Last fall I purchased a 64", 40@28, A&H ACS as an incentive to "stick to it" and work hard towards healing after a rotator surgery. Along with that, after decades of shooting nothing but Black Widow MA recurves, I wanted to try something totally new.
It's an absolutely beautiful bow and I've gotten to the point where I can easily draw it back now and I've been working hard at getting used to the "longbow thing" past few weeks. Yet, as unbelievably smooth and nice shooting as it is, I am really struggling. :( I've reviewed my arrow/tip choice with several knowledgeable people and I seem to be in the ball park with that but I am consistently hitting high and right no matter what I am do. While I'm only shooting at about 8-9 yards in the basement, arrow flight seems beautiful.
I've tried a Bear Weatherest, the little white Hoyt rest, off the shelf. I've moved the brace in and out, I've moved the nocking point up and down which all results in little variations but I am almost always high and right. In frustration, I'll grab one of my old Widow MA's off the rack and I'll absolutely funnel arrows into my target exactly where I want them. :banghead:
I know that while trying to "train my brain" with that longbow, grabbing a recurve off the rack might not be the right thing to do but ... uuuggghhh ... FRUSTRATING!!! :banghead: :dunno:
It won't be long and that beautiful ACS might show up on the classifieds. :p
Any advice?
Have you tried canting your bow more? It sounds like you are used to shooting your recurves straight up and down and the longbow isn't cooperating
If worst comes to worst and you still want to shoot it, just consciously move your arrow down and to the left a bit, especially if your consistently hitting top right with good flight
Don't feel bad, after getting a Centaur and Kota off classifieds which both were just awesome bows, I realized I just shoot better with more mass in my hand so I'm a recurve guy. I just could not be as rock steady with those lightweight bows.
QuoteOriginally posted by C.Cannon:
Have you tried canting your bow more? It sounds like you are used to shooting your recurves straight up and down and the longbow isn't cooperating.
I think I am actually canting a little bit more in order to get that arrow lined up right under my eye. The sight window is pretty big with that Widow and I maybe unconsciously canting a little more with that ACS in order to open it up a bit??? :dunno:
Nothing wrong with being a recurve guy. Nothing at all. Hope you heal well.
Nothing wrong with being a recurve guy. Nothing at all. Hope you heal well.
Don't be shy about it, there are a lot of us guys out there.
Just went back to recurves myself after several yrs. of trying to change over to longbows.
QuoteOriginally posted by BuckeyeGuy:
Don't feel bad, after getting a Centaur and Kota off classifieds which both were just awesome bows, I realized I just shoot better with more mass in my hand so I'm a recurve guy. I just could not be as rock steady with those lightweight bows.
Yup, the Widow seems very solid, yet, I'm not ready to give up yet.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rifle River Scout:
Don't be shy about it, there are a lot of us guys out there.
Just went back to recurves myself after several yrs. of trying to change over to longbows.
Yup, I just wanted to try something new. It's a little frustrating to say the least.
QuoteOriginally posted by Blueridge:
Nothing wrong with being a recurve guy. Nothing at all. Hope you heal well.
Thanks ... it's been going terrific. While it was rough the first couple of weeks, I could kick myself for not having had it done sooner. It's great to be pain free! :)
Im strictly recurve!
I like them both. But I also shoot the curves a bit better.
You can cant to a point that spine becomes an issue. At the distance of 8-9 yards you have good flight but try going out to 20+ yards and see what you get. The short distance might mask some arrow flight issues. Just speaking from experience.
Good luck with your shoulder and I admire you not giving up yet! Like said above nothing wrong with being a recurve guy!!!
I had both my cuffs done 10 years or so . I was able to hunt with my MAIIIi 60 @28 after about 6 months.
No problem since , shoulders feel great.
Just be patient.
I would guess it is a tuning issue.
Best advice I can give ya: sell that ACS for a nice price to me!
QuoteOriginally posted by Flying Dutchman:
Best advice I can give ya: sell that ACS for a nice price to me!
We'll see. :D
Ibow: no reason your arrows should go where they're going if they're well tuned to the bow. What are you shooting? Keep in mind that the ACS is cut well past center. It's often necessary to build out the side plate and shoot much higher spine than you normally would.
QuoteOriginally posted by Orion:
Ibow: no reason your arrows should go where they're going if they're well tuned to the bow. What are you shooting? Keep in mind that the ACS is cut well past center. It's often necessary to build out the side plate and shoot much higher spine than you normally would.
Orion – I thought I had kind of done that while experimenting earlier with that Bear Weatherest and the Hoyt rest as well and while it raised it off the shelf, it did bring that side plate out a bit to. I've since just gone back to shooting off the shelf with a little bit of calf hair on the shelf and side plate. Totally confused. :confused:
I shoot broadheads exclusively (even for practice) and after getting advice from a couple of guys I did indeed go with a little stiffer spine than called for with 2016's. It's a 29" arrow and to stiffen it even more, I've been shooting 125 gr Zwickey Eskimos. I normally shoot 135 Deltas. I draw a full 28".
