Since I have been on TG there has been a countless number of threads about what arrow to use for elk. What never ceases to amaze me are the responses to these questions. I am by no means an authority on the engineering of an arrow. I have seen a lot of elk on the ground though, some of them mine most others. I have taken elk with 430gr arrows out of 57lbs bows and elk with 600 grain arrows from the same weight bow. I will pass on a few of my thoughts from what I have witnessed in person.
There are so many schools of thought on what it takes to kill an elk. When I first joined tradgang and described my set-up to the crowd I was told I would never be able to kill an elk with what I shoot. Never I was told. At that time I was shooting a Palmer 57@28 and gold tip arrows with a Magnus stinger. No added weight just a sharp head on an arrow that flew straight.
Here are just two of the elk I took with that set up.
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii51/rburtis1/04burtis2.jpg) (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/rburtis1/media/04burtis2.jpg.html)
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii51/rburtis1/06burtis1.jpg) (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/rburtis1/media/06burtis1.jpg.html)
Let's talk about learning. I did some from this set-up over time, even though I shot through both of these elk. I did pay attention to the heavier arrow arguments and chose to test out some new combinations. What I came up with was a 600gr skinny FMJ axis with the stinger head and 100gr brass insert. On a various number of mediums it showed an improvement in penetration. So I took it hunting.
This bull was taken with that arrow. It was a horrible shot due to an unforeseen situation with the wind. The 31.25 inch arrow buried to the knock through bone and muscle. I firmly believe the heavier arrow was the difference between kill and wound on this bull.
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii51/rburtis1/DSCN0028.jpg) (http://s261.photobucket.com/user/rburtis1/media/DSCN0028.jpg.html)
I have held close to that arrow design and weight since then and it continues to perform over and over again. I have seen elk killed with many combinations of arrows, broadheads, bow weights and draw lengths. The bottom line is this in my opinion.
It is no doubt wise to do everything you can to optimize your set-up, draw the most weight you can comfortably shoot well, shoot an arrow that is of reasonable weight for the bow your shooting i.e. 9-11 gpp, TUNE TUNE TUNE a poorly tuned arrow no matter the weight will not penetrate worth a darn compared to an identical well-tuned arrow, use a quality head and get it sharp.
I have found in my time whether guiding hunters, being with friends or my own experience the most important factor in successful hunting is confidence in your gear. Spend the time with your bow to be confident in what it can do and that you and the bow can do it together. It doesn't take some insanely heavy arrow or 80lb draw. However, you must be smart in all hunting about your set-up and do the research to get the most out of your bow with what you're able to do. You owe that to the game you pursue.
There will no doubt be someone or many someones who have been on one guided hunt and now know everything about what it takes and those who are keyboard hunters and have never killed an elk and they can and will tell you everything you are doing wrong. Don't let the nay sayer destroy your confidence in the set-up that works for you. I have seen this so much over the past two years it truly boggles my mind.
Randy,
I think you and I should do a side by Comparison of your set up and my set up with footed woodies and the 2 blade single bevel in true elk hunting conditions. Let me know when and where to meet you this fall.
:) sw
Excellent Post! :clapper:
QuoteIt is no doubt wise to do everything you can to optimize your set-up, draw the most weight you can comfortably shoot well, shoot an arrow that is of reasonable weight for the bow your shooting i.e. 9-11 gpp, TUNE TUNE TUNE a poorly tuned arrow no matter the weight will not penetrate worth a darn compared to an identical well-tuned arrow, use a quality head and get it sharp.
My sentiments exactly. That statement covers 99% of all bowhunting equipment questions.
9-11 gpp, TUNE, TUNE, TUNE, and a SHARP quality head!
Randy .. Thanks for sharing!!!
Steve
I'm with you on the arrow setup. A good solid combination without going to extremes, proper tuning and the confidence to use it will always be best.
Glad you brought this up.
You said it all in a nutshell,no truer words have yet been written.Accuracy,razor sharp heads and shot placement is paramount.Well said.
