Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Roverrich on April 01, 2013, 07:08:00 PM
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So I'm on this quest towards Archery nirvana. I used to shoot a compound years ago and two years ago bought a recurve. I've since then been buying/trying different bows trying to find "The One". I seem to like them all, but some seem to be more "accurate" and consistent than others.
This got me to thinking (scary), what makes one bow more accurate than another? I can pick up one bow and be much more consistent and accurate than another one of similar style but from a different bowyer. Is the accuracy something intrinsic to the bow or more to me and what fits me better? Inquiring minds would like your collective opinions. Thanks.
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The archer makes the bow accurate, some bows just fit better for some people.
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It is what fits you better. The grip is paramount, and finding one that suits you will go a long way toward improving your accuracy. Another major factor is having arrows that are tuned to the bow. Find a bow that fits your personal style, and match arrows to it, and just about any bow is capable of being supremely accurate.
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I think it is a combination of both. You have to start with something that is of good quality, however the remainder is how well it "fits". If you have a good "fit", then that instills confidence....resulting in improved accuracy.
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Whatever fits you best, granted some bows are better made than others but I wouldnt say that this bow is a better "shooter" than that bow, maybe the bow fits my "style" better. Good Luck in finding "your" bow!!!! :archer:
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I think there are number of factors that can be present in most all the bows that have been around a while. Cyclic-Rivers hit on to the real answer...fit. Bows tend to be individual choices, and most of the reasons for choosing a particular bow is subjective.
I tend to be like you and am continually looking for "the one". That's a big part of the fun in archery for me.
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Originally posted by Cyclic-Rivers:
The archer makes the bow accurate, some bows just fit better for some people.
This^^^^
Bisch
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The answer is individual to the archer. My Nirvana bow will never be yours. To put it in perspective no two bows that may look the same, made by the same bowyer with the same woods are not perfectly equal. That is the nature of the wood, which means your search will be endless. In reality many bows will fit your need and many will perform more than capably if you do your job.
For me I am more comfortable with a simple longbow, but again that's me.
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Design and grip. The grip has to fit so you don't think about it. It's all about the grip. A grip is a very personal thing, what works for you might not work for me. If the grip is right---just point and shoot, you'll know when you put a few arrows through it. A grip can vary on bows from the same bowyer, they freehand them and each can have subtle differences.
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Byron Ferguson says the arrow is the most important. Who am I to argue with such a great archer.
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Confidence!!!
Like stated above, if the grip fits and arrows are tuned, the shooter will be more confident in the equipment.
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Originally posted by Cyclic-Rivers:
The archer makes the bow accurate, some bows just fit better for some people.
Another item that makes a great difference is are you tuning your arrows to the bow or shooting the same ones from them all????
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There is a reason that longbows and recurves are in different classes in tournaments, which is because recurve shooters generally turn in higher scores than longbow shooters. The same could be said of long target recurves compared with short hunting recurves. Or, straight-limbed Hill style longbows compared with reflex/deflex longbows with contoured grips. Of course, if a person works hard enough, and is talented enough, like Howard Hill, then he may quite possibly outshoot people in classes that normally turn in higher scores, because there is more difference among archers than there is among bows. Many people stay with a class of bows that might be considered more difficult to shoot simply because they like them better, for similar reasons that they chose archery over rifle shooting to start with.
But within a general category of bows, my experience is that you will find some bows that you will be able to shoot better than other bows. Other people will have different opinions, fortunately for the many fine bowyers out there. However, I think most everyone would agree that if you picked one good bow in a weight range that fit you and stuck with that bow, you would end up shooting better than if you tried a lot of bows looking for "nirvana," as you put it. But what's the fun in that?
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Originally posted by Whip:
It is what fits you better. The grip is paramount, and finding one that suits you will go a long way toward improving your accuracy. Another major factor is having arrows that are tuned to the bow. Find a bow that fits your personal style, and match arrows to it, and just about any bow is capable of being supremely accurate.
Dittos!! I used to work at a pretty ritzy Trap&Skeet club. I saw some of the top shooters in the world. Some shot Remingtons, and some shot $15,000 Perrazis.
The manager at the club liked to say, "If you can break them with a $10 gun, the shoot a $10 gun".
It's all about what fits you and what you WANT to shoot.
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The one using it!
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Too many things to list but I am of the opinion that yourself has as much or more to do with it than anything. I also agree with everything said above.
