G'day guys,
Well I have been eyeing off the single bevel BHs that are on the market over the last few months after shooting solid 3 blade heads for years. I already have some 160 g Grizzly Kodiaks that look to be a fine head.
In saying that I wanted to see the quality of the Tuff Head as from all accounts is a top quality well made BH. I am in prep from my first trip to Africa this August and this is just part of the fun.
I'd be interested to hear your opinions and see your results of the Tuff Heads on game.
Cheers from Aussie,
ak.
Good luck in Africa! That should be a great trip.
I also am traveling to Africa, I will be going June and July. This is my setup.
225 Grain Tuff Head
50 Grain Titanium insert
50 grain arrow insert
340 Axis Shaft cut to 31"
2 inch footing
total weigh 650 grains
Shooting and ACS pulling 51# at 30"
The Tuff Heads are very inpressive, very big and they come sharp, Joe includes a pack of bandaids with the order.
You will be pleased.
I have ordered the 'Meat Head' broad heads that are 190gs.
My set up is; Arrow Dynamics Traditional shafts, brass inserts,
Meat Head broadheads,
My Huntsmen recurve set at 62# @ my 29" draw.
And a hell of a lot of practice!
I think these are going to weigh in around the 700g mark.
I had planned to hunt with a bunch of GrizzlyStik shafts but for the life of me I could not get these to shoot well at all. Very very disappointed in the spine range, bare shaft turning efforts and not to mention the $$ outlay.
It'll be AD Traditional for carbon shafting from now on as afar as I am concerned.
ak.
I bought some at Kalamazoo and can't waite to try them. I think with 100 grn. brass you will be over 700 grn. depending on your BH adapter weight.
Another option is the brass insert adapter combo.
I got the 225 grn. stainless and they may be the sharpest edge I have ever seen on anything, period.
Abe Penner of Caribow was a field tester for these and shot a bull moose and a bull elk with them. Abe was very impressed with the results.
Any questions you may have, call Joe at Tuffhead, great guy.
Good luck.
I don't think they kill anything deader then your three blades or any other quality broadhead. And penetration won't be magical. Just another good broadhead like the dozens out there already. But they do come very sharp and are very easy to resharpen to that same edge with a couple of pulls through my wheel sharpener.
One thing if you use a bow quiver make sure the hood is long enough to cover them. I cut the heck out of a finger reaching for my bow in the dark in the back of the truck a few months back. The GN quiver hood left an inch of broadhead showing and I found it. Ouch.
I have also heard that to Tom in regards to the customer support, and its always good to see someone stand behind their products.
Al,
The Tuffheads are wonderful broadheads, and Joe Furlong, the developer, is a gem of a man. Being the same basic design, I am sure the lighter Meatheads will perform similarly. I used the 300 grain Tuffheads with a 100 grain adapter in Australia. I also had a 100 grain brass insert and an aluminum footing at the pointy end and unibushings with G-nocks at the other end of my AD Hammerhead Trad shafts. I used 4x4" fletching on the 1000 grain arrows that were shot from my 60" 70#@29.5" Shrew Safari takedown longbow. It was a great combination except for one thing. The steel broadhead adapters were made from relatively soft steel and had a tendency to bend on impact, even when using them with the 300 grain brass glue-on field points that I got from Tuffhead to match the weight of my broadheads. I'm not sure where to get high quality broadhead adapters, but that was the only weak link in the equipment I took. I used an EFA Mesa quiver with the Totem and the Wing accessories. The Mesa held 4 arrows with broadheads and a fifth arrow with a hex head blunt. The Mesa was long enough to cover all but a little of the Tuffheads. The penetration with the Tuffheads on Asiatic Buffalo and Scrub Bulls was as good as or better than anything I have used. I also like the 2 blade VPA broadheads, both the double and single bevel versions, at 300 and 325 grains, respectively.