Again, the flight at 8-9 yards seems very good but I know it's not very far.
What do you think?
I'm with you Ibow. I've shot recurves for 20+ years and I've given longbows plenty of opportunity. I've got a Shrew, a Kanati, a Thunderstick Mag....I can shoot em well enough to hit a barn door and that's about it. They're like a Siren that calls to me only to dissappear into the mist when I try to shoot em.
So I always end up going back to my Widows.
Arrow flight at close range is very hard to see and what looks to be great flight might very well be off some. My suggestion would be to first check the tuning by shooting thru paper from 6-10 FEET. It won't take but an arrow or two to tell if your tuning is on or not. Sure is quicker and easier than tuning by the shotgun method.
Screw in some field points and shot just for the fun of it. See what happens.
What grip is your ACS, it maybe just the way you are holding at the moment of release. If grips are similar I can go back and forth recurve to longbow and it's not much of an issue......I don't do a high wrist well!
All advise above is good advice.I too have struggled with some long bows/self bows over the years and wasnt as accurate/consistant as with some of my recurves.I may be stating the obvious here,but have found that it the bow must fit my bow hand first and foremost.Then,even some of my very close to center shot longbows were consistantly more finicky to arrow spine than my recurves.
So,Im in agreement with Ron W and also with what Magnus and Fletcher said as well.Hang in there,you can always turn that ACS into a down payment on a new lower poundage Widow.
Ibow: I missed the reference to the Bear weather rest. That should have straightened the arrows out if they were close to begin with.
Are you saying the 2016s seem to be shooting clean and impacting where you want them to, or are they still going high and right? At 60# static spine, the 2016s should be heavy enough for your set up.
I have several 64-inch ACSs from 50# through 56# at my 28-inch draw. Easton Axis .400s (about 80# spine) shoot well out of all of them with 250 up front. Gold Tip 35-55s (about 60# static spine) shoot well out of my 50# bow, but are too light for 52# and up at my draw length.
Ron W raises a good point. The standard grip on an ACS is very close to a medium recurve grip. It is a rather small grip, though, and you could be torquing the bow as you grip and/or draw it.
Also, the arrow may just align differently vis-a-vis your eye with the ACS vs your Widow. I.e., you may be holding your bow hand in the same place, but that hold may move the ACS riser/arrow more to the right, and even higher, than the Widow with the same grip/hold. That little difference is one that a lot of folks find hard to get used to as they switch from one bow to another, particularly recurve to longbow or vice-versa. Your brain is placing your bow hand in the right place, at least where it's always placed it, but that is no longer the right place for the way the second bow is cut.
Try this, next time you draw on the target, look down the arrow and see where it's pointing. There's a good chance you're unknowingly pointing it right and probably high of the target.
Of course, there could also be something in your style that's throwing off the arrows. For me, a right high hit is usually associated with a pluck. When I pluck, I seem to also push the bow a little at release. Keep at it. It will come around. Good luck.
Of course, if your 2016s are not only flying straight, but also hitting where you're aiming, you've already solved the problem.
Keep tuning and give it more time. Try paper and also try some longer shots for sure.
I am tired of messing with longbows myself, even though I just bought another. Recurves for me
QuoteOriginally posted by nineworlds9:
Keep tuning and give it more time. Try paper and also try some longer shots for sure.
x2
When I'm hitting high and right, I aim lower and left.
:)
Seriously, try raising your nock point a little and go with a lighter tip.
Interesting topic. Ibow I know you are shooting very short distances but how are your groups? I reread the post and hope I didn't miss this.
QuoteOriginally posted by Orion:
Ibow:
Are you saying the 2016s seem to be shooting clean and impacting where you want them to, or are they still going high and right? At 60# static spine, the 2016s should be heavy enough for your set up.
Ron W raises a good point. The standard grip on an ACS is very close to a medium recurve grip. It is a rather small grip, though, and you could be torquing the bow as you grip and/or draw it.
Also, the arrow may just align differently vis-a-vis your eye with the ACS vs your Widow. I.e., you may be holding your bow hand in the same place, but that hold may move the ACS riser/arrow more to the right, and even higher, than the Widow with the same grip/hold. That little difference is one that a lot of folks find hard to get used to as they switch from one bow to another, particularly recurve to longbow or vice-versa. Your brain is placing your bow hand in the right place, at least where it's always placed it, but that is no longer the right place for the way the second bow is cut.
Try this, next time you draw on the target, look down the arrow and see where it's pointing. There's a good chance you're unknowingly pointing it right and probably high of the target.