As far as the bow goes, I'm sure the Koreans, who have likely spent millions of dollars on R&D for bow design and technology, might have something to say about it. A good technical read just recently posted by Bill Carlson can be found here http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~archery/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Fundamentals-of-the-Design-of-Olympic-Recurve-Bows.pdf
Good topic
Kris
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The SHOOTER, Always the Shooter!
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Originally posted by SERGIO VENNERI:
The SHOOTER, Always the Shooter!
I agree totally.
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I kind of agree that the arrow is the most important. If the arrow is matched perfectly to the archer and the bow, accuracy comes much easier. A good grip and a well tuned arrow makes the best archer. Shawn
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It is the nature of the beast, as humans, that we debate, quibble and expend much energy over a possible 1 to 2 % edge; when in fact, over 90% of what is actually available to improve upon lies quietly -patiently waiting for many of us to address our own shooting inadequacies.
The personal grip requirement is paramount and not far beyond that, much of what improves accuracy may never be accurately ascertained due to our own less than optimum shot execution.
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Well, every thing that everyone said above, but I notice when I shoot a bow extremely well versus any other, it's because I can pick up my site window more easily and consistently. In other words, it fits one better and then one can just have better line up according to their form
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Unless it's a bad fit from the start, almost all bows are very accurate for the first two weeks you own them. I think it has to do with the shooter's heightened level of concentration.
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the mass weight of a recurve seems to help me as well as the recurve grip.. I REALLY want to shoot my longbow as well or better than a recurve but in alot of years i just cant make that happen,the recurve always wins out..I have found a recurve grip that works and have stuck with that. So I guess for me its a combination of the right bow weight, mass weight and grip... but we all are diffrent
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Originally posted by Friend:
It is the nature of the beast, as humans, that we debate, quibble and expend much energy over a possible 1 to 2 % edge; when in fact, over 90% of what is actually available to improve upon lies quietly -patiently waiting for many of us to address our own shooting inadequacies.
The personal grip requirement is paramount and not far beyond that, much of what improves accuracy may never be accurately ascertained due to our own less than optimum shot execution.
I agree with pretty much everyone who chimed in. However I really liked this answer.
I would say this. (I'm long winded) :p
If we took 100 bows. From 100 different bow makers they would all say. That thier bow is perfectly accurate. And I bet if we hooked those bows up to a shooting machine. Where there is a perfect form and release set up with the perfect match arrow they would all shoot relatively the same. Or with the same accuracy.
When the bow is left up to human error. That's when things lose consistency and in this case accuracy. The only thing we can do therefore is find the bow or grip that suits our style and comfort. This takes MUCH trial and error. Meaning you need to run through a certain number of bow styles to really find what works. Now this is the biggest lesson I've learned and expensive.
It's not always the bow we like aesthetically that works the best for us. For example. I love "D" shaped long bows and self bows. But I can't shoot them to save my life. But I can shoot a modern high grip RD long bow and recurve just fine. And not necessarily like the way they look. Funny.
ALL said. I firmly believe that accuracy is super dependent on the arrow chosen. If its not perfectly matched. You'll be wasting much time chasing it. And sacrificing form to put the arrow where it wants to go. Instead of where you intend it to go.
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Originally posted by Bisch:
Originally posted by Cyclic-Rivers:
The archer makes the bow accurate, some bows just fit better for some people.
This^^^^
Bisch [/b]
I also think this.
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Originally posted by Roverrich:
. . . what makes one bow more accurate than another?
What makes one pair of boots feel better than another?
What makes one fishing pole catch more fish than another?
What makes one girl a better kisser than another?
Fit, practice and your own preconceived expectations.
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I don't know,but do know you don't bet aganist the the guy who owns only ONE bow with pretty arrows.
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The archer makes the bow accurate. He is responsible for whether or not the arrow hits it's mark.
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Thanks guys, clearly the consensus is the archer is what makes a "bow" more accurate, but is sure is fun to try different bows!!! I think I'm narrowing things down and hopefully my lovely wife will continue to tolerate my pleasure spending until I can settle on one or two bows. Cheers
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Good archers can pick up any style of bow and shoot it consistently, right off the bat. I think it is because they put all their concentration into the shot sequence. They focus on the target and their form not how the grip feels, finger pinch, stack, bow length, etc.
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HUNGER. Think about that one for a while.
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HUNGER. Think about that one for a while.
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when you have a properly tuned bow that cost 100.
an a properly tuned bow that cost 1000. they can both do the same.one may be faster but if you spent a year with both you could achive the same things with them.I think it really comes down to the mind set an skill of the shooter.tradshooting is a mind set that is why some days we shoot good an some days we shoot bad its all in how you feel on any given day.
