years? We are seeing more club racks and racks without eye guards point just because that what is out there breeding.
In a lot of ways, earn a buck makes more sense than an antler restriction. What I mean by that is that you must first take and check a doe before your buck tag is valid. Meat hunters are forced to cull does instead of young bucks and the buck to doe ratio improves in he process. This assumes, of course, that you have a lot of deer.
I support quality deer management. But still not seeing a lot of bucks due to how many can be taken. I would rather go back to take one buck period, you chose to take it with a gun, BP, compound bow, traditional bow and or even a cross bow.
Well said Charlie!!!!! I raise my glass to ya Brother!!!!!
I've said for years, That antler restrictions only insure that the spikes get to do most of the breading... The first legal buck that's steps in front of "most" gun hunters is dead!!! More does for the little guys,when they catch up to them.....
But heck... Nobody listens to an old woodchucker.....
Like the way mr. Wensel puts it in the video primal dreams, "Don't pick the fruit before its ripe"!
Unless of course alot of Ny hunterd here really are that worried that if they don't kill that immature buck that their neighbors will. Aren't us trad guys at least a little more prone to putting limitations on ourselves already anyway? Crossbows and rifles might ensure yourselves of letting no immature deer slip through your spot? I'm not telling anyone they cannot do anything thats legal in their area. If it's legal and thats what you choose to do then so be it. However , I definitely wouldn't complain if more guys jumped on the bandwagon and let the little guys grow up.
Just to put things in perspective.....I wonder how many hunters that are pro AR have ever hunted a whole season without seeing a deer, buck or doe. I know that I have done it many times, a few times back to back years. Makes my chances to get a shot very dear to me and I want to be able to do so when I can.......No matter if it's spike, a doe or a 130 class buck! Even the areas I hunt in the southern zone have the same deer densities as the Adirondacks so I treasure shot opportunities.
I think you hit the nail on the head, Ron!!!!!
Many hunters have no idea what it's like to go days, weeks, sometimes YEARS, without even seeing a deer!!! (and how many of those hunters, would still be hunting, if they had to???)
If its legal & I feel I want it (even a spike)I'll shoot it.If someone wants to pass bucks up waiting for what ever they feel is a trophy to them, its their choice. To alot of us its not about the rack.
For me personally its been a great thing for PA, like some others have said it may be tough for a few years. In 5 years when your in the woods seeing 8 and 10 point bucks you'll appreciate it. Until then it may be discouraging, but hang in there!!!
Well said Ron. I'm fortunate to see deer regularly, But my preferred style of hunting from the ground with no blind limits me to very few shot opportunities. If I had to wait for a trophy buck every year, my family would be mighty hungry come winter.
I sure have, never saw anything but mom doe's with fawns and spike or small 4 points bucks. I am sick of the brown is down and then lets see if we tag it during the gun season. I like the idea of AR and hope it will provide for bigger bucks. But I still like more take a buck of any size and that it for the year, But just one, take it with bow, gun or cross bow, but just one.
-I have found that if you want to kill big bucks you have to let them grow up.
-If you want to increase opportunity at a deer, shorten the gun season in your state.
-If you want bigger bucks without AR, limit bucks to one per person per year and your trophy hunters will become much more selective letting the wee ones grow up and achieving better quality bucks at the same time.Increase the number of doe permits
-IMO
I believe that each part of NYS is different in deer density and sex ratio. With that being said my area's sex ratio is way out of balance. I keep track of 12.5 miles of back roads around my property and have counted as many as 48 doe and not one buck. I would like to see the state require that each hunter kill one doe before he or she can get a buck tag then also include another doe tag.
Regards,
Grouse
Believe me the one buck limit works and works very well. When we adopted that it drastically improved our buck ratios. Best change our state agency has ever made, IMO.
My Dad strongly opposed the rule change but now agrees that it was a good change. When he last hunted a few years back he liked seeing three good bucks in one day on average.
It does take a few years but once the guys that oppose it are seeing more and better bucks when they hunt there isn't much opposition.
QuoteOriginally posted by ron w:
Just to put things in perspective.....I wonder how many hunters that are pro AR have ever hunted a whole season without seeing a deer, buck or doe. I know that I have done it many times, a few times back to back years. Makes my chances to get a shot very dear to me and I want to be able to do so when I can.......No matter if it's spike, a doe or a 130 class buck! Even the areas I hunt in the southern zone have the same deer densities as the Adirondacks so I treasure shot opportunities.
