I am reading his book "Instinctive Shooting",,and have the video to accompany. I have to report that I don`t quite understand what he is trying to get across. I have not been able to shoot well doing what he describes. Can anyone shed some light>?
For me, I use part of his technique, but if I try to shoot as fast as he does, it doesn't work for me. I do swing draw, but if I am going to hit something, I need to hold at anchor for a couple of seconds. He describes 'push pull', which for me is the way that I will put arrows in the target. If my 'push pull' technique breaks down, I don't shoot worth a hoot.
I don't know if that is why you are having trouble with his method of shooting, but if so, try holding at full draw for a little bit and then pushing with the bow arm and pulling with the string hand, and see if that helps.
As far as his not seeing the arrow and total concentration on the small spot on your target, I am with him. If you are a gap shooter, you might have trouble with his way of shooting. I don't see the arrow when I have total concentration on the target.
We all are different, so trying to use his exact technique might need some tweaking for you.
The method works for Fred, but there are several of us who go a different direction.
What works for some shooters does not work for others. I could never shoot his style because I aim split vision. No harm in trying out a new method but you will find out quickly if it's right or wrong for you.
QuoteOriginally posted by Scattergun2570:
I am reading his book "Instinctive Shooting",,and have the video to accompany. I have to report that I don`t quite understand what he is trying to get across. I have not been able to shoot well doing what he describes. Can anyone shed some light>?
It's all pretty simple......the best way I can describe it (and I'm plagiarizing here) is by swinging that shooting arm up as if to point at what you want to hit, all the while timing your draw/anchor/release to coincide with the speed of your shooting arm. Those speeds can change, but they all need to match.....
There is a lot more that is more about form, but if I shoot like I just wrote above, I do fine.
I know this sounds like a cop out, but the more you think about it, the harder it is.
I am a set arm kind of guy but to each his own.
I was a much better shot before I read Fred's book and saw his video. I admire the man's story telling and writing ability but I have to stay away from his advise on shooting....maybe it's just me! Now his book on Still Hunting and Stalking :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I learned early in life to listen to advise whether read or verbal and take what I needed from it. I've read all of Freds' book and found little tidbits of things that helped me thru a bunch of years, because what may work for one may not hold true for everyone else,so just take what you can use.
Ive read both of Fred's books. I've been shooting for 4 years now and I've taken what works for me of Fred's style and have adapted it into my own. I use the his bow grip, middle finger anchor, bend at the knees, I've developed my own swing and timing. I also gap shoot so I hold a bit longer at anchor, until everything feels right.
Read his books but don't use his methods, although it did help my shooting some. More specifically, his books helped me to think about the shot process. Most times now if I have a slump I can realize what the problem is and correct it. Before when in a shooting slump if could last for days and I had no idea of the reasons.
Fred's method is really simple. Basically the bow arm and string hand come up at the same time with your bow hand pointing at the target as you hit your anchor point. Remembering to push the bow toward the target. It is simple but form and consistency are as important as with any style of shooting.
Do you shoot a recurve? In his 2nd book he gets into more of the longbow, which is what I shoot... needless to say, I got more from the 2nd book. I did enjoy both and like centaur, I used little bits of what he says and tweaked my own style.
It works for me. Seems the most athletic and natural feeling of any style I've used(to me).
However if I cared about target shooting(and hunting) I would probably use another method..I practice strictly for hunting. It works well for me at hunting distances.
Traditional Archery is fun and games and Archers can shoot any way they want. That said I shoot 3d alone usually but do still shoot in club shoots and some larger ones as well. I don't see high scores recorded by anyone using what is commonly known as the Asbell method and 3d is widely recognized as realistic hunting practice.
QuoteOriginally posted by Roger Norris:
QuoteOriginally posted by Scattergun2570:
I am reading his book "Instinctive Shooting",,and have the video to accompany. I have to report that I don`t quite understand what he is trying to get across. I have not been able to shoot well doing what he describes. Can anyone shed some light>?
It's all pretty simple......the best way I can describe it (and I'm plagiarizing here) is by swinging that shooting arm up as if to point at what you want to hit, all the while timing your draw/anchor/release to coincide with the speed of your shooting arm. Those speeds can change, but they all need to match.....
There is a lot more that is more about form, but if I shoot like I just wrote above, I do fine.
I know this sounds like a cop out, but the more you think about it, the harder it is. [/b]
I am only shooting trad,about 2yrs.. My method was using a set draw..and I used the arrow to get the approximate height of what I want to hit,,draw back while keeping that height and release. I have attained pretty darn good results with this method..but only to about 20yds..after that,,I cannot attaing any consistency/accuracy..so I wanted to try the Asbell method.. But I still cannot understand how it can work to a serious degree of accuracy as he claims.
I have had great luck using his method though I use a slightly different anchor than described in his video. It really works best with snap shooting at least for me anyway. I followed his directions step by step and drastically improved in just a weeks time.
"Reach for it" made sense to me. I think of that phrase every time is shoot.
QuoteOriginally posted by joe skipp:
What works for some shooters does not work for others. I could never shoot his style because I aim split vision. No harm in trying out a new method but you will find out quickly if it's right or wrong for you.
Same here.
I found out long ago that I just didn't have the time it takes to put into it what it takes to successfully shoot G. Fred's style/technique for my purposes.
I instead read Byron Ferguson's book, "Become the Arrow" and applied it to my own style and I took to it much quicker and better.
Do whatever works best for you and go with it and don't worry about what everybody else thinks. ;)
QuoteOriginally posted by ron w:
I was a much better shot before I read Fred's book and saw his video. I admire the man's story telling and writing ability but I have to stay away from his advise on shooting....maybe it's just me! Now his book on Still Hunting and Stalking :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
X2 lol
I think that you need a natural flow to your shooting. Don't force it. Try everything- keep the parts that work for you. Asbel promotes his style because he found it works very well for him. He in a true gentleman and wants to promote successful shooting and hunting.
