I am looking for some help at buying a new long bow. I currently shoot a recurve . I read an article by Joe Blake on the best of both worlds so off that I am leaning to the r/d. But a lot do you guys prefer the straight or D
Which style do you prefer and why please include pros and cons of both ? And which do you think would be best for me to try?
Thank you.
Tim.
Just one opinion-try a 3 piece r/d longbow like Hummingbird. Their are several great bowyers out there and the difference in the best of their products is personal preference.
R/D 3 piece gives enough mass to eliminate handshock . Hummingbird longbows have the smoothest draw of any longbows I have shot. A 3 piece gives you options if you want different limbs[poundage, weight] to shoot w/o buying another whole bow. Thanks, Roy
I like the bows with very slight R/D that still string up to a D. You gain some performance and arguably lose some shock/thump, without giving up anything in my view.
Some great examples of these mild R/D bows that string to a D are (in no order), Fox Traditional, Northern Mist Baraga/Superior, Crow Creek Dalton, Liberty Contender, Mohawk. There are many more, but those above are a few ive shot and can highly recomend.
Thanks Roy I will check em out.
Thanks Lamey I was giving the NM Baraga a had look.
I have owned all the bows Matt mentioned and in that class I actually like A Dwyer original best. The grip for me is perfect, it's fast quiet and Forgiving. BILL
QuoteOriginally posted by Mr. fingers:
I am looking for some help at buying a new long bow. I currently shoot a recurve . I read an article by Joe Blake on the best of both worlds so off that I am leaning to the r/d. But a lot do you guys prefer the straight or D
Which style do you prefer and why please include pros and cons of both ? And which do you think would be best for me to try?
Thank you.
Tim.
I cannot for the life of me think of any advantage to a straight bow that bends to the "D" shape, over a reflex /defelex bow that takes the same "D" shape at brace height, and stores more energy, and delivers less hand shock, with much higher performance....
I suppose you could sharpen the straight bow on the end and use it for a spear..... :dunno:
"I suppose you could sharpen the straight bow on the end and use it for a spear..... [dunno]"
That's gonna ruffle some feathers but it is funny!
I have never owned or even shot a longbow that is not reflex/deflex (or is that deflex/reflex)...which as far as I am concerned means that I am missing something...it may not be my next bow, since I keep getting sidetracked, but at some point I am going to have a true D shaped longbow...and maybe it will be 70 inches long...and I know that does not make any sense at all...and I am just going to do it anyway...if I was only going to have one longbow it would be as Kirk says...as if I will ever have only one longbow :laughing:
Just realized that I did shoot some sort of PSE D-shaped longbow once in a big box store with an archery department...that was about as ugly shooting a bow as I have ever experienced...so not gonna get one of those
DDave
I personally prefer the strait limbed longbows. Why?? Honestly it's probably the thought of them. BUT a well built straightlimbed bow will not have the uncomfortable thump people talk about. The JD Berry Vixen is very smooth to draw, has great cast, no discernible Handshock to speak of and it's just a true classic.
I have owned my fair share of r/d that string to "d" also and for the life of me, the mild r/d bows just don't seem go offer any advantage TO ME that a good straight limbed cannot give. My NM superior , Yellowstone, Mohawk, Bear Montana, Dave Wallace, (there are more ) all seemed to have a more uncomfortable release TO ME when compared to my Vixen, Morningstar , Misty Dawb, HHA Wesley, NM classics. Could just be perception but I like the draw and feel of release of a straightlimbed bow over the R/Ds
So are D bow more about nostalgia than performance?
Preferences are personal you need to determine yours. Straight limbed bows have a huge following so there must be something to them. For myself I prefer an R/D with a shelf cut past center. Performance is not just speed it is the whole package and includes accuracy, pointing ability, pointing speed-in general how it behaves for you.
So I hear that 53 is going move. Anyway, a straight grip/straight limb Hill style bow, providing you shoot them like Hill or Schulz, can give the ability to get an accurate shot off with fluid quickness. I have been shooting longbows for many years and I can honestly say that it is perhaps more about the bows grip and the shooting style than the actual final limb shape. A reflex/deflex bow with a dark wood riser, with is low wrist grip can be shot with that form just as well as the standard Hill style bow. For some there may more forgiveness in the release with the string follow or the straight limb, either my release is good or I am not a good enough shot to tell the difference, I do not know. The handling of the Hill is really where it's at, that flat sided grip really becomes a part you after a while. However, if you want to shoot a longbow with form that is the same as your recurve, you would be happiest with that NM Baraga with his custom grip.