I have been to Africa to hunt 6 times now, and it is the greatest hunting destination in the world. You are undoubtedly aware that Cape Buffalo are in a different league from the Asiatic Buffalo there in your native Australia as far as aggressiveness and danger, although both are similar in their physical structure. Africa has a very rich diversity of wild game, so there is always something else exciting to hunt! And the weather in their winter months (summer in North America) is very pleasant for hunting. I have always wished I could spend a month there hunting every year during the May through August period.
I had the same experience with Grizzly Stik shafts as you did. I really like the guys at ABS who have done great things for bowhunting, but I greatly prefer the AD shafts in all the Trad models. I shoot almost exclusively AD shafts and have nothing but great things to say about them! I do have my preferences about how they are set up as completed arrows, depending on how I plan to use them and how tough they need to be for the intended purposes.
Allan
G'day Allan ( really cool name BTW) ,
I will be only hunting plains game on this, my first trip to Africa/Nimimba and even then don't have a long list of critters I wish to bag...more so just going to be happy with one good animal on the ground - spot and stalk if I can - and be happy with that. Anything further will be cream on top of the cake and will simply enjoy the place for what it is...Africa.
Thanks for the run down on your arrow set ups. I have a few plans for hunting buff here in Aussie that ill see through soon enough and naturally hunting a cape buff would be one of the best hunts a fella could do with a trad bow. Grizzly bear another.
I am hoping I can use all the Grizzly stik shafts I have over the next few years otherwise I might put them up for sale.
Cheers,
ak.
Sounds like a great set up bud...good luck!!!!
Maybe one of these broadhead adapters would work well. I will probably try various makes of them. The adapters from Vantage Archery are the ones I used (and others used too) that regularly bent! Joe buys them, he doesn't produce them, so their lack of strength is definitely not his fault. The ones below have mostly come to market very recently, probably as a result of the poor quality adapters that were available for awhile.
http://www.abowyer.com/abowyer_adapters.html
http://www.tradout.com/stainless-steel-broadhead-adapters-screw-in
http://www.kustomkingarchery.com/Steel-Broadhead-Adapters-Screw-In/productinfo/4406
http://www.bowproshop.com/broadheads--adapters-premium-steel-broadhead-adapters-75gr-100gr-125gr-sold-separately.html
Allan
Cheers for the links mate. I will look into it.
ak.
Joe Furlong is a heckuva guy, and his broadheads are top notch. I will be taking them to Wyoming this fall, and chasing whitetails around home with Tuff Heads this year.
TUFFHEADS rock!!and joe furlong is top notch!!
deer fell here for seconds and didn't go 35 yrds from this spot!
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/kittitiny/030.jpg)
:eek: :scared:
Wow....that is a hell of a blood trail! Kinda easy to follow the spoor on that tracking job...
ak.
tuffheads are the sharpest heads i've ever bought --out of the pack-i stropped them and hunted--and because of the stainless steel they really stay sharp!!
Here's my TuffHead after breaking a shoulder and passing through my wildebeest last April.
(http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt113/JCHavard/file.jpg)
Great results! John, would you mind sharing details of your bow and arrow set up.
As Allan said, great broadbead and maybe the single bevel out there. The problem is the inserts. I would use titanium if you can get enough weight for tuning. As of a few months ago there were no good steel inserts on the market and I had multiple episodes of insert failure on hard impact. Weakest link, and all that.
Tom,
I was shooting Dryad ACS RC limbs that pulled 50# @ 30". Easton Full Metal Jacket arrows with TuffHead 225-grain broadheads and 75-grain steel inserts for a total arrow weight of 725 grains. Also got a passthrough on a zebra (the only two animals I had time to take during my short hunt).
QuoteOriginally posted by amar911:
Maybe one of these broadhead adapters would work well. I will probably try various makes of them. The adapters from Vantage Archery are the ones I used (and others used too) that regularly bent! Joe buys them, he doesn't produce them, so their lack of strength is definitely not his fault. The ones below have mostly come to market very recently, probably as a result of the poor quality adapters that were available for awhile.
http://www.abowyer.com/abowyer_adapters.html
http://www.tradout.com/stainless-steel-broadhead-adapters-screw-in
http://www.kustomkingarchery.com/Steel-Broadhead-Adapters-Screw-In/productinfo/4406
http://www.bowproshop.com/broadheads--adapters-premium-steel-broadhead-adapters-75gr-100gr-125gr-sold-separately.html
Allan
Thanks for the links. I have heard about folks having poor luck with the steel adaptors as well. I was concerned but didnt know where to go to get any better ones
use vintage archery's--glue in adapters and a 2"aluminum footing if super tough is what you want--joe sells 200 g adapters and 300g target points--screw in adapters are always going to be the weak link!