His way helped me
QuoteOriginally posted by Scattergun2570:
QuoteOriginally posted by Roger Norris:
QuoteOriginally posted by Scattergun2570:
I am reading his book "Instinctive Shooting",,and have the video to accompany. I have to report that I don`t quite understand what he is trying to get across. I have not been able to shoot well doing what he describes. Can anyone shed some light>?
It's all pretty simple......the best way I can describe it (and I'm plagiarizing here) is by swinging that shooting arm up as if to point at what you want to hit, all the while timing your draw/anchor/release to coincide with the speed of your shooting arm. Those speeds can change, but they all need to match.....
There is a lot more that is more about form, but if I shoot like I just wrote above, I do fine.
I know this sounds like a cop out, but the more you think about it, the harder it is. [/b]
I am only shooting trad,about 2yrs.. My method was using a set draw..and I used the arrow to get the approximate height of what I want to hit,,draw back while keeping that height and release. I have attained pretty darn good results with this method..but only to about 20yds..after that,,I cannot attaing any consistency/accuracy..so I wanted to try the Asbell method.. But I still cannot understand how it can work to a serious degree of accuracy as he claims. [/b][/QUOTE
It works as he "claims" (when you say it like that, it makes it sound like he isn't telling the truth).
If you have been shooting 2 years and cannot attain any accuracy, you should probably seek out a good coach or clinic. Pick a method that works for you, and stick with it. I completely understand and respect folks who want to use another method, but am forever amazed at the groups who claim that instinctive doesn't work. It obviously does.
QuoteOriginally posted by Wheels2:
I think that you need a natural flow to your shooting. Don't force it. Try everything- keep the parts that work for you. Asbel promotes his style because he found it works very well for him. He in a true gentleman and wants to promote successful shooting and hunting.
"Natural flow".......absolutely.
When you look at all the greats from our past & present they all shoot their equipment in very very very different ways.
However they ALL have one very important thing in common. The split second before the string cuts loose from their release hand, they are in perfect alignment. (Bow arm, arrow, string arm, shoulders) they are all in parallel with eachother pointing down range to their target.
Much like golf, all the pros have drastically different swings, but one thing remains the same between all if them. The club face is square as it contacts the ball. It doesn't matter how the load the energy into the club, or their back stroke, or their individual follow through method... But that club face is square as it contacts the ball.
I've studied all the greats, and have adapted small bits of styles to my body biology for what works for ME. However I strive to do one thing like all the greats... Make sure at the moment I cut that arrow loose, my aligment is as close to perfect as it can be. It truly doesn't matter how you get there.
If it feels unnatural w/ counter prodoctive results.It's not very instinctive!
Try several styles of shooting till you find one that's natural to you.It maybe a combination of shooting techniques to get what feels the most natural to you.
You might want to check out some videos of Rod Jenkins if you're looking to achieve the best accuracy...
I've read and watched video on Mr. Asbell's style as well as Mr. Jenkins, Mr. Ferguson and Mr. Welch (sp?.) I gleaned something from each of them and incorporated what works for me into my shooting.
I started shooting trad in the early '80s without any real idea what I was doing and failed miserably. I gave up and went back to the wheel bow. Picked up a copy of Asbell's first book and a lighter draw weight recurve and began to get the feel of what I was supposed to be doing. Began to research other styles and found something helpful in each and everyone.
As with any physical/athletic endeavor, proper form is the key element. Practicing that form until it becomes comfortable and natural is what makes you get better.
I tried "spit vision" and it didn't work for me, but it works great for others. I don't care for the feel of shooting 3 under, but I know it works extremely well. One of the very best shooters in the world told me to get rid on my bow quiver if I wanted to shoot up to my full potential. Shot without a quiver for 9 months and never shot as well as I did with a quiver on my bow.
Sorry to ramble, but I hope you see my point. Shoot the style that is most natural to you. It may be one of the styles of the above mention shooters, or it may be a combination of some or all of them. Or it may be a style entirely all your own.
Some of the posts trouble me a bit as they come across that reading someones book or watching their video ruined their shooting. If a person chooses to try another persons style and it doesn't work for them, so be it. BUT there is no one to blame. It didn't work, so move on.
Now...let's go shoot some arrows!!!!!
Mike
QuoteOriginally posted by Roger Norris:
QuoteOriginally posted by Scattergun2570:
QuoteOriginally posted by Roger Norris:
QuoteOriginally posted by Scattergun2570:
I am reading his book "Instinctive Shooting",,and have the video to accompany. I have to report that I don`t quite understand what he is trying to get across. I have not been able to shoot well doing what he describes. Can anyone shed some light>? [/b]
It's all pretty simple......the best way I can describe it (and I'm plagiarizing here) is by swinging that shooting arm up as if to point at what you want to hit, all the while timing your draw/anchor/release to coincide with the speed of your shooting arm. Those speeds can change, but they all need to match.....
There is a lot more that is more about form, but if I shoot like I just wrote above, I do fine.
I know this sounds like a cop out, but the more you think about it, the harder it is. [/b]
I am only shooting trad,about 2yrs.. My method was using a set draw..and I used the arrow to get the approximate height of what I want to hit,,draw back while keeping that height and release. I have attained pretty darn good results with this method..but only to about 20yds..after that,,I cannot attaing any consistency/accuracy..so I wanted to try the Asbell method.. But I still cannot understand how it can work to a serious degree of accuracy as he claims. [/b][/QUOTE
It works as he "claims" (when you say it like that, it makes it sound like he isn't telling the truth).