Bljorn I meant overall performance like you said not just speed
Paven so is a string follow or straight bow more forgiving than a R/ D . I know preference is always the answer here but two different designs all else being equal there should be a difference .
I shoot both styles but truly prefer the straight limb. IMO they are quieter and I shoot them better than any other style. Yes they are slower, but at my 25 and in hunting range I cant really tell much difference.
Pavan is probably right about the grip. I can shoot a medium or high wrist accurately, but it is not comfortable to me.
I will answer with examples of my own bows. I have a Grooves Spitfire recurve that is stated 47 at 28, that man that sold it said it was 49 at 28. With a three strand flemish B50, my own very tight make, it is 45 pounds at 27", I weighed it with weights hanging on similated rope fingers. I had a string follow for a while, with the same arrow a 50 pound cedar cut to 27" bop with 145 grain point the 56@27" string follow would shoot those same shafts, but it needed 160 grain points to fly. My Robertson right hand Purist which is 52 at 26 with a fast flight will barely shoot those same arrows with 145 grains up front, it is better with 125 grains up front. My left hand Robertson long bow that I pull to 51 pounds or 50 pounds depending on how stiff my neck is will shoot those shafts perfectly. My reflex Hill style bow that is 55 at 26&1/4" of my own tiller will also shoot these arrows with 145 up front. Now for the shooting. If I lock out my right arm to get that left hand recurve to a maximum draw, even though it has virtually no hand shock, it bites me in the bowarm elbow. If I accidently load up my ring finger going for over a 27" draw with the recurve, my arrows will porpoise and nor be accurate. With the string follow that did not happen, nor does it happen with my two 62" Robertsons or any of my reflex Hill style bows. None of these longbows have much handshock with fast flight strings, the string follow with the B50 string had more. The one thing that notice with the Robertsons versus the Hill style bows is that the arrow needs to be at least 1/16" higher nocking point than the Hill styles, which is exactly 1/8", I tillered them to be that way. If you choose to get a NM Hill style bow or a reverse, look very closely how Hill holds his bow and how he bends his left arm. If you have been shooting a recurve with a fairly straight arm that will equal a loss in draw length of an inch or more when shooting the straight grip bow. You may very well find that you are much more accurate with the straight grip if you intentionally bend the arm and duplicate the Hill form with the Hill bow. However, a Hill style bow can be shot with different form that is more like a standard recurve form. I believe that when doing that you will not get to the advantages of the entire Hill concept, which is the ability to get off an accurate shot with very diverse situations. Even then it is more about the form than the final shape of the limbs, a longer straighter gripped R/D can take those same shots when using that same form and I would bet that only Howard Hill could tell which one was more accurate, I cannot. My son swears the best shooting bow he has ever shot was a NM Whisper, but he said the NM superior was faster, but still not quite as fast as his 64" Robertson. The question is which one would work best for you and what are able to do or willing to do to adjust to any particular bow. The problem is they all work.
I have had a few different styles of bows; some were good, some not so good. There probably are a lot of nice shooting ones out there, but I much prefer the style of a Herb Meland Pronghorn for comfortable shooting, however it is classified.
Reflex/Deflex!
For me it's kinda like fishing, as long as they are biting I don't care what they are. Make any sense? But I do like the looks of my northern mist classic over my r/d bows.
I really prefer what I would call a semi-aggressive deflex/reflex longbow like the Tomahawk Diamond series or Black Widow's PL's. The have absolutely no handshock, smooth as silk draws, really good arrow speed, and are beautiful bows on top of all that.
I have wanted a tomahawk thunderstorm for a long time they have gotten a little too spendy :eek:
Some degree of r/d, for me.
I like r/d bows because they don't hurt my elbow. Hill bows do. But if you plan to build your own there is nothing easier than building a Hill bow. You can literally use a straight 2x6 for a form and a couple bicycle inner tubes for lam pressure. They are way easier to tiller than board bows or self bows. I think they have a ton of nostalgia as well. And that's pretty important to trad archery in general. I am about to build a couple just cause they are cool. I also like the challenge of building a straight limbed bow without hand shock.
