Are there any advantages to using an endless loop string over a flemish? I see the olympic archers prefer the endless. Enlighten me please....
Probably easier to get the same string from one maker to the next with endless. I know flemish can vary a lot, depending on who made it. Flemish may need a bit more time to settle in as well.
Other than that, I don't know of any advantages to endless. I used to think endless were a little faster, but that was debunked. Flemish are usually quieter, which I like. Several top IBO shooters use flemish, including Rod Jenkins and Bill Leslie.
I haven't shot an endless string in quite a while, but have been thinking about it just to remember what it felt/sounded like.
Bottom line, either one will do the job as long as the monkey holding the bow does theirs.
Chad
Yep, What Chad said.....It might be harder to find/make GOOD Flemish strings but I'm convinced they are better then end-less when you do....O.L.
Thanx... I make my own strings but lately noticed that some use the endless... Just curious.. Thanx again
omg o.l adcock!!!!
It takes a bigger,more complicated jig to make endless loop strings. Also it takes more time to make one with the added serving and all. I`ve seen several break,always in the loop. You can take a Flemish string apart and make it shorter or a little longer if your buddy cuts a string and does`nt have a spare. I know because it happened to a friend on a hunt in Colorado.I assure you he was the only Compound shooter in Colorado with a Flemish string on his bow. But it kept him hunting. I dont know why those guys shoot those things when they can`t even change a string on them.
I suppose I've always prefered endless strings. They're easy and fast to make, simple to get consistent lengths from string to string, more than strong enough, and they settle in within a dozen arrows or so (unless you're using Dacron).
Endless or Flemish? - both will surely do for bowhunting ...
Endless bowstrings are "spun" from one continuous strand of bowstring fiber. The strands are joined together by serving one of the end loops. Then the other end loop is served. The serving primarily prevents abrasion of the string fibers at the limb nocks. Loops can have additional strands added for added bulk on low strand count HMPE strings. Endless strings are crafted on a special string jig to precise lengths.
After decades of designing and building endless bowstring jigs, my "one arm bandit" jig is easy to build and works superbly ...
(http://www.tradgang.com/rob/jig-full.jpg)
(http://www.tradgang.com/rob/jig-full2.jpg)
Flemish bowstrings are "twisted in the air" - no real jig is used or needed. Getting the proper string length is not an easy task. Instead of serving the string loops, extra strands are twisted and woven into the loops for abrasion protection.
Both strings of the same number of strands of the same string fiber type are of EQUAL strength. It's a myth that because Flemish bowstrings have more strands in the loops they're stronger than endless strings ... so, given the same number of strands of the same fiber, within the main body of the string, Flemish and endless will have the same exact same breaking strength.
After having spun and twisted thousands of strings over the last 50+ years, I've come to appreciate what I consider the superior consistency of endless strings. They can be made to precise lengths every time. They do not have the energy robbing "spring" effect of many many multiple twists. However, they must be created on a special endless bowstring jig. They can be made quite pretty by using two (or more!) different colored string fibers, for a "zebra" swirl effect. I look at it this way, too - there's a reason why Olympic FITA archers use endless bowstrings.
I also believe that neither Flemish or endless strings were the predominant bowstring type used in medieval times for warfare or hunting. Certainly both loops were not twisted or served into the string since those old bows changed brace height and constantly required tweaking. Though no ancient string has survived, I think Ye Olde Stringe Maker either employed a spliced loop at one and used a bowyer knot at the other end for efficiency and variability, or, easier yet, a bowyer's knot at both ends. It just seems so logical ... but I sure could be wrong.
YMMV!
I had read that endless strings gave more velocity than flemish so I wrote to Black Widow since those are the bows I shoot and the reply from Ken was that the endless was about a foot a second faster than flemish BUT that unless the endless loop was properly made it could cut through the nocks on the bow!!! I decided 1fps wasn't worth risking a great shooting bow over. Frank
Well said Rob... I agree wholeheartedly. :thumbsup:
If a flemish string isn't properly made it can damage the bow also. Speed can vary well over 1 fps (with either string) depending on how they are made, how much serving, what size serving, etc. etc. etc.