If you have been shooting 2 years and cannot attain any accuracy, you should probably seek out a good coach or clinic. Pick a method that works for you, and stick with it. I completely understand and respect folks who want to use another method, but am forever amazed at the groups who claim that instinctive doesn't work. It obviously does.
Where did I say he isn`t telling the truth? I said "I" cannot understand it...I did not say it`s not possible.
I live in Europe and I had no choice but to buy the DVD factor accuracy of Rick Wellch. I'm raising my technique and accuracy by 60%
Rick all the explanations were clear and all I have adopted. I'm sorry I do not live in the U.S., I would go for two days with him, it's the best way.
I live in Europe and I had no choice but to buy the DVD factor accuracy of Rick Wellch. I'm raising my technique and accuracy by 60%
Rick all the explanations were clear and all I have adopted. I'm sorry I do not live in the U.S., I would go for two days with him, it's the best way.
I live in Europe and I had no choice but to buy the DVD factor accuracy of Rick Welch. I'm raising my technique and accuracy by 60%
Rick all the explanations were clear and all I have adopted. I'm sorry I do not live in the U.S., I would go for two days with him, it's the best way.
I would recommend Rod Jenkins... or better yet, Rick Welches "The Accuracy Factor".
I never understand why when someone asks about Fred Asbells method, all the Rod Jenkins and Rick Welch guys hijack and say...."no.....try our way...."
If you don't shoot the GFA style, you really should hold your comments for a Jenkins thread.
Fred's shoots a STYLE....form is form...and most don't even know what good form is. Rod Jenkins shoots with the same form...just a different style.
Don't think Fred's style works?....take a look at Howard Hill.
We are all different, and one size don't fit all. You have to find out what style is best for YOU....and NOT listen to all those BROAD BRUSH statements that one way is the highway. Most of those folks never kill anything anyway.
Oh, I liked what someone deleted. "I also can't understand why a bowyer would alienate customers over dissing a shooting style. Just like he did a while back over feather choices". That's pretty close to what I read, and I agree.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Fred's shoots a STYLE....form is form...and most don't even know what good form is. Rod Jenkins shoots with the same form...just a different style.
Don't think Fred's style works?....take a look at Howard Hill.
We are all different, and one size don't fit all. You have to find out what style is best for YOU....and NOT listen to all those BROAD BRUSH statements that one way is the highway. Most of those folks never kill anything anyway.
Wise words.
Well Roger thanks....I'm sorry if it seemed a little harsh....but is get so old when folks argue over style vs form. Good form is good form....and style is style...and way too often the two get miss construed.
Folks can go to the archives and look at HH's style (similar to Asbell)....then come back and argue Howard's style....only AFTER you proved you killed more critters than he did. :campfire:
Isn't G. Fred Asbell in the P&Y Hall of Fame (2010 I think)? Seems something must have been working right.
I personally could not get the hang of Freds style, or Hills, or Schulz. But I was never good at basketball or baseball either, and that's a fact. I honestly WISH I could pull off those smooth, fluid shots, but since I couldn't I adopted more along the Ferguson/welch method.
Now I can poke foam, fir, rollers and flyers all day, I would still like to be able to do it with more fluidity ( I might have made that word up)
QuoteOriginally posted by Roger Norris:
I never understand why when someone asks about Fred Asbells method, all the Rod Jenkins and Rick Welch guys hijack and say...."no.....try our way...."
If you don't shoot the GFA style, you really should hold your comments for a Jenkins thread.
Absolutely correct Roger! Same thing happens on threads where someone asks about one or two SPECIFIC bows and a bunch of folks jump in with "you really ought to try this make or that make." They didn't ask about those so why interject them into the conversation? Seems so many folks want to become the PR agent for their current favorite bowyer. :banghead:
QuoteOriginally posted by Brianlocal3:
I personally could not get the hang of Freds style, or Hills, or Schulz.
No worries...I have a friend Jason Westbrock that shoots totally different than me....form no...style yes...and even different aiming styles....but it works for him...he's killed a lot of critters.
That's what I mean by not accepting the broad brush strokes.
20 some years ago when I decided to bowhunt seriously I got Fred's first book and used it to learn to shoot a recurve accurately. I've developed my own style over the years and most do. Fred's book was a valuable tool to get me going in traditional archery.
There is no need to be nervous,
the man wrote that nothing is understood that there is no progress! so I suggested something that might help, I got the impression he wanted to help.
I apologize to everyone, because I'm the first to mention another style shooting.
But I do not understand what a man should do?
In the next year trying to learn a style that does not fit?
Which may not suit the majority?
You need to explore more options and to find your way!
As a coach, when I go to a coaching clinic, I borrow from the presenters what seems to work for me, and disregard the rest.
I wonder if the same doesn't apply here. Read/watch from those willing to share what's worked for them, and see if some of it can work for you. If you pick up one single good thing, the $20 or whatever spent was well worth it.
When I first went trad in '88, Instinctive Shooting by Asbell was a great help. Do I use everything as he prescribed? No. But he certainly got me on the right track to finding my own best way of shooting. Plus the story about "Old Green" (his hunting rig) is worth the price of admission by itself. :)
Scattergun....how long have you been shooting since receiving his book?...the reason I ask is you said you were 'reading' it...meaning you haven't finished it.
Well said Roger!
I watch a major league baseball team's 9 excellent batters- each hitter has a different form that conforms to his individuality; can't this concept be applicable to archers?