Bonner
There's not much difference between a straight Hill style bow and a mild r/'d bow. Both string up into a D shape, both typically have rather straight grips, most times their arrow shelves will be cut proud of center, and there won't be much difference in performance between them. Now, if you go to a radical r/d, like an ACS, for example, there's a huge difference. Pistol grip if you want it, cut 3/16 past center, and performance that equals or passes many recurves. I have all three designs and like shooting all of them. As others have suggested, try a few bows in the designs in which you are interested to determine which you like best. Good luck.
Check out a Newwood longbow. The Legacy model is a slight R/D but strings in a D shape. These are exceptional bows custom oredered for $419.00. I own a tricked out Legacy and love it. Mine is a 66" 46# @27" and if you didn't know the weight of the bow, based on arrow speed you would think that it were at least a 50# bow. Very fast but suuuuuper smooth and no handshock. The Legacy gives you the best of both worlds at a bargain price. Check Chris Hartwig out at newwoodbows.com.
Warchild.
Thanks for the tip I checked them out they are nice. I liked the look of the legacy. There are some nice bows being made and I'm happy to see that a I can find I truly made custom longbow for around $400 and up.
So are your limbs the same wood as the riser? i did not see what Chris uses for his limbs. In the pics II did not see any black glass. Just wood (veneer?)
How long did it take to get your bow from the time you ordered to the time you received it?
QuoteOriginally posted by Mr. fingers:
I have wanted a tomahawk thunderstorm for a long time they have gotten a little too spendy :eek:
They are a higher priced bow but in my opinion they are definitely worth the money. They shoot incredibly well. I have owned both the diamond series (still with me and ain't going nowhere) and legacy series. They both shot incredibly well the 3 piece takedown system on a longbow just isn't for me. Believe me though it was a fast, smooth, and gorgeous bow. On top off all that Dale and the fine folks at 3rivers go out of their way with their top notch customer service.
"I suppose you could sharpen the straight bow on the end and use it for a spear....."
That's FUNNY!
Honestly I slightly prefer the shooting characteristics of a well made r/d like a Fred Anderson Skookum or Gus D Longriver, but that said there is just something magical about the simplicity and gracefulness of straight end bows to me. If I had to go to just one bow, it would be some iteration of a Hill I think.
QuoteOriginally posted by Mr. fingers:
I am looking for some help at buying a new long bow. I currently shoot a recurve . I read an article by Joe Blake on the best of both worlds so off that I am leaning to the r/d. But a lot do you guys prefer the straight or D
Which style do you prefer and why please include pros and cons of both ? And which do you think would be best for me to try?
Thank you.
Tim.
For me hybrid longbows are it!
Reasons: smooth, fast, silent, quiet, no chance on limb twists.
Mostly they have a comfortable grip and are cut close to center or even over it, making the bow very spine tolerant.
For me they represent the best out of two worlds.
They come in one pce and 3 pce. 3pc comes in very handy when you travel a lot or prefer a heigher mass.
Further: what Kirk said, times 2! :)
I think its a personell choice.Some are gonna like R&Ds more.
Some archers/bowhunters shoot straighter limbs bows better and prefer them.They do have a nostolgic and romantic quality that gets into many archers blood.I can understand that.
I have owned many mild R&Ds and many moderate to radical R&Ds.They are great bows and a superb design.Some models can be kinda twitchy and demand better shot execution by the archer IMO.
I currantly shoot an Edge by Liberty,a Skookem Special by Fred Anderson and a whippenstick.All are great bows.These 3 go from mild to moderate to more radical.All shoot superb.
The GN Traditionalist I am shooting right now is almost straight.But has some mild reflex.It has trapezoid and tapered lamintations.Its a very stable bow and honestly surprisingly quick.Its also dead quiet with little handshock.A superb bow in the straighter category!Thier are others that shoot very well.
Tim, if you are a Howard Hill fan or enjoy reading about the archers of that time period and feel a kinship with them, you probably will want the straight longbow. Otherwise I would go with the r/d longbow. I think it is easier to shoot.
I shoot both but enjoy shooting the "D" bow the most.
Oh I admire all those guys but I want a bow I can shoot . Accuracy forgiving and quiet . Speed is not that,important and I know accuracy comes from the shooter no hand shock is also important. I here some of the straight designs can be punishing. Then again I hear some straight bows can have little to no handshock too.I have been looking at the Bama bows but can't decide between the hunter or the expedition hunter.
As far as the tomahawk bows I know they are probably worth the price but I just don't have that kind of money right now wish I did 3rivers has excellent service and I like doing business with them a lot.
