I just read George's letter in the latest issue of TBM. I couldn't agree more with his point of view regarding the DAS bow and traditional archery. Thanks for setting the record straight regarding the history of traditional bows.
Tim
Couldn't agree more. The gent who wrote the letter condemning 3R and the DAS Bow was long on wind & short on facts. I remember the aluminium riser bows back in the 60's & 70's very well. Somehow, they didn't ruin Traditional archery.
I personally think the DAS Bow is pretty darn cool and I would love to try one. Clearly it's not for everyone, but I've yet to hear anyone who owns one who doesn't like it.
I've found that thing thing about judging the next guy or his tackle as not Trad is that there's always someone who will judge you in turn. About the time you think you are the epitome of Trad, some guy who hunts barefoot in a loincloth will condemn you as a clothes wearin' pansie, count on it...
I am with ya on that NDTerminator just because your set in your ways shouldnt mean others have to be the bad guy because they try something diffrent . some people are self centered in my opinion
George wrote a great response, and I agree. While the DAS bows don't appeal to me, the fact that others enjoy them doesn't bother me at all. I never understood dogging another fella's bow.
By the way, the owner/inventor(his name escapes me) appears to be a brilliant engineer, who could have applied his genius to compounds or crossbows. I for one, appreciate the fact that he has a love and respect for traditional archery.
David Sosa is the engineer/creator of the DAS Risers and you are right Roger he could have very easily applied his skills to an entirely different branch of archery and we would have been the poorer for it.
Great letter George! It needed to be said, and published.
Jerry
I agree. Great response. The only thing I can say about the original letter is, well...everyone's entitled to their opinions (no matter how silly).
Look forward to reading it - George always seems to be a level headed fellow.
Of course...that' if my copy ever gets here!! :help:
.
Hmmm. I just got mine today. What the heck am I doing here?
Killdeer :knothead:
I have an old Proline recurve from the early 70's with a metal riser. I don't shoot it much (prefer my longbow) but I wouldn't part with it. I don't use a lot of the things people class as traditional but I can't be-grudge others.
I use carbon arrows on my longbow. I have a GPS tucked into my rustic leather possibles bag. I wear high tech warm boots with my "Trad guy" wool clothes. I'm typing these thoughts on a wireless laptop computer.
DAS bow shooters are as traditional as I am.
LOL,,Roger,,
different strokes for different folks. what a dull and boring place this earth would be if we were all just a like....maybe that's why God gave us a brain, guess some just haven't figured out what good use of that gray matter is...
give'em #$!! George....
QuoteOriginally posted by Roger Norris:
DAS bow shooters are as traditional as I am.
Even the ones with "chicken legs"? :readit:
Good one George! I'm glad they posted the letters they did. :) There was another DAS hater in there, but there were also 2 responses, so it was fair. God bless,
Craig
I have never even held a das bow in my hand but I think its pretty pitiful when someone downs another trad shooter because of the material used in there bows what about the guys out there useing wooden bows that have carbon in the limbs ? why is it that one person says ok you have a diffrent bow than mine so you shouldnt be able to shoot in my class of shooters . maybe its denial who knows .
Devil's advocate here. There's irony in faulting a fellow for suggesting traditional archery should remain, well, traditional. Are they bashing DAS bows? No. They are bashing the idea that continuing to modernize and make this sport easier is acceptable.
Imagine my surprise when I purchased the Traditional Bowyer's Bibles only to learn glass bows were "modern" archery. What? I'm not traditional? Those fine fellows sure deserve a good thrashing for suggesting such a thing.
A traditional bow is traditional as long as it's a longbow, a recurve, or some variant of the two. Oh really. A 40# bow of today has the cast of a 60# bow of yesterday. Will a 20# bow of tomorrow have the cast of a 60# bow today?
What is traditional? Seems to be whatever is acceptable to whomever you're speaking based on whatever their preference is. Shocking isn't it. Imagine such a mindset in this day and age.
I think I like Jay Massey's version better. Even if it makes me "modern". At least I can see the line.
George is one of my favorite people. I read everything he writes. That being said;
I agree with Molson on that point. The idea of the DAS metal riser and plinger rest to me is the start of the slippery slope ideal. As George pointed out from the historical perspective, this is all acceptable. History is also repeatable. See what the "gadgets" morphed into before? And really, there's just no reason to have a plunger rest. It's easier to tune the bow for different arrows. No big deal really.