Someone wrote about how Fred's book got him thinking about the "process" of shooting and that gets a big amen from me. I struggled so much at first because I didn't "get" the process. His books helped me a lot. I went to a Black Widow Clinic that Fred conducted and my shooting went up another notch because of a better understanding AND Ken Beck taught some things about arrow's and tuning that improved my accuracy as well. Recently I saw Terry's "form clock". I had my wife stand over me on some steps while I knelt to shoot and she would tell me when I was lined up right according to the form clock. It was amazing how tight my groups got. Traditional archery is such an awesome journey of learning and you never know when the next piece gets put in place!! Never stop learning - never stop asking why?
John....I'm glad the clock worked for you.....I can't tell you how many folks have posted and emailed me the same. That was the soul purpose of posting that info...... great..... stay after it!
:campfire:
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Well Roger thanks....I'm sorry if it seemed a little harsh....but is get so old when folks argue over style vs form. Good for is good form....and style is style...and way too often the two get miss construed.
Folks can go to the archives and look at HH's style (similar to Asbell)....then come back and argue Howard's style....only AFTER you proved you killed more critters than he did.
Not harsh at all....style vs form is an awesome point, almost ALWAYS overlooked in these debates. And frankly, style means nothing without form.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Scattergun....how long have you been shooting since receiving his book?...the reason I ask is you said you were 'reading' it...meaning you haven't finished it.
I read it,,now I am in the process or re-reading it.
Hey Scattergun....with books like that, I re-read them several times. I will keep them on the nightstand, and after an evening shooting session go back and read what I did right vs wrong.
Don't let anyone fool you....lots of guys on here have shot a bow just about all of our lives, and we still make bad shots, have bad days.....keep at it.
QuoteOriginally posted by Roger Norris:
Don't let anyone fool you....lots of guys on here have shot a bow just about all of our lives, and we still make bad shots, have bad days.....keep at it.
Very True!!
QuoteOriginally posted by siwash:
I watch a major league baseball team's 9 excellent batters- each hitter has a different form that conforms to his individuality;
Again...most have the same form.....but a different STYLE.
ALL major league hitters have batting coaches to make sure their form is correct.
Some are just more gifted with hand eye coordination and make contact more based on that.
Once again.....don't confuse form with STYLE. :campfire:
Scatter....you missed the main question....how long have you been shooting a trad bow?
Don't be embarrassed to tell the truth....we want to help you...no mater what style you need for your make up.
Also....Asbell's method is a method of timing which he has profected. This make take longer for you IF this is the style for you.
When I started out....I did the same thing you did, watched Asbell....and Ron LaClair saw me shoot at his place not long after.....
Every so often I'd have an arrow bail out 5 yards from the target and hit 6 inches low....Ron told me I had an issue with timing...other than that I was shooting real well with good form and accuracy. I had not been at it long...
He told me to pre-point with the arrow just a bit low and swing draw from there instead of the waist....and the timing came together almost immediately....now I can pre point or swing from the waist or the ground if need be.....but that pre-point got my timing set....and that's how I shoot normally unless the situation dictates a true swing from the waist.
Terry - Ron told me about you stopping by years ago. He said you were a dang good shooter.
I have been lucky enough to shoot a round of 3D (a couple times) with both Ron and Fred. Think I was nervous? And I'm not saying who won..... :bigsmyl:
Roger...if I remember correctly that was the missing link in my shooting.....once I got that pre point down, I could also swing as I had the timing nailed. Many thanks to Mr Ron for that little advice that made a huge difference. That timing and then I incorporated a double anchor, own my own, to ensure I never lost that timing which also guaranteed proper alignment and proper back tension.
I was off to the races...
From these Videos - I'd say it certainly did work out. I never get tired of watching these two.
Back Yard (http://tradgang.com/videos/tg/m27.wmv)
Various Angles (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terry-2.wmv)
QuoteOriginally posted by Roger Norris:
Hey Scattergun....with books like that, I re-read them several times. I will keep them on the nightstand, and after an evening shooting session go back and read what I did right vs wrong.
Don't let anyone fool you....lots of guys on here have shot a bow just about all of our lives, and we still make bad shots, have bad days.....keep at it.
I always read books more than once. I was not saying it can`t work,or does not work.. I am just having trouble grasping it.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Scatter....you missed the main question....how long have you been shooting a trad bow?
Don't be embarrassed to tell the truth....we want to help you...no mater what style you need for your make up.
Also....Asbell's method is a method of timing which he has profected. This make take longer for you IF this is the style for you.
When I started out....I did the same thing you did, watched Asbell....and Ron LaClair saw me shoot at his place not long after.....
Not long,,less than 2 years.
Try the prepoint method....if that doesn't work out....maybe u should try another style.
There's a lot of info on the shooters forum......check out the form clock thread and do a search for the double anchor...... :campfire:
Instinctive II is a better book. You gotta take what works for you and sometimes throw some of it out. Everyone is different. too many bash Fred thinking he was trying to force his ways on you, he's just saying "this is what works for me" more or less. he makes valid points about a few things. a good bit of his core principles work. i personally would describe my shooting as closest to his idea, not at all exact, i like most others study all the tips to see what i can incorporate, its my own, but it's in the same spirit id say...pick a spot
I have not read either of his books, but read and reread all of his magazine articles in Traditional Bowhunter. I admit I am willing to try anything someone who knows as much as Fred or Terry Green, Ron LaClair,Byron Ferguson or others would suggest, but I also know what works for me. If what ever I try for some reason improves my shooting I incorporate it into my style of shooting. If it doesn't change anything or I shoot worse I don't disregard the information but I just don't continue to try and use that technique. I've been shooting and hunting with traditional bows for seven and a half years. I think the main thing to get from books or this thread even is listen to good advice even try it a time or two but if it doesn't work out don't sweat it there is definately more than one way to do this.