I couldn't agree with you more. Widow
With the perfect hit, in the ribs, without hitting ribs, you could probably put an arrow through an elk with a 30 lb. bow. But I like extra insurance. I shoot 700 grain arrows, two blade tips,and 55-60 lbs. out of a highly efficient bow. My draw is also 30 inches. So far I have killed three elk where I needed the extra penetration. The other fifteen died without needing the extra penetration. Gary
Ok now you've got your "perfect" arrow setup. Time to shoot, shoot, and shoot! I like to shoot a few arrows everyday. I'll walk out back and try and visualize an elk or deer where the target is and think to myself..."make this one count!" Just kind of preps me for that moment so I do my part.
Randy and others, good stuff!
Well said!
There is no substitute for being able to shoot good. I agree with Randy, you need the right equipment including arrows. However, unless you can put the arrow where it needs to go - heavy or light arrow will only wound the animal. Practice, Practice, Practice - attend 3D shoots. Don't worry about the score rings as some are not where they belong. Pick a spot and put the arrow there. Be able to handle your bow and shooting under pressure.
Excellent post, a good continuation of our private message discussion. Now is the time for me to obsess about gear. By July 1 I'll have it dialed in and practice religiously though truth be told I'm sure any of the arrows I have tuned should be fine.
Finding game and getting close enough for a shot have always proved more troublesome then the lethality of my gear! ;)
Gene you are exactly right. I was just getting at the gear thing. I give much credit to Gene as he has helped me become a better shooter over the years I have known him.
Excellent Post!
I have a lot of confidence in these..............
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q291/bjornweb/ElkArrows-2.jpg) (http://s139.photobucket.com/user/bjornweb/media/ElkArrows-2.jpg.html)
Killed a cow 2 years ago-heard the crash!
11/32 doug fir with an Abowyer brown bear up front; 650 gn total wt.
Love your post Randy, thank you. Well said! Hard to argue with your success! A "BALANCED" setup is key!
I'm comfortable with 575 - 675+ grain arrow, 25% plus FoC, skinny carbon arrow tuned PERFECTLY to a mid fifties weight bow with any of the outstanding "traditional COC BH's" we have available to us.
There are many, really great possibilities.
Kris
Thanks for some great advice.
So is 37 pounds enough for Elk?.................................. :biglaugh: Sorry, I couldn't resist
Being convinced of one's own knowledge closes many doors.
Building rigid confidence as predicated on one's own experience is priceless.
>>>Nice and valued post - thank you<<<
Randy, Well said!
Personally, I put more emphasis a well tuned arrow then its weight. Elk have fallen to my arrows that weighed as little as 460, and as much as 750 grains. That said, I now prefer wood arrows in the 600-650 grain range. However, most important is the ability to put the arrow in the correct place at the critical time.
Well said
Very well stated, Randy! I agree with everything in your post, especially the part about being well tuned and having confidence in your equipment.
I have been elk hunting 3 times and have yet to get a shot at an elk (I have about convinced myself also, that any legal elk that I can get in front of me is going to get shot). I do however, have complete confidence in my set-up and have no doubt that it will do the job if I do mine!
Bisch
You shot through 2 elks with a 430 gr arrow. That was just 7.5 gpp. Are you getting much better penetration on elk with the 10.5 gpp arrows?
Top post Randy ! So very very true mate. I also agree with what someone else mentioned in regards to practice...shoot shoot shoot!
ak.
The heavy arrow does perform better stranger
Great post, I have not responded to most elk set up posts because did not agree with most that was posted.
But you hit it on the head, I have not shot a lot of elk but have shot 14 bulls over the years and most with around 57# and 500 to 600gr arrows and 4bld heads. tuned sharp and practice is the most important.
Awesome post !!!!!!!