I'm really appreciating all the input on this subject so for that thank you. Keep em coming please.
Tim
I keep hearing fans of D shape and mild rd longbow mention heavily reflexed longbows are unstable vertically and unforgiving to release errors. How true is that? Those who shoot Big Jim, Kanati, Black Creek, Thunderstick, Caribow, Treadway....Do you find this lack of forgiveness or is it just the case of a shorter bow being inherently less forgiving?
Nativestranger: To me, a short bow is less stable than a longer one. I draw 29, and if I try to shoot anything below 62", my form has to be just right. Not everyone has this problem but most of the really good shots I,ve been around shoot a longer bow. I shoot best with a 66 or 68" hill style that I make. I made my wife a 56" hybrid "treestand" bow and she shoots it great, but she draws 26". I think that ratio between bow length and bow length has a lot to do with it.
I like them both, altho I shoot mostly the D/R so I guess I prefer them. I get a little shorter bow and generally a bit more performance.
QuoteOriginally posted by damascusdave:
I have never owned or even shot a longbow that is not reflex/deflex (or is that deflex/reflex)...
Never have figured how the name reflex/deflex came to describe the bows many of us shoot. IMO, it is deflex/reflex. The name should describe the bow. The limbs deflex off the riser and then reflex midlimb towards the tips. Reflex/deflex describes one of those Cupid bows.
Don't shoot me but I think it's a lot like rifles. Some people like a .243 & others like a .30-06 AI. The deer don't know the difference so shoot what you like the best.
I own and shoot 5 Massie R&D "Longhorns", 3 of which are take downs, 4 Howard Hill bows (3 takedowns)made by Craig, and a Jim Belcher "Union Jack". When its time to kill something I always pick up a Hill style bow.I like the way they feel in my hand. They point quick, shoot straight,are easy to carry and extremely quiet. I like take downns because of the extra mass in the grip area. I've not shot an R&D type bow I preferred over my Massie "Longhorns", and I hunt with and shoot my "Longhorns" on a regular basis, but as I said above, when somethings got to die I always end up with a Hill style bow in the truck. Good luck in your quest. Enjoy the ride. :archer2:
I just got a Baraga from Riverrat. I have to say it is sweet. I had tried another a while back and think I was overbowed so I didn't shoot it well. This mildly R/D bow shoots like a dream. I can't imagine a better shooting bow. Of course I've never shot a straight bow, if those are better....WOW.
I like all longbows but the fact is hybrids shoot best. I am shooting a Mohawk now and love it. My 21 Century shoots a little better. I have had Shulz and HH strait limbs along with others and my home made hickory pyramid style selfbows shoot as good as they did. It really does boil down to personal preference. I love recurves but hate stringers so all in all I think hybrids perform best but DR D shapes are a great balance.
R/D all the way, for me. I think it is a "feel" thing.
Bisch
The transition from recurve to R/D might be easier, but I'll bet that you will own and shoot both styles . . . and then dabble in recurves again. They are all fun, just different.
Montana bows (Toelke) makes a nice shooting D bow. They are narrow with multi-core woods and have back-set toward the ends. If I lay my Toelke D bow down flat, the riser is about 3/4 inch off the ground. Its a pretty fast shooter also. Maybe a bit of pulse in the hand but I wouldn't consider it handshock. My tender bow shoulder has no issues with this design. The Toelke R/D Whip is smoother and a touch faster. Still I prefer his D bows. Don't know why exactly.
Todd,
Would Your D bow be considered a string follow design?
Tim, back set is the opposite of string follow. I cropped an image here that shows the top limbs back set.
(http://i1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii498/tzolkosky/Black%20D/IMG_20130428_114758_zpscec53f0c.jpg)
Here is the same bow with back-set (l)next to a Dwyer Original (r) which is a D bow that has mild r/d . This Dwyer I believe is the type Bullfrog loves and rightly so, a smooth performer with an awesome grip. Bottom is a picture of them strung. Notice the difference. Both are 66" bows. (http://i1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii498/tzolkosky/Black%20D/2013-03-15_16-06-26_346-1_zpsc29b67c5.jpg)
(http://i1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii498/tzolkosky/Black%20D/2013-03-15_16-03-55_97-1_zps3eee3be1.jpg)
Todd,
Thank you for thé explanaition and taking the time to take thé pictures. Very informative.
Nice bows by thé way
Tim