"What is traditional? Seems to be whatever is acceptable to whomever you're speaking based on whatever their preference is. Shocking isn't it. Imagine such a mindset in this day and age."
I don't know what bows you and Biggie shoot, but unless they are self bows with all natural string, you are utilizing the same modern technologies that DAS is.
The "I'm more traditional than you" wars crack me up. Who cares?
this might be a stupid question, but do any of you really care what bow i shoot? my point to this is that if i shoot a self bow with natural strings and you shoot a DAS are you a better person or should i say a better hunter?
in truth i don't care if someone else is a better hunter or worse for that matter. all i care about is me and my ethics in the woods. when my best friend kills a nice deer with his compound we celebrate the hunt not what kind of bow he was was not using.
in my opinion we need to worry more about ourself and our equipment and not the next guy and what he shoots. if Mr. X is shooting a DAS bow because it makes him a better shot thus more likely to succeed when hunting is that not the goal.
should each of us so called "traditional" bowhunters bash compounders because they don't hunt the "hard way"? like my dad would always say to me when i was a young lad, "Don't worry about what someone else is doing, worry about yourself".
we can pick each others equipment apart until we are blue in the face and we will still be at the same place, hunting with the tools that we feel the most confident with.
metal risers, metal broadheads, plastic nocks, carbon or aluminum arrows, fast flight strings and on and on. maybe we should all just go live in a cave and run around barefoot. stepping down off the high horse now, fire away!
I shoot what I like and don't care what anyone else thinks. I don't owe them nothing.
QuoteOriginally posted by Killdeer:
Hmmm. I just got mine today. What the heck am I doing here?
Killdeer :knothead:
TB mag. or DAS?
:bigsmyl:
QuoteOriginally posted by Roger Norris:
"What is traditional? Seems to be whatever is acceptable to whomever you're speaking based on whatever their preference is. Shocking isn't it. Imagine such a mindset in this day and age."
I don't know what bows you and Biggie shoot, but unless they are self bows with all natural string, you are utilizing the same modern technologies that DAS is.
The "I'm more traditional than you" wars crack me up. Who cares?
:clapper:
I don't know if I buy into this because it was shot or used before compounds its traditional.
I guess releases would have to considered as traditional I remember archers using rope releases way before compounds,what the heck a mechanical release is along the same lines as the rope so I guess that would be traditional too.
Is todays traditional archer that chooses to use a Metal bow with elevated rest, plunger button,release,carbon arrows with presharpened replacable blades just as traditional,more so, not as much, as the longbow with wood arrows and a self sharpen 2 bladed head?
Seems to be differing degrees for different archers. For me just because something exsisted in a certain time period doesn't automaticaly qualify it as traditional archery.
Good post by molson and biggie
Traditional archery made its comeback by promoting an image. That image was clearly drawn, and bashing high-tech, modern gadget, instant archery was all a part of it. Anyone who's been doing this for awhile knows that.
As traditional archery grows, the image fades, and the lines blur. Those who participate allow this to happen. With each new member comes a new set of values and a new idea of what is acceptable.
Human nature dictates that, sooner or later, the wheel will begin to re-invent itself. We, those who participate in this sport, get to decide how many spokes we lace in.
***DISCLAIMER***
This is just an opinion. Yours may be different. This is not about DAS bows or any other piece of equipment. No attempt was made to define traditional. I like George and his writings. You have a nice bow, and pretty arrows too. :)
Variety boys and girls. It's the spice of life, or so it is said. We overuse the term traditional, as it applies to archery....it is too ambiguous. Actually, that term was never needed until the compound bow came about, so to us old phartes, anything without wheels is old archery...pretty much.
There's nothing wrong with folks agreeing to disagree either...that's all part of this sport as well. I remember all of the discussion in the 60's regarding sights, stabilizers, and all the other devil's tools 8^). Silliness knows know age limit.
If I could, I would have one (at least) of everything hanging on my walls; from Hungarian horn bows to ILF critters. I always have my preferences when it comes to going to the woods, but I am pretty accepting of anything that doesn't have gears, pulleys and cables. And, they cohabitate fairly well.