It boils down to personal preferance. For me, flemish has always been quieter. I'm primarily a hunter, so that's what I use. I don't know any Olympic shooters, but the best shots I know (3-D) use flemish, so I don't see a problem with accuracy using them.
I have seen some really poorly made strings in both styles, and nice ones. How it's made will make more of a difference than if it's endless or flemish.
From the tests I've been told of (I haven't done any myself)if all things equal, primarily string weight, they will have the same speed. I'm sure if you did enough testing with different strings from different people, you'll find some flemish faster, some endless faster, but if they are made properly the speed difference will be minimal.
I hope to find time to do some tinkering with both. I've about worn out my homemade endless jig, but have a new "store bought" one due in any day. Need an excuse to play with it.
Chad
I use endless strings exclusively, just because they're easier to make with a consistent length. I also use natural materials, usually hemp, flax or a hemp/flax blend, so don't have to worry about the string cutting into my nocks.
It's probably true that endless are a little noisier, since they don't have the built in springiness that comes with the twist of a flemish. I'm willing to accept this, though, since they're so much easier to make.
And you don't need a huge jig, just a well-designed one. mine fits on a small (less than 2 feet long and 3 inch wide) board.
-Eric
Ok, one myth needs cleared up here. If a flemish string is "springy", it has too much twist.
Since I'm not the technical type, I look at it from a practical viewpoint. What sense would it make for bowyers who are known for performance in their products to use a "springy" string that's going to cost them performance? i.e., Adcock/A&H, Morrison, Turkey Creek, etc. Why would top tournament archers and hunters (or anyone) use them if that was the case?
I prefer flemish because they are quieter, but it wouldn't break my heart to use an endless string, because there's not a huge difference.
Just want to add, in case there's any question--I make and sell both, so that has nothing to do with my POV.
Chad
I make the endless strings because I, like Eric, think it is easier to get a consistent length and it is not as hard on these old hands that don't need an excuse to start hurting.
You can make a bad string both ways and the performance argument does not have any real significant merit to me.
I do like the looks of a good flemish string, so there is no right or wrong to this one just what you like and why.
RayMO
I agree with ya, Chad - for the very most part, a well made twisted string isn't "springy", but the inherent large number of twists required to keep the strands together does have a subtle spring-like (for lack of a better term) effect. One MUST take into account that spring/stretch factor when twisting up for a precise length. Endless strings are built with no, or very few twists - almost always a finished endless string gets some twists put in to round off the string. I think that Flemish strings are typically quieter than endless, due to the number of twists.
IMHO, I prefer endless 'cause they're just easier/way faster to spin (than mess with twisting), and an endless string can be easily made to very precise loop-to-loop lengths that will not change much at all since there are very very few twists to stretch out.
HOWEVER, I do like the concept and aesthetics of Flemish strings and when I twist one up for myself on a cold Winter's night by the fireplace, I only splice one loop (the top loop) and use a bowyer's knot for the bottom loop - super easy to adjust.
YMMV!
Great discussion. As I stated, I have been making Flemish strings foir quite a while. I have noticed that repeatability of length can be an issue once in a while. I learned to twist Flemish because it looked so complicated to do.. It isn't. I am thinking of building an endless jig and trying a few of those.. If I were to want to make a 2 color endless, do you just change colors while winding?? And where do the ends finish up? I am thinking the ends must be in the loops. Thanx again for all the good info.
1. I learned to twist Flemish because it looked so complicated to do.. It isn't.
2. If I were to want to make a 2 color endless, do you just change colors while winding??
3. And where do the ends finish up? I am thinking the ends must be in the loops.
Yep, yep, and yep.
Chad
I made a endless loop string jig using Rob's instructions in the "how to" section, I can tell you it works well.
Only I used a piece of the thin unistrut which made it lighter and less bulky.
The endless loop strings are good for us "less twisted".
Thanks, Rob!
Dan
QuoteOriginally posted by OconeeDan:
I made a endless loop string jig using Rob's instructions in the "how to" section, I can tell you it works well.
Only I used a piece of the thin unistrut which made it lighter and less bulky.