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Some will always say it's the archer that determines accuracy. But give a good archer a lightweight self bow and a big metal riser recurve and I will bet he will be a lot more accurate with the recurve. It's to do with forgiveness of a bow to the users errors.
A forgiving bow is one that is easy to draw and hold at anchor yet generate good level of performance, doesn't pinch the fingers, easy to hold on target, doesn't jump or jerk upon release, resists users bow arm twitches and torques. A bow with fast efficient limbs and big heavy riser comes to mind. But take the concept to the extreme and what you get is a compound bow.
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Have to agree with the majority. Its the indian not the arrow. There are some high performance bows out there today, but it still requires an individual to make them perform. More practice = better accuracy too! :archer2:
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Originally posted by Whip:
It is what fits you better. The grip is paramount, and finding one that suits you will go a long way toward improving your accuracy. Another major factor is having arrows that are tuned to the bow. Find a bow that fits your personal style, and match arrows to it, and just about any bow is capable of being supremely accurate.
+1 on this one
I for one do not think I will ever buy a bow that I have not shot first. The more bows that I shoot the more I realize how personalized a bow can be. I still shoot my old Bear Kodiak the best.
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Originally posted by Holm-Made:
Good archers can pick up any style of bow and shoot it consistently, right off the bat. I think it is because they put all their concentration into the shot sequence. They focus on the target and their form not how the grip feels, finger pinch, stack, bow length, etc.
+1 to that.
Definitely archer/arrows prime. Bow second, but certainly not all bows are created equal. Grip, limb design, all factors. There are ugly bows that are shooters and ugly bows that are well, crap...and pretty bows that are just pretty hunks of wood, and also pretty bows that are shooters because of good engineering.
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I once had two seemingly identical longbows I built, though one shot where I was looking and one did not. I looked the shelves over carefully and noticed one shelf and grip relationship allowed the arrow to lie close along side my bowhand index finger when I extended my finger thus shooting where i was looking/pointing by giving me a straight line sight picture. Since then I've tweaked my shelves taking them in or using shelf material to move them out slightly to shoot where I'm looking. Seemed like half the battle was won. Another reason to shoot before buying or have the bowyer help you custom allign, or tweaking yourself.
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The bow doesn't change from shot to shot. The archer is the only variable. All bows are equally accurate; they all shoot exactly where you tell them to. The grip/fit may effect the archer, but a miss is a miss by the archer, not the bow.
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in archery tackle terms, the arrow is far more important than the bow. :readit:
after acquiring matched and consistent arrows that fly reasonably well out of a bow, the rest is up to the archer & form.
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The correct arrow for the bow and the person shooting it.
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Most any bow with the right arrows to match the archers draw is capable of shooting better than the archers ability. One example, I have seen beautiful bows in my travels that have "noodle limbs" vertically unstable that were shot accurrately.
Choose longbow or recurve, then buy what you like that does'nt stack at your draw from a guy that has a good track record. Like others have said, it begins with the right arrow for the bow and you. The rest is up to you.
Lou
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The hands that hold the grip and the string. And the arrow has to be right.
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I see it in other shooting sports. The person buys a fancy trap gun, the regulation is perfect(while using sights),and it throws a perfect pattern. The problem is on the range or in the field the person can't hit nothing. Solution-get rid of it or do stock work.(Maybe he can change loads but he already gets good "flight".) A compounder just moves the pin all else being equal. Match the bow to the archer not the archer to the bow. I have a Howatt recurve that shot a perfect arrow just not where I was looking so I built out the shelf one thickness and it drove tacks. Fred Bear did it and he could had any bow but tweeked to change his point of hitting what he was looking at. If you already own a bow that doesn't shoot for you it can't hurt to try. Form and good arrows come first but a bow fitting you is equal.
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I was thinking when someone else shoots it.
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I agree with a lot of what has been said, but there is a lot to be said about the bow and not the archer like the right grip, mass weight, cut past center, and limb stability. After all olympic archers don't shot just any old bows.
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Once the bow is properly tuned it's the person behind it.
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YOU and only YOU. It's as simple as that or as difficult as that. I would say consistence above all else. MIKE
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Originally posted by BWD:
Unless it's a bad fit from the start, almost all bows are very accurate for the first two weeks you own them. I think it has to do with the shooter's heightened level of concentration.
Yes, How true.
I guess we are assuming the bow was properly made.
