Trying to get more consistent wood shafts in order to obtain better flight. Most suppliers sell shafts in ranges such as 45-50, 50-55, etc...
What if I only want shafts around 53#? Will any suppliers sell a dozen shafts spined at lets say 52-54#?
You can likely get anything you want to pay extra for. Try a smaller shop rather than a large one like 3R. I find I get better service when the owner is the one who answers the phone.
But I can't see this tighter range making much difference. I've seen very few people who shoot well enough to take advantage of sorting like this. But, heck, if it makes you feel better have at it.
Guy
Yes, but it is gonna cost you. I think you are WAY over thinking things. It's good your getting involved, and the best part is you can do all the tinkering you want.
Some guys deal in thousandths of an inch. As for me, as long as I'm on the correct construction site, I'm doing good.
I agree with Guy. I haven't seen anyone yet who can shoot the difference in a few pounds of spine, and I've been at this for more than 50 years.
If you want to match your arrows very closely, you need your own spine tester and grain scale, because what you order isn't necessarily what you get. I've had spines range more than 20# in a dozen that were supposed to be sorted to within 5# of spine. I've found even larger discrepancies in weight, up to 40-50 grains difference in shafts that were supposed to be weighed within plus or minus 10 grains. The only way to know what you're shooting is to weigh and spine it yourself.
I make arrows for guys that are national champs in their country. They receive arrows that are in 5# spine groups and win! I spoke with a man yesterday that beat the whole field of carbon and aluminum shooters with my wood arrows. Sometimes it is easier to blame the equipment than ourselves....
What David(snag) said! If one guy know about wood arrows, that is him! If you want tight tolerances shoot carbon... But then again, what is the point to shoot a trad stick if you don't shoot wood??
Cheers
It is my experience that arrow weight plays a bigger role then spine-value. When you are within the 5 lbs, you're okay. I have a digital grain scale to weight and match my arrows in weight.
If you want what you are looking for, try Rod Kelley at 406 756 5885.
I wanted matched spine and grain weight shafts and he supplied them to me with a list of each shafts weight and spine.
I do not doubt that wood can be as accurate as carbon and aluminum, that is why I started this thread. I have been shooting alot of 20 yd indoor target this winter and am able to shoot my carbons much tighter than the wood shafts that I am currently using. I have spined my own shafts to within a pound, and I do notice that a 50# spine shaft may not fly as well as a 54# shaft. I have also noticed that grain straightness is a key factor. Some good info so far, keep it coming, and thanks.
If it'll boost your confidence, it might be worth it.
Frankly, its not the spine grouping...its the spine.
I read one of your other posts, 50-55# arrows at over 29" are realy 45-50's and less than that with a 145g pt. Your shooting a 46# center shot bow with a FF string. They are too weak.
Did you ever shorten the arrows to 28" as suggested?
Did you move your knock point up when you went from carbon to wood?
I'd be getting a test kit from Surewood and find the spine that works for you.
As said above, there are folks that shoot way better than most of us that do just fine with a 5# spine group.
Eric
What Rick said about Rod Kelley. he will select tighter spine ranges for you although personally 5 lbs. works for me. Rod has a Traditional Archery Shop out of his home and has been crafting arrows for a long time. Another thing about him is that when he tells you he has "nice Cedar", it's REALLY nice. I've been shooting it awhile and have more shafts on the way now.
What Rick said about Rod Kelley. he will select tighter spine ranges for you although personally 5 lbs. works for me. Rod has a Traditional Archery Shop out of his home and has been crafting arrows for a long time. Another thing about him is that when he tells you he has "nice Cedar", it's REALLY nice. I've been shooting it awhile and have more shafts on the way now.
A test pack is the way to go. You'll save yourself a bunch of trouble and $$$ in the long run. I shoot a 56# bow with FF string drawn to 29.5". I need 80-85# shafts to get decent flight with a 125grn head. I never would have figured on a spine that high without a test pack...
Then theres always the option to buy alot of shafts, and spine them all by hand, and weigh them and group them.
I'm on board with Gringol though too, You should really test for spine with a test pack or something.
The other thing I've done with some success is use a carbon arrow to tune the spine by adding tip weight or shortening etc. then putting the info into the stu miller calculator to get the dynamic spine number for the tuned arrow.
Then I can basically work up any shaft/tip combo which yields the same dynamic spine (again using the calculator) and I know it will at least be very close if not dead on.
If you want to be that accurate you need to pick a deflection value on a particular spine tester. Not all spine testers read the exact same as weight related to deflection. All of them should be equal as .520 equals 50# but as you move out they are not all the same. Deflection is a more accurate measurement and if you alway use the same spine tester then all is the same.
If you want accuracy to the # and gn, you need to accumulate hundreds of shafts and grade them yourself if you really want to the # accuracy. Then put them on the tester yourself. It is easy to do, and you need a lot of shafts.
I have a ton of cedar stashed away mostly in the 70# up category-all 11/32, and I can pick whatever I want. Having said that they work just fine in a 5# range and I generally select within 10 gns just because I can. :archer2:
If I may add a little twist to the topic - I'm content shooting within 5#, but finding my Ace 101 typically reads right around 5# less than what I've ordered. This is true across four separate sets, from four very highly regarded sponsors here. All doug fir. Doesn't seem likely they're all marked incorrectly.
Am I using the spine tester wrong (called Ace a couple times for advice, using as recommended ), or is there something else going on that explains the issue?
I have always noticed with wood several arrows from a dozen seem to group better and it usually goes back to weight and deflection being closer between them and others in that same dozen.