The endless loop strings are good for us "less twisted".
Thanks, Rob!
Dan
Yer most welcome, Dan!
The unistrut makes a
Great one arm bandit endless jig, real easy to build and with very few parts - I highly recommend it ...
(http://tradgang.com/endless/tradcoopjig.jpg)
... but I do like the heavier, bulkier metal angle jig because it's a tad more stable for spinning lots and lots of strings ...
(http://tradgang.com/endless/jig-full.jpg)
I never understood why Mike Fedora requires the use on endless loop only strings on his bows for the warranty...anybody have any ideas?
Zilla,
Chad nailed it. I make 3-color endless strings, and I can't begin to remember how many people thought they were flemish strings until I pointed out the end servings.
We have a saying over here which goes something like this: "Nothing lasts longer then an improvised thing ...!"
My endless-string-jig is a sure proof of this saying, as I use it for 20 years now. It's functional and versatile and was subject to change and additions thru time. It took all this and was even (ab)used in bowmaking when applying backings with hide glue etc. etc.
What it never did was, to assist me in the making of a multicolored "endless" string! Never was I able to sacrifice the "endless" character for looks, even though, it might not make a differents with todays materials. This just came to my mind after reading Jason's post above (no pun intended here). I count six ends in his "endless" string ... we might need a new name for this style of strings?
What I prefer myself is mostly a matter of which bow I need a string for. It goes more by feeling then anything else. I like endless for most RC. From theory I'd say endless has to be more efficient then flemish. I have no way to measure it though. It might only effect the mentioned FITA archers. Lightweight arrows and poundage plus long distance shooting will show the difference?!
What I don't understand is what Rob sayed about "endless is just as strong as flemish". I calculate with 40% less strenght because of the thinner loops in endless strings. This is only of real concern with linnen strings though - especially crossbow strings, which can't be made flemish style anyway.
Can a physicist please do the math and explain once and for all if/how the separation of strands effects the tensile strenght in string loops?
In The Bowyer's Bible Volume 2, Tim Baker explains the physics of why endless and Flemish loops are equal in strength - I'll look it up and post it here.
QuoteOriginally posted by Falk:
What I don't understand is what Rob sayed about "endless is just as strong as flemish". I calculate with 40% less strenght because of the thinner loops in endless strings. This is only of real concern with linnen strings though - especially crossbow strings, which can't be made flemish style anyway.
Can a physicist please do the math and explain once and for all if/how the separation of strands effects the tensile strenght in string loops?
Nothing but questions, here...
A FITA friend says twisted strings are stronger than untwisted. How's that?
The FITA boys seem always to be adding more wax to their strings. Why's that?
Regarding Flemish twist strings: how many twists per inch should be in a finished string?
That's right Rob and I just did look it up. He explains on p. 218 ff. - plus he tells all the pros for an endless string.
But then again - BAKER (1993: 225)
"A Superior Quality Flemish String
A plaited loop is twice as thick as an endless-string loop. The plaited loop is almost twice the strength of the main string."
If I reverse this, I would end up with "almost half as strong as the main string" in endless-strings ... correct?!
Tim Bakers chapter in TBB Vol.II is for sure one of the best ever written on the subject. And I too use it as reference. Payne-Gallwey, who is cited by Baker, is an other good one. I have to check but think he suggested to calculate with 40% less in loops.
I have doubts about this point and would just like to mention "uneven" stress at the tips with slightly out of alignment working limbs. And as Baker said: "Many a fight ... has been started down at The Bowmakers Bar over just this subject."
:wavey: Falk
Ron, I like that jig! Neet & simple. Thanks for the photo!
Okay - the tensile stress along the string will be divided into both strands at the loop - each getting an about equal share of the load. Up to here I can follow and aggree. But - follow the strands around the bowtip. There is a single point at the back of the bowtip, where both strands find themself reunited - both holding one half of the stress and - Haa! What is this?! - the full stress will hit this very spot - but only 50% of the main boddy material is present.
@JimmyDee
FITA wax more often?
