From time to time over the yrs Ive played with the swing draw style of shooting which has been taught by many of the greats, whom I admire, greatly, but is it really practical for most hunting situations?
In my trials it seems that theres a whole lot of movement involved with this style,......and what do game pick up on most? Movement.
As much as I love the smooth, clean, fluid motion of the swing draw, it just doesnt seem very practical in the Whitetail woods.
Id like to hear your thoughts on this style, from those who use it, as well as those who dont.
:coffee:
I use a swing draw and I have killed a few critters with that draw!I have shot animals from tree stands, from ground blinds with the windows open, and spot and stalk. I have gotten busted, but most of the times it works just fine.
Bisch
I can not see the problem as you just slow the entire process down when needed.
I've practiced with it a bit, but never use it hunting. If I did, I would just slow down the whole process.
If you watch some of Hills videos, you'll see that he didn't always use the swing draw either. A lot of times, the his bow is almost in a shooting position, when he slaps an arrow on it, draws and shoots.
Howard did a lot of small game hunting, and in most cases, the game is already moving before the draw is started so it doesn't matter much what kind of draw one does then, it just has to be fairly fast.
Same for me. I just slow it down when needed(rarely) but it's all one fluid movement(when I do it right).
Thanks Bisch, just the kind of input I was looking for, from some of those that use that style.
In my use of the style on the range im pretty darned accurate with with it, but have hesitated using it in the field because of the movement associated with it, but hearing from folks like you, I may just stick with it.
Thanks much
Paul
:thumbsup:
QuoteOriginally posted by Bisch:
I use a swing draw and I have killed a few critters with that draw!I have shot animals from tree stands, from ground blinds with the windows open, and spot and stalk. I have gotten busted, but most of the times it works just fine.
Bisch
And when Bisch says a few critters he means more than Noah had on the ark.
I just slow it down that's all, I arrowed some pigs last week had to hold at full draw for around 30sec before letting fly. I swing draw all the time, just slow it right down and you will be sweet as.
Pardon my ignorance but what is the "swing draw"?
QuoteOriginally posted by Jakeemt:
Pardon my ignorance but what is the "swing draw"?
Ditto How about a short clip of it.
QuoteOriginally posted by Thumper Dunker:
QuoteOriginally posted by Jakeemt:
Pardon my ignorance but what is the "swing draw"?
Ditto How about a short clip of it. [/b]
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ivb6RWJVGh4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ivb6RWJVGh4)
Hill and Schulz did pretty well with it too.
I think control is the key and the speed of your target dictates the speed of the draw....you can swing slow or fast.
Here's some fast at the begiining of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4kIpsoi6oY
It obviously will work but my goal has always been to minimize movement because its the biggest giveaway you are there
At close range a push pull straight at the animal will serve you more effectively- if you are in the process of choosing one why not try it on birds and squirrels in your back yard and see what works for you
Howard took a lot of shots at ranges most of us don't because he was a fantastic shot and was confident - often on moving game
I like them close, facing away from me, deaf in one ear and blind in one eye. If I find one like that I've got a fighting chance
I think that the swing draw has a lot to do with what shooting rhythm one uses and what type of bow one uses. A heavy handled recurve is a bit slower to get on point, if the bow has a deep grip, if the shooter shoots that bow with a straight arm and if one needs to hold for several seconds to be accurate, the swing draw may seem a bit weird. The whole idea of the swing draw is about fluid power and control, but for me it is also easier on the shoulders. The ability to make a shot happen that is not the standing still shot or the shot that is out of position. Most of my best shots at game have been fairly quick. Hill said that game shots should be done at a faster tempo than what a target shooter would use. It is the world where a fast pointing longbow shot with a bent bow arm, a swing draw, and a nearly instant release comes together to put meat on the table. One other aspect of the swing draw. If one extends the bow, rotates the body to reach to the string, and rotates to draw the bow, one will need to re-aim when the anchor is reached. I hunt on the ground and I have found that taking that much body motion and that much time is quite often too mcuh for the deer that I hunt. With the swing draw, the body does does not need to do much motion, one can take an accurate shot with one's back tight to a tree and still come up dead accurate with the release happening instantly. Fast, fluid accuracy.
Ok thats what I do just never knew it had a name.Good for fast shots at little moving critters.
The swing draw works perfectly for hunting, I believe it is the core of successful instinctive shooting (for me).
