Im stubborn by nature, including when advised to shoot critters broad sided. Ive always been a fan of the behind last rib to the offside shoulder and have never lost an animal with this shot. Straight broad side, yes I have lost a few with compound bows and a couple of trad deer.
On the cross through, sharp, quartering away shot, the diaphragm is usually compromised. At least thats my intention and part of the reason Im taking the sharp angling shot. Does it lead to suffocation as the lungs are not operating well because of it being punctured? Again, I have never lost an animal that has been shot this way and wondered if its just coincidence (usually both lungs and heart punctured too) or that it adds to rapid death. What do you folks think of the shot and how much does a punctured diaphragm contribute to recovering a big game animal? Id love to know what you veterinarians think (or know). :dunno:
I have shot a few deer slightly quartering away a bit too far back and got liver hits that also punctured the diaphragm and got one lung. None of these deer went over 65 yards and most died in under 40. In my opinion it is a truly lethal shot because without a properly functioning diaphragm no animals including humans lungs can function properly and cause the chest cavity to expand. This leads to rapid suffocation and death.
I actually prefer the quartering shot over any other shot. I'm with you izzy, I have had better blood trails with quartering away shots. I will be watching this one, good questions here :readit:
Just to clarify, you will shoot an animal broadside if that is the only shot you get... won't you?
I like the slightly quartering away angle as opposed to the hard quartering away angle. I just don't see any way possible to get both lungs and the heart on a hard quartering away angle shot?
I always look for slightly quartering away with the near side leg forward. If I hit where I am looking, this shot does not puncture the diaphragm but it renders the critter dead in a matter of seconds.
I also believe the slightly quartering away angle gives you the most room for error when you happen to make a bad shot.
Bisch
I believe the quartering away shot has long been the preferred shot angle simply because it aligns multiple organs.
Yep, I prefer a slight quarter. That diaphragm controls the breathing. I've had deer go much farther with broadside heart shots than shots that include the diaphragm.
I will take a straight broad side but prefer the angle that goes through everything.
I like quartering away shots simply because I can shoot for the "middle" and have a whole lot of room for error and much less chance of a shoulder encounter with the low pounds I shoot.I will not wait if the critter is broadside though.RC
I've hesitated to say the same thing Izzy but my experiences mirror yours. I like those really sharp quartering away shots. The kind where you put the arrow behind the last rib. The first time I did this it was an accident. The last five or six times I did it on purpose. None of the deer went very far and most went down in sight!
I think you hit it on the head RC. Quartering away gives one more room for error. I'll take either one, of course, if given the opportunity. When I put the arrow in the right place, broadside or quartering, I've never had them go too far.
I think the big advantage to the quartering is that it cuts a longer path thru the lungs making for more damage and quicker blood loss. Poking a hole in the diaphragm makes for a leak in the chest cavity, but so does a hole thru the hide fwd of the diaphragm. At least the hole in the hide leaks air in and blood out. A hole in the diaphragm is easily blocked by internal stuff and won't really contribute to the blood trail.
I think a slight quater is great, but so is a broadside shot...
I say that because they are both lethal shots and it is hunting...not shooting. Seldom do I get what I want when hunting :-) and I advocate take what you get.
If there is a problem with a quarter away shot it is that the animal is usually gone past you and this will be your last chance.
Hunting to me is more about increasing chances not leaving it to the last chance... Picky I know, I just worry sometimes that newer hunters will limit their shots too much.
A heart shot deer can run a long ways, a deer that can't breath don't go far!
I promise you that the hole punched in the diaphragm is not what is causing your improved results. A healthy animal can function with just one lung and the hole provided by a broadhead will not completely destroy the function of that hemidiaphragm. Any improved results are from other factors in play.
The quartering shot is statistically a more lethal shot. As RC stated, it makes for a larger kill zone.And as Jonsimoneau said, in behind the last rib is a dead deer. I also like a going away shot for the fact that the deer has a harder time looking backwards.Iv' never lost a deer when shot at a hard quarter. I do however dislike putting an arrow threw the gut if I can help it. The last two deer I shot with a trad bow, I shot brood side threw the heart. They didn't go very far either. I will take whichever kill shot is offered.
I believe that reducing the function of the diaphragm may cause the deer to lay down quicker, hence shorter tracking jobs, but it is the blood loss of the vital organs that killed the deer.
No doubt though, a hard quartering shot from above exiting in front and low of the opposite leg will leave a heck of a blood trail.