Ron, I say this in all respect and do not mean to be confrontational by any means but I have seen you post that you haven't killed a deer in something like 17 years of trying. And now reading that you have hunted entire seasons without seeing a single deer I would really like to know how come you wouldn't want to do anything possible to try and change that and be successful?
LOL....your close TJ, it's not 17 years, my last shot was it 71', yes 1971. The only thing I can think of to change that would be to move. And I do plan to move to Georgia in the not to distant future. I live where I live, I hunt public land because it's available. I have been hunting a small piece of property with ADK ken and my sightings have improved....but not that much. Last year I hunted in a bow only zone in the burbs' and saw more deer that I have in a long time. But it's not like hunting to me, or at least what I like and I have to travel over an hour to get there. So I don't know how I could change anything.....other than moving.
NYS gun IS only one buck. Archery and Muzzleloader gives one either sex tag. The other tag is antlerless. When one looks at the actual numbers, it is not the folks taking more than one buck by using multiple weapons that is making the greatest impact. It has much more to do with what the vast majority of NYS gun hunters are doing with their single tag. And, their doe management permits. The situation is so varied by region it is a difficult challenge to manage the entire state.
Imput is not only heard from hunters, but from farmers (commercial ones too), insurance companies, landowners and yes, tourism.
One would be suprised to know who's voices are being heard at the table.
In some areas nuisance permits are misused also....Hunters are not allowed on but sharpshooters are allowed to shoot any deer that shows it's face.
These are all good points, and very interesting to read and consider.
I hadn't really considered the thought of "earning" your first buck by first shooting a doe. This would be an interesting idea.
I do fear however that alot of areas in NYS already have fairly low deer numbers and shooting so many does by gun hunters would have serious impacts on the total deer numbers.
I do personally try and let all the spikes and younger bucks walk, but the unfortunate reality is that I'm affected more by what others do than what I do.
I also admit, I've not had many seasons where I don't at least see a decent buck (8pt+), and very rarely a season without a shot on at least a 6pt. So maybe I'm biased towards antler restriction because I'm not suffering.
Just for the record for those whoa re not NY hunters or residents and not familiar with the tag system ...
You CAN get:
1 buck tag for gun season,
1 either sex muzzleloading/bow
1 doe muzzleloading/bow
2 DMP (doe) tags (dependent on lottery)
AND if you're on LI, 2 does earns another buck
AND unlimited doe tags on LI (they'll keep giving you more if you bring in the doe's head)
So I think most only get 2 bucks at most, and probably only 5% of guys actually kill 2 a season. I'd be only 30% of tag holders get ANY buck.
I have hunted a few different states and was fortunate enough to see a lot of deer in every state.
NY it seems to me, doesn't want the deer population to grow.., or predators and food supply keep the population down. IMO a change in laws backed with research from other states can't hurt NYS. It's worth a try in the areas where the deer heard is low in population.
(Note to self, think before you post....)
My issue is not really about shooting 6pts vs. 10's, it's about shooting non-cull spikes, year old bucks, and yearling does.
First off, deer herds need managing. The State doesn't always get it right, but the days of Darwinian species balance are no more. I am in favor of AR standards. Shooting little bucks is not a big whoop. Conversely, you can't eat horns. There is nothing wrong with herd management being part of hunting.
AR standards should apply to all ages. Kids shouldn't be taught that killing a yearling is an accomplishment. Counting coup and letting one walk is also a good lesson to teach. Perhaps one of the best.
If killing deer is the most important thing, then hunt with a compound or a rifle. I keep deer in the freezer, but don't hunt for the killing. If I did, I would be looking through a Zeiss scope and not over a bow.
If your family is hungry, you probably are better off finding other ways to feed them than hunting, esp. with a stickbow.
Just because you hunted hard all season or only got to hunt three days doesn't give you extra credit to shoot x or y type of animal.
I own my own land, and worked hard for it. It is not high fenced. My actions and those of my neighbors affect the local deer population. I should not be able to kill what I want to just because I own the land. I don't own the deer.
I'll stop there before I poke too many sticks in this ant bed.
Stumpknocker has it right.No individual owns the deer , they belong to the state and it should be the DEC's responsibility to produce the best resource possible ie a healthy deer population with good age structure .Their hunting regulations should reflect that goal and they have every right to tell us what we can and cannot shoot and when we can shoot them, and they do, our current antler restriction in most of the state is a three inch spike on one side .Generally there is an inverse relationship between the number of hunters in a state and the length of the firearms season yet NY does the opposite.We have one of the highest number of deer hunters and one of the longest firearms seasons in the nation.Couple this with a 2 buck limit and most yearlings are toast. I find passing up bucks and observing and filming their behavior and movement patterns with todays small camcorders that fit in a pocket to be very rewarding and often reveal subtleties in terrain use ,individual behavior and timing we use to our advantage.My hunting partners and I have learned to relax and enjoy the show and have experienced the rewards.The first one's the hardest.