Correct me if I'm wrong but for instance in a typical say 55-60# range there would be up to a .050" deflection differance and it be acceptable. Maybe even greater in some weight groups! That's like the differance between a 2018 and 2117 aluminum shaft within the same dozen.
I think many shooters and or bows would notice that much wouldn't they?
Tony - If you really want to go to the time, trouble and money, I am
sure we here at Surewood Shafts could match up shafts as close as you want. We have never been asked to do this before, but like I said, it certainly is possible. We would need to work up a special price based on how close you want the shafts to match in both spine and mass weight. Then again, you just might want to take Snag's advise...totally up to you. Surewood Bob
Any shooter shooting the 6# spine variances commonly offered would notice a much better grouping with a tightly matched set. How can anyone expect to accurate if their arrows aren't matched? Tommy at RMS Gear will sell arrows of much tighter tolerances for about the same price as any other seller who doesn't match their arrows.
Well Tony,Youve had Mike Vines ,Snag,Surewood Bob,Bjorn and others cover this one.These guys have collectively done it all with wood arrows and are the best of the best when it comes to arrows.Find your spine range,and order some surewoods.They are awesome shafts.
Have you ever spined carbon shafts??? I found differences as big as 7 lbs on a .500 carbon shaft batch.....
Thanks for all the input. Part of starting this thread was to see how many guys shoot tighter spine groups. I hear some guys who spine them and match em up within the set, and others that just shoot em and if there's a wild one they cast it aside. I've been shooting the Surewoods and a few others but so far the Surewoods are the straightest, and are all accurately spined and weight matched. My current 6 Surewoods that I'm shooting are matched within 6g of weight. I've been retuning my set up and have one set of 3 Surewoods flying like darts! It just seems that tuning wood shafts takes a little more time and care, which is part of the fun!
With paper tuning, I have found that 3 pound spine groups will produce bullet holes and outside of that I can start to see left/right tears at 6 feet. Fletching straightens things up pretty quick. When building arrows I keep my spines as close as possible, but always within a true 5 lb group, ie 65-69 lb. Paul Jalon at Elite Arrows typically sells his arrows in 3 lb spine groups. It takes a BUNCH of shafts to group them that close for spine and 10 grains weight, esp with fir. Fir can vary over 150 grains in a given spine.
You can certainly get them if you are willing to pay for them. My two cents....I have an old friend who won the World Longbow Shoot I witnessed most of it and the shoot off. He had a plastic kid quiver with 4 ramin wood dowels for arrows. That said it is nice to have good matched arrows but acurracy is in the archer. I have watched many many shooters in the last 30 years and the best ones I have seen never never blamed equipment actually the best ones usually had terrible equipment. But they were great shots with poorly spined arrows.
FWIW,
I got a 1/2 doz test kit from magnus of Turkey Flight Traditional. The test kit was made up 29" BOP, 125gr heads, and 4" shield fletching spined 40, 44, 46, 49, 53, 55.
The 49# flew the best from my Dave Johnson longbow. With the 46 and 53 I saw different flight and arrow wobble after many shots downrange. The 49# was spot on. I PM'd Matt and asked him to make me a 1/2 doz of his poplar shaft arrows spined 48-50 range. He made them up all spined at 49. The arrows arrived and I put 125gr Magnus 2 blades on them and went to the BH target. Flight was near perfect. I switched the arrow on the string to cock feather in and now they fly perfectly.
I am not a great shooter, but I am picky about an arrow's flight from the bow that has no wobble. Magnus at Turkey Flight Traditional gave me those arrows.
Thanks Matt.
Try barrelled shafts for target shooting and watch the difference.
buy them by the hundred and spine them yourself.Wood arrows spine in 5 # groups, carbon in 20# also consider what kind of wood you are using and ,try 4 fletch, they stabilize faster, burn your own feathers, develope a feather shape.You want a good arrow look at the whole arrow.Or try some of mine !
QuoteOriginally posted by UrbanDeerSlayer:
Trying to get more consistent wood shafts in order to obtain better flight. Most suppliers sell shafts in ranges such as 45-50, 50-55, etc...
What if I only want shafts around 53#? Will any suppliers sell a dozen shafts spined at lets say 52-54#?
go here: RMS (https://www.rmsgear.com/store/pc/index_new.asp) and inquire by phone. The carry 11/32 compressed cedar and typically group them very close both weight and spine wise. They would probably be happy to put a set together that exactly meets your specs.
Really great people to do business with! :thumbsup:
i'm no master like some of these guys but something to check, be sure your nock orientation is the same for each shaft as well, that being a little off,will effectively change the shafts spine
go here: RMS (https://www.rmsgear.com/store/pc/index_new.asp) and inquire by phone. The carry 11/32 compressed cedar and typically group them very close both weight and spine wise. They would probably be happy to put a set together that exactly meets your specs.
Really great people to do business with! :thumbsup: [/QB][/QUOTE]
According to their website they spine them in 3# ranges, example 50-52#, and closely weight match. But they don't list types of shafts or supply, so a phone call is in order. Thanks
QuoteOriginally posted by Dave Lay:
i'm no master like some of these guys but something to check, be sure your nock orientation is the same for each shaft as well, that being a little off,will effectively change the shafts spine
Thanks. I checked that and one shaft's nock was glued on at a very slight angle so I fixed it. And another I rotated slightly. Both shafts are flying much better.
Really good info! A little to tight of tolerance to me but it is a lot of good info for sure!