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/kittitiny/007.jpg)
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/kittitiny/009.jpg)
double alum footing
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/kittitiny/033.jpg)
http://vintagearcheryco.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=27
what about doing away witht the screw-in adaptors and useing the glue-in?
I think Joe got his adapters at kustom king, so unless they have changed or I am mistaken, I would look elsewhere if it were me. That being said, they have great customer service and great products so giving them a call might be a good idea.
pat i'm pretty sure joe has his stuff manufactured
I can't find any adapters on the KK page in the weights I bought from vintage---
http://www.kustomkingarchery.com/Brass-Glue-In-Broadhead-Adapters/productinfo/3425/
My setup is using a titanium adapter that I got from ABower and a footing from Joe.
You are right about the brass ones, Mike. Just not the steel.
very good topic
up
I would like to order some 300 grains tuffheads
but i wait to get more infos about the adapters .
Pascal, try the titanium ones from Abowyer mate...
From data collected , most of the negative performance of these adapters is with arrows exceeding 700 grains which have encountered heavy bone as associated with water buffalo and cape buffalo. It is not commonly reported on deer size animals although I personally experienced the problem after hitting a white tail high in the spine area.
This bending problem is also not just isolated to the adapters used in glue on style broadheads .It is also documented with screw in style broadheads in which the screw post is part of the broadhead. This bending in also not just isolated to adapters made from tool steel but also shows up in aluminum and stainless steel adapters. That brings us to the "Weak Link" which is the screw post its self.
The standard female insert for all arrows aluminum and carbon is a NC 8-32 thread. The standard male thread consist of a threaded section which has a rough diameter of .158 inch or about 5/32 inch. It is almost exclusive in adapter failure to find this 5/32 diameter threaded post bent. There are several suggested solutions to this problem that range from hardened steel, synthetic materials and alloyed steels as material for stronger adapters. All have and will only be methods to strengthen the flimsy 5/32 diameter screw post.
There are options that skirt around the standard adapter and that is a one piece glue in insert adapter combination. These adapters/insert, (one style )can be seen at
http://www.vintagearcheryco.com/shop/. eliminate the post and connection point between arrow and adapter. The strength comes from diameter of the insert .The diameter is only restricted by the arrow size. For example a 5/16 carbon arrow has approximately a .249 inch inside diameter and a 9/32 arrow has an approximate ID of .204 dia. At this date for all big game hunts and until the bending of screw in adapters can be completely solved this is the safest method to potentially eliminate the "weak link".
Titanium is a strong alloy and seems to be everyone's panacea for the problem. Titanium has superior strength compared to it weight. But most grades do not have much more strength than carbon steel. If ones objective is to go light but stronger than aluminum than titanium is a good choice. When shopping for titanium adapters match the grade of the titanium to the game hunted. Most metal charts will show that grade 5 is superior to all others. It is extremely hard to machine the threads in grade 5 and to this date we have not been able to produce a grade 5 adapter that can be produced economically. I am however encouraged as just to day I was put in contact with a machinist that says he can make it. Our proto type will weigh 75 grains. It is solid in the 5 degree taper and the taper is to the max length at 1 inch.
Grade 5 titanium has a yield strength or tensil strength of 120,000 psi this is about twice the strength of mild tool steel and more than two times the yield strength of lower grade titanium
http://www.onlinemetals.com/titaniumguide.cfm
While the adapter/insert combination has had no known failures and is stronger than most other adapters ,or screw on broadheads, it is not as handy as a screw in adapter. However, an archer can solve the problem match with different insert weights and adapter weights so the can replicate the weight of a adapter/insert. Use the screw in set up for practice and the adapter/insert for their hunting arrow. Titanium in the right grade may be a decent alternative.