Stumpknocker, I agree with most of what you said. However, Not one responder to this thread has batted a thousand, you included as well as I. Allowing a teenager to shoot a yearling isn't teaching them contrary to good hunting ethic, the idea is to teach them all the responsebilities that go with making a chose and what needs to be done after a kill. The whole learning process is more important than WHAT buck is killed. He or she will have plenty of opportunities to count coup.
Anyone legally hunting has a right to arrow any Deer that person has a legal tag for. If I only get to hunt 3 days and I choose to shoot a legal spike or doe.........that's not extra credit!
Iv' eaten a lot of Doe tags the last 6 yrs. because I believed that was the best for my hunting area. I don;t shoot non cull spikes or four points, but if the guy hunting the State land next to my property wants too, and if he's playing by rules.....he has every right to.
Hopefully I haven;t mis read what you were saying, but that is how I see it.
That's right we don't own the deer but the State does not own us either. If you want to shoot a big buck then pass the small ones but don't make everyone else do the same if they choose not too. I want to see whats going to happen to the deer herd when there are too many bucks after a long rut and a hard winter.
I didn't see this post until way late in the game, but I'll throw in my $.02 worth.
I spent many years living in Germany, where the game is very professionally managed. I loved hunting there, but have to admit that hunting in Germany is somewhat an elitist sport available only to the relatively well heeled and very dedicated. All that not withstanding, I saw deer herds managed at a nearly 1 to 1 ratio - bucks to does. This provides huntable bucks without a lot of crop damage in a very densely populated country.
I think Michigan is probably more like a 1 to 10 or worse ratio. We stack the deer like cord wood on the roads of the lower part of the state. The deer herd is grossly overpopulated, but just increasing the kill count does nothing to reduce the size of the herd if more bucks are taken than does. Michigan has a two buck limit, but has just passed new regulations for antler restrictions. I would like to see our DNR go even farther and make a second buck tag available only after a doe is taken.
For some of us, one doe would be enough venison (my wife will absolutely not eat Bambi, although she has no trouble eating Thumper). For those with larger families to feed, a second doe and a buck would probably do the trick. If not, then a 3rd doe until the herd comes into better alignment.
Sure, we all get excited over a big rack, but I get a real kick out of stalking up to bow range of a deer of either sex. Doe venison tastes every bit as good as that from a buck and I think we need to alter the mentality that only bucks should be killed. This was necessary when the whitetail had nearly died out from over-hunting, but in those areas where the deer population has more than recovered, let's let the biologists create a balanced herd without a lot of screaming that hunter's rights are being trampled.
We are spending our DNR funds to hire qualified wildlife biologists. Let's let them do their job and prove their qualifications. For some areas (the Upper Peninsula in MI) that may mean a reduced take over all and for other areas a much heavier take of does while allowing the bucks to develop to at least 2-year olds.
I think this thread would be a whole lot more interesting and productive if it was spoken around a camp fire but in this format it just gets too emotional. I like a lot of the points expressed here and only a few have been subjective.
From reading all of the posts the one thing I see missing is the idea managing deer for the overall health of the habitat they populate and more call to manage for "Quality" deer. All deer are quality to me and I feel that killing a yearling buck is an accomplishment, even after killing over 100 deer with all manners of weapons.
My favorite point that Ive seen made in this thread is that each hunter should kill what he wants within their legal boundaries. If you dont want to kill young ones, keep letting them go but when the fella on the next ridge does, well,,,, you had your opportunity and let it go. Try and come to terms with it.
I have seen from experience that that one guy who lets a forky go does make a difference even if the deer is killed later on. The killing of that deer by the next guy save the forky that was coming from the opposite direction right? Keep at it and do your thing, it just irritates me when people push their agenda with emotion.Ill keep on hunting for what floats my boat and not to prove myself to anyone with a big rack on the wall. Im running out of wall space anyway. :campfire:
Good summery Izzy.
Yes Izzy well put.
Good points Izzy and Ron. One large problem is, everyone is coming at this debate with different local experiences relative to deer numbers and herd health.
I think we can all agree that a properly managed deer herd is Most important. I think the larger issue people have is how to get there. I also tend to think people have lost trust in the state to manage the deer heard properly. Unfortunately due to budget cuts, Biologists have less tools to dictate herd size. 15 years ago, they used to go afield and do counts, tests and studies to help with deer census. Now they rely on math equations, hunter reports, motorist collisions and a panel of biased or unbiased members. The problem is Biologists are not able to do a good job.
