I was working up a heavy wood arrow for the upcoming elk season. Ash and laminated birch shafts w/ a 145gr head come in around 650-675grs. FOC is only around 8%. Now I have shot through deer w/ 500gr, 10% foc wood arrows , but elk? What are your thoughts from some who have shot such low FOC arrows on large game.
I haven't Mike but honestly can't imagine 2% making any difference at all as long as the arrow is still stable.
I wish I could say I've shot through lots of elk, let's see what the killers have to say.
No problem with low foc,i dont have any experiences with elk hunting but plenty with huge wild boars,this animal have very thick and strong skin and I never enconter a problem of penetration shooting a low foc arrow on it.
My current set up is ,51/52@28" (my draw lenght is 27"amo) aluminium arrows with 125 gr heads for a total of 540 gr,foc +/-10%
Wonder what the FOC was on Fred Bears arrows or Paul Schafer or any of the other notable bowhunters of 30+ years ago ???
Hmmmm.
No expert, but I wouldn't think it a problem if your getting good flight. I would use the heaviest BH possible for the spine of the arrow. Like I said however, good arrow flight is the most important with wood IMHO.Your arrow GPP sounds good.
Going down to 8% is right on the border line of getting poor arrow flight....IMO....
let me rephrase that.... at 8% FOC the fletching, and cross winds effect the flight a lot more. and the arrow is going to be a bit more sensitive to a less than perfect release.... Arrow flight with wet feathers at 8% vs 10% is very noticeable.
Penetration difference between 8-10% shouldn't be an issue.... Best all around recommended FOC should be between 10-15% for best arrow flight. IMO
I am probably ignorant on this subject but why would you be trying to use low FOC arrows, is there a trade off of benefits? I have read a few things by Dr. Ashby and from his perspective, not just high but extreemly high FOC seems to be a better big game killer. Is there another school of thought I am missing?
QuoteOriginally posted by Northwest_Bowhunter:
I am probably ignorant on this subject but why would you be trying to use low FOC arrows, is there a trade off of benefits? I have read a few things by Dr. Ashby and from his perspective, not just high but extreemly high FOC seems to be a better big game killer. Is there another school of thought I am missing?
The school of thought you are missing is called aerodynamics.... the guys that say its not rocket science are wrong.... these are exactly what we are dealing with here are little rockets....
for guys that are just hunting with these EFOC arrows at short range, its all about penetration as arrow flight and flat trajectory is rarely an issue at close range.... for guys who want good arrow flight at long distances there are definite advantages to a lower foc balance. other things that effect arrow flight are arrow length, fletching size, and the amount of helical used which add more or less spin to the arrow.... getting the right combination can make a huge difference....
How many pro target shooters do you see who use EFOC arrows?
I use an arrow anywhere from 650 to 750 grains depending on how I set it up. They are always wood and I just started using a heavier tip. I always had 145 grain tips before. My bows are anywhere from 55 to 65 lbs. and I usually get two holes in every elk I shoot. Like said above, arrow flight is the most important thing for penetration. An EFOC arrow won't penetrate very good if it is not flying good. Though they are easier to get good flight with. With the above setup I have attained over three feet of penetration when a bone wasn't involved.Gary
Only issue, as Kirk said, will be the arrow flight. I noticed a huge drop in wind drift when I went to a high FOC arrow. My earlier arrows were probably not as low as 8 percent, but the higher FOC arrows do fly better. If those arrows fly well, they will kill elk just fine.
I shoot fir and cedar with a 175 gn point the FOC is whatever it works out to be.15% or so. With wood you run out of spine so I just focus on good flight with a 600-650 gn arrow from a 50# bow. My son and I have killed pretty good sized hogs and 2 elk with this setup.
Just an open thought..
Total arrow length with nock and point should include point and nock. No?
Like your top pic Mike.....
QuoteOriginally posted by Bud B.:
Just an open thought..
Total arrow length with nock and point should include point and nock. No?
Correct Bud
I think High or low really does not matter as long as the arrow is tuned well and put in the right place!
Bisch
Go to the "how to" forum...use the search engine. Rob has a foc calculater in there...just put in your numbers
I'm not concerned about FOC, but, if I were, I'd use total arrow length like Mike.
I go for good tune.
Will try again. If you are getting good arrow flight, your setup will do fine for elk. There have been thousands of animals killed with very low FOC. We used to shoot NFAA target archery with arrows that only had a 25 grain target point. The FOC was near nothing or even possibly negative and the arrows could be tuned to fly perfectly. Heavy FOC can be beneficial in certain setups but is certainly not required for most.
Were any less animals killed when the only arrow material choice was wood? I think not. A well tuned arrow in the right spot should do the job.