Maybe a left over behavior from Kevlar strings? In any case, it will cause a loss in efficience. But they wear all white and screw strange things onto their bows too :smileystooges:
Twisted is stronger?
Why? I don't see it!
How many twists?
Only as many as are nescessary to hold the splice together. Maybe a full turn every 5 inches or so. If you plan for more you'll only add mass and "springyness" to the string - both you don't want.
QuoteOriginally posted by Falk:
Okay - the tensile stress along the string will be divided into both strands at the loop - each getting an about equal share of the load. Up to here I can follow and aggree. But - follow the strands around the bowtip. There is a single point at the back of the bowtip, where both strands find themself reunited - both holding one half of the stress and - Haa! What is this?! - the full stress will hit this very spot - but only 50% of the main boddy material is present. ...
You have the TBB Vol 2. - reread Tim Baker's article on strings.
Dang for something that seems so simple it sure is complicated.. One twist per 5 inches? I am gonna hafta make a new string now..
FWIW I finally ordered my "Doin The Twist" DVD.. Mainly cause if I am doin anything I wanna do it right and obviously I have been doing it sorta wrong..
QuoteOriginally posted by zilla:
... FWIW I finally ordered my "Doin The Twist" DVD.. Mainly cause if I am doin anything I wanna do it right and obviously I have been doing it sorta wrong..
That video is SUPERB for learning to build Flemish AND endless strings - highly recommended!
OK, I'll throw some stuff out and stir the pot. I haven't read all the refferences folks are talking about so these thougts aren't to dispute all that's been written, but it will! :)
Strings are stronger with twists, you won't find cables or ropes that aren't twisted for that reason. An untwisted/unwaxed string will "flair/parachute" during the shot which is bad news.
Now the stiring part...Differences between strings performance wise is caused by mass and aerodynamics...Stretch/springiness has nothing to do with it. A string is as stretched/sprung as it's ever going to be at brace height. The tension on the string is about 30% less at full draw as it is at brace.........O.L.
Zilla,
don't worry! I was talking about a MINIMUM number of twists - nothing wrong with a few more. BTW I intended to say one turn on 2" not 5". I am used to think in Centimeters and 5cm equals 2" - my fault when I wrote it down.
O.L. & JimmyDee - twist
Ropes etc. are twisted - yes. I was thinking of "stronger" in terms of more efficient - which is obviously not the same thing. So, yes Sir - you are right! With some twist the strands can lean to each other - thus absorbing energy by friction. To tow (is this a word?) your truck this is sure a good thing but in a bowstring it is wasted energy.
Rob,
I suppose you thought of the following text passage from Baker (TBB II: 219)?
"Determin the strenght of a strand of string. Loop it over a smooth hook of a pull-scale, two strands handing down. Pull both strands, noting scale weight at breaking point. ... Breaking strenght will be double that of a single strand broken in a straight pull. Almost!
And the amount of "almost" is what I need to know - in terms of numbers or percentage.
------------------
Paney-Gallwey (1903: 111): The Book of the Crossbow
"It is evident, however, that if the bow-string ... could be made with its end loops of the same thickness as the rest of the bow-string, the string would be stronger then the one I am about to describe, in which the turned parts of the string that form the loops, are only half the substance of its center."
And an other one of my favorites to boil all this down to the most important aspect :)
Hodgkin,A.E. (1951: 69): the Archer's Craft
"Making a bowstring is a jolly business."
:D Falk
Falk, That might be so but what is the weight difference between 1 twist in 5" and 1 in 1 like my flight strings are?? I doubt it's 10 grains with 70% of that in areas that don't hurt much. I use about a 1 twist in 1" so the string is ROUND and won't parachute......O.L.
Absolutely, OL. Bowstrings need to be twisted to round off and be made aerodynamic. After spinning an endless string, it must have some twists added to round off for aerodynamics - but not for strength, particularly with modern fibers which can easily exceed 100# tensile strength per strand. Same goes for the number of strands - while some small diameter modern fibers can have as few as 6 strands for a "hot rod" speed performance bowstring, that string will lack lots in stability. Which is something that the string wax provides - stability in that it holds the strands together, making for a more durable string (and if lots of wax is used, upping the string's physical weight, a slower performing bowstring).