Orion - yes, those 2016's seem to be flying very clean from the bow and they also have been grouping very well but they all seem to be about 2-3" right and 2-3" high from the spot I am aiming at.
There may very well be something to your thoughts re hand to eye in going from the Widow MA's to the ACS. It's indeed different.
The riser is a standard cut ... below is a pict of the riser.
Thanks so much for your well thought out suggestions and advice ... much appreciated. I'll keep them in mind the next time I shoot. I'm a little frustrated but not ready to quit. :)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v75/Ibow1/image.jpg)
QuoteOriginally posted by Gordon Jabben:
Interesting topic. Ibow I know you are shooting very short distances but how are your groups? I reread the post and hope I didn't miss this.
Groups have been good ... just good n' right/high. :D
Have you tried lowering your brace hight a little at a time and it should pull your arrows back to center.
Yeap I'm a recurve man myself. LOVE the looks of those longbows and how well they shoot just not well for me. Like a good buddy always called them "wrong bows". I envy those who shoot them but to honest I'm just a recurve man. lol
QuoteOriginally posted by The Whittler:
Have you tried lowering your brace hight a little at a time and it should pull your arrows back to center.
Yeah, I've had it as low as 6" which is quite a bit out of range.
About the only thing I haven't messed with is point weight... I may experiment a bit with that.
Thanks.
It's funny how bows differ for people. The last 3 piece ACS I shot, I had to intentionally not hit the arrows I had already shot. It was that accurate for me. Not that I'm a great shot, but that bow sure did make me look good for once!
Good luck and shoot what works for you. I have been shooting a recurve for 5 years now.
God bless,
Charlie
QuoteOriginally posted by buckeye_hunter:
It's funny how bows differ for people. The last 3 piece ACS I shot, I had to intentionally not hit the arrows I had already shot. It was that accurate for me. Not that I'm a great shot, but that bow sure did make me look good for once!
Good luck and shoot what works for you. I have been shooting a recurve for 5 years now.
God bless,
Charlie
Yup, I don't know. Especially frustrating when I'll grab that Widow for a second and clang arrows together.
I'll keep at it for a while but with turkey season closing in, I'll have to figure things out pretty quick! :)
I guess I have always thought different bows just hit different depending on how centershot they were and how they were tillered and the archer had to make the adjustment to where they grouped. Like someone else said "aim lower and to the left". LOL Ibow, I hope it doesn't sound like I'm making fun here, I'm really not and I'm interested in your outcome with your new bow. I know I have a new bow that shoots higher and a little to the right for me compared to my old bow but now after shooting it about everyday for three weeks, I'm hitting pretty well with it.
QuoteOriginally posted by Gordon Jabben:
I guess I have always thought different bows just hit different depending on how centershot they were and how they were tillered and the archer had to make the adjustment to where they grouped. Like someone else said "aim lower and to the left". LOL Ibow, I hope it doesn't sound like I'm making fun here, I'm really not and I'm interested in your outcome with your new bow.
Not at all. I think you're right. It's frustrating yet kind of fun trying something new. ;)
I've been shooting those Widow MA's for many, many years and this is a whole new ball game. I'm pretty certain it's the centershot thing as Orion eluded to above with his reference to the difference in hand/eye between the two bows.
I've owned nearly a zillion different bows. I could get every one of them to shoot good groups, but not every one of them shot where I was looking. Now if I shot them long enough, my brain would adjust, but that doesn't work so well when you have more than one bow at a time. So for me, no matter how nice a bow it is, if it doesn't shoot where I'm looking from the start...down the road it goes.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ibow:
QuoteOriginally posted by C.Cannon:
Have you tried canting your bow more? It sounds like you are used to shooting your recurves straight up and down and the longbow isn't cooperating.
I think I am actually canting a little bit more in order to get that arrow lined up right under my eye. The sight window is pretty big with that Widow and I maybe unconsciously canting a little more with that ACS in order to open it up a bit??? :dunno: [/b]
I'm sorry but canting more does not fix your problem. You should be able to shoot the bow the same no matter what angle it is at. I shoot recurves and have the same issue wi longbows. It takes time and adjusting to shoot them the same.
Just curious what is your string material? How many strands? Is the serving tight on the nocks?
Loose? Have you changed strings?
There are a lot of longbows that are really recurve a with straight limbs (GFA's description). Shouldn't aim any different just because it has straight tips. Those grips are designed with a certain grip, heel down, high wrist, etc I think. Make sure it's being shot right.
X2 what Larry said. Some bows just don't shoot where you look. The bow may be perfectly tuned but unless you shoot it exclusively for years like you have the Widow, it won't be ingrained on that is where you need to hold. I figured that out thru trades on the classifieds. Shot a lot of great bows, with nothing wrong with the bow, just didn't shoot where I looked. Nothing wrong with being a recurve guy either....