It is possible that lower grade titanium adapters are strong enough to with stand bending. I have not done any testing nor have I had any reports of titanium adapters of any grade bending. My opinion is just based on steel spec sheets. If there is a superior grade however that is the one I want :)
this set up has worked good so far--its got a glue in adapter with a footing-then a shorter footing [double foot?]to fill the space
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/kittitiny/033.jpg)
Love this stuff...good discussion!
Not sure if it was mentioned in these 3 pages but I'm of the opinion that "longer" BH's impart a greater lateral force on their inserts. The moment of force is greater thereby leveraging the BH adaptor and causing it to bend (the weak link). In particular, I noticed this when shooting Grizzly BH's on cedar shafts, more times than not, they broke cleanly, immediately behind the back of the ferrule.
Just a theory, any others observe this or feel this way?
Kris
that is exactly right kris.
for animals in the buffalo sized class screw in adapters are definately the weakest link in the chain.
glue in/on adapters are the go BUT how do you do it if you use skinny axis shafts like i do? the shank would be the same diameter as the steel screw in adapter hence offering no strength gains.
this is how i'm going to go about it.
for my next buff arrows i want to use the tuffhead on axis shafts. i'm going to make my own custom BH adapters on a lathe. they will have an 11/32" 5 degree taper for the BH to glue onto as normal then it will step down to the inside diameter of a 2020 aluminium shaft since that is what the footings are made from. then they will step down to the inside diameter of the axis shafts. so the adapter gets glued into the shaft then the footing gets glued over the whole lot to the back of the BH. the length of the steps have yet to be determined as this will affect the weight of the adapter and i'm not sure what weight i want yet.
i can make the adapter any weight i want so i'll have a 900gr+ arrow with all the weight at the front.
QuoteOriginally posted by Kris:
Love this stuff...good discussion!
Not sure if it was mentioned in these 3 pages but I'm of the opinion that "longer" BH's impart a greater lateral force on their inserts. The moment of force is greater thereby leveraging the BH adaptor and causing it to bend (the weak link). In particular, I noticed this when shooting Grizzly BH's on cedar shafts, more times than not, they broke cleanly, immediately behind the back of the ferrule.
Just a theory, any others observe this or feel this way?
Kris
kris in my opinion those forces are
another reason for a sturdy footing
and careful tuning to reduce friction while penetrating--and probably a case for higher FOC's which in my opinion reduces the lateral forces imparted by shaft flex on impact
BAMBOO / Mike
Great looking set up with the footings and solid "two in one" adapter/insert and the TuffHead You have done everything one can do to eliminate problems.
Thanks for your input and pictures
QuoteOriginally posted by Al Kidner:
Pascal, try the titanium ones from Abowyer mate...
Hello
Thank you for the info :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Posted by Joe Furlong of Tuffhead at this thread http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=127914
Allan,
Finally got the grade five titanium adaptor perfected and in production. The grade five titanium has almost 2.5x the tensile strength as the low carbon steel used in the commercial steel adaptor. Testing has real good results. They were actually used on Buff's elephant hunt with no bending detected. Expensive but worth every penny on dangerous game. They weigh 75 grains but are actually the approximate size of a steel 125 grain. They fit clear up the 5 degree taper on all standard broadheads. A picture is up on the "Shop" section of www.tuffhead.com (http://www.tuffhead.com) . If an adaptor can be termed beautiful, this one would fall into that category.
Hopefully this will solve the problems with the weak link.
--------------------
Joe Furlong
http://www.tuffhead.com/
Joe sent me the titanium adapters for my elephant hunt.
I hit a rib going in and put a slight curve in the first inch or so of the head. No damage to the adaptor at all.
That is a 85 pound bow slamming. 1100 grain arrow into a elephant rib.
I think you can safely say he has it figured out (http://buffsblackwidow.com/images/DSCN1168.JPG)
I am very interested in the bending adapter problem as well.
For the record, tensile strength is defined as the stretching force required to break an object. (The opposite is compression force that resists being crushed). Think of a "tug of war" game. Tensile strength of adapter never was the problem nor will it prevent bending failure within normal limits. :campfire:
We need a material that greatly improves the bending resistance(moment) without becoming brittle and breaking. Possibly titanium is this material, however it is very light and it would be nice to gain FOC with a heavy material as well.
I have always thought we need a reverse thought process so that the BH insert would glue into the shaft for maximum diameter and then this solid male threaded adapter would thread directly into a female threaded BH or FP. The length would determine weight.
I am afraid to think of what the cost would be for the machine work to build this adapter and also retool/machine a BH design. Any guesses for final cost Joe?
Don't get all excited guys I am just kicking the tires on a rainy day.
The entire Elephant deal is IMPRESSIVE!
They are my broadhead of choice for this fall also.
They fly great, are exceptionally well made, and they sharpen very easily. Do yourself a favor, order the sharpening accessories that Joe sells. Awesome.
STALKIN4ELK
Jim ,your have a point about compression although I am not sure what the action or reaction is that bends the threaded section of the adapter. Could be some of both compression and stretch. I have not been able to pin point exactly what happens right before bending. For lack of solutions I am just trying to strengthen the "weak link".
There are not tables readably available for compression as there is tensile strength.
The following quote is the reasoning for quoting "Tensile Strength" when comparing metals.
"For most structural materials , the difficulty in finding compressive strength can be overcome by substituting the tensile strength value for compressive strength. This substitution is a safe assumption since the nominal compression strength is always greater than the nominal tensile strength"
file:///Users/josephfulong/Documents/Material%20Strength%20-%20Strength%20(%20Mechanics%20)%20of%20Materials%20-%20Engineers%20Edge.webarchive
In other words if Titanium has a higher tensile strength than low carbon steel or any material that you are comparing it to it is also stronger in compression
Thanks for bringing up the question the more input we get the better ..........We all share this problem no matter what broad head we shoot no broadhead or hunter is exempt :)
Steel will stretch, but for all practical purposes, you really can't compress steel, except to bulge it out like a rivet. Any non-torsional metal failure I've seen has been on the tension side. If an adapter fails, it will be at the head to shaft joint, and the failure will be stretching of the metal on the outside of the bend. Stretch it far enough to exceed the elastic limit and it will break. I'm not an engineer, but I don't believe it will make much difference which direction the joint screws together. The limiting factors are going to be the tensile strength and diameter of the insert shank. A larger OD at the shaft to head mating surface will increase strength of the joint also.
Thanks for the feedback guys. It's frustrating to have such great quality shafts and broadheads only to have a darned adapter cause problems.
I really think.... No really I do sometimes
That when a adaptor bends, it is because the broad head has stopped and the arrow is trying to pass.
I shot a impala last year and the arrow stuck in the off side shoulder. I was watching the video frame by frame on the camera. There was a moment when the head stopped and the arrow looked like a snake.
BUFF I have seen pictures of that also taken with high speed cameras. When the arrow comes to a abrupt stop the arrow goes through a paradox similar to when it leaves the bow.It could be the momentum of the shaft causes the bending. Like you say the broadhead is stopped and the arrow is still going. This might explain why the bending is observed more in heavy arrows.
I know one thing... I am as keen as to send one of these BHs through a critter!
My BHs turned up here the other week and I am more then impressed with the quality and attention to detail in a simple BH.
Africa in August... Here I come. Armed with Tuffheads!
ak.
I have a small sample of steel inserts that I am playing with heat treating. It will take a few weeks before I know anything but I'll be sure to share any results.
Bill
Great discussion guys!
Go get 'em Al!
QuoteOriginally posted by vintage archer:
BUFF I have seen pictures of that also taken with high speed cameras. When the arrow comes to a abrupt stop the arrow goes through a paradox similar to when it leaves the bow.It could be the momentum of the shaft causes the bending. Like you say the broadhead is stopped and the arrow is still going. This might explain why the bending is observed more in heavy arrows.
Makes perfect sense to me.