Randy, Not saying this lightly , This is probably the best post I have ever read on any sight. It is perfect, to the point and accurate in every point. I love that you have backed it up with your experience and great pictures. It establishes credibility and is sooooo interesting. You have not only established a great elk arrow but you have gone further in that after you describe it and how you got it the need for tuning and practice. I have been a pro guide and hunted all my long life and when you say that confidence is of the utmost importance I say Amen Bro. Most animals are missed or wounded due to second guessing and lack of confidence in the equipment and in the man .
God bless you and thanks again for a fantastic Read. Steve
I know Randy personally and here in the site,I have full respect of this young man and of great experience and dedication he has developed over the seasons.
I have 23 elk seasons under my belt but always something to learn from him. Any experienced elk hunter will agree with what Randy stated on his post. My medicine for elk is almost the same he is using.
Agree,
Great confidence in equiptment always trumps great opions from others.
As a eastern whitetail hunter.Elk are much more tempting to stretch your range.Hunting mostly from the ground and a very large kill zone in comparison to a deer.Bowhunters(myself included)see shooting a elk out to 30 yrds is simular in target reference as a deer at 20yrds.This can be trouble not only w/out confidence but far more horsepower is needed.
QuoteOriginally posted by wixwood:
Randy,
I think you and I should do a side by Comparison of your set up and my set up with footed woodies and the 2 blade single bevel in true elk hunting conditions. Let me know when and where to meet you this fall.
:) sw
You have a pretty good idea there Steve. :)
Well put Randy! I have never hunted elk at all seen a few in CO and north AR and would love to get a chance at one. I think what you said is spot on not just for elk but any animal (provided some like elephants and such are special cases). A well tuned moderately heavy arrow and sharp head is bad medicine for any animal.
Accurate and to the point.. And the results speak for themselves.
can't stress enough the importance of a well tuned arrow and razor sharp head, and accuracy. Got to get the bread and butter basic's well taken care of before you get to carried away with the rest.
I have to sometimes sit back and wonder why so often advice is taken from some that have just not hunted but are experts "behind the keyboard"...sometimes I think some like the IDEA over the RESULT. :dunno:
Have really enjoyed your Elk Articles Randy... got me inspired to get across the pond and try kill a nice one.
3months and ticking? mmm enjoy guys.. ill been there next year!
I think for the most part guys can separate the difference in advice from someone who read about it once or someone who has dragged their rear up and over many a steep pass at 4am in the morning but im sure it confuses those seeking info with no background or even rudimentary experience in the woods but alas it is the way of the world. Even many of the so called "pro" hunters im sure would struggle without hunting the livestock on their private ranch "hitlists" and its really a great thing to have guys that have time on the ground advice that are willing to share it on this site, great post by the author and spot on from my side of the keyboard.
Great post Randy. I totally agree about the well tuned arrow. The shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line.
Randy / experienced others:
What have you experienced where an appropriate/great set-up failed and what can we learn? We hear about single bevels superior cutting capability orheavy bone penetration. Ditto 3 blades and wwiiddee heads for best bloodtrails. EFOC/UEFOC for ultimate momentum/gr.wt. etc.
THIS IS NOT A PICK-APART ACTIVITY......
Randy / experienced others:
What have you experienced where an appropriate/great set-up failed and what can we learn? We hear about single bevels' superior cutting capability or heavy bone penetration. Ditto 3 blades and wwiiddee heads for best bloodtrails. EFOC/UEFOC for ultimate momentum/gr.wt. etc.
THIS IS NOT A PICK-APART ACTIVITY......
My - our interest should include sharing when what's "right" still goes wrong.
What have you seen. It is easy to get it right and believe our set-up is right-on and then one day it isn't. The animal moved, the wind, a branch and I wonder IF ONLY.........
Yes we all make mistakes. Can we learn by sharing some?
I have killed some trees. Somehow I concentrate on the animal so hard that I miss (hit) seeing the tree between me and the critter. First time was on a real dandy bull. I killed an aspen that was about and inch thick. Dead centered it in the kill zone. Second time I killed a 6 inch fir. Don't know how I did not see that one. The bull was slowly walking in and I thunked the tree. He never even paid any attention. Just kept on walking . He made the mistake of stopping in front of me with a second arrow on my bow at 10 yards. That doesn't happen often. I left the arrowhead in the tree for a memorial and visit it everytime I am in the area. It has disappeared now but the scar is still there along with the memory.