I remember having a Black Widow that really shot accurate, so I decided to have the same model made with all the same woods and glass. Exactly the same. This new bow I hated it. It didn't feel good for me. Since it didn't feel good it wasn't accurate. The bow has to feel good to the shooter.
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Most of the time it is the man holding it.
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Originally posted by Cyclic-Rivers:
The archer makes the bow accurate, some bows just fit better for some people.
I don't know which number I am to agree with this, but it is the truth. There will not be a bow that is the most accurate for everyone as everyone is different.
Everything that gets a person/bow combination accurate is in the hands or mind of the shooter. Fit, feel, tuning, shot execution, everything... There are a lot of different bow designs out there, and really the only way for you to know what works for you is to try them.
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If you think it's the best shootin bow in the world, then it will be....
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What makes a bow accurate? The archer and the arrows mainly. Any bow can be shot accurately as long as you shoot it enough to get used to it.
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I think bow accuracy is mostly effected by the string actuator! How well the bow fits as far as length, weight etc makes a huge difference, but good repeatable form trumps all in my opinion.
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If we are talking about the bow itself, there are some bows that are more forgiving to a less than perfect release, but you have to reach an advanced level of consistency before that becomes a serious factor.
Consistency and Repeatability
Is what makes an "Archer" accurate. To find a bow that helps you become more consistent, or have one custom built to fit you is a large step in the right direction......But...
Matching the arrows to the bow....
Is critical....
Good form with a solid anchor
comes next.....
Bottom line is that it's the archer that makes the bow accurate.... But some bows are a bit more forgiving of our errors, or misjudged yardage estimates.
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Bows aren't necessarily accurate but arrows sure can be. It takes a pretty bad bow to shoot poorly with properly matched arrows.
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Heres my take on this. Ive got many different bows of different styles, some old, some new, some cut to center, past center, or no shelf at all but the one common denominator that makes ALL of them accurate, is properly matched shafts for each and every one. Ive yet to find a bow that was NOT accurate, so long as the arrow is properly matched to the bow, the bow is set up correct and consistent form and follow thru are executed.
There are a lot of great bows out there, but none of them will ever shoot to there full potential without the investment of time to find the proper shaft, for it is the properly flying shaft that gets the job done, as the bow just supplies the energy to propel it.
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Years ago, i used a shooting machine. With my BW target bow it was pretty good, but at times i got tighter groups at 45 yards than the machine. we padded the clamp with rubber and then if we tried to shoot four arrows the third or fourth arrow would break an arrow in the target. I tried a heavy Hill longbow and if it was slightly canted it was just as good as the target bow. we could not get a 48" recurve to work very good at all. Not saying that all short bows are not accurate, because my wife's 54" hybrid seems planety good out to 40 yards. But on the whole I would bet the average would be for a longer length for most shooters. if you find a bow that you don't mess up its action when shooting and you have the perfect arrow for it, that would be the accurate bow.
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Question of the thread: What makes a bow accurate?
Answer. perfect timing, great stability verticaly and horizontaly, and a bowyer that knows how to do these things. Add a great fit to the hand and style of the shooter, good fletch clearance and you will have an accurate bow.
This leaves the most important factor if you have arrows that are a perfect match for this great bow.
The shooter , this is a different topic though and thoroughly worthy of discussion.
All bows are not equal even when built by the same builder. Some bows are better bows. Period.
God bless you, Steve
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I agree with a lot already written. Surely proper and consistent form and well tuned arrows are important.
I have spent considerable time with a few dozen curves the past 3.5 years looking fir a compatible rig. A few are very definitely more accurate for me. A couple were so finicky I hated them and others loved them.
I think there is more in the bow than a lot give credit. I think a bowyer, if he wanted, could make a bad shooting bow by having a torque inducing grip, wrong tiller, unstable limbs, bad balance, etc. So, if a bad one can be built it would stand to reason that good ones are by design.
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One thing I've not seen mentioned is shot to shot consistency.
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Originally posted by BDann:
The one using it! [/QUOTE
the bottom line is what this man said! everything else like smoothness or shock, or grip, or design means absolutely nothing in how accurate a bow is, if anything the bow's weight can effect the accuracy which can be unique to each individual..
I know some good shots and pretty much every single one of them is a good shot with any style bow its just plain ole common sense,, once they get the hang of that style bow the accuracy comes soon after.
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There is accuracy and then there is accuracy. Its a matter of who and how we define that as to whether or not this post is relevant.
