It is my experience that not many bowyers like to install threaded inserts in a riser for bowquivers, like a Thunderhorn.
Some express that their in there pricing, I see it varying between US $ 10,- (like Ken from Whippenstick who has no problems with installing them at all) and US $100,- (I will mention no name here, but found out that that bowyer (who has an outstanding reputation and makes outstanding bows) is not particulary fond of installing them so I consider that pricing as "a Japanese No") Some bowyers take it one level furhter and just say they don't do that (I know one which also has an outstanding rep and makes outstanding bows)
To me it looks rather easy to install: drill two holes and glue those suckers in...
What would be the reason for being not happy as a bowyer with installing inserts in a riser. Bowyers, feel free to react!
Personally I love bolt-on quivers and I don't like the rubber straps. So for me inserts are important to have on a bow.
Likely a concern they will weaken the riser and increase warranty issues.
I have no problem with them myself and drilled a mid 70's Super Grizzly back when I was 16 (in 1981) and the Kwikee Kwiver still serves me well. I prefer them over straps too, but some bows are just too delicate for them. and just plain don't need them.
I understand it when you have a very lean riser,like on most longbows but on the bulky risers from ie 3 pce recurves I don't understand.
I don't like bowquivers on longbows anway. I only like bowquivers on heavy mass bows and then I want to see some inserts :)
We install them on the top and bottom of the riser but won't do them on the outside of the sight window. Not enough material there to feel comfortable with.
Mike
But if a bowyer doesn't want and you have a three pce design, I guess you can always use the Thunderhorn 'Two-Point' Takedown quiver, designed for recurves and longbows using a standard limb bolt attachment system.
I believe you can order the parts seperately needed for that. I did that when I moved over from straps to bolts, great service from Thunderhorn! I also like their bowstringer a LOT!
Ad, I think I know the $100.00 bowyer and I have one his Statics :D I actually just saw that yesterday as I looked at all the options and cost if I ever ordered a new one and saw that $100.00 cost for inserts to be added.. :eek:
I think we are talking about the same guy. Not a bad word about him, but really, US 100,- ??????
So how does your static shoot? :)
Which "number "on the price list you have??? (the upper one is number one)
Ad,
My static shoots great and I'm o.k. with it not having the inserts in it but with the correct bit,epoxy and inserts it is a simple process but with all the available styles of quivers out there I like it without the inserts...Maybe he just accidently typed in one to many 0'S and ment to read $10.00 and not $100.00 :dunno:
The one I have is pretty new and I would only trade it for a Newer one all Ziricote with Olive Ash limbs over bamboo and in a mid 40's weight range :D
I have no problem at all doing them. Actually I do quite a few. I do charge 40.00 and feel that is reasonable just to stock the parts and take the time to do the work. I believe its more work to finish the riser and that is probably why the bowyers do not like doing them. I also do not set them in the riser window area. One on each end .
God bless you all, Steve
How much do you make an hour. I bet to do them right it takes quite a bit of time and the finish work involved. I say bowyers time is worth quite a bit $35-40 an hour and to do them perfect $75 would seem ok to me. I was once told by a very reputable bowyer that total build time on a custom bow is 20hrs.(No pierce points or anything elaborate)so $1000 bow is only $50 an hr. and that does not count woods and tools and materials. I say if ya want them that bad, do them yourself or do not complain what bowyers charge and if it looks so easy, do them yourself, Sorry but the question irks me and I am not a bowyer!!! Shawn
I have a drill bit with a stop I made myself and put on with set screws. Takes 2 minutes to drill 2 holes, and 10 minutes if you take your time, to mix epoxy and put them in. If any epoxy gets in the threads, just chase it with a tap! No big deal, probaly have done close to a 100 since the 1970's, bears, pearsons, samicks, never known of one failing yet!
With a drill press, it's not terribly difficult to install them. However, IMO there aren't many high quality insert bushings available. Those that Bighorn used to install back when G. Fred owned the company were the best, but they're not available anymore.