Seems this has gone from being about Fred to being about every one else being right about something or another. Suffice it to say that Fred Asbell can shoot his way AND HE CAN SHOOT YOUR WAY.
In the first book he implies as much. In the last book he states emphatically, over and over, that "push/pull" is imperative to TRUE traditional shooting.
The truth is simple--if you are ever in a situation that only drawing on target, with a stiff arm, is the only way you can pull off the shot; or if the situation arises that push/pull is all you have; or if you find yourself just naturally swinging your arm into position as you draw fluidly, then you are in a zone where "mind over matter" put meat in the freezer. THAT is Fred Asbell's legacy.
I have only been shooting traditional archery since 1990. I do not know much about it. I do know this, there is a big difference in being able to play a guitar and being to play a song on a guitar. Same applies with traditional archery. Asbell is a Clapton, a Stevie Ray,a B.B. King, etc. If there is an issue, it is not with the player, it is that his music does not appeal to you.
Well said Will, Now I can understand that.
Asbell, Ferguson, LaClair, etc...have been good enough with their shooting methods, to Finance a living from traditional archery, something that has obviously eluded me....I pay attention to professionals who know what they are doing and making a living from it...
Yeah...its a shame Roger....trying to help folks learn to shoot better by what ever means and get attacked and belittled like that.....I don't know what gets into folks.
No worries, he sure didn't contribute anything positive to help this guy learn to shoot better.
Thanks for having my back....I pulled both his and your reply just to get the thread back on a positive note.
I'm absolutely SHOCKED and STUNNED that Fred Anderson would come on this site and act like that.
Asbell went to Schulz back in the day to have some shooting advise, and you can see the Hill/Schulz influence in his shooting style.....fluid, well-timed swing and release. Does Asbell's shooting style look exactly like Hill...well, no. but the form is the same. and if you watch old videos of Hill, Schulz and compare with Asbell, you will notice that all those guys could adapt their style to the shot at hand. slow swing, fast swing, big and small, no hold, little hold, whatever was needed.
the instinctive shooting principles that Fred talks about are similar to the conditioned instinct shooting that Schulz talks about. Fred just goes into greater detail about how to do it. Some people understand it and utilize the shooting method better than others. However you dice it up, the system Fred talks about is basically how stickbow hunting shooters have shot for thousands of years, from the Mongol tribes to the Turks, to the Englishmen, to the Indians and the Yumi....it works well now as it did then. :)
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Try the prepoint method....if that doesn't work out....maybe u should try another style.
There's a lot of info on the shooters forum......check out the form clock thread and do a search for the double anchor...... :campfire:
I went to pre-point and that has helped me a lot the past few years. I am trying to work that into a swing up to pre-point this year.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Yeah...its a shame Roger....trying to help folks learn to shoot better by what ever means and get attacked and belittled like that.....I don't know what gets into folks.
No worries, he sure didn't contribute anything positive to help this guy learn to shoot better.
Thanks for having my back....I pulled both his and your reply just to get the thread back on a positive note.
I obviously missed something.. I don`t know who Fred Anderson is,or what he said regarding my thread. In any case,, The whole reason I bought Asbells book was that I wanted to get away from using the arrow to aim at what I want to hit. I want to know how to do it without relying on using the arrow.
Scattergun.....
Email me your address
tarz@tradgang.com
Scattergun....have you had help getting your bow tuned and arrows matched?
Interesting thread....Terry, could you go into the whole "pre point" thing a little more? It sounds like you're describing something I've been playing with...
I have timing issues too....sometimes I just shoot low and thought I was dropping my bow arm on the release...but I really think it has more to do with timing...
Hopefully this will also help Scattergun...
QuoteOriginally posted by Roger Norris:
Scattergun....have you had help getting your bow tuned and arrows matched?
sent
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Scattergun.....
Email me your address
tarz@tradgang.com
sent
QuoteOriginally posted by Roger Norris:
Scattergun....have you had help getting your bow tuned and arrows matched?
Someone here used Stus calc to get me close.
Stus calculator works for sure. Good.
One thing that I tell newer guys...and understand I LOVE cedar arrows....shoot aluminum's that are matched to your bow for awhile. You are working on your form....until you have it down, plugging in a variable like a wood arrow can really mess with you.
I have known guys who thought they were bad shots, until they ditched the woodies and tried some aluminum or carbon.
I can shed some light; shoot like yourself, do what's comfortable, and get good at it. No two shoulder joints are the same, no two hands are the same, no two anchor points are the same. Don't try to shoot like him, or me or any one else.
QuoteOriginally posted by Roger Norris:
Stus calculator works for sure. Good.
One thing that I tell newer guys...and understand I LOVE cedar arrows....shoot aluminum's that are matched to your bow for awhile. You are working on your form....until you have it down, plugging in a variable like a wood arrow can really mess with you.
I have known guys who thought they were bad shots, until they ditched the woodies and tried some aluminum or carbon.
"Any bow good bow, good arrow heap much work"
I agree Roger. I can't outshoot good wood arrows. However as far as tuning, Easton Axis carbons seem to get me the most universal good flight. If I've dialed in my wood arrows (which with 45 years of traditional experience is much easier to get to quickly), I can shoot the same. But as you say, newcomers are probably better served with a synthetic arrow (and I say carbon) when starting out. They're more durable, not subject to straightening needs, ect. and the newcomer is better off focusing on shooting form instead of maintaining arrows.
QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Mecredy:
I can shed some light; shoot like yourself, do what's comfortable, and get good at it. No two shoulder joints are the same, no two hands are the same, no two anchor points are the same. Don't try to shoot like him, or me or any one else.