God bless you all, Steve
i never killed an elk, never shot at one, and never hunted that species of game. that's a bucket list item, for sure!
seems to me, as randy has so well presented, that common sense is all that matters with arrow selection ... as it should be any time we pick up bow and arrow with killing in mind.
all the sensible things we need to consider for a specific hunt applies, with much aforethought about the prey in question.
the rest is up to each of us to think and act accordingly, and responsibly.
good post randy, thanx. :thumbsup:
I would guess the bloody one you pick out of the dirt with a trembling hand.
TTT
No trace asked about non ideal outcomes. I have seen several. Enough to scare me regarding elk and arrow setups. I have been a part of 15 bow killed elk, half mine and half a partners... I have also seen several lost. Some thoughts.
1) I saw an eclipse broadhead bend to a near ninety degree angle after hitting a scapula
2) I sharpened an el grande grizzly with a wheel and changed the temper. I struck a great elk in the boiler room and got 4 incheds of penetration. After looking at the broadhead, the edge looked like a tuna can curl from rib contact. The head acted like a barb instead of a spear.
3) I have seen a gold tip 35-55 have the insert shoved in after a rib hit. Luckily that elk hit was still lethal. It did scare me and I started sleeving my arrows after that. (still shoot gold tips and love them).
3) I saw an old woodsman literally crumple on a good hit resulting in again a lost bull. Several of my hunting buddies have seen the same. This was a decade ago and the new woodsmans I think are better. However we still all shoot two blades.
Hope that helps
Jeff
Jeff has a point here. Every set-up has the potential to fail.
What was the shot angle with #1
This is great information, coming from someone who has actually shot quite a few elk.
What a broad sprectrum this is...
I have seen a bull at 7 yards shot with a 10 grain/lb arrow with nearly 20% FOC out of a recurve shooting 190ish fps that only penetrated 12-15 inches. (shot was lethal and the bull went 40yds) 3 blade broadhead
I also saw an 8 grains/lb arrow with aprox 10% FOC out of a black widow drawn to only 26-27 inches (making it about 45 lbs) completely pass thru a bull (spike) at about 12 yds and stick in the dirt behind (2 blade broadhead) (shot was lethal and the bull went 50 yds)
Both arrows shot well from each setup both arrows were placed for double lung hits and neither centered a rib going in. The first bow setup mentioned could have had better arrow flight...it was not what I would call perfect "spinning ball of feathers" flight but it was not bad either.
Some of the things I can think of that would have hindered the first setup was the arrow flight, how close the bull was (arrow may not have fully straightened out by impact) and the bull was tense and in "spring loaded ready to bolt" mode...actually started to leave the scene quickly as the bow went off. Muscles on an elk being tensed and exploding at impact can certainly hurt penetration.
The second elk was far more calm at the shot.
As stated above...get the best formula you can with your setup...well tuned, sharp head and put it where it needs to be!
That is a very good post. Thanks.
Randy,
It was my buddy Brett's shot. The bull was about 15 yards. It was about 6 seasons ago.
He was shooting a 55# Hill style longbow at the time. I was calling and saw the shot, but from a distance and at an angle. It looked almost perfect from my viewpoint. However, Brett said it was forward and in the shoulder V. We figured he hit the junction knuckle or the base of the scapula. Almost no penetration and a layed over eclipse BH. It was pretty interesting.
Regarding the angle the animal was broadside at the shot, but wheeling away by the time the arrow got there. As you know they can flat get out when they jump. Oh, and it was the double bevel teflon eclipse if that matters.
Jeff
Theory vs practice, thanks for a great post and some reasoned responses. Maturely handled....