Koger, do that to a $1000 bow and think about the customer and even if yaonly made one mistake in a thousand, that would cost ya dearly. We are not talking $100 yard sale bows. Shawn
Well I'll go out on a limb here and say I love quiver inserts on a one piece bow. Use them on every one piece I make. I think it's the absolute best way to use a bow quiver on a one piece bow. Now if it's a TD just use the limb bolt mounts. I seriously doubt anyone would ever use a slip over the side strap on quiver that has a DETERMINED space it can fit IF they traced the outline of their bow on a piece of paper both strung and unstrung and see how much the bow bends in the fadeout area. Just saying.
Now for cost. I think it cost $4.95 for a set. A drill bit with a depth collar, dab in some smooth on INSIDE the threads, screw it in and your done. Drop a couple drops of CA in the bottom of the drilled hole to seal the bottom. Might have 10 minutes in it. BUT NOW I have a great way to screw in a bow holder to apply spray finish from top to bottom. Just easier for me and makes sense. Your mileage may vary.
Each bowyer has earned the right to charge what they feel is appropriate to the work requested. While some buyer/owners may view the charge they have being excessive, then the owner always has the option to look elsewhere. I am not a bowyer, but who better understands what is the proper way to install a foreign object into their design and what affects that object may have on the shot or integrity of the structure?
Kind of laughing about a 20 hour custom bow. I spend nearly that much time in shaping,sanding and finishing a bow.
God bless you all, Steve
I am with Sixby on this one.I spend 20 hours after the blank is out of the form and trued up. And thats just a one piece longbow with nice overlays. :knothead: Bob
I personally don't like them. I think it takes away from the look of the bow.
Its probably one of the best ways to attach a quiver to a bow but I would rather use a strap on.
Gilbert
Amicus. I would much rather use a side quiver. Lakota style or a back quiver than put anything on the limb of a bow. That just goes completely against my grain. Longer bolts and a top mount quiver is the way to go with a takedown. If it is a recurve I see absolutely no problem with nicely done quiver inserts and it is no harm done to the bow IMHO.
God bless you all, steve
It is no secret I don't like quivers on my longbows. They just dont feel right on those bows. Here I prefer back- or sidequivers also.
However, a 3 pce recurve with some mass and a Small Fry Sidewinder from Tunderhorn bolted into the quiver inserts, is a real joy to shoot!
Shawn I understand what you mean, and have put them in BW's, Bear takedowns as well, you have a lot of meat in these bows. I also build custom long range rifles costing way more than $1000, and do a lot more milling, drilling, and truing up on them, where one uh oh can screw up the whole job. Just saying, if the riser is thick enough, your inserts are only gonna be3-4 threads deep. Seal the hole as described earlier with epoxy or CA.
I don't charge my customers for quiver inserts, but I generally try to talk them out of it. I cringe at the thought of tripping while packing your bow and falling on the quiver. It wouldn't take much to pop one of those studs out of your riser. A limb bolt, slide on or strap on quiver is going to give a sturdier mount, IMO
Funnt cause these bowyers have 18 month weight and charge anywhere from 12 to 1800. They also have expensive cnc machine and say 20 hrs. in general of actually work time. I have no experiece building Bows but had OL make me a dandy and he told me 18 hrs. total this does not include dry time and time in the oven of course. Shawn
shawn, It didn't include a lot of things probably , grinding lams, grinding and shaping overlays,. glue up time on riser work. Time buying and finding materials, ect. I have talked with a lot of bowyers about this and when you get down to it they are forgetting or leaving out this and that and when you actually add up the time in the bow it is always a lot more than they are saying. Like I said I will have close to 20 hours starting with shaping and sanding and finishing. That is after the bow is actually a working bow. Built and tillered ect/. Easily 35 to 40 hours in a bow and on really super fancy ones twice that much./
But I know a really nice bow can be turned out faster. Especially if the riser block is done and ready to mount limbs on.
Oh an an 18 mo or 2 year wait is nothing . It simply means that the bowyer is taking orders he cannot fill in 6 months./ LOL or that he wants a lot of slack in case he wants to take a couple of hunts in the next year or two go on vacation or work in the yard.
God bless you all, Steve
I never found inserts hard to put in, they didn't take long, and I never saw any issues with them. Black Widow does them for free.