Bottom line is take the first lethal shot you get, at least that's my line of thinking.
I guess I should explain further as well. The size of a hole put in the diaphragm by a broadhead would be similar to that of a small congenital diaphragmatic hernia, which can be without symptoms sometimes.
Izzy...90% of my bow shots (from the ground) have been quartering away. That's how I setup my natural blinds, wanting that shot.
I have never lost a deer with a well placed arrow quartering away. I lost 2 when my arrow hit a tad too far back and found them the next day. Coyotes ate good.
Broadside shots from the ground are tough but probably more lethal because of the wider kill zone and more room for error. You can be off 4" and still make the kill but 4" off on a quartering deer could lead to problems.
Rhinehart offers a full size deer where you can pull remove part of the chest and it exposes all the vitals. We use it for Bowhunter Ed classes. Really opens your eyes where your arrow will travel once it enters the animal. Also remember the deer reacts to being hit and this will alter the path of your arrow.
I can see exactly what your saying Pat as far as the hernia example. Im sure a lot of the short recoveries Ive seen from that shot are from the length of the wound channel through the lungs,heart and possibly the liver in some instances and the diaphragm just happens to get hit. It is also a bone free zone which may help if only slightly with penetration.
When I was preparing for my bear hunt in Saskatchewan eight years ago there was this whole trending conversation about "over the hip" shots on bears. It really boiled down to the hard quartering shot through the diaphram. I hadn't thought about that conversation in a long while until this came up. I ended up shooting my bear broadside. :D
If you think about the longest distance of travel through the body then the quartering shot makes a lot of sense. More trauma over a larger distance increasing the number of organs, tissue, etc. that the broadhead comes into contact with. I look for a quartering shot on hogs although I know some killers who have differing opinions.
Anyway I can get through both lungs is just fine with me. Broadside at 15 yds, and on the ground is my fav shot! :archer2:
Call it luck, considence whatever but I've NEVER lost a animal that was shot quartering away that the diaphragm was poked. Like some have said it may just be because of a bigger kill zone, multiple organs skewed etc but bottom line it's my favorite shot.
On an arrow wound through the lungs there is massive hemorrhage but when you also puncture the diaphragm there is more room for the lungs to collapse. In the emergency medical field its called hemo thorax. The diaphragm continues to move but now its pumping fluids from the abdomen into the thorax. This presssure deflates the lungs making breathing less effective. A puncture through the ribs can do the same thing. As the diaphragm moves it sucks air in through the new hole collapsing the lungs. Stuff learned in EMT school. Because the mechanics of a deers lungs are basically the same the results are bleeding to death and suffocating at the same time and fast.
Chris
How bout the Texas Heart Shot anyone? LOL. The quartering away shot definitely makes sense anatomically.
I don't want to sidetrack Izzy's thread, but I am gonna disagree with your reasoning, akaboomer. No big deal, just a conversation. For a hole through the chest wall to do what you say, it must seal on expiration and act like a check valve, a somewhat infrequent event, especially with a broadhead entry wound. Now, a wound that only damaged the diaphragm but not the lung parenchyma could do as you say, but again, that would be an unlikely event. Any damage to the lungs would decrease the vacuum effect, and the blood in the chest cavity would be primarily from the damage to the diaphragm and thorax. Interesting discussion, though. Actually seen a little bit of this type of injury in humans, myself.
I am not sure whether the animals that I have shot quartering away have expired more quickly than broadside. I would really have to go back and think about it. I think I have shot quite abit more from directly broadside than quartering through the diaphragm. A longer wound change certainly would give you some more opportunites to hit a big vessel. Alternatively, if you take out the big vessels coming out of the heart, it doesn't take long for the brain to suffer. Really good discussion.
Lots of shot angles are quickly lethal. That said, I prefer a nice broadside shot because the odds are greater that I can centerpunch both lungs without hitting any major bone. Critters that take a major bone hit are much more prone to immediate and rapid flight meaning I have to track them farther.
Having been fortunate enough to take over 200 big game animals myself with stick and string, plus recovering roughly 500 more critters hit by my clients, one thing I am fairly confident of is.......day in and day out, I will take two center hit lungs every single time. Despite countless assurances by clients after tracking their deer for more than 100 yards, I have never had a deer of any variety make it 50 yards with a hole poked through the middle of its lungs.
Not close to 200 kills, but I couldn't agree more Mitch. When I double lung em, I watch them fall. I shot a giant whitetail buck through both lungs and he was collapsing in less than 30 yds on a dead run. It's the largest animal I've killed so far and fell over as fast as any other.
QuoteOriginally posted by Overspined:
Not close to 200 kills, but I couldn't agree more Mitch. When I double lung em, I watch them fall. I shot a giant whitetail buck through both lungs and he was collapsing in less than 30 yds on a dead run. It's the largest animal I've killed so far and fell over as fast as any other.
Although I am on the high side of 50, when I bust an arrow through a deers lungs and they just flinch and look around wondering what just happened, it is hard for me to keep from giggling out loud and telling them that they should have run when they had the chance. :biglaugh:
I know one thing, I don't pass up either shot. If I was going to try to arrange a stand for a shot it would be for slighlty quartering away, mostly to make it less likely to get busted on the draw.
Diaphram puncture equals dead animal., They cannot create the vaccum needed to inflate the lungs when the diaphragm is broken.
I'm not going to say how many animals I have killed in 57 years of bowhunting but I love the quartering away shot above any other. Put an arrow behind the rib cage at a 45 and you have an animal that is going in the freezer.
BTw I have had a small puncture in my diaphragm and it is unbelieveable painful and so difficult to breath. I cannot imagine any animal making any distance at all with an arrow through the diaphragm and whatever else it takes out past that. Anyway every one I ever hit like that fed my family.
God bless you all, Steve
Sorry Steve, but you are misjudging how much of an effect this has on overall lung function. In fact, in motor vehicle accidents a potential emergency is diaphragmatic rupture. This can be a true emergency as the contents of the abdomen can herniate into the chest cavity and pinch of the vascular supply to the bowel or internal organs. Also, if there is enough mass effect it can cause cardiac output problems and certainly causes shortness of breath. Smaller hernias frequently go undiagnosed and the patient may find out years later, or never. I am sorry about your hernia, but literally thousands of people are walking around with holes in their diaphragm larger than what would be put in with a broadhead. It is not the diaphragm injury that is doing the killing. Certainly isn't helping matters, though.
A deer that has a hole in both lungs will die. I don't think anyone can argue that. But the adrenalin rush or flight response can produce different results in each individual situation. This is the exact reason why some people have witnessed a double-lunged deer travel more than 150 yards after the hit (or a heart shot for that matter). Of course this is not the norm, but it has been known to happen. I myself, have had a double-lunged deer travel close to 100 yards. I've also had them drop in less than 30! My point is each scenario is different. Take the best shot that is offered, and don't always wait for a 'better' shot, when a perfectly lethal shot presents itself. I have been bitten more than once thinking I would get the more 'preferred' shot.
I'm not sure about the diaphragm theory, but I know that a liver & one lung will cause a lot of blood loss, a quick kill, and a good blood trail (providing there are two holes). I think my shortest recoveries, statistically speaking, have been from this shot.
A few things that I try to keep in mind when shooting at game is: two holes are better than one, a low hit is always better than a high hit (unless its so low that it misses the vitals or target completely, in which case the animal has a very good chance of surviving; so aim low!), and pick a spot aiming for the exit hole.
There are so many things that can go wrong, and usually do, so we need to try and keep it as simple as possible, and have fun while we're at it. That's part of what makes bowhunting so great.
If I understand it correctly - if the diaphragm is compromised, it can lead to a pneumothorax and hemothorax condition. (Pneumo = air) (hemo - blood)
Even if a lung is not punctured, allowing air, blood, or both to enter the cavity will put pressure on the lungs - but unless at least one of them is punctured, I'm not sure how much good this will do in aiding the speed of death.
Close as I can come to answering your question.
That being said, I have never compromised the diaphragm without puncturing at least one lung - that I know of... :)
QuoteOriginally posted by pdk25:
I promise you that the hole punched in the diaphragm is not what is causing your improved results. A healthy animal can function with just one lung and the hole provided by a broadhead will not completely destroy the function of that hemidiaphragm. Any improved results are from other factors in play.
I'm all in with this remark.
Seems to me..On the other (gut)side of the diaphragm is essentially another closed system. A hole in the chest wall is open directly to the outside, allowing air directly into the chest. A pair (lungs) usually trump a lung and a liver in terms of quick death. A full house (two lungs and a heart or major heart blood vessels) might be best of all. Good luck on a Ace high four of a kind. .
ChuckC
ChuckC