I never draw when a deer can see me anyway.....and my swing is like molasses when on a deer.
Asbell's books on instinctive shooting have a lot on this (mostly pros).
It doesn't have to be a full swing and can help to focus on the target. That said I don't regularly use it - don't know why, possibly cause not how I learned. A standard draw has a decent amount of movement anyway.
I was sitting on a blow-down log and had just finished my PBJ sandwich when a buck walked up and stopped 11 yards away he stood there with not a bit of cover between us. I raised the bow drew and released in one motion.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/Stumpkiller/Bowhunting/deer1b.jpg)
That's a shot I use bunny hunting all the time and it paid off with a nice buck.
Practice swing arm, practice slow with set arm draw, practice push-pull, practice facing with both feet pointing away from the target. Practice holding the bow horizontal on your knees, practice shooting under the seat of a chair, etc., etc. Eventually a shot will present itself that may pay off.
Sorry - duplicate post. (?)
I use it all the time and believe it is a natural for ground hunting. When an animal looks away, you can get an arrow headed his direction in one quick, fluid motion. It also works better than you think if they are not looking away. You must practice until it is a fluid movement and it is crucial to fully commit to the shot.
I'm w/ Ray,
Swing draw is not for me but if you want your close game hunting more of a challenge? go for it.Try swing draw on an approaching gobbler w/out a blind.Now that's stacking the odds against you.
So much about the shot is feel. Practiced swing drawing but found it to be too much movement when hunting with my ghillie suit. Went away from it and haven't looked back.
I find this entire discussion rather interesting . . .Our predecessors, some of the greatest archers and archery hunters of all time, namely John Shulz, Howard Hill, Byron Ferguson, Asbel and many others- all shot with some type of rhythm/timing sequence style draw while rarely holding any type of anchor; i.e. a static style. Further, I have heard/read these men clearly and STRONGLY denounce any other style FOR HUNTING.
Don't take it from me as I am not an authority, but I think you could document that ALL these men would tell you to decide: target shooting or hunting. They do not mix.
I really wonder how much our modern world; compound/techno, 3D competitions, etc. have influenced our thinking.
Watch the John Shulz video on youtube. Listen closely to the archery philosophy he presents from Howard Hill. Shooting at game is VERY different than shooting at targets.
I am intrigued by all of you who mention too much movement. . . while again I am no authority, I am not sure you understand the swing draw. You all have to move to shoot with trad equip. - the swing draw is simply a practiced rhythm/timing with no static beginning or anchor. You can slow it down to a crawl if you like.
QuoteOriginally posted by gregg dudley:
QuoteOriginally posted by Bisch:
I use a swing draw and I have killed a few critters with that draw!I have shot animals from tree stands, from ground blinds with the windows open, and spot and stalk. I have gotten busted, but most of the times it works just fine.
Bisch
And when Bisch says a few critters he means more than Noah had on the ark. [/b]
No kidding!! I was going to say something along those lines. :) LOL!!! I'm surprised to learn that....but Bisch definitely has proof in the freezer and on the wall to back his statements.
I like the swing draw....especially when shooting a Howard Hill style bow....but my limited big game bowhunting has seen me get busted by virtually blinking my eyes let alone having the nerve to move my bow...which by the way has caused me to get busted too :) LOL!!!
I'm really not confused at all. I promise
I've used both with success. But for whitetails in a treestand I don't use it very often. Prefer to draw straight back to reduce movement.
You still need to bring the bow up into position to draw it straight back. When I shoot kneeling or sitting, my swing may only be a few inches, but it is still the same shot sequence. Watch John Schulz shooting while laying on a table.
BTW : I shoot the way John Schulz does, not like Asbell, That does make a difference.
Two things I would never want to do with respect to bowhunting.
1. Restrict myself to a single style of shooting.
2. Tell someone else their style was wrong.
The first is silly. The second is just arrogant.
I use the swing draw every time in one way or another on game. Turkeys are the only critters that I just haven't had enough time with, and I haven't hit but one and it was about 30 yds away and didn't seem to care.
It's a rhythm thing for me I guess, but sometimes the swing is only a couple inches. It always depends on the situation, and I don't shoot deer that are staring me down very often.
Blow a turkey diaphragm call if a deer sees you and many times they will ignore you and you can swing away!