So if a bow takes 80 hrs.? Why would anyone sell them for 7-800 bucks. With material that works out to less than $10 an hour. I will call a few bowyers I know and ask again. I once ordered a bow that was not started at all and had it in 9 days and it took 2 days to ship. Seems like an awful lot of time for so little money. Shawn
Personally I think its more about taste and tradition than strength that leads people (bowyers and shooter) to not want to install them.
The hole for a quiver insert is like 1/4" deep or something like that.
Even if it's in the sight window I don't think its a structural issue. Even on a slender bow. The truth is that the back and belly sides of the sight window do most of the work resisting the stresses, just liek in the limbs. A hole in the middle of the sight window shouldn't matter much.
I recently drilled a 3/8 or 27/64 (i forget) hole clear through the sight window of a 3 piece I made to install a plunger button/threaded rest insert. No problems there and theres no glass or phenolic reinforcement in the riser either. Cut to center etc. I think it's alot more opinion than fact when it comes to the strength.
I waited several months for a bow to be finish I ask the bower to install the quiver bushing for me and he did, while doing so the riser cracked we were both sick. Strap on quivers work fine......stabow
QuoteOriginally posted by stabow:
I waited several months for a bow to be finish I ask the bower to install the quiver bushing for me and he did, while doing so the riser cracked we were both sick. Strap on quivers work fine......stabow
Sorry to hear about that. What wood was used on the riser? I am also considering a bow quiver. Do strap on or slide on quivers have a tendency to move about?
Schafer bows, Quiver inserts, Standard Option. one of the most expensive bows out there and Dave drills them.
The bowyer told me they would not install bushings in a sight window of their wood risers. I popped them in myself. It takes about five minutes and Martin gives you pattern to space the holes. There's nothing to it and it won't weaken your bow.
Not difficult to do but you do need to take your time to be sure the quiver will be siting where you want it to be. Also, very important to use the right size and style drill bit. It like to use a brad point or forstner bit for the cleanest hole.
Have to watch the thickness of the sight window on those cut past center.
I use a Kwikee on all my recurves. Very versitile and easy to remove while on stand.
who said anything about an 800. bow taking 80 hours?
All my bows are cut 3/16 past center unless the customer wants different. Hense no holes in the riser at the window location. What is the problem with placing the inserts on the ends of the riser? Just wondering. I have always put them there because it is the safest and thickest place on the riser to place them.
'
God bless, Steve
I personal hate to take a piece of exotic wood and drill a bunch of holes for what ever in it. We charge $15 for quiver inserts. At that point it is your riser, once the holes are there, they are there forever. It may cost you a sale later.
Bob
I think it depends on the make and style of the bow. I had a stabilizer and quiver inserts put in my Black Widow PSA X and I don't even use them, but I may in the future. They were free and they do not take away from the appearance of the bow in my opinion.
I consider this like alot of other things in life. Everyone has a opinion some based soley on what they have read or heard from someone else. To throw out some food for thought now adays it's considered tabboo to file the string groves on a recurve to deep on the belly side. I ask you to take a look on any early Bear bow and notice the belly string groove!! Also how many old bows have you seen with old drilled holes for sights etc! Evidently the world doesnt end if u file clear through to the lam underneath! However with that said theres the famouc compass bows. So like i said earlier it depends on the bow design! Your mileage may vary but I like quiver inserts.
I prefer no inserts on my bows...but have them on my original Jeffery Royal Hunter. My reasoning is that it allows an area of the riser to be possibly compromised in inclement weather by moisture...causing moisture damage and failure at worse and some raised grain at least. If you are tedious about your bow finishes and touching them up or never using DEET products for mosquitoes then likely nothing of concern. For me with our 15 Aug opening for deer and swarms of biting insects....with daily thunderstorms....it is an issue. I ended up just plugging the insert with wax as tight as I could...figured if I ever wanted to use it would just heat and let wax melt out.
Since 1991 never had reason to use the insert....
It comes to personal choice in my opinion for recurves...I just personally prefer lakot or back quivers...or a great northern quick mount/strap on to attaching it with inserts to the riser.
My brotehr on other hand just put money towards a nice SAIII BW that has two sets of inserts for quivers (BW and Quickie Quiver) plus a stabilizer/string tracker insert. He does not mind them at all....and feels it gives him more versatility.
To each his own.