:thumbsup:
I have seen Terry post numerous times to get as close to the perfect alignment (clock example) based on your body type (no two alike), establish a consistent double anchor that allows you to replicate that alignment and then practice until it becomes second nature. Different styles folks use can make the way they shoot look very different but I bet all consistently good shooters have all three of these in common if you dissect the style they use. Those are the keys to good, consistent shooting imo. I ain't there yet, but implementing the above advice from this site has moved me much further down the road than I was in the past.
QuoteOriginally posted by Roger Norris:
Stus calculator works for sure. Good.
One thing that I tell newer guys...and understand I LOVE cedar arrows....shoot aluminum's that are matched to your bow for awhile. You are working on your form....until you have it down, plugging in a variable like a wood arrow can really mess with you.
I have known guys who thought they were bad shots, until they ditched the woodies and tried some aluminum or carbon.
Aluminum is all I shoot,,Legacy 1916`s. I don`t shoot bad at all.. I just don`t like the method I use. Its only accurate to maybe 20yds.
Got it Scatter....sending you a video of proper alignment...."good form" which can be use with any style and various shooting positions.
Here's the clock Greg Clark was talking about...and the thread on the shooter form forum....
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/form2clock3.JPG)
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Link to Form Clock Thread...Click Here (http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=003278;p=1)
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Great book, though it was quite a distraction while we were printing it. Thanks Fred for keeping it made in the USA!
The clock rocks! Good stuff!
Thanks Roger....I've had more emails about that thread than posts....and I tickles me to see folks improve....I want success from everyone....that makes us all look better, and gets more stories on the PowWow....and memories for a lifetime for folks.
Thanks..... :campfire:
Great thread that on Terry...
I can't add anything but am soaking up as much as possible.
Thanks for the good debate and information all.
I'm still disturbed over the post by Fred Anderson. Is there that much hatred for folks that don't shoot the same way as others? Is it just jealousy? For those of you that seem to want to bash Asbell, do you feel the same way towards Howard Hill? He shot almost the same way except he didn't necessarily bend his knees. Or, is it that you just wish you were as famous as Howard and are taking it out on Asbell?
My thought exactly Skates!
Well, now the more I think about it, maybe he also doesn't like younger people that are successful as it was directed also at Terry. He posted like Terry was some 'whipper snapper' so maybe he's jealous of younger men that are killing more stuff than him.
I just can't believe how disrespectful he was toward both Fred and Terry. It really speaks volumes about his character to me. I'll never ready anything else he gets published I can tell you that. He's tainted everything I've ever read that he wrote. Envy and Egos ruin many a man.
Fred's "Instinctive Shooting II" is my bible when it comes to shooting the longbow, and the longbow is pretty much all I shoot. When I get in a shooting funk, I just review what Fred has to say and head back out to the range. Within a few targets, I'm back where I want to be. It works for me, but it is not the answer for everyone. Pick your poison, relax, enjoy and have fun. Thanks to Fred, Terry and others who do their best to promote traditional archery in a positive way. :campfire:
Nate.....
There were no 'posts' pulled, just one outburst by Fred Anderson. Out of no where, and it was blatant disrespect. And Roger's post was quoting his and telling he was way out of line.
We've given you enough rope.....and you finally hung yourself. Making comments on something you didn't even see, your own words, and poking me in the eye just for good measure.
I have grown to have very little tolerance for in your face disgrace. This sport deserves better. Grown men acting like 8th graders. It has also become very obvious to me over the years of who is really into this for the actual hunting, comradery, and friendships, and who is not. It really saddens me.
Who would dream something as simple and graceful as Traditional Archery get so ugly?
Terry, I give you a ton of credit for keeping this a civil place.
As an aside....I had a guy actually threaten to come find me at Compton when I stuck up for Fred Asbell's style on another site.....he never showed.
I suppose it just goes to show there are knuckleheads in all walks of life. :knothead:
Yeah Roger....I've been threatened a few times also :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I wasn't shocked that someone posted something like that as folks have fallen on their sword plenty of times here. Like I told you on the phone, I didn't even know who it was when I pulled it. Just figured it was someone dive bombing as they had a low post count. Then later I went and looked at who it was and then I too was shocked. :( :( :(
The moderators on TG do an excellent job of keeping this site civil. It never ceases to amaze me, the unprofessional, juvenile, and rude comments made on the other site. I never go there anymore, I get enough of that kind of behavior in real life.
A personal rant: I have noticed(when I still visted that site) that a lot of TG members would post the same question on their site under a different "handle" . Why? (IMHO), You are either loyal to TG or not, you need to decide whether you are going to support this site or the one that contantly engages in pi%%ing matches.
Been shooting traditional since 1960 I was eight... Fred's Book helped my shooting and made me more consistent. Even an old dog can learn new tricks if he's open minded.
I enjoyed the stories also.
Yes....Asbell's ground hunting book is great.
I've enjoyed all of G.Fred's writings over the years..
Also really liked the bows he turned out when he was Colorado. I had several of the curved bed recurves and thought they were one of the best.
Twenty five or thirty years ago he wrote many articles about hunting mulies. I talked with him one the phone about hunting with Jay Versah (sp) of Colorado Elite. A couple of pals and I booked a hunt and due to unforseen circumstances I had to drop out.. Something I've always regretted.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Yes....Asbell's ground hunting book is great.
My favorite!
Ok. We are officially neck deep in the weeds now. Does anyone even remember what this thread was about?
I have Fred's second and last book. Both are great reads and I learn something new each time I refer back to them. It' a lot for me to get into my head and keep it there.
Has anyone apologized to a past President of the Pope and Young Club and true elite figure in our sport for dragging his name through the guff in association with this thread. Seems that Fred Asbell has earned a hallowed place in traditional archery. I notice he did not bother to offer any retort in his own defense. That probably says something about all of us and even more about him.