The best shooters in the world have their favorite bows or bow for a reason. Sure they can usually pick of any bow and after a couple of shots shoot very well with it unless its a real lemon. However put a bow in their hand that is tuned, tillered , balanced and fits their hand with the right arrows and magic seems to happen.Groups shrink very noticibly with the right equipment.
God bless you all, Steve
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If I want my bow to shoot more accurately, I let Steve Gorr shoot it.
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[/QB][/QUOTE]
This got me to thinking (scary), what makes one bow more accurate than another? I can pick up one bow and be much more consistent and accurate than another one of similar style but from a different bowyer. Is the accuracy something intrinsic to the bow or more to me and what fits me better? Inquiring minds would like your collective opinions. Thanks. [/QB][/QUOTE]
In my opinon its all about the archer. There are 3 things that a shooter has to have/do to shoot well. Consistancy, focus and practice
A well tuned arrow will help but I feel that with the mentioned 3 a shooter can overcome any inadequeacies. Some bows just naturally fit better than others making it a little easier to shoot well.
Gilbert
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well matched equipment and repeatability
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This question is similar to asking which rifle is the most accurate or which car drives the best. I think it is more than just the person shooting the bow and more than just the arrows. It's a system or a combination of things starting with bow design and construction, how it fits the hand and style of the shooter. The right string must be used. Arrows much be matched to the bow. Then the ability and form of the archer come into play. If any one of these are off, accuracy suffers.
While most all bows are "accurate", some bows do fit the hand or style better than others and are easier to shoot well. So they feel more comfortable without having to make adjustments.
To some degree it's more a question of what is acceptable accuracy. Not many of us are as good at accuracy as a good matched system of bows, arrows, strings, etc. is capable of.
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Phil X2
God bless, Steve
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A buddy of mine has a couple of Olympic archery medals; Sidney and Atlanta.
I heard him tell a class we were teaching that he didn't care how well his arrows flew as long as they grouped well.
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Originally posted by Sixby:
Question of the thread: What makes a bow accurate?
Answer. perfect timing, great stability verticaly and horizontaly, and a bowyer that knows how to do these things. Add a great fit to the hand and style of the shooter, good fletch clearance and you will have an accurate bow.
This leaves the most important factor if you have arrows that are a perfect match for this great bow.
The shooter , this is a different topic though and thoroughly worthy of discussion.
All bows are not equal even when built by the same builder. Some bows are better bows. Period.
God bless you, Steve
x2, thanks for answering the question Steve, ie what makes a BOW more accurate.
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Follow through
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I know there is alot of different things that attribute to accuracy, like well tuned bow, grip and poundage. So for me I'm going to breakdown what works for me in accuracy w a trad bow.
1. Set hand. Grip is so important as what i call my pressure point, its a line that goes down the apex of thumb and forefinger. If you look... the arrows sets right above the apex, so pushing foward at this point helps align the arrow towards the intended target.
2. Pick spot. Once bow hand is set the raising of bow arm until in alignment w target.
3. Draw while still focused on target, but my conscious effort is thinking solid anchor.
4. Once SOLID anchor is achieved it goes to spot, and the most important key for me a slight hold. This forces the bow arm to set while the apex of bow hand is still pushing.
5. Now the release, the back muscle is pulling as i were going to pull the bow in half. Then the relaxing of the string hand concentrating on hand staying on face with a slight slide back. This keeps the energy in a straight line where as plucking the release can cause side to side energy pushing the bow arm to the side. Remember the bow arm is our guide, no matter where you look the arrow goes where the arm goes.
The final the follow through bow arm staying towards the target till arrow connects...nothing more beautiful than a perfect excuted arrow.
In conclusion it so important that i practice this technique shot to shot because when it comes down to that pressure one shot on an animal muscle memory is what the mind relies to achieve the task. Holding the shot for that instance longer helps me to control the bow and the shot instead af the bow and shot controlling me. When i been off a while and start practicing again i do not worry about accuracy...this is erased from my mind period! The fear of missing can cause some serious issues that i want to nip in the butt right away, but a controlled form is more important.
Also remember...Practice don't make perfect, Perfect practice makes perfect.
Have a Bless day
Hang'em Low
George
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My KISS (keep it simple stupid) method:
Archer's form. (perfect practice and repeatability)
Fit of the bow to the archer. (the right bow for you)
Proper tune and bow/arrow set up. (tuning counts for a lot)
In that order.
My 2 cents worth.
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We are going to do a short filming segment on shooting from different angles, to help give a visual on the importance of form.