This comes to mind :laughing: :shaka:
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/cjohntalk/index.jpg) (http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/cjohntalk/media/index.jpg.html)
Love your posts Randy, keep them up.
Admittedly, I shoot a 75+# bow. But that's mostly just cause I want to. I shot several bulls for a few years in a row, awhile ago, with a 55# RD home made job, which more than did the trick. I actually just prefer Monster treessharks and maybe snuffers, as well as the satisfying draw of a heavier pull while hunting. Works for me.
Thanks again for your post.
Just to answer the point of the post, this is an elk arrow:
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn33/elkbreath/IMG_0183.jpg)
but then again, so is this...
(http://imageshack.us/a/img191/2479/20120920115724.jpg)
I'd say whatever route you take that gets you to this point is the right one. Shoot straight and sharp!
Right on Dan
I know this may be a little off topic; it seems many believe that because they are Elk and because it is in the West that longer shots are in order. Compared to deer Elk are easier to stalk and there is no need to take shots that are less than ideal. Once you find 'em you can get amongst 'em.
This needs to come back to the top. A lot of us are preparing right now. Great insight by a great elk hunter :)
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
... Compared to deer Elk are easier to stalk...
Some elk are maybe- when they are full rut and standing around watching other elk go nuts. I have hunted more than a few that were just as difficult to stalk as the whitetails I hunted back in Maine.
Just sayin, so some neophite doesn't get the idea elk success is somehow always easier.
Joshua
Randy,
Great advice. Thanks for your insights.
Dennis
Great topic.
It brought a smile to see what has been working for you. I have been playing with different arrow/weight/broadhead combinations over the past year. I settled on the exact arrow set up you described.
I hope to see how it performs on an elk this year.
QuoteOriginally posted by jhg:
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
... Compared to deer Elk are easier to stalk...
Some elk are maybe- when they are full rut and standing around watching other elk go nuts. I have hunted more than a few that were just as difficult to stalk as the whitetails I hunted back in Maine.
Just sayin, so some neophite doesn't get the idea elk success is somehow always easier.
Joshua [/b]
I call BS, i saw it on TV, you just walk a few yards from your UTV, blow a bugle and here comes a dandy to shoot at. It's easy as pie
TTT - for one of my fav Trad Gang threads....
Enjoy!
Keep the wind in your face!
Shoot straight, Shinken
:archer2:
I remember seeing this thread when it started and never opened it because I was thinking "o another will this arrow kill an elk thread". Got bored tonight and am really glad i read it. One of the best threads I think. I shoot doug fir shafts with stos BH at about 11 gr/lb. Havent killed an elk yet but I have confidence.
Seems like with the ease of getting information these days you can overload on the options. Threads like this one make you realize that there are lots of ways but the main thing is to use common sense and to do your part the best you can (ie sharpening and shooting). Thanks for bringing this up.
Brandon
That's pretty much what I did on my first ever elk hunt last Sept. I never got a shot off but, that's hunting, still had a great time and I learned a lot for next time.
Very nice bulls !
Thanks for sharing.
TTT
Cheers to that.....well said! :thumbsup:
Well now that tags are being handed out I guess a few lucky ones with be thinking about arrows.
If elk are easier to stalk than whitetails, how come I have taken numerous whitetails by stalking but only 2 elk with a bow in a bunch of years?
Randy is an elk killing machine, while I, on the other hand, can't seem to buy an elk. Although they drive me to insanity, they are still my favorite animal to hunt, and I will continue to be in the elk woods for as long as my legs, heart and lungs hold out. My limited experience in killing elk with a bow is if you put a sharp broadhead in the right place, they will die. My 2 cents.
Made some Grammar updates to this. I am not a good grammar guy. I still feel this is valid. Hope it can help even one person.
Great thread on this subject. I searched for it to answer another persons question, and couldn't find it.
Glad it got brought back up.
Good luck all.
Still one of my fav Trad Gang threads!
:jumper: :jumper: :jumper:
Keep the wind in your face!
Shoot straight, Shinken
:archer2: