Recently their has been discussions on TRADGANG about broadhead adapters failures. These are adapters that are used when converting a glue on style broadhead to arrows designed to except screw in points. These adapters are mostly made from steel and aluminum.
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=126739
From data collected , most of the negative performance of these adapters is with arrows exceeding 700 grains which have encountered heavy bone as associated with water buffalo and cape buffalo. It is not commonly reported on deer size animals although I personally experienced the problem after hitting a white tail high in the spine area.
This bending problem is also not just isolated to the adapters used in glue on style broadheads .It is also documented with screw in style broadheads in which the screw post is part of the broadhead. This bending in also not just isolated to adapters made from tool steel but also shows up in aluminum and stainless steel adapters. That brings us to the "Weak Link" which is the screw post its self.
The standard female insert for all arrows aluminum and carbon is a NC 8-32 thread. The standard male thread consist of a threaded section which has a rough diameter of .158 inch or about 5/32 inch. It is almost exclusive in adapter failure to find this 5/32 diameter threaded post bent. There are several suggested solutions to this problem that range from hardened steel, synthetic materials and alloyed steels as material for stronger adapters. All have and will only be methods to strengthen the flimsy 5/32 diameter screw post.
There are options that skirt around the standard adapter and that is a one piece glue in insert adapter combination. These adapters/insert, (one style )can be seen at
http://www.vintagearcheryco.com/shop/. eliminate the post and connection point between arrow and adapter. The strength comes from diameter of the insert .The diameter is only restricted by the arrow size. For example a 5/16 carbon arrow has approximately a .249 inch inside diameter and a 9/32 arrow has an approximate ID of .204 dia. At this date for all big game hunts and until the bending of screw in adapters can be completely solved this is the safest method to potentially eliminate the "weak link".
Titanium is a strong alloy and seems to be everyone's panacea for the problem. Titanium has superior strength compared to it weight. But most grades do not have much more strength than carbon steel. If ones objective is to go light but stronger than aluminum than titanium is a good choice. When shopping for titanium adapters match the grade of the titanium to the game hunted. Most metal charts will show that grade 5 is superior to all others. It is extremely hard to machine the threads in grade 5 and to this date we have not been able to produce a grade 5 adapter that can be produced economically. I am however encouraged as just to day I was put in contact with a machinist that says he can make it. Our proto type will weigh 75 grains. It is solid in the 5 degree taper and the taper is to the max length at 1 inch.
Grade 5 titanium has a yield strength or tensil strength of 120,000 psi this is about twice the strength of mild tool steel and more than two times the yield strength of lower grade titanium
http://www.onlinemetals.com/titaniumguide.cfm
While the adapter/insert combination has had no known failures and is stronger than most other adapters ,or screw on broadheads, it is not as handy as a screw in adapter. However, an archer can solve the problem match with different insert weights and adapter weights so the can replicate the weight of a adapter/insert. Use the screw in set up for practice and the adapter/insert for their hunting arrow. Titanium in the right grade may be a decent alternative.
Great post Joe but I like tapering my wood shafts the full length of the ferule for superior strength. No problems for me. Thanks for a great broad head.
It is possible that lower grade titanium adapters are strong enough to with stand bending. I have not done any testing nor have I had any reports of titanium adapters of any grade bending. My opinion is just based on steel spec sheets. If there is a superior grade however that is the one I want :)
Very interesting, thanks for your work and research.
Joe,what percentage of bent steel adapters were used with aluminum inserts?
Wouldn't a steel insert support the adapter shank and strengthen the whole setup?
Hi Joe
Very good post , thank you for your email, for your concern.
I am sure you will find something that will work .
I will follow your advice.
Pascal
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I don't plan on hunting anything larger than hogs but I have a vested interest in the strength of my arrows! I am looking forward to experiential with the one piece adapters in my continued quest for a sub 700 grain UEfoc arrow for my 50-55 pound bows.
Great post Joe, thanks!!!!
Thanks for the post, Joe. And thanks for doing what you can to give us the strongest setup available.
Very informative post. Thanks
Please keep us updated on the 75gr titanium adapters. I'd be very interested in them.
Joe,
Love the TuffHeads! They are very strong and provide outstanding penetration and cutting, even on big buffaloes. The screw-in adapters are the only problems, and those are made by other vendors. I appreciate you bringing new ideas and materials to the market to get the most reliable products for big and dangerous game where equipment matters most.
Allan
Jim B, That is a good question.i don,t think that any of the arrow set ups had aluminum, inserts . they were arrow designed for dangerous game.
A few of the people that had poor experiences frequent tradgang maybe they will chime in.
As stated I had the same experience when hitting a deer high in the spine area . I was spotting a 53 lb long bow , carbon express 250 arrow , with a 100 grain brass insert,100 grain steel adapter,and a 300 grain TuffHead .The total weight of the arrow wwas 750 grains with a FOC of 27 %
Dr Ashby experienced the same poroblems in his testing and untill he settles on something else he is reccomending the one piece adapter/insert.Not putting words in his mouth but just saw a post on another site about broadheads and that was his reccomendation.
QuoteOriginally posted by vintage archer:
Jim B, That is a good question.i don,t think that any of the arrow set ups had aluminum, inserts . they were arrows designed for dangerous game.
A few of the people that had poor experiences frequent tradgang maybe they will chime in.
As stated I had the same experience when hitting a deer high in the spine area . I was shooting a 53 lb long bow , carbon express 250 arrow , with a 100 grain brass insert,100 grain steel adapter,and a 300 grain TuffHead .The total weight of the arrow wwas 750 grains with a FOC of 27 %
Dr Ashby experienced the same poroblems in his testing and untill he settles on something else he is reccomending the one piece adapter/insert.Not putting words in his mouth but just saw a post on another site about broadheads and that was his reccomendation.
:thumbsup: Spot-on Joe.
Ed
Thanks for the reply Joe and Doc.
Joe,
FWIW, I used a 100 gr. brass insert +200 gr. steel field point, in a GT5575 with an external 2117 3" over-footing...and hit several rocks... no damage.
Then I hit a glancing blow...
What I'd share, in the vein of FWIW, is that on retrieval of the arrow with the glancing blow, the tip would not unscrew as the entire brass insert was BENT... INSIDE the shaft
I use brown hot melt and removed the entire insert and field tip and was amazed to see the whole 100 gr. insert badly bent...finally got the field point out... sweated off the external footing and obviously, there was a small crack in the end of the shaft.
Just amazing that the hardened brass insert also bent! Those arrows were about 615gr total weight.
Will any of those fit the AD Trads...sorry if I missed it...I checked it out on the site...but didn't see them listed. Again, sorry if I missed it.
Great post Joe. I am in the planning stages of building up some buff arrows and will look at both options; your one piece glue in adaptor and the up and coming titanium adapters.
The only reason I like using a screw in style BH over the brass two in one adapters/inserts is that once that arrow is made up it is then solely a hunting arrow, making it hard to use it for range shoots as I like to practice on the 3d range also.
Cheers again for your time and efforts, very much appreciated.
ak.
Oh and I have the same questions as Mr Green with the funny hunting hat!
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
Will any of those fit the AD Trads...sorry if I missed it...I checked it out on the site...but didn't see them listed. Again, sorry if I missed it.
I looked and I didn't see it either Terry. It's a great idea I hope one would fit it.
Terry and Al I checked the 3 rivers web site and did not see where they list the inside diameter of the arrow so I can not answer your question.
Iv used inserts for abs safaris in my arrow dynamics and there nocks fit to
Jim
TTT any new info on the titanium adapters or glue in/ glue on adapters for AD Trads?
James,Tuffhead has the 75 gr,grade 5,titanium ,screw-in adapters listed for sale on their site.
Thanks Jim, I tried to look at their site earlier but for some reason my computer wouldn't open their page now it's working fine. Still would like to know if the glue in/ glue on adapters for the 11/32" shafting will work for AD trads?
I don't know.I've looked and looked and can't find a dimension (I.D.) for those AD's anywhere.Just measuring one insert would give the answer but I don't have any.Can anyone measure an insert?
I suspect,the AD's are going to be somewhere in between 5/16" and 11/32".
JimB, AD inserts are 9/32"
Thanks Daniel.That would equal .28125".Most 5/16" carbon shafts take about a .245-.246 diameter insert.
I can confirm the AD trads inserts are 9/32" equal to .28125" diameter as is the inner diameter of the shafting point end. I just measured one of mine with a pair of electronic calipers.
Well,that's one part of the equation.Hopefully Joe Furlong will see this and can say if any of the adapters will work or maybe someone knows what the actual diameter of the Grizzly Stik inserts is.Tuffhead's 11/32" diameter adapters are sized for them.I believe the Grizzly Stik inside diameters will be smaller,maybe .25 but don't know exactly.
I know on 3Rivers website if you look at the grizzly stick brass adapters someone asked if any would fit the AD's and according to the folks at 3Rivers the inserts for the Alaskan's fit great. I talked to Joe earlier and he did not know the adapters measurements offhand but told me he would check on it. Hopefully they will work.
I didn't know that.I'm confused though because 3Rivers makes a specific size aluminum adapter for AD Trads and a different one for the Grizzly Stiks.
Here is the link to where 3Rivers says the regular screw in brass inserts will work http://www.3riversarchery.com/Product.asp?show=faq&c=3&s=261&p=342&i=6931X#full
Still can't find anything though on the glue in/glue on.
Just got off the phone with Joe Furlong and he said if the screw in inserts will fit so will his glue in/ glue on inserts.