I hate to change the subject and I know some of my info is subject to debate but I feel that if we had a healthy deer herd all over, hunters would be more content in general.
Guess I can't get into the mind set of AR so that people can increase their probability of getting a 10 point. I started hunting behind the house in 1966 when the total deer take in NY State was 70,000. Now the total deer take goes between 225,000 and 300,000. So, when I compare my original opportunities with opportunities today, I feel blessed. And, if I want to shoot a 10 point, my solution set wouldn't be to have the DEC jury-rig the system to favor me. No, my solution would be to work a little harder. But, that's just me. You all are welcome to different opinions. No sense getting emotional on this subject as far as I can see.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bobaru:
Guess I can't get into the mind set of AR so that people can increase their probability of getting a 10 point. I started hunting behind the house in 1966 when the total deer take in NY State was 70,000. Now the total deer take goes between 225,000 and 300,000. So, when I compare my original opportunities with opportunities today, I feel blessed. And, if I want to shoot a 10 point, my solution set wouldn't be to have the DEC jury-rig the system to favor me. No, my solution would be to work a little harder. But, that's just me. You all are welcome to different opinions. No sense getting emotional on this subject as far as I can see.
You nailed it. I know of many hunters who consistently kill big bucks right here and everywhere else where there are a lot of folks stating that big bucks arent there. And when big bucks do get killed there its always "AHHHH They Just Got Lucky." I dont believe its luck. These big buck killers are the guys that take 2 months off of work, dont spend time with their families if they still have them, skip watching football and just about everything else but hunting the bigguns. Like I said before, theyre everywhere throughout the state, in every region. No they dont give up easy at all and the price to kill one is hunting a lot harder than the methods you use to kill yearlings and 2 1/2 year olds. When a man understands that mature deer and immature deer are like 2 different species and still has the drive to hunt them as such he will start to see that they are in his woood lot too.
AMEN!
I hear "I got MY buck" way too often. This just irks me as it is NOT your buck until you kill and properly tag it. There seems to be a huge amount of pressure for hunters to "get their buck" and then brag about it. This causes many hunters to shoot any buck just so they can say they got their buck. It's the culture around where I hunt. There is never any talk of how the hunt went, was it taken fairly, or did you enjoy your time afield. It is always about killing something. I live with about 700 acres of woods right behind my house and I rarely even hunt it because the owners (who are great guys and let me hunt it)have the "kill anything" mentality. There has not been a deer over 1.5 killed on the property in the 7 years I've lived there. This is the situation that could benefit from AR. We need something to break the "kill it at all costs" culture. Those who would prefer to hunt mature deer simply don't get a chance because the army of drivers and shooters kill everything with a semblence of bone on its head. NY also seems to have a very liberal way of interpreting bag limits. MANY of the hunters I've talked with have no problem filling tags on other's license. Just seems to be an acceptable practice??? I know the DMP permits are transferrable, but not the general buck tags etc.
There is nothing that gets under my skin like people filling other peoples buck tags. One buck should be enough if you need more venison there are always does. There are many people that know I hunt and my feelings and won't tell me the truth about filling others buck tags. They know I will turn them in family or not. One young man this year was bragging about the two 1 1/2 year old eight pointers he shot with his bow in first two weeks. I email his father a copy of the encon law and let him know how I felt. This put a stop to it.
I agree with both wapiti chaser and indiana bowman. My best hunting buddy lives in Delaware county but comes up to central NY to deer hunt because a 2.5 yr old buck is a rare site there...poaching, road hunting, multiple permit filling,and nuisance permit abuse is rampant.He knew one individual that killed four yearling bucks and one 2.5 yr old last year.On one farm last year they shot a 15in wide 2.5 yr. old and it was the biggest buck they ever shot on the farm and the farm has been in the family for decades.These same people complain that they want to shoot a decent but can't let one go by without shooting at it even though they have a freezer full of beef.It's essential that they can tell everyone that they got their deer .I've worked with my neighbors to resolve these problems by rescinding permission to hunt and having the police visit a few people and it's made a difference.
The last 3 posts are exactly why AR won't work here in New York. Even in areas where it is already going on, the mentality of some won't let it happen. It's like it's bred into them to get as many as they can and use tags over again. I know most guys around me never report a kill....and never will. It is a shame.......I taught Bow hunters safety for 15 years and the kids always would comment, that's not how my Dad or Uncle or Grandpa does it when we would work on the ethics part of the program. But we tried to steer them to the right path!