Sorry, Mr. Asbell. You are the standard to which the majority of us will never measure up. Thank you for a life well lived in behalf of a sport that defines the finest in those that participate in it. No matter the appearance here, we ARE none-the-less indebted to you.
Make sure your anchor is rock solid and consistent... Most styles will work if your fundamentals are correct.
Fred is a member/sponsor here.
I do wonder why he never posts on here though. :dunno:
Fred's books taught me to shoot. I have been through some TP but it wasn't his teaching it was me ignoring some of what he said.
G. Fred Asbells' book and video have a lot to do with shooting well... They helped me when I started this Trad stuff... As you go on you will learn your own style and understand what works and dosen't work for you...
... mike ...
QuoteOriginally posted by ishoot4thrills:
Fred is a member/sponsor here.
I do wonder why he never posts on here though. :dunno:
Because he is probably busy doing important things, like running a business, conducting seminars, writing articles, attending shoots, hunting, and doing things to promote archery.
It always amazes me that his threads get such polarized and hostile comments....I have attended shoots where when you mention his name and you hear accusations that his style ruined someone's shooting...last time I checked we all have inherent free will....if his style does not work, we are free to, and encouraged to try something different...there is no place where he has ever stated his style is the only one....just one that works for him, and he has more dead critters on his wall than many of his detractors combined!
His books are still best sellers, his booth at trad shoots are always crowded, his seminars are popular, and sponsored by Black Widow,so someone must be using and liking his style. He is in the ARCHERY Hall of Fame, and through Compton and the Pope and Young Club, he has done more to promote archery that anyone I can think of.
I do not use his style exclusively...I tend to read and watch and study all styles, and pick and choose what works for MY STYLE....I do not follow any particular style.....
You asked why Mr. Asbell does not post on forums and threads....in one word....Intelligence!
Lee
It seems there are people who delight in trying to tear down those who achieve or who simply have a different way of looking at or doing things. That is the price of putting yourself out in the public eye unfortunately. I don't shoot Fred's style, but I greatly admire the man. It was my privilege to help Fred and Teresa a little at the Baltimore shoot this year setting up their booth. I got there early and had nothing much to do and saw them setting up so I offered a hand in putting up the two pop-up shelters they had and unloading the truck. Fred did not know me from Adam's off ox but treated me like an old friend. I took the opportunity to thank him for his enormous contribution to our sport. See I'm an old guy now--been in this thing we now call "traditional" archery since the 50s. I remember when it was about dead--most of the major manufacturers had switched their attention to compound production and the few that still made recurves let quality slip pretty much.
Then low and behold, an ad showed up in Bowhunter magazine--a guy was building recurves! Imagine that--a fellow named Asbell. The first brochure I got was just a photo copy one typed page with a pencil drawing of the bow! Cost was $150. That step and his articles in the magazine where he was hunting (and killing) stuff with his recurve encouraged those of us trying to hang on to what we loved. He also fanned the flickering flame along with a few others that has now become a glowing camp fire once again around which lots of us gather. I just wanted to thank him for his part in that.
If you don't care for his methods that's fine. He won't mind, but he will be real civil to you and deserves nothing less in return.
Well, hopefully, 'ol Fred has the same attitude as the Hollywood actress who told the newspaper reporter, "I don't care what you say about me, just be sure you spell my name right!" I'm sure that if there's anyone on Trad Gang who hasn't already heard about Fred, they have now, and are probably curious enough to want to find out what he has to say!
QuoteOriginally posted by ishoot4thrills:
Fred is a member/sponsor here.
I do wonder why he never posts on here though. :dunno:
He posted yesterday in this thread:
"Michigan Longbow Association Heading West"
I have met Fred a couple of times and it's all his fault that I try to shoot instinctive...lol
He and I had a very long conversation about baseball and archery, he convinced me that I could live without sight pins and peep sights.
I've never looked back....lol Some would say that there are times when I shoot it's as if I weren't looking at all..lol
God bless,Mudd
PS: Folks just don't come much better than Fred and Teresa.
This is cool stuff about different styles. When I first began to shoot a stickbow a fella named Jim Vaness taught me to shoot or should I say showed me "his" basics. That name may sound like you have heard if you have read Freds Books. He is the Guy Fred talks about in his arrow making chapter. Small world. After that I became hungry for all things stickbow and shot Jim/Freds way for years.Finally got hold of the John Shulz movie and continued to improve my style from these. fast forward..
A couple of years ago I tried the Rick Welch style of shooting. My buddy Chris Spikes shoots this way and he is the best shot I`ve seen in real life.Chris has perfect form...is it his perfect form or style that makes him a good shot? After a commitment to this style I could /can shoot really good compared to my past. I do not like the feel of the bow three under and on a straight end bow it makes it feel really harsh to ME. I like to shoot straight end bows a lot.
I just got a new to me Northern Mist shelton. It is a string follow Hill Style bow. I first shot it at 20 yards three under Welch style and the arrows are grouped like they were shot with sights from a compound but the bow had more handshock than I like.Again at 20 Yards with no practice shots I put the old glove on ...grabbed the string split finger..I do sort of a half swing draw sort of like Terry was talking about with the point maybe a foot below target at 20 yards as I begin my slow swing up and shoot three arrows and the group is as good as those shot three under minus one arrow that deflected when it busted a nock from one in the target.