You don't have to like metal risers, but there is no need to be ignorant of our history. At least be able to acknowledge that they are certainly not new by any stretch of the imagination. If I'm going to spend all day in the woods, I'd just as soon have a longbow or light weight recurve, but there are days when I like shooting the old Shakespeare or Carroll's.
Closed minds have to navigate narrow avenues. It won't hurt a bit to get out into the wide open spaces and see what's been lurking there.
These were all available prior to 1974:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v134/oldearcher46/11180005.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v134/oldearcher46/08300001.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v134/oldearcher46/11180001.jpg)
But here is my favorite this year:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v134/oldearcher46/01010001aa.jpg)
It's from circa 1957.
I think it's time to settle this debate like men. Biggie.......where's them sumo suits. ;)
Don't forget that every "spoke" in the wheel brings their own money to the table...thus allowing a larger pool of vendors, more readily available products, and an ever-increasing amount of research and development funds to be poured into this sport.
I love the simplicity of the stick/string and what it does for me as a person, both in hunting, and in physical conditioning. That's part of why I switched from a compound 'bout six years ago...but I was shooting a stick/string since I was about 8. Then I went the compound route; now I've come full circle.
I'll hunt with anyone from someone in periodic gear to a guy who has a GPS embedded in some micro-capsule in his forehead...shooting a carbon-limbed longbow with a metal riser....made on a CNC>.
As long as I'm enjoying myself and the company, and I can get the kids involved as well, that's what matters to me...
So I can't see the ever-expanding wheel being too bad...or ruining us as a whole. Besides, how much time and technology goes into forums like this and the ability to host/distribute pictures and knowledge on a global scale...
For those of you who want to obtain the "purity" of the traditional way of life, I have nothing but respect and admiration for your skills, and the acts of generosity and kindness that I have experienced here, so I am in no way bashing you at all...I am stating my personal thoughts...
So that being said, let the wheel turn...!
Take Care,
Marc
(who's looking forward to putting an elevated rest and maybe even a new plunger in his new Widow in a week...!)
I'll tell you, when I read the first editorial in TBM, it made me angry. Then I had to laugh at just how simple some folks are. It's the whole pulling the pole from your own eye before noting the splinter in your brother's eye thing over and over again. Having hunted with traditional archery gear for nearly 2 decades I have come to recognize that a little introspection makes this "I'm better because of the type of gear I shoot" philosophy quickly disappear. Sadly, though, some never get it because they have a real NEED to feel superior, or even just adequate. Consequently, they look for ways to drive others down.
It is not terribly difficult to classify so called "traditional bows" or "traditional styles of unaided shooting." It has nothing to do with materials, and everything to do with method. Still, one's choice of equipment does not make him a better human being or even better hunter in and of itself. We verbalize this, but often fail to live it out in our dealings with others. Bowhunting is personal. It always has been always will be. Make decisions which bring you the most satisfaction personally while staying within the bounds of the law, and stop beating up on everyone who can't live up to your own guidelines.
There are few places where it is necessary to ask, "Is this traditional?" and that, I believe, is how it should be. This site is one of those places. Because of the format, they needed to define what is traditional to them, and they have done so well. Basically, "no sights, no wheels". That's easy, and it allows us the freedom to make choices based on our individual preferences and abilities. There are some absolutes in this world, but what type of hunting equipment makes a man a "better man" is not one of them.
I want to commend Mr. Stout for his tactful reply in TBM. It was a breath of fresh air for many of us.
Let me state the obvious, just because I want to! :D I've used this example before.
There are levels to everything we do. I still gun hunt, because I love to carry my Winchester 71, a '51 Marlin 336A in .35 and a few other leverguns. A long shot for me is 150 yards with peep sights.
I hunt with friends that have the latest in rifle, cartridge, materials and a scope just slightly smaller than a sewer pipe, with a magnification about that of the Hubble telescope. 500 yards is certainly not an unreasonable shot for them.
Traditional archery is much the same way. There are always those that will jump on the latest technology and push the envelope in materials, design and distance. I'm guess I'm somewhere in the middle.
My longbows and recurves are backed with fiberglass, but the severity of reflex and deflex in them would be considered old school. I shoot wood arrows and feathers off a low shelf rest, just above my hand. I wouldn't want a metal handled bow, just because I love the beauty of wood.
So after all this rambling, I'm grateful I can shoot what I want and feel the joy of flinging an arrow and watching it soar. George seems to be pointing out the same thing, among other great points!