QuoteOriginally posted by Otto:
Two things I would never want to do with respect to bowhunting.
1. Restrict myself to a single style of shooting.
2. Tell someone else their style was wrong.
The first is silly. The second is just arrogant.
Sound doctrine right there.
I missed at my best ever opportunity on a whitetail this last season because the buck was broadside, 20 yards away, with nothing between he & I, and I was on the ground with him. In retrospect, (always 20/20) I swung too fast and he bolted before I got the shot off. I haven't had any problems with it scaring away turkeys in the fall, I just missed cuz I suck! LOL! But after the "lost" buck I'm trying to learn to shoot with a set bow arm also. Better to have more than one way to skin a deer. :-)
Otto
A wise man once told me that
"successful bowhunting is defined by the elimination of mistakes. Give me a guy who shoots one bow, and one arrow the exact same way every time and I will show you a fantastic shot!"
the original poster asked for opinions and I'm pretty sure that's what he got. Everyone's opinion can ONLY be based on personal /subjective experience.
Labeling those you don't find yourself in agreement with is -well, not something I'm going to label
On the other hand, what do I know :biglaugh:
I have applied the swing draw on several animals I've killed......it's scenario dictated for me....and deadly during those times.
Its also advantageous for the bow hunter to have that technique in his bag of tricks.
You also could ask Howard Hill..... :campfire:
Yup, swing draw style is perfect for hunting. Probably a better name for it would be 'rhythm draw' since any movement can be super slow or very fast, and in either case needn't involve actually 'swinging' the bow...but the rhythm aspect (vs. setting the arm rigid like a rod) is always part of the shot. Both certainly work and have their advantages, but I'll take the rhythm style for hunting and 'joint insurance'.
I have never called it the swing draw, but watching the video I must say I have a draw that is more swing than static. I don't swing from my waist, but there is certainly movement in both arms on my draw. I don't think it has ever spooked game, but I have not drawn on that many. Other sounds have alerted animals more than the draw.
One shot that I have found to be very good with longbows and deer is a half push and half pull, with bow only coming up a couple of inches fron the beginning of the draw. Another, that I practise and use, is anchor first, or nearly anchor first, and get the rest of your draw with just the bowarm. It worked for me when I had to shoot a deer that came on my back side.
QuoteOriginally posted by Otto:
Two things I would never want to do with respect to bowhunting.
1. Restrict myself to a single style of shooting.
2. Tell someone else their style was wrong.
The first is silly. The second is just arrogant.
Yep
Terry again hits it right on the head. Situation dictates your natural movement to achieve the goal.
When I started shooting I tried the Asbell idea with swing draw and I just never was consistent, I changed to a more static straw and I got to be a good shot. That said, I can't even get close to moving or arial targets shooting like I do and the swing draw is probably the bomb for that, I might revisit it a bit and see if I can morph the two. Most deer I see rarely stop for a shot and and that's where the static shooting falls apart a bit. I mean to hit a moving target with a shotgun we swing on the target so it must work well with animals too.
I do both styles, both static and swing. With my high wrist recurve I use static, and with my hill style longbow I use swing. I have notice that with both there is still movement, and that is the rotation of the upper body while drawing, and I have been busted equally with both styles. I feel it has more to do with the range you are from the animal than anything else. the closer you are the less tolerance for movement.
All prey animals have three zones, recognition, flight, and fight. If you are in the recognition zone then them will acknowledge movement but will not run until they can identify it and adjust their flight zone. If movement is in their flight zone they will move away from it(quite often running) before they even try to recognize it. Their recognition zone and flight zone change with speed of movement, size of movement (standing or kneeling), and any sounds that are linked to movement
I believe this is why when you see older hunting videos where the hunter is moving and still have a clear shot at their animal is they are outside the animals flight zone.
The same zones are affected by sounds. That's why mature animals will move from a selected woods when they here a vehicle stop. The older and more wise the animal, the larger the flight zone.
That's just one mans very simplified explanation of prey animal responses.
Jesse :archer:
I've always had some amount of "swing" in my draw. As other have said, it rarely starts at the waist unless I am standing on a target range. In the field there's probably less than a foot of swing involved.
For whatever reason, I never seem to get my shoulders set right with a straight push-pull draw.