Here is a summary from all my jiberish... No matter what style you choose they will work if you perfect them and hold FORM. form is not a style it is holding your style perfectly.My learnings from this mornings shoot out is I can shoot both ways purty doggone good at hunting ranges but love the feel of the bow shot split so I will probably revert back to split finger and a cross of Fred/Hill/Shulz/Vaness/ME. Almost a sure promise of bloody arrows if I hold FORM. RC
I have been at this sport for 45 years or so. I have read Fred Asbell's books and he has contributed greatly to this sport. Do I agree with everything he says, no, no more than I agree with everything anybody writes, but I respect him. Terry hit it on the head, form is form and style is style. I personally use what works for me which is a bit of a lot of different styles but one thing I strive for is consistant form and when I achive it, I am spot on but when I do not I am not. That is what keeps most of us at it, striving to be better.
Well stated Danny!
Whatever I do I need to be as consistent as my bow.
The bow is a tool and if shot from a machine it will produce the same results almost flawlessly therefore any errant arrows I can and do cause I need to take the blame for them.
I have made so many mistakes that I have written an imaginary book(inside my head), now instead of telling my friends what I did wrong I simply refer them to chapter,paragraph and line number in the book of mistakes...lol
God bless,Mudd
This thread got me to jonsing to read one of his books so I ordered Stalking and Stillhunting. I have enjoyed his articles in mags over the years.
No matter what we think about someone's method or style, even if it's finding out it isn't for you, well, you've learned something. Just my penny's worth..., .
QuoteOriginally posted by WhiteBeard121:
This thread got me to jonsing to read one of his books so I ordered Stalking and Stillhunting. I have enjoyed his articles in mags over the years.
No matter what we think about someone's method or style, even if it's finding out it isn't for you, well, you've learned something. Just my penny's worth..., .
Just finished the Stalking and Still-Hunting book. Very good, really enjoyed it. Get it. Have appreciated his writing for years
Eric
I first met Fred Asbell and Roger Norris on a hunt in the U.P. with Ron LaClair. Steve Turay dropped in as well. Fred, Ron and Steve have all done an immense amount of promotion and training of our current ranks of traditional archers. All are extremely good shots but each of them shoots differently. All of them are well versed in shooting techniques and styles. One of the most enjoyable things about traditional archery is the campfire/woodstove and the conversations that go with it. Talking with Fred, Ron and Steve around the woodstove is priceless. It would behoove us to remember we're sitting around a virtual campfire here and keep that spirit of respect and communication in mind. :campfire:
quote:
Originally posted by Ray Lyon:
I first met Fred Asbell and Roger Norris on a hunt in the U.P. with Ron LaClair. Steve Turay dropped in as well. Fred, Ron and Steve have all done an immense amount of promotion and training of our current ranks of traditional archers. All are extremely good shots but each of them shoots differently. All of them are well versed in shooting techniques and styles. One of the most enjoyable things about traditional archery is the campfire/woodstove and the conversations that go with it. Talking with Fred, Ron and Steve around the woodstove is priceless. It would behoove us to remember we're sitting around a virtual campfire here and keep that spirit of respect and communication in mind. :thumbsup:
Ray
Point gotten across with a lot of CLASS
Been out of town...glad to see this thread continue on a positive note....
:campfire:
quote:
Originally posted by Terry Green:
Been out of town...glad to see this thread continue on a positive note....
:thumbsup:
Ok, mr. Asbell has assisted in getting some new people into this great sport, and his stalking books are great. We need to focus on helping this guy shoot. A great many of us have been dong this for longtime, and have are own way of doing the shot (usually because we are all built different). Let's break it down.
First, we need to focus on the one thing I believe we all can agree is the whole enchilada, the form. A great many of us know, that learning to "swing" draw from the begining can add to the challenge and frustraion, so how to we minimize it. We break it down.
Stand 6-10 yards from backstop, raise the bow, draw straight back and hit anchor, hold and squeeze back muscles (rhomboids)and with the bak muscle (push/pull) we draw the fingers off the string staight back (release). Once we in grain the "feel" of the shot, we can add more dynamics to it.
Ok, we have shot every day or every other with 10-25 shots using one arrow, are form is feeling pretty solid, now we add a dynamic beginning.
ONLY AFTER WE SPENT A WEEK OR TWO IN GRAINING FORM! WE stand at 10 yards, with bow on are side, we slowly raise the bow up, as we draw with equal speed, once the arrow is level to ground and the draw is roughly halfway to anchor point, we "pre-aim" (this is why we practice the form, at this point it is the same as the weeks before). We continue the draw staight back, to anchor and let the shot happen.
We want to stand close, to not have any worries. We want the arrow's to be level to ground, to ensure good form (aiming at a block on ground causes some to lean into shot and mess's form up). Now we repeat this slow draw into the "pre-aim" and continue back, until it is in grained. Roughly about a month of shooting. At this point you will be amazed at how good you shoot. AS long as you "pre-aim", get bow up (steady), arrow drawing straight back, you should be "cutting feathers" in no time. From this point, you will focus on more accuracy and move back. The speed of "drawing", will come with alot more arrow's shot. Remember this, "Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast"! Fast draw comes with time and arrows shot! Better to be slow and smooth and hit your mark, than fast and miss.
Hi
My nickel here is, that barebow shooting in my opinion is VERY dependable of your personal/physical/even personality matters. My good is your bad perhaps and vice versa. To me for example three under draw has never worked (about 20 years recurve/longbow shooting behind and pretty much all kind of techniques tried here :) ) and still many people enjoy shooting that way. I wonder how they can :D :D
And what comes to mr. Asbell - to me he is a living legend, whose writings have been very important when I have learned to shoot with bow and arrow - my style is not exactly his, but his detailet writings have been enjoyable and informative so much so, that I read and re read his writings and find usually a new pointer I have missed/forgotten previously.
I'd like to thank everyone that emailed me before and during my vacation for their support of keeping this thread civil.
Also, I'd like to thank all those that bought "The Bowhunters of Tradgang.com" DVD as a result of this thread.