IMHO, the "spring" factor in a bowstring (stretch and creep) is an instability factor that messes with a bow's brace height and nock point location, and that affects shot to shot consistency. So, the more inherent stretch and creep in a bowstring, the less consistent it becomes, and a reason to consider modern HMPE fibers (Dyneema, Vectran, etc). IMHO. YMMV.
Yep Rob, I wax the heck out of all my strings cause the difference with and without from a mass standpoint is tiny. Tell me something....These FITA folks have got it in their heads that a fatter string is more "stable"....For the life of me I can't understand the logic behind that. I suspect like other things in our sport some coach made that statement back in ought 6 and now it's gospel whether it's correct or not. Now I can see switching from a 16 strnd string to an 8 screws up their tuning but that's fixable and not the strings fault...I can see the serving cutting into their tabs making releases more difficult but thicker serving fixes that. I just can't find any logical reason in physics for that to be true...O.L.
There are lots of things about the FITA folks that I don't understand - much is probably just tradition or hearsay, like mandating to wear white clothing on the shooting line and using fat 20 strand Dyneema bowstrings. There is no question in my mind that heavier bowstrings make for more stable and forgiving releases/shots, and more strands will improve (to some degree) the overall stretch/creep factor - remember, freestyle FITA recurve shooting is LOTS about technical gadgets and precise sight mark tuning as it is about form technique. But like anything, it can be taken to a silly extreme. So, for the most part, I believe a 14 strand Dyneema bowstring for target work is nearly overkill on a 45# FITA recurve, but that same 14 strand Dyneema endless string on my 55# hunting longbow is plenty extra durable and shoots just fine as long as I do my part. Go figger.
Tim Baker did a test about added mass due to "candle like waxing", which can be read in the already mentioned chapter in TBB-II. He used linnen strings though. There might be less difference with modern material, at least when only a few strands are involved.
But anyway: An unwaxed 110gr linnen string was heavyly waxed, wax rubbed in and lightly rewaxed. He got it to 180gr this way.
I would rather add 70gr to my arrow then to my string. I can't provide own data here as I hardly wax my strings ever again - after making them.
As for round strings
There should be no problem, with very moderate twisting, to get a round string. And I think a string with an arrow on it will be under enough tension to prevent "parachuting" during the shot. One interesting article which you 'ol Flight Shooters all probably know is this:
HICKMAN, C.N. (1931): Effect of String Weight on Arrow Velocity and Efficiency of Bows. - Ye Sylvan Archer, Vol.4, No. 8, p. 6-9, 3 figs.
Dr. Hickman writes on p. 9: It is the weight of the string that is most important and not its diameter. (i.e., the air resitance of the string is negligible.) This conclusion is based not only on these tests but on previous investigations, the results of which, have not yet been published."
... but I still need to find out where I got this minus 40% from ...
I agree with O.L. on everything except smaller strings/stability. I can't put it into terms on paper, or even explain it, I just know for whatever reason my tournament scores went down when I tried a small diameter string. Not a huge amount, but enough that I noticed. That was with my longbow though--I have a 10 strand Dynaflight '97 on my selfbow, and I do just fine with it--go figure. Probably has more to do with the monkey holding the bow than with the string, but I'm sticking to 14 strands on my longbow. I can't tell you why it works, but I can say that it does work, for me anyway.
Almost forgot--I did hear about a wheel-bow test (been several years ago) where bows in a shooting machine grouped tighter with a moderate sized string vs. a small one. Dunno if it was fact, as I didn't see the report myself, just heard about it.
I love these string discussions!
Chad
Wow Falk, that's a lot! Maybe I ought to weight them! :) OK...Just did..My whole tube of wax only weighs 400 grains counting the plastic tube! So he could only build 6 or 7 strings from an entire tube. Juli's "flight" string on a 35# bow weighs 60 grains and that's waxed. I'll put a new string on and get it out in the heat and will buff off the excess that squeezes out with a dry rag
Chad, I've wondered if it had something to do with the string tracking the string groves?? That could be the case with the compound too, moving side to side in the cams?? Longbows won't have that problem. I've gone as low as 4 strands of 97 on a 30ish# bow and as long as I adjust the serving so it's the same size as 8-10 strands, I can't tell any difference except for a further point on distance. Doesn't seem to stretch or creep either after the first 50 shots or so. I think Rod shoots like 8 strands on a 40#. Rob, I hear ya, I've wondered why they just don't use poly rope..O.L.