Mine is 62" 39# my brace is 7and 1/4" my nocking point is 7/8" d10 6 strand string from A&H. my arrows are 2013 they are 30and 3/4" from end of the nock to end of arrow with a 150grn point. I shoot three under.and I draw about 28.5" If you can back up alittle and shoot your bare shaft.
Thanks for all the suggestions and advice. I'll keep messing with it for a while yet. Thanks again! :thumbsup:
Well, those are two VERY different bows...kinda like a Corvette and a 3500 pickup; both have 350 engine but don't handle the same.
I'd set your video camera up and shoot a few shots with both and compare what you see. I'd bet there is something there.
I'd also see how both bows shoot arrows thru paper and compare.
That's a good analogy Steve. :D
How far above level is your nocking point?
[/QUOTE]I'm sorry but canting more does not fix your problem. You should be able to shoot the bow the same no matter what angle it is at. I shoot recurves and have the same issue wi longbows. It takes time and adjusting to shoot them the same. [/QB][/QUOTE]
I don't know about that. It's my limited experience that certain bows don't shoot right without the right canting of the limbs especially shooting at an angle. I've heard others say similar things. (The difference is very apparent with shooting between Hill styles and extreme R/D bows, they shoot the same accuracy but the canting is diffrent... for me at least)
Any idea why the change if not the canting of the bow?
QuoteOriginally posted by Tooner:
How far above level is your nocking point?
5/8"
BTW, we just went past your house on the way to Great Wolf w/ the kids. We have 3 times the snow you do. :p
QuoteOriginally posted by Ibow:
BTW, we just went past your house on the way to Great Wolf w/ the kids. We have 3 times the snow you do. :p
Do you know me?
Is there a Great Wolf in Dearborn?
Anyway, try another eighth or quarter higher...it might just take care of your elevation problem. As to the windage problem, I'm guessing your arrows are too weak.
Try a 500 carbon and that ACS will sing. It will make you say Black who? Widow what?
What is your draw length, your arrow length, and your point weight.
I have a Dryad Orion ACS RC recurve rated at 40#. I did a force draw curve on it and at 28" it only registers 39#. It out shoots two other bows I have that test out 48# at 28", and requires a heavier spined arrow.
After reading this thread I grabbed a 2016 32" length with a 145rg. point and shot it through my bow. The the tail kicks out to the left so far it was clearly visible in flight.
You cannot spine arrows for ACS bows based on standard spine charts. They shoot like a bow 10 lbs heavier.
In my very limited experience, I`ve had a similar issue. I have built two bows,a longbow and a recurve. Both are around 30#. When I finished the longbow, I had a hell of a time tuning it to shoot straight. It is cut 1/8" past center. I had good grouping, with the occasional flyer, but it just didn`t shoot straight. Tried many things with arrows and arrow rest: sometimes it was better, sometimes worse, but never good. I decided to make another bow, this time a recurve. What do you know? Same issues! That clued me in: the arrows were waaayyy too stiff and were hitting the shelf: XX75 2016 w/ 100gr field points, cut to 28". I then purchased a few weaker arrows (1816 and 1616), and several different point weigths, and found a good working setup. I solved the issue on both bows, but my recurve still needs softer arrows than the recurve, even being 2# stronger (31# vs 29#). So, it really depends on the bow, and probably shooter`s form...but, if your groups are good, you CAN get there...it is just a matter of trying farther away from your usual arrow parameters, and testing methodically. Just my opinion, of course, and, being the newbie that I am, it is probably not worth much anyway, but, if you like the bow, keep thinking about what you can do, and keep testing, and you will get there.
Good luck.
DF
ERRATA: I should have written "...my longbow still needs softer arrows than the recurve..."
Sorry for the mess-up. Fingers too quick for the brain...
DF
Retnuh, dfrois, others,
Thanks for your suggestions and advice. I've got a little work to do in sorting things out. From what I'm gathering, I may well be a little under spined and overall, it may just plain take a little work to get there.
After a rotator surgery on 12-12-12, my goal was to be shooting and out there the last week of April for turkey season. Between strengthening that arm/shoulder and trying to "get it" with a new bow, I may be running out of time a little bit. My plan for now is just to stick with the tried and true - the ol' Widow MA for this spring (which I am shooting very well) and then once turkey season is done and the weather breaks a bit here in MI and I've got some time on my side, I'll start over with that ACS. I'm certainly not going to give up. :)
Thanks to all who offered insight/suggestions - very much appreciated! :wavey:
No one has suggested having someone else shoot your bow, someone who is a good shot. If it shoots the same for him you have a tuning, arrow, or set up problem.