My 75 acres is surrounded by 3,000 acres of state land that gets hunted by the brown it's down crowd every year. I know some of these guys, and there not bad guys, ( most of them ) but they hunt for a couple of week ends and Thanksgiving day, shoot the spikes, forkies, and Does and call it a season. But thats just on my side of the hill. The same thing is going on the other side of the hill as well. Two years ago I ran in to one of my neighbors while I was putting a tag on 2 1/2 yr. old buck with 16 in. spread. He looked down at it and said " wow i didn't think there were any bucks like that on this hill." I said, Once in a while you can find one or two. And that's the truth. My point is, if there were any Monster bucks around, I would know about it. I make it my buisness to know. Iv' hunted this area for over 15 yrs. now. I know many people that live and work here and if there were any notable Bucks, I would here about it, see it, or find sign of them. There was one one year that was a very decent racked buck (140 maybe) and iv' seen a respectable 10 point that I guessed at 3 1/2 years old, but other than that. The big boys just aren't here.
Now don't get me wrong, I have some good deer hunting here, but for you guys that say that there are trophy deer everywhere...........ahhhhhhh not always. I have yet to see one come off this hill that weighed more than 160 lbs. So I'll keep searching threw out the year and hunting hard for whats here. Maybe One of these years I'll have a monster to hunt.
Ron W. "The last 3 posts are exactly why AR won't work here in New York."
Ron, I think you nailed it solidly. Education is the cure to the problem and that usually takes 2 - 3 generations. There was a valid reason for the "bucks only" system, but that time is past. There was a time when the only red meat people could afford was what they poached. I don't buy that any more. Guys think nothing of spending $500 - $1500 on a bow/rifle, but won't spend the money for a license until they have brown on the ground. They're big into recycling of tags, and say things like "Hey, they're my deer. I fed them with my crops all year".
I have some family members and friends who know how I feel. We don't argue about it, but I've declined to hunt on a friends farm who was putting out a semi-load of corn and carrots every year when Michigan had a baiting ban in place. His favorite saying is "He with the biggest bait pile wins", and he shoots 3 - 4 mature bucks/year. He wouldn't shoot a doe if it had a broken leg.
You can't change that mentality, but we can work on their offspring and try to instill some hunting ethics that may get passed on down the line.
I see it on Long island too, basically you can shoot unlimited does since once you fill a doe tag they will give you another tag that is good for a buck or doe. Sadly these guys will shoot a doe to get another buck tag and then shoot a little fork horn or spike instead of taking another doe.
I will say though it is changing but very slowly.
They might be hungry :bigsmyl:
QuoteOriginally posted by WTM45:
Forkhorn or 8ptr, the genes are already there. Does not matter at what age they breed as to if "good" or "bad" genetics continue in the herd.
Excellent point. :thumbsup:
The sole purpose for managing for antlers on a state-wide basis is perceived hunter satisfaction. There is no significant biological need for that type of management. If you are not satisfied, let your voices be heard.
QuoteOriginally posted by Stumpknocker:
AR standards should apply to all ages. Kids shouldn't be taught that killing a yearling is an accomplishment.
With respect, I completely DISAGREE with this statement. Killing a yearling, spike, nub buck, four point, whatever is a heck of an accomplishment for a kid, new hunter, disabled hunter,or anyone that hunts property that is not conducive to large deer populations or antler development. That's like saying the 8 oz bass a kid catches on his spiderman pole doesn't count.
In some measure, hunter recruitment and retention is based on success. I've been playing this game for about 30 years now and I can tell you that the nubbin buck that I killed with that old 20 gauge 870 wingmaster when I was a teenager is as vivid a memory as any. It satisfied my youthful bloodlust, fueled my enthusiasm and excitement, made me feel like I was a part of the hunting fraternity, and sealed my future as a hunter. The deer that my kids killed when they were young served the same purpose. They were hooked. Within a few short years my son was self-regulating the bucks that he killed.
It is not reasonable to expect young people or new enthusiasts to have the perspective that people who have been doing this a while have.
TV and heavy handed QDM will kill hunting.
Amen Gregg, I respectfully disagreed with that statement also. So many positives as I stated in a previous post. Well articulated Gregg!
There are three basic rules to deer management.
1) You have to kill more does, if you want more bucks.
2) Where you start, is where you stop. (You will seldom see bucks larger than the minimum allowed, whether it be by age or antler size.)
3)Everybody has to be on the same page. (That's the hard part.)