QuoteOriginally posted by KSdan:
I find this entire discussion rather interesting . . .Our predecessors, some of the greatest archers and archery hunters of all time, namely John Shulz, Howard Hill, Byron Ferguson, Asbel and many others- all shot with some type of rhythm/timing sequence style draw while rarely holding any type of anchor; i.e. a static style. Further, I have heard/read these men clearly and STRONGLY denounce any other style FOR HUNTING.
Don't take it from me as I am not an authority, but I think you could document that ALL these men would tell you to decide: target shooting or hunting. They do not mix.
I really wonder how much our modern world; compound/techno, 3D competitions, etc. have influenced our thinking.
Watch the John Shulz video on youtube. Listen closely to the archery philosophy he presents from Howard Hill. Shooting at game is VERY different than shooting at targets.
I am intrigued by all of you who mention too much movement. . . while again I am no authority, I am not sure you understand the swing draw. You all have to move to shoot with trad equip. - the swing draw is simply a practiced rhythm/timing with no static beginning or anchor. You can slow it down to a crawl if you like.
First off I'm no expert either! :) . But I do know for 100% certainty that Byron Ferguson teaches NOT to swing draw. He states it very very clearly in his book and shooting video. He claims " too much movement" (I don't quite follow this belief BUT the people I have seen who try swing draw do move alot.
and he said it can cause serious shoulder injuries for those shooting heavier weights.
Now, if you watch his aerial shots and moving shots it looks bet swing drawish. But a stationary target he holds his bow out in front first. I incorporate push/pull , swing, and static depending on situation and target. I think this topic has confusion due to different peoples interpretation of swing or static draw. I think of Hill /Shulz when I think swing NOT asbell. I think Jimmy Blackmon/Arne Mo when I think of static. I fall Inbetween there somewhere. Others may view it differently, but I do not think of a swing draw as a crazy flailing motion to get to anchor and snap shooting ( I have seen it this way plenty of times at shoots though) and I do by think of static drawing only as a super rigid form like oly shooters use.
Paul I think swing fits perfect in hunting situations , I'm just not good enough to do it
Brianlocal- point taken. Good points. For sure different perspectives and definitions exist. I think that was one of my observations. . .wonder why we think a swing draw has so much movement. ??
Like I said, I found this entire discussion "interesting," ( I mean that- it is curious) particularly in light of some of these great trad shooters before us. They clearly had styles that reflected some type of rhythm, tilted head, shorter draws, flexed shoulders, quick release, etc. Their styles were clearly not static; i.e. a straight rigid arm draw, full extension type draw, or an Olympic style of target shooting (and certainly pretty exclusive to modern compounds). Byron sure does not look static in my definition (emphasis on "my" definition).
Keeping with this thread- I think the earlier generation guys may have been on to something about non-static shooting and hunting.
Again- "interesting" as I just wonder how much a static style of shooting from the modern compound world has influenced this discussion. Not to be solved here. . .??????
Many of the animals I've shot have been moving. I don't think a one of them has seen it coming. A stationary deer may pick it up if they are not "doing anything", but I've not had a problem. The deer in MI get hunted mid September until Jan 1. I think they are maybe keyed up second only to TX animals.
If swing draw is your style, just pick the right opportunity. Just like anything, it takes practice to know when that "right time" is. I shoot trad for a lot of reasons, but you have to be willing to fail from time to time as you progress with this type of hunting.
A miss for me is only a learning experience and I don't really care what the animal was, giant buck or doe, you just do better the next time. I failed miserably for many chances at animals learning to hunt pressured animals from the ground...
When it comes to wired and wary deer, nothing beats NW Iowa public land and the busy private ground I hunt on where guys are cruising the field edges every night, even when they are not hunting. Hunting these areas on the ground requires luck, a good back drop and a smooth quick shot. It seems that deer will pick up on the slightest of motions. Try holding your bow out extended for any length of time, there will be motion, the deer I hunt from the ground will pick-up on that little bit of movement. My wife looks at her feet, not the deer, when the situation lets her shoot, she takes her bow off her leg swings up to deer, hesitates about a 1/4 second and shoots. Even shooting from a standing position, it seems that our deer will do a stop and momentary freeze most of the time before bolting. A quick one second swing draw shot is the only shot that will do it at times. That is how I have filled most of my doe tags, getting shots while working my way to where I was going to sit. Of course, it is very important to see the deer before they see you for even the fastest shot to work.