Could have something to do with the wheels/cams--I really have no idea. That's just the only test I've even heard about comparing strings that way.
I forget how many strands Rod uses, but I know he does like a tiny string, and it definately works for him.
Probably more to do with me than the string, but you know how it goes--the mental thing with archery can make more of a difference than the equipment.
The only reason I even gave 10 strands another try (after almost a full tournament season of shooting a small string on my longbow) was to pick up some speed--switching between the two bows was tough because of the speed difference. Now I just don't know if it's a case of what my longbow "likes", or my mentality, maybe the small increase in speed threw me off, or what....I do know it works on my selfbow, but I probably won't try it again on my current longbow. If it ain't broke.....
Chad
I think these are good points:
LBR
Quote I prefer flemish because they are quieter...
Rob DiStefano
QuoteIMHO, I prefer endless 'cause they're just easier/way faster to spin (than mess with twisting), and an endless string can be easily made to very precise loop-to-loop lengths that will not change much at all since there are very very few twists to stretch out.
Because they seen quieter, I've been twisting Flemish strings...
zilla
QuoteI have been making Flemish strings for quite a while. I have noticed that repeatability of length can be an issue once in a while.
...and have settled upon a techinque for ending up with a certain number of twists-per-inch in my finished, shot-in strings.
O.L. Adcock
QuoteStrings are stronger with twists, you won't find cables or ropes that aren't twisted for that reason. An untwisted/unwaxed string will "flair/parachute" during the shot which is bad news.
Differences between strings performance wise is caused by mass and aerodynamics. Stretch/springiness has nothing to do with it. A string is as stretched/sprung as it's ever going to be at brace height. The tension on the string is about 30% less at full draw as it is at brace.
The point in OL's second paragraph is an excellent one.
But I'm still wondering: how many twists per inch in a Flemish string? The responses seem to range from "1 in 2 inches" (Falk) to "2 to 3 per inch" (a material vendor's web site.)
I've decided that the number of twists used to form the plaits under the crotch depends on the material being used and the weight of the bow. I used to start my taper (I pull out one strand per twist) as few as three twists below the crotch. FastFlight is slicker and seems to need more and heavy bows seem to need more -- otherwise the strings seem to start to start stretching again after 500 shots or so and I'm guessing that they're pulling apart in the plaits. (Extra strands for padding come into play, too: more strands mean more twists to complete tapered plaits.)
I don't think 1/2 per inch is going to get it for a FastFlight string on an 80# bow. But are 2 per inch too many? Hmm....
I am sorry that I forgot Dr. Robert P. ELMER and his outstanding work so far:
ELMER, R.P. (1951): Target Archery. :notworthy:
There is a long chapter about strings (p. 266-288), which is as good as it gets. I recommend reading it to everybody, even though some points are obsolet today because of syntetic materials. But he said something - not even thought of here in our discussion:
ELMER (1951: 277) "The question of how many twist should be put into a string has never been resolved by harmonious accord. The Turks did not twist their silken strings at all, ... The big Flemish [= pre WW-I, from Belgium] in my possession makes a complete twist in every one and three-quarter inches, and that - or somewhat tighter - seems to me to be about right. Twisting does not make a string any stronger but it certainly makes it last longer. This may be due to uneven tension in the strands which is cushioned by the twist, or the twist may keep the looser threads from snapping, but no matter how well equality of tension be relized the twisted string enjoys a longer life."
The then widely used hemp and flax (linen) strings would show this effect sooner then our todays material. So it would be obvious to him what we might not notice. I have to believe Elmer and his observation here and have no problem doing so. He also said something which I would like to quote and which is motivation to myself:
"Before the war the best strings came from Germany and Belgium." [WW-I is meant here]