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
....for guys that are just hunting with these EFOC arrows at short range, its all about penetration as arrow flight and flat trajectory is rarely an issue at close range.... for guys who want good arrow flight at long distances there are definite advantages to a lower foc balance. other things that effect arrow flight are arrow length, fletching size, and the amount of helical used which add more or less spin to the arrow.... getting the right combination can make a huge difference....
How many pro target shooters do you see who use EFOC arrows?
LOL Ok I see what you are talking about and why this was so confusing to me. This is a hunting forum and what you call "short range" is hunting range. So if I give a rip about putting arrow point through paper for its own sake EFOC is ok... right?
I mean if my goal is to dispatch an animal in the most humane way and EFOC isn't going to ruin my arrows flight in the first 25 yards but will penetrate deeper causing more soft tissue damage and help the beast expire faster, that is probably what I should be shooting?
Isn't it?
With Bheads....12-15% Is a safe place for a stable front end driven arrow.....8% WITH bhead would be cutting it close....I would not go that low. JMO
I average around 18% probably.
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
QuoteOriginally posted by Northwest_Bowhunter:
I am probably ignorant on this subject but why would you be trying to use low FOC arrows, is there a trade off of benefits? I have read a few things by Dr. Ashby and from his perspective, not just high but extreemly high FOC seems to be a better big game killer. Is there another school of thought I am missing?
The school of thought you are missing is called aerodynamics.... the guys that say its not rocket science are wrong.... these are exactly what we are dealing with here are little rockets....
for guys that are just hunting with these EFOC arrows at short range, its all about penetration as arrow flight and flat trajectory is rarely an issue at close range.... for guys who want good arrow flight at long distances there are definite advantages to a lower foc balance. other things that effect arrow flight are arrow length, fletching size, and the amount of helical used which add more or less spin to the arrow.... getting the right combination can make a huge difference....
How many pro target shooters do you see who use EFOC arrows? [/b]
Not many "Pro" s use even 15% foc arrows but watch what happens when the wind blows their arrows drift half a foot from their target at 25 and 30 yards. Ever watch an Olympic shooter and see how far the wind blows their arrows off or should I say "on" to their target. Higher foc arrows are superior in flight because they have a longer tail section to steer them in case of a bad release or poor form. This is the reason why many high foc arrows require less fletching or if fletched the same as a lower foc arrow exhibit better flight in bad conditions. I have shot some high foc arrows out to 40 and 50 yards and compared to an arrow that weighs close to the same but with lower foc, the flight and arc to the target are nearly identical.
I hunted with 2219 aluminums that were swagged for years. That eliminates the arrows insert and the broadhead insert and with a 150gn point makes for a very low foc. I've blown thru most of the elk I've shot with em and a couple moose. The ones that didn't go all the way thru still broke thru the flesh on the far side. In the old days no one worried about foc and did just fine, you will too.
Looks like part of the equation for high foc vs. low foc is where you hunt! If you hunt where you have to deal with a lot of wind, an efoc arrow or hfoc arrow is preferable. If you live in the woods like I do, then a low foc arrow is sufficient.I live in the hilly wooded north east and seldom if ever is wind a factor to consider where my arrow is concerned. If you live and hunt in the mid west or west then the opposite is true.
Knawbone,
Are you saying you don't think a higher foc can give you better penitration on impact? Or is over all weight of an arrow really enough?
All else being equal it has been proven in the Ashby studies that the higher the FOC an arrow has if it is the same overall weight as another arrow the higher foc arrow will out penetrate the other arrow set up.
Northwest BH, No thats not at all what I said. All I was saying is for were and what I hunt, a LFOC arrow with good flight characteristics is all I need. If your ref. things Iv' said in the past, then overall arrow weight with perfect flight CAN out penitrate an arrow with HFOC weight. It all depends on the circumstances. ie ( distance, wind, GPP vs. bow cast } I only shoot wood, so my experiences with carbon or alum. shafting is limited. With that said, whether or not EFOC arrows out penitrate a LFOC really doesn;t concern me as much as shooting an arrow of sufficient weight with good flight. Put in the right spot with a sharp BH will get it done every time. Dead is dead !
Oh well, I hoped this wouldn't turn into a high versus low foc argument. I have hunted w/ efoc(22%) and low foc(10% as I said). I wanted ACTUAL experiences w/ sub 10% foc on wood arrows on elk sized game. Thanks to those that answered my question.
Sorry Prairie Drifter not trying to argue, just answering a question asked of me. Sometimes we get off base.Human nature I suppose. I think Terry answered the question quite well. Going below a 10% foc with wood fringes on unstable flight ect.
PS, I didn't see an argument but a clerification. Thanks for posting!
Knawbone